Hamas promises full cease-fire if Israel helps end boycott of PA gov't

[bemildred]

If Israel agrees to persuade the international community not to boycott the new Palestinian unity government, the Palestinians "will offer a promise from Hamas and Fatah of a total cease-fire with Israel, including a complete halt to Qassam fire and suicide bombings," a senior Hamas official told Haaretz yesterday.

Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas plans to deliver this offer at his upcoming meeting with Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, Palestinian sources said. The meeting is tentatively scheduled for Sunday, thought according to the Palestinians, the date has not yet been finalized.

However, the Hamas official warned, if Israel presses for a continuation of the international boycott and refuses to work with the unity government, the existing partial cease-fire will be in danger.

Olmert, however, plans to use the meeting to urge Abbas to ensure that the new government, which is currently being formed, accepts the Quartet's conditions: recognizing Israel, renouncing violence and honoring previous Israeli-Palestinian agreements.

See, this is a negotiation, carried on in the press. It is interesting that Hamas and Fatah seem to be asserting that they CAN stop the rockets and the other stuff. I am skeptical about that myself.

Haaretz

[Hunky Dunky]

1. So basically Hamas is saying

that they are capable of stopping innocent people from getting killed, but will only do it under certain conditions. If they have the ability to prevent innocent death, why wait?

If you or I had the ability to prevent innocent deaths, would we hestitate to do it? I know I wouldn't.

[bemildred]

2. So, have you heard that people in Gaza are starving?

What do you think Olmert ought to do about that? If you will agree that Olmert ought to see that those people in Gaza do not starve, and are allowed to lead decent lives, as best they can, then I will certainly agree that Hamas ought to do all it can to stop the rockets and other attacks. But I'm not willing to just bash Hamas while letting the deliberate starvation of people in Gaza, to punish them for electing Hamas, go un-noticed.

[Hunky Dunky]

3. Of course I heard that those poor people are starving

And it is terrible and something should be done about it. But, that really has nothing to do with the comment I made, nor with Hamas' ability to prevent innocent death, which apparently is a conditional issue for them. How evil is that?! Hamas has basically been in charge of, or at the very least, underwritten the existence of those who would PURPOSELY take innocent lives, and now they use the potential cessation of those acts as some sort of a bargaining chip. That's fucking sick!

[msmcghee]

4. Damned right it's sick!

Especially when it is the election of Hamas and the resultant firing of rockets into Israel under Hamas' aegis that has created the need to carefully monitor the Gaza borders to prevent more explosives and rocket-making materials from entering the territory.

[breakaleg]

5. I just don't see how what Israel does is any different.

They kill innocent civilians. Some times, even when they sleep. Israel is just as culpable to what is happening in Gaza as Hamas.

[Itay]

6. ???

about 70% of all those "innocent civilians" voted for Hamas, or actually voted to destroy the state of Israel.
and besides, isn't it reasonable that Israel will protect it's citizens even in the cost of dead palestinians? UK didn't do anything different in WWII.
and no - there's no way israel can defend itself without completely closing the borders. even now lots of weapons are being smuggled.

and another thing regarding Hamas offer:
in the previous times they stated they are willing for a cease fire for "even 20 years" - i doubt this time is any different.

[sabbat hunter]

7. most votes for hamas

probably were from people who were fustrated with Fatah's corruption and inability to deliver social services, which hamas did.

[msmcghee]

12. Others have mentioned this.

What that says is that the Palestinians had to choose between a corrupt regime - or supporting the destruction of Israel and the dismal consequences of that course - which they are now experiencing.

In a democracy when the choices are all bad ones - any citizen or group is free to start another party and run for office. That's the point of a democracy.

Either Gaza is a democracy or not.

If it is, they made their choice freely and now must live with it. i.e. they did not come forward with a corruption-free candidate or party that wanted to live in peace with Israel because I guess it was not a priority with them. Or, perhaps the idea of the destruction of Israel appealed to them. For whatever reasons they freely elected the proud murderers of Israeli civilians to run their state for them.

If it is not a democracy, then Israel can hardly be blamed for defending itself from attack from an undemocratically established regime that proudly states in its charter that its raison d'être is to destroy Israel.

[Violet_Crumble]

25. Sabbat Hunter just told you why Palestinians voted for Hamas...

They did NOT vote supporting the destruction of Israel but as Sabbat Hunter said because they were reacting to the corruption of Fatah and its inability to provide social services....

[Tom Joad]

8. civilians are civilians, no matter how they vote, war crimes apply

when they are targeted for harm....
either by a suicide bomber boarding a bus, or by the Israeli regime when it works to make Palestinian people hungry.

[breakaleg]

10. Welcome to DU.

No, it's not reasonable. What you call protection is a poor excuse for collective punishment.

As another poster said, they voted for a change from Fatah and corruption.

[Hunky Dunky]

9. Big Difference

As you are aware, Hamas PURPOSELY targets innoncents. The whole purpose of a qassam is to commit random violence. The purpose of a suicide bomber is to kill as many people indiscrimately as possible. They seek to do this. It is part of their modus operandi. It is a goal. As yo also know, the Israeli does not actively seek or set as a goal the random killing of innocnet lives. Does it happen. Yes. Is it Israeli policy? No. But, innocent death is the policy of suicide bombers and innoncent death is the purpose of a qassam rocket.

[breakaleg]

11. Israel kills move civilians by depraved indifference so I have little time for that

argument. Not to mention that most of those qassams hit dirt and little else. So, their effect is more political than actual physical damage.

[Hunky Dunky]

13. They do?

Perhaps it is Hamas' depraved indiferrence to their own people which is the real root of their troubles. Hamas is more interested in the destruction of Israel than in peaceful dialogue, and the Palestinian people are the unwitting pawns and victims. So, in fact, the Palestians suffer mainly due to Hamas' depraved agenda.

BTW, how many people has Israel killed due to their so-called "depraved indifference?"

[breakaleg]

14. It's Israel who refused to sit down and talk, not Hamas.

How many? All of them. Beit Hanoun ring any bells?

[Hunky Dunky]

15. They haven't refused.

Hamas has refused. Hamas refuses peace by the fact that their stated aim is the destruction of Israel.

Oh, wait, I see your point now: Hamas wants peace, AND they want to destroy Israel. Gotcha!

"Hey pal, I want to kill you, but, before I do, stop over for nicey-nice and a beer." LOL!

[breakaleg]

16. I think you are getting it backwards. Israel is refusing to negotiate as we speak.

Perhaps you can point me to where Israel has agreed to, suggested or asked for talks?

[oberliner]

18. Olmert to meet Abbas within days: officials

GAZA (Reuters) - Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas will meet Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert next week and Palestinian sources said on Tuesday he may float the idea of widening a truce deal to include the occupied West Bank.

Israeli officials said the meeting could take place as soon as Sunday, and before a Palestinian unity government of Abbas's Fatah faction and Hamas is formed.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070306/wl_nm/palestinians_israel_dc_4

[breakaleg]

20. Nice to see. But I suspect the previous poster was talking about prior to 2 days ago.

[oberliner]

23. Hamas will not talk to Israel

And Israel will not talk to Hamas.

That is why their election was so distressing for those who are interested in peace.

Thankfully, Abbas is still in charge of the organization that is charged with upholding the understandings reached between Israel and the PLO.

[msmcghee]

19. Or, perhaps it's more like . .

Hey pal I want to kill you. But with the checkpoints and the wall you're making it way too difficult and it's taking way too long and these people in surrounding Arab states who are paying me very good oil money to do the job are getting impatient.

Why don't you agree to some concessions so I can say I'm working on it and so they won't get pissed off at me and start sending my wages to some other militant group.

[oberliner]

21. except for the ones that hit actual people and kill or maim them

Sderot victim was a Muslim married to a Jew

At 7:18 a.m. on Wednesday morning, six Kassam rockets slammed into Sderot, killing Fatima Slutsker, 57, and seriously wounding Maor Peretz, 24, a security guard for Defense Minister Amir Peretz.

Slutsker was a Muslim woman who came from the Caucasus Mountains in the Former Soviet Union just three years ago with her Jewish husband.

An eyewitness in a store nearby said she had crossed the road seconds before the rocket landed, and had been waiting for her husband, who was still on the other side of the street.

Avichai Yosef and Benny Libranti from Zaka, the rescue organization that rushes to the scene after terrorist attacks, described the bloody scene as looking like a suicide bombing on a bus.

They said it took hours to gather body parts, which were scattered in a 50-meter, and bones and legs were found on the top of the trees and on car windshields.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1162378409973&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Man dies of wounds sustained in Qassam strike on Sderot

An Israeli man died on Tuesday after sustaining critical wounds in a Qassam strike on Sderot earlier in the day.

Yaakov Yaakobov, 43, was wounded when a rocket fired by Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip came crashing through the roof and down to the lower story of the poultry packing plant in which he worked. The United Nations high commissioner for human rights, Louise Arbour, was visiting in Sderot at the time of the attack.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/790450.html

Those were just at the end of last year. Then, of course, there was this horrific incident from 2004:

Death of Dorit Aniso, age 2, and Yuval Abebeh, age 4, in Sderot from Qassam rockets fired by Palestinians at the city

Here is an excerpt from a Sderot resident taken from B'Tselem:

Before this happened, I was indifferent . Many people were, because a lot of Qassams had fallen. Until you see what they could actually do, you say to yourself, there are Qassams, but it is possible to live with them. As soon as you see the destruction, how it tore that kid apart, you understand that it’s deadly. You can’t stay indifferent. If you used to run out to see where it fell, now you immediately look for a safe place, and only go out after it’s over. Nobody who saw it relates to it as some kind of faraway explosion anymore.

http://www.btselem.org/english/Testimonies/20040929_Death_of_Two_Children_by_Qassam_in_Sderot.asp

[breakaleg]

22. I said most, not all. n/t

[bemildred]

24. Sounds like we are in agreement, more or less.

What it has to do with the comment you made is that it is a similar plea for humanitarian relief based on morality. The starvation of the people in Gaza is quite an intentional as the attacks ascribed to Hamas, and it's just as sick, even if it is a bit more subtle.

[Shaktimaan]

17. Well, I haven't heard that.

Not from any real source anyway, just blogs and forum posts and the like. But if Palestinian children are literally starving then it is something that I am very interested in learning more about. A link would be very much appreciated.

I'd also like to know WHY they are starving considering the massive amounts of food aid that they've been getting. Israel hasn't cut off any food or medical aid, just the specific aid that goes to fund the PA. Where has all of this aid gone to? Where did the money earmarked to clear the rubble from the settlements go? Why were the massive greenhouses that could have provided tons of food razed?... not protected for even a few hours.

If Hamas and the PLO syphon off huge amounts of aid, that was intended to feed and help their own people, in order to line their own pockets why is that Israel's fault? What can Israel do to end PA corruption? I noticed that many people here point to the admittedly dismal conditions that the Palestinians live in and take it as proof positive that Israel is devoid of ethics or morality. Few take the time to ask how much of the poverty is resulting from Israeli actions and how much from Palestinian actions. From donations earmarked for reconstruction going instead to buy Suha Arafat another house, or from needed foreign aid being resold to finance party head's swimming pools?

Nigel Roberts, the World Bank's former representative in the Palestinian territories, said in a recent interview with Israel's Haaretz daily that the PNA received more than $5 billion of aid over a five-year period but was on the verge of being bankrupt.

http://www.eufunding.org/accountability/FatahCorruption.html

[Violet_Crumble]

26. Half of Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza malnourished

Around 46 per cent of Gaza and West Bank households are "food insecure" or in danger of becoming so, according to a UN report on the impact of conflict and the global boycott of the Hamas-led Palestinian Authority.

The unpublished draft report, the first of its kind since the boycott was imposed when the Hamas government took office last March, says bluntly that the problem "is primarily a function of restricted economic access to food resulting from ongoing political conditions".

The report, jointly produced by the UN's World Food Programme and the Food and Agriculture Organisation, paints a bleak picture of the impact on food consumption and expenditure throughout the occupied Palestinian territories. It says that the situation is "more grim" in Gaza where four out of five families have reduced their spending - including on food - in the first quarter of last year alone.

The report acknowledges that "traditionally strong ties" among Palestinian families tend to reduce the possibility of "acute household hunger". But it warns that against a background of decreasing food security since the beginning of the Intifada since 2000 and the loss of PA salaries because of the boycott there are now "growing concerns about the sustainability of Palestinians' resilience".

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2293476.ece

Now, maybe you could explain what these massive amounts of food aid are? There are no huge amounts of aid going into the Occupied Territories, despite yr claim to the contrary. Instead you talk about the corruption of the Fatah govt, while all reports talking about malnutrition are talking about since Hamas gained power...

[Shaktimaan]

27. That's what I thought.

Haha. I knew you were going to do that. Let me guess, when you say "starving," you meant "malnourished," right? Is it just a coincidence that you chose to use the word representing the most extreme kind of malnourishment that exists and not, say... a more general, less dramatic, yet possibly accurate term such as "undernourished" or "experiencing hunger?"

Seriously Violet, and I mean this, widespread malnourishment in the territories is pretty serious business. It is something that really has to be discussed and fixed immediately, by whatever means are available. Its importance transcends the politics of the conflict, really, everything else happening on both sides of this war should get put on hold until this is addressed and a plan is put into action.

So it annoys me to no end when people exaggerate the already dismal situation of the Palestinians in examples like this in an attempt to either shock people into action or to buttress part of a political argument they are making. It has the effect of downrating the true hardships Palestinians face, and ultimately hurting the credibility of the movement to help Palestinians in general.

If a cause is just then there really isn't any reason to exaggerate their hardships. Being "food insecure" is bad enough, why do they have to be starving? Isn't there enough speculation presented as fact going on regarding the I/P situation?

[bemildred]

28. You prefer "dieting"?

Starving means not getting enough food, malnourished means getting bad food, it's not the same thing. "Food insecurity" is ALREADY a euphemism for starving. Do you have to be dead before you can be said to be starving?

[Shaktimaan]

31. you should buy a dictionary.

But for now I'll help you out.

"Food insecurity" is a technical term used to descibe families or individuals who do not have access to a regular, constant food supply. There are multiple causes of food insecurity: poverty, low wages, limited transportation and geographic isolation. Most often, many families simply don't have enough money left after paying rent, utilities and health care to purchase enough food. In fact, eleven percent of Wisconsin households are food insecure.

http://www.hungertaskforce.org/understanding_hunger/understanding_hunger/
----

Malnutrition is a general term for the medical condition caused by an improper or insufficient diet. It most often refers to undernutrition resulting from inadequate consumption, poor absorption, or excessive loss of nutrients, but the term can also encompass overnutrition, resulting from overeating or excessive intake of specific nutrients

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malnutrition
----

starve
1. To suffer or die from extreme or prolonged lack of food.
2. To deprive of food so as to cause suffering or death.

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/starved
----

Starvation is the result of a serious, or total, lack of nutrients needed for the maintenance of life.

http://healthresources.caremark.com/topic/topic100587506

[bemildred]

33. Right, and all of those apply to the situation in Gaza.

And I can't see how they are incompatible with what I said. Somewhat nebulous, as they would have to be.

[breakaleg]

32. There was a report posted here recently that said people in Gaza generally get

one meal per day. Do you live on one meal a day? I'd call that starving.

[bemildred]

34. No, no that is "nutritional insufficiency" or "hypo-caloric intake" or something. nt

[breakaleg]

35. Ha! nt

[Behind the Aegis]

29. I don't believe them.

What conditions do they provide if attacks on Israel or her citizens occur? Should Israel just "take it?" This is one of the major problems with this situation, there are too many players on the Palestinian "side." Just because Hamas and Fatah agree to a ceasefire, what of the many "militant" groups? It is as if the Israelis are expected to negotiate with the Hydra, and every head works to its own accord.

[bemildred]

30. It seems we agree, see my comment.

On the other hand, no government has absolute control of its people, let alone one as weak as Hamas. It ought to be worth something, and in fact it is in their interest as the "government" to see that their commitments are kept, that they are obeyed. You can't very well make a peace agreement with the Palestinian government if there is none such with the power and legitimacy to carry its commitments out.

That is one reason I consider that the continued effort to keep the Palestinians "weak" seems misguided to me, or incoherent, politically speaking; or else one must assume the Israeli government is not really interested in negotiating a settlement with the Palestinians yet. It seems clear at least that there are mixed motives at work and mixed messages are being sent.

And it beats the more inflamed rhetoric one sees prominently displayed here, death to Israel, kill the Jews, etc.