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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 05:10 AM
Original message
German Turk takes on 'anti-Semitic Islamic propaganda'
BERLIN - When Aycan Demirel looks out his office window onto the main street of the Kreuzberg neighborhood, center of the Turkish community in Germany's capital, he is unimpressed by the diverse human mosaic for which "Little Istanbul" is famous. Businesses along Oranienstrasse are populated by young Germans eating shwarma to the sounds of Turkish music, but Demirel pointedly recalled the darker side of the neighborhood experience. "The residents here love to treat this neighborhood as a model of multiculturalism and tolerance, but that image is fraudulent," he said.

"The Jews have no place in this multiculturalism," Demirel said. "If you wear a kippa or a Magen David, there's a big chance you'll be cursed at and even assaulted. Anti-Semitism is rearing its head in Germany, only now the anti-Semites are young Muslims."

Demirel, 38, is not Jewish; he emigrated from Turkey 16 years ago. In today's Germany, his decision to confront radical Islam places him on the frontlines of one of the stormiest social debates the country has known.

Last month, a storm erupted over statements about Islam made by the pope, himself a German. Conservative politicians hastened to his defense in what was presented as a struggle over freedom of expression. Shortly afterward came the controversial cancelation of a Mozart opera because of a scene in which the severed head of the Prophet Mohammed is displayed. This self-censorship due to "fear of Islam" aroused protests across nearly the entire political spectrum.


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shergald Donating Member (494 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
1. One and two.
1) Antisemitism is wrong. What seems to be stimulating it across the Islamic world is Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. Although America is under a general censorship concerning Israel's relationship to the Palestinian people, Europe and the wider Islamic world is not. It intensifies and justifies, unduly, prejudices against Jews. THe majority of Jews, by contrast, do not agree with what is happening on the West Bank and Gaza. Dialog and education is much needed here.

2) Sterotypes about Muslims have been rampant in western societies, and on occasion have found their way into western culture and art. Even Mozart could use reevaluation perhaps revision, lest it help to reinforce these stereotypes.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I agree that the reason for the current rise in antisemitism is not the
same as that of Nazi germany. Then they were hated for their religion. Today it's more about their current actions and treatment of the Palestinians. And the solution to this would be to deal with this issue.

But it seems we don't want to do that and Israeli's refuse to see that distinction.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. We are still hated for our religion.
Now, people disguise that hate as hate for Israel.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. You missed the point.
I never said that anti-Israeli and Anti-Semitic sentiments were the same. What I did say is that anti-Semitism sometimes gets passed off as anti-Israeli rhetoric. The very fact that anti-Semitism has increased, some say because of Israeli actions, just proves the point that anti-Semitism and anti-Israeli thoughts and actions sometimes go hand-in-hand.

Shooting a woman to death because she is a Jew because you disagree with Israeli policy is anti-Semitism. Claiming that Anti-Semitism is increasing because of the actions of Israel is anti-Semitic. It basically boils down to blaming the victims for their victimization. What Israel does or doesn't do, should not be a catalyst for violence or rhetoric against Jewry.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Hang on.
From your post:

"Claiming that Anti-Semitism is increasing because of the actions of Israel is anti-Semitic. It basically boils down to blaming the victims for their victimization."

So saying that Israeli policy and actions are contributing to a rise in anti-semitism in also anti-semitic? People aren't allowed to make informed decisions based on actual actions made by Israel because they are Jewish? That's absurd!

As for blaming the victim - did you mean Israel as the victim? Because they aren't the victim in this current Israeli-Palestinian conflict - they are the aggressor. I cannot fathom how anyone can look at the actions Israel takes in the occupied territories, their treatment of the Palestinians can come up with the notion that Israel is the victim.
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Antisemitic actions are actions against Jews.
Assaulting a Jew in Italy and saying you did it because of Israel's treatment of Palestinians is, in fact, antisemitic.

Saying that antisemitic acts are increasing because of Israel is no different than someone looking for black Muslims to harrass or attack because of Darfur.

I think maybe you two are talking past each other here.
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IntiRaymi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-17-06 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #8
19. Prove the 'fact' that antisemitism has increased.
And no, newspaper curios do not count.
An equivalent statement would be:
Claims of anti-semitism go hand in hand with anti-arab bigotry.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-17-06 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. For which country?
It is not a matter of posting one website to prove it. It would be a collection of data from a variety of sites. However, many places are recording increases based on reports from the last year. This is true in France and England. Depending on the country and their reporting methods, the latest information would be dated for 2005. Though, I have found some comparisons from 2005 with 2006 incidents up to May. But, why should I go to all the trouble when it appears you really do not care, you are simply trying to say that anti-Semitism is either not on the rise or not a problem, or perhaps both.

Your "equivalent statement" makes no sense.
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IntiRaymi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-17-06 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. It makes perfect sense to me.
Claims of antisemitism are a diversion to distract attention from the anti-arab bigotry that is so often on display here.
It takes a bigot to excuse and rationalize what Israel, in official state acts, does to Palestinians, and the manner in which it went about in Lebanon.
Antisemitism on the rise in France & England? Take it up with them - Europeans have always had it for people that don't quite fit in. Just ask the sephardic and Mizrahi outsiders in Israel proper, if you want a taste of what it really is about.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-17-06 05:10 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Islamaphobia is a diversion to distract attention from anti-Semitism
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IntiRaymi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-17-06 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. It exists. Too bad hypocrisy is the one skill some in here have.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-17-06 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. My thoughts exactly!
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IntiRaymi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-17-06 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Yes, obvious, isn't it?
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-17-06 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. I would say given the respones I have read.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Actually, that's not correct.
Jews were not hated for their religion as much as they were hated for their ethnicity. After all, even those with one Jewish grandparent, and those who had converted to Christianity were persecuted and killed. In addition, your conflation of Jews and Israelis is alarming. And disgusting. After participating for as long as you have on this forum, you should know better than to make such a glaring error.
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shergald Donating Member (494 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Agree.
In principle, Zionism was a good idea, a homeland for the Jews who had suffered centuries of prejudice, exclusion, progroms, and then the horrid Holocaust. Balfour, however, had already envisioned difficulties by cautioning that the homeland should not disturb the lives of the indigenous Arab population in Palestine. Ben Gurion's writing, on the other hand, displayed other ideas and even contained a domino theory about how original Israel could be attained by piecemeal and progressive displacement of the Palestinian Arabs to essentiall get it all. I don't think he envisioned that this would eventually magnify rather than reduce what Zionism's purpose was to begin with: counteracting antiSemitism. The world changed.
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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Your continued references of Ben Gurion
is no different than a fundy dredging up some disgusting racist comment by Margaret Sanger, as if that has anything to do with the reproductive rights mvmt.
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shergald Donating Member (494 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Ben Gurion did write you know.
If you prefer, I could quote Menachem Begin in 1948, then leader of the Irgun (later Likud PM), who said in negative response to the British or UN Partition: "the land of Israel belongs to the people of Israel, all of it, forever." Or if you wish, I could quote another Likudnik on the same thing, Bibi Netanyahu, who in Clean Break a 1996 document, said, in response to Oslo: "no more land for peace. Peace for peace."

Margaret Singer? Don't know about her racism, but her fabrication of data is now acknowledged.
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shergald Donating Member (494 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Correction.
Somehow Margaret Mead slipped into mind. Yes, Margaret Sanger had racist leanings, but the comparison with Ben Gurion is beyond me. He didn't think much of Arabs, certainly. Beyond that, well that's beyond me.
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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. using Ben-Gurions' writings to discuss/represent Zionism
is an ad hominem. It's no different than a IDer using some weird factoid about Darwin to refute Evolution, or an anti-abortionist using statements by Sanger to represent the pro-choice mvmt.
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shergald Donating Member (494 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. I can't argue the point knowledgeably at this point.
My readings are old and not that extensive to do so. But I do believe that the early Zionists had different concepts as to how Zionism was to be implemented and its extent. So equating Zionism with Ben Gurion with Israel and just forgetting the point is not necessarily a trivial mistake. I do know that Ben Gurion did express a grand version of Zionism now pretty much part of the Likud platform. Other views were just having a piece of it or even sharing it. Perhaps you can inform here.
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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. The Wiki entry is a good summary/starting point
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shergald Donating Member (494 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. How about a source of Ben Gurion's writings, in the raw.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-13-06 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #9
17. Yawn.
It's not difficult to find quotes from either side that are repulsive. Does that mean I should dredge up some of the more incendiary verbiage of Arafat or the Grand Mufti, or current Hamas leaders. Not particularly helpful in my book.
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shergald Donating Member (494 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-13-06 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. The problem, Cali, is that when you look for the source of
current Israeli policy with respect to the West Bank and Gaza, you can go back and find it in Ben Gurion's plans for Israel. Interesting that you could find these plans to be "incendiary verbiage," but it is precisely what explains today, Israel's actions.

You can sit there and deny that Israel is not intending to confiscate and eventually annex the West Bank, but that is not how Israel is acting today nor during the past 39 years of its occupation of the Palestinian people. Nothing about this conflict is more obvious. Ben Gurion, Israel's George Washington, in this regard, has not been without influence. That you would find his words to be just "incendiary verbiage," having little consequence is unual. His plans, whether intentionally or accidentally, are the foundation of Israel policy with respect to the Palestinians, whether you want to deny it or not.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-17-06 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. actually your quite wrong....
much of ben gurions actions were in fact designed to live with arabs who stayed as part of israel...and yes its quite easy to deny that israel has no intention of annexing the westbank as its has shown via actions and words that israel has no intention of such.

perhaps you would like to show how israel is planning on incorporating all the palestenain arabs in the westbank in to israel with its annexation?

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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-17-06 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. I think the point is they won't incorporate the Palestinian Arabs into
Israel. They will allow them to rot in refugee camps until they dwindle in numbers of find a way to move elsewhere.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-17-06 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. You do realize, don't you, that your
statement holds true for Jordan and other countries as well as Israel?
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-17-06 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Yes, I realize Jordan doesn't want the refugees.
Edited on Tue Oct-17-06 07:06 PM by breakaleg
But that doesn't change the fact that the occupied territories IS their rightful, legal home and Israel has no right to push them out.

And while I'd like to believe that another nation would accept any refugees, is it right to simply try to find alternate homes for them when their land is stolen? Doesn't that then validate what Israel has (or would have done)?
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livesinthemideast Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-18-06 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. What about Jewish refugees?
Just like the thousands of Jewish refugees that where forced out of their homes from across the Middle East?

The finding of alternate homes for refugees is very common. The Palestinian refugees being one of the few that did not get relocated.

I do not support Israel relocating the Palestinians but at the same time the Palestinians have to realize that they will not be able to live in Haifa or Jaffa.


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