UN observer: Hizbullah using us as shields

[barb162]

UN observer: Hizbullah using us as shields

Six days before he was killed in an Israel Air Force bombing of a United Nations post in southern Lebanon, Canadian observer Major Paeta Hess-von Kruendener sent an email to his former commander in the Canadian army, in which he said that Hizbullah fighters were "running around" near the UN post struck by the Israel Defense Forces and that they were using the post as a sort of "shield" against Israel's strikes.

The former commander, Major-General Lewis MacKenzie, who served as a UN commander in Bosnia, spoke about the email in a Canadian radio show. He said that Hess-von Kruendener wrote that the IDF strikes near the post had "not been deliberate targeting, but rather due to tactical necessity."

"That would mean Hizbullah was purposely setting up near the UN post," he added. "It's a tactic."

Hess-von Kruendener even sent an email to the Canadian television network CTV a few days before his death, in which he spoke about the IDF's bombardments near his UN post and said that he feared for his life.


(07.28.06, 03:26)


snip

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3282569,00.html

[tuvor]

1. It's an abhorrent tactic, but...

"...an initial UN report suggested before the post was hit, peacekeepers had called the Israeli military 10 times in a six-hour period to warn them the shelling was getting too close."

http://english.people.com.cn/200607/28/eng20060728_287394.html

The responsibility for the deaths of the peacekeepers is not monopolized by any one party.

[barb162]

2. I know that; it's clear the UN people should not have been

there with fighting that close; they should have been evacuated

[Tunkamerica]

3. that, or not bombed...

doesn't that negate the purpose of having UN observers if you can just "evacuate" them whenever you don't want them observing?

[TomInTib]

5. Bingo. nt

[barb162]

7. I think when hez is "running around" like the man said

the UN commanders should have said they needed evacuation ASAP. Let a drone observe

[eyl]

18. From the Guardian

Major Paeta Hess-von Kruedener of the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, was based at the UN's Khiyam base. Here is an edited extract of an email from July 18:

It appears that the lion's share of fighting between the IDF and Hizbullah has taken place in our area ...We have ... had numerous occasions where our position has come under direct or indirect fire from artillery and aerial bombing. The closest artillery has landed within two metres of our position and the closest 1000lb aerial bomb landed 100 metres from our base. This has not been deliberate targeting, but has rather been due to tactical necessity.

Guardian

[vincent_vega_lives]

19. Peacekeepers

Peace wasn't being kept, unarmed, being used as shields. Irresponsible to leave them there.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[eyl]

43. Yeah, because the mess of reporters in Lebanon

wouldn't notice anything?

[tuvor]

4. Well, 10 phone calls didn't help to make the coast clear for an escape.

Just how were they supposed to have been evacuated?

[barb162]

8. Maybe six days before?

per the story, things were getting pretty intense

[tuvor]

10. Why does the phrase "blame the victim" come to mind?

[barb162]

11. It shouldn't.

It's the last thing one should do. I'd like to hear more from the UN commanders on why their people weren't pulled out of that post when the danger level was getting so high.

[tuvor]

12. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't seem as interested in finding out

why ten phone calls over six hours from the armless peacekeepers warning the heavily-armed Israeli military that they were getting way too close were clearly not effectively heeded.

BTW, "Israel says UN can't be part of probe of deadly attack on post"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2418425&mesg_id=2418425

The fox is in charge of the henhouse.

[barb162]

13. Okay, I'll correct you

I am interested in finding out the "whole" story including why in the world the UN commanders for this post kept these guys there during full blown fighting when they could have been evacuated days before. I will want to hear the hez side of things for which I won't be holding my breath. And I will want to hear the Israeli side. Who is the fox here? I think it was a series of horrible mistakes

[tuvor]

15. "A series of horrible mistakes" you surmise, based on...what, exactly?

As you said elsewhere in this thread, it is your "suspicion" that this was the last thing Israel wanted to have happen. What facts are you basing that on?

As far as your wanting to hear the Israeli side of things, it sounds like they'll tell you what happened after they've conducted the official investigation...without the input of the UN.

[barb162]

17. See this from the story

"Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper said that he did not believe Israel intentionally attacked the UN post.

"I certainly doubt that to be the case. Israel was cooperating with us in our evacuation efforts, in our efforts to move Canadian citizens out of Lebanon," he said. "

There would be no point for Israel to hit the post willfully. None. And of course after an investigation they'll let the UN know their findings. The UN can explain why they didn't get those poor guys out of there days ahead of time.

[tuvor]

22. LOL! Our PM's purported "doubt" is hardly a fact to base a position on.

If you're really, truly interested in knowing more about the two-facedness of the person whose opinion you're trusting, so that you have something to hang your suspicions on, please find out more in the Canada Forum.

Or maybe you'd care to see his many thousands of comments about the Middle East situation at his official website? http://www.pm.gc.ca/eng/default.asp

In the meantime, your last sentence seems perfectly consistent with suspicions I alluded to earlier that you feel Israel can do no wrong--despite effectively ignoring ten phone calls in six hours (did I happen to mention that?)--and that everything is the UN's fault.

[barb162]

34. Tuvor, your opinions are just that.

Because you weren't there and neither was I

Of course Israel can do wrong. And so can hez and so can the UN. And so can all three at the same time resulting in a horrible accident. Tell me, if hez hadn't killed and captured Israeli soldiers a few weeks ago, would Israel be in Lebanon right now. No. I prefer to not just automatically blame Israel for everything, like some do around here. Until more evidence comes out, I suspect this was a fog of war accident.
edit:sp

[barb162]

33. Based on what? The story, that's what

and also the "fog of war"

The fact is all of us can only have suppositions at this time, except for the ones actively involved in the incident or the forensics people.

[vincent_vega_lives]

20. Hardly

I don't think that anyone is blaming the four killed. But Hezbollua, the IDF and the UN all share some blame.

[DemFromMem]

41. That was my first thought

What the hell were their superiors thinking when they decided to keep these poor saps unarmed and unprotected in the middle of a war zone? It seems to me that Kofi Annan and company who were screaming the loudest blaming Israel probably don't want people asking this question.

[MrPrax]

6. Deliberate...no doubt

It's a war crime...last time Israel invaded Lebanon they rocketed the UN and killed them. Israel doesn't want any witnesses to it's war crimes. Pure and simple. The building was hit at apparantly the exact time Rice's plane left Tel Aviv to attend the UN meeting in Rome.

Israel already said flatly that it would have the UN involved and this was a way of sabotaging diplomacy, because they want to continue to burning children and killing Arabs from the air.

Did you know that even when they were rescuing the bodies, Israel still was shelling them? I posted elsewhere that the UN reports filed only indicate 'small arms fire' by Hez anyway. So Israel has to do some spinning and Big Mac is ready to jump into the fray, divining all of this from well...last night he was busy:

STAND WITH ISRAEL
community solidarity rally to be held TONIGHT in Toronto

TORONTO, July 26 /CNW/ - More than 100 Jewish and non-Jewish
organizations from across Toronto will join together to sponsor Stand with
Israel, a community-wide solidarity rally to be held tonight at 7:30 p.m. at
the Toronto Centre for the Arts (5040 Yonge Street, north of Sheppard Avenue).
Primary organizational support for the rally is being provided by UJA
Federation of Greater Toronto, Canadian Jewish Congress Ontario Region and the
Canada-Israel Committee.
The rally will feature keynote speaker Retired Major-General Lewis
MacKenzie, the first commander of UN forces in Sarajevo at the beginning of
the Bosnian civil war, an internationally respected military analyst and one
of Canada's most decorated peacekeepers. Among the other speakers will be
Ya'acov Brosh, Israel's consul general in Toronto, and Robert Lantos, an
award-winning film producer, who will emcee the rally.
The rally will also feature a special live satellite broadcast at 8pm
Toronto time and 3am Israeli time from northern Israel, where its citizens
have been subjected to a constant barrage of rocket attacks by Hezbollah.

Mackenzie, Brosh and Lantos will be available to meet with members of the
media at the Toronto Centre for the Arts prior to the rally from 6:45 p.m. to
7:15 p.m.

NOTE: Proper media credentials will be required to gain entry.

Reminder:
Stand with Israel Rally
TONIGHT, 7:30 p.m.
Speakers available to media 6:45-7:15 p.m., Studio Theatre
Toronto Centre for the Arts, 5040 Yonge St., Toronto



For further information: Howard English, Vice President of Marketing and
Communications, UJA Federation of Greater Toronto, [phone] (office),
[phone] (cell), [email protected], www.jewishtoronto.com; Wendy
Lampert, National Director of Communications, Canadian Jewish Congress, (416)
631-5844 (office), 416-845-4674 (cell), [email protected], www.cjc.ca

CNW

But enough of Canada's attempt to enter the big leagues of neo-con spin

Did you see this one? It's about the Globe and Israeli Military Censors? actually I'll post it in the OTHER forum...

[barb162]

9. My suspicion is the last thing Israel wanted is for these

UN observers to die. Not a war crime, but a horrible accident.

[MrPrax]

14. Makes no sense...

They mistakenly shelled the one at Zarit two days eariler...two mistakes? Nearly killed all the Ghanians there? Remember? Do You Remeber?

Do you not recall the head of UN Iain Hook was shot in the back while carrying a white flag shot by an IDF sniper in Jenin? Remember? Do you Remember?

Do you not recall the 1996 shelling of the UN post at Qana? Over a 100 Lebanese were killed while they took refugee there? Remember? Do you Remember?

People are always shouting they want to create a better future. It's not true. The future is an apathetic void of no interest to anyone. The past is full of life, eager to irritate us, provoke and insult us, tempt us to destroy or repaint it. The only reason people want to be masters of the future is to change the past. - Milan Kundera

[barb162]

35. Makes no sense? SO why was Hez "running around"

there again? They were using the post as a shield.

I don't know about your point of this "do you remember" listing. Mistaken shellings, etc., of only ONE side in this conflict. Is hez doing mistaken shellings too? Are they aiming at anything in particular that is bothersome to you? Are they aiming at all? Are there mistakes in war.

[Kailassa]

16. Do you know the definition of "shill"? n/t

[vincent_vega_lives]

21. Someone who holds an opinion contrary to your own? (n/t)

[barb162]

36. Yes, do you? And care to be more specific as to why you bring

it up?

[pelsar]

23. so much ignorence......

It seems that Hizballa was shooting from near the UN compound

and for those who know little about artillary/bombs may be surprised to discover that they dont always where go where they're supposed to....inquiring minds might even do some basic research about it, in fact the more rounds fired the less exact the firing becomes....such is life in a war zone.


for those who have no idea:
"Artillery will fall short. Planes will drop their bombs in the wrong place. A soldier will lift his head up when someone behind him shoots his rifle," he says. "It's very hard to track the casualties and the causes of them in action.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/friendlyfire/fogofwar.html

from what i keep on reading in this place its as if the IDF is somekind of perfect machine where everything works perfectly at all time.....the lack of experience here and agressive ignorence is quite telling.....some of the posters here should go and learn abit about the realities of warfare....assuming they actually want to know whats going on, as opposed to just reacting out an emotional need.

(the most interesting post was the meger lists of "mistakes" the IDF has made in the last years...so much shooting and so few mistakes is quite impressive)

[tuvor]

24. How do you account for Israeli army's effectively ignoring 10 phone calls

over six hours, from the peacekeepers telling the military repeatedly that their bombs were getting too damned close?

No one's blaming the deaths on bombs that couldn't possibly hit peacekeepers if they weren't being launched in the first place.

At the best, it's gross incompetence of the very worst kind, wouldn't you agree?

[pelsar]

25. so they were calling....???

if hizballa is shooting from next to the UN compound, i doubt any commander in the field would stop shooting back.....in case you dont understand, there is a hierarchy in battle:

most important are your own troops,
second in line are everybody else

the UN people probably should have phoned the Hizballa command post...."wouldnt you agree"

___________
on a footnote...what your suggesting is actually quite interesting: Hizballas should be able to shoot freely at israelis and israel is not "allowed to shoot back"...are you serious?

[tuvor]

27. I don't pretend to understand the protocol, and neither should you.

Unless, that is, you know something and aren't telling.

If this hierarchy you speak of exists in the way you imagine, it's truly astounding that the UN peacekeepers would have contacted the Israeli military not just once...

not twice...
not three times...
not four times...
not five times...
not six times...
not seven times...
not eight times...
not nine times...

but TEN TIMES all in vain, because they weren't aware of this "hierarchy".

Astounding, indeed, that you seem to know all about it, but the peacekeepers obviously did not. Are you suggesting the Israeli military didn't bother to advise the UN of this hierarchy?

Even if your scenario is true, it's still indicative of the worst possible negligence on the part of the Israeli military.

[pelsar]

32. you obviously no little about armed forces....

the hierarchy of "soldiers protecting their own" is standard in all armies all over the world

maybe they called 10 times...was hizballa shooting from the UN vicinity during those phone calls?...and it would have been negligent on the part of the IDF NOT to protect its troops by not eliminating the source of the firing

so why didnt the UN call up Hizballa and tell THEM to stop firing?

btw if you dont know the "protocols"..how is it that your passing judgement? (its not so much protocols as SOP for an army involved in a battle but your lack of knowledge is telling)

[tuvor]

29. "Most important are your own troops"...Huh?

Were there Israeli troops near the UN facility?

If so, that's news to me.

[pelsar]

31. shooting from UN positions...

do i really have to explain what that means?

heres another report:
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr012.pdf


There were five other incidents of firing
close to UN positions from the Israeli side. It was also reported that
Hezbollah fired from the vicinity of five UN positions at Alma Ash Shab, At
Tiri, Bayt Yahoun, Brashit, and Tibnin.

so i'm assuming your of the same opinion, that if hizballa shoots from areas next to the UN positions, the IDF shouldnt shoot back?....pretty simply question, looking for an equally simple answer

(guess your not up to date on the news...)

[wellst0nev0ter]

26. Doesn't Matter Anyways Since Israel Won't Allow A UN Investigation

Dan Gillerman also said Israel would not allow the United Nations to join in an investigation of an Israeli air strike that demolished a post belonging to the current U.N. peacekeeping mission in Lebanon. Four UN observers were killed in the Tuesday strike.

"Israel has never agreed to a joint investigation, and I don't think that if anything happened in this country, or in Britain or in Italy or in France, the government of that country would agree to a joint investigation," Gillerman said.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/743541.html

[tuvor]

28. Funny that, since it happened in Lebanon.

[barb162]

37. Well then let Lebanon do an investigation with the UN

Maybe they can get hez in there and hez can explain why it was using the UN post as a shield and for all we know maybe it was a hez rocket gone astray

[barb162]

38. "The IDF is launching a full investigation in close coordination

with the UN."
http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/mainpage.asp?sl=EN&id=7&docid=55107&Pos=13&last=1&bScope=True

[wellst0nev0ter]

39. Cute How You Automatically Take The IDF At Its Word

especially after the controversy of an Israeli missile hitting those Palestinians on a beach.

In any case, that is old news and new developments have come up. Also why would the Israeli UN ambassador contradict the IDF?

[barb162]

40. It's illogical for you to presume I am taking an entity at its "word"

when all I did was provide a link. In any case, it's not cute that you apparently assume automatically that a certain country can't be taken for its word. It's not a contradiction to say there won't be a joint investigation and that at the same time there won't be cooperation. I am sure they will be trading info, don't you?
As to the "controversy of an Israeli missile" who says it was a missile at all, let alone an Israeli missile. How do you know it wasn't an unexploded Palesinian shell? DO you remember the incident when a Palestinian truck was in a parade about a year ago, exploded and killed several Palestinians. The automatic and quick blame was that Israel hit the truck, except for one little problem. Israel didn't hit the truck.

[wellst0nev0ter]

42. You Know A UN Investigation Is Useless Without Israeli Cooperation

and the comments by the Israeli UN ambassador indicates that they obviously will not be cooperating or sharing information.

I don't know about the exploding truck to offer comment, but I do know that the initial Israeli denials in the Palestinian beach incident has been wildly contradicted by evidence ignored by the Israelis. That and other instances of mendacity on the part of the Israelis forces me to take anything they say with a grain of salt.

[KoKo]

44. BUT...do we know for a FACT that that e-mail is true and hasn't been

misinterpreted by the M$M or those who have many Dog's and $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$'s in this Fight?

That's what bothered me about that e-mail. CNN couldn't wait to post it from their "internet blogger" and although they DID SAY ..."this was posted on an "internet site" and we "couldn't verify it" ...CNN was VERY QUICK to Run with This?

:shrug: Given what we know about Bushies....should we "Question or Believe?" :shrug: