Dead Jews Aren't News

[barb162]

Sunday, October 23 2005
Dead Jews Aren't News
An article by Tom Gross in the UK Spectator:


Rachel Thaler, aged 16, was blown up at a pizzeria in an Israeli shopping mall. She died after an 11-day struggle for life following a suicide bomb attack on a crowd of teenagers on 16 February 2002.

Even though Thaler was a British citizen, born in London, where her grandparents still live, her death has never been mentioned in a British newspaper.

Rachel Corrie, on the other hand, an American radical who died in 2003 while acting as a human shield during an Israeli anti-terror operation in Gaza, has been widely featured in the British press. According to the Guardian website, she has been written about or referred to on 57 separate occasions in the Guardian alone, including three articles the Saturday before last.


snip

But Rachel Thaler, unlike Rachel Corrie, was Jewish. And unlike Corrie, Jewish victims of Middle East violence have not become a cause célèbre in Britain. This lack of response is all the more disturbing at a time when an increasing number of British Jews feel that there has been a sharp rise in anti-Semitism.

snip

http://backspin.typepad.com/backspin/2005/10/dead_jews_arent.html

[understandinglife]

1. Since when. Any one killed is news, at least as far as I'm concerned.

Peace.

[Lexingtonian]

2. strange, that

As for Israelis keeping the mutual kill ratio at 3 Palestinians per Israeli/Jew throughout, that isn't worthy of any mention either.

[Trajan]

3. Rachel had an active pool of support making a great noise about her loss

Perhaps the other Rachel had no such advocates ? ... perhaps ..

What IS true > EVERY life is precious .... EVERY loss to such hatred is WRONG WRONG WRONG .....

The amount of press received by a specific death bears no weight on the gravity of the moral implications of such losses .... EACH are equally awful l... EQUALLY heinous ....

Each are missed as horribly, as sadly, and as sweetly ....

[applegrove]

4. I know so much about her. I've heard alot. That pizzaria bombing was

what brought terror in Israel home for me. I cannot imagine that the Brits have not heard about her.

[Tom Joad]

5. This is not accurate.

If one studies the NY Times (or most mainstream media), there are many more stories about Jewish Israeli children and adults who are killed in the conflict, much more so than Palestinian deaths. It is much more like to humanize the death of an Israeli-- by quoting friends and family-- than it is to talk to the friends and families of Palestinians who are killed, who often are mentioned with little more than an aside.

The truth is that all these deaths -- of Israeli Jews, of Palestinians, of international human rights activists, reporters and UN workers, is part of a great tragedy of an occupation without end.

In my view, the only way to hope to stop this human tragedy is to stop the occupation, and for those of us in the US, it means ending funding of an illegal occupation.

[Jim Sagle]

6. NYT is a US paper, not a British one. So, with all due respect,

your response is decidedly off the point.

[idontwantaname]

16. the NYT reports more israeli deaths than palestinians...

at a rate of aprox 3 times more israelis than palestinians.

even though this number seems high is it one of the US' more accurate papers.

[Colorado Blue]

9. The deaths long preceded the occupation. Terror attacks

against Jews (in this region, in modern times) began in the 1920's and haven't stopped since.

[Violet_Crumble]

13. Which deaths??

btw, trying to portray only one side as carrying out 'terror attacks' in the 1920's is pretty ridiculous and flat-out wrong. There was violence carried out by both groups, or is attacks on the Arab civilians of Palestine not considered to be terrorism?

Violet...

[barb162]

40. Haycraft Commission of Inquiry into the 1920-21 Arab Riots

"The fundamental cause of the Jaffa riots and the subsequent acts of violence was a feeling among the Arabs of discontent with, and hostility to, the Jews, due to political and economic causes, and connected with Jewish immigration, and with their conception of Zionist policy as derived from Jewish exponents.

The immediate cause of the Jaffa riots on the 1st May was an unauthorized demonstration of Bolshevik Jews, followed by its clash with an authorized demonstration of the Jewish Labour Party.

The racial strife was begun by the Arabs, and rapidly developed into a conflict of great violence between Arabs and Jews, in which the Arab majority, who were generally the aggressors, inflicted most of the casualties.

The outbreak was not premeditated or expected, nor was either side prepared for it; but the state of popular feeling made a conflict likely to occur on any provocation by any Jews. "

snip

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/haycraft.html

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riots_in_Palestine_of_1920
"Riots in Palestine of 1920

snip
During a procession on April 4, 1920, inflammatory anti-Zionist rhetoric led to rioting in Jerusalem. One of the inciters was Hajj Amin al-Husayni, a young nephew of the mayor of Jerusalem, another was the editor of the newspaper Suriya al-Janubia ("Southern Syria") Aref al-Aref, who delivered his speech on horseback. The Arab mob went on to ransack the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem, beating anyone they could find and looting shops and homes. The riots lasted for four days.

Arab educator and a essayist Khalil al-Sakakini witnessed the eruption of violence in the Old City:

" riot broke out, the people began to run about and stones were thrown at the Jews. The shops were closed and there were screams... I saw a Zionist soldier covered in dust and blood... Afterwards, I saw one Hebronite approach a Jewish shoeshine boy, who hid behind a sack in one of the wall's comers next to Jaffa Gate, and take his box and beat him over the head. He screamed and began to run, his head bleeding and the Hebronite left him and returned to the procession... The riot reached its zenith. All shouted, "Muhammad's religion was born with the sword"... I immediately walked to the municipal garden... my soul is nauseated and depressed by the madness of humankind." (Source: Khalil al-Sakakini, Such am I, Oh World!, quoted by Benny Morris, Righteous Victims)
The British acted erratically. After the violence broke out, Jabotisky met Storrs and suggested deployment of his volunteers, but this request was rejected. Later Storrs changed his mind and asked for 200 volunteers to report to the police headquarters to be sworn in as deputies. After they arrived and the administering of the oath had begun, orders came to cease and send them away. The army imposed night curfew on Sunday night and arrested several dozen rioters, but on Monday morning they were allowed to attend morning prayer and then released.

On Monday disturbances grew worse and the Old City was sealed off by the army. Even the Jews who sought to flee were not allowed to leave. Martial law was declared, but looting, burglary, rape and murder continued. Several homes were set on fire."

snip

[Violet_Crumble]

41. The post CB replied to said nothing about the 1920's...

Which is why I asked what deaths she was talking about. Replying to my post by posting something about the riots didn't answer my question, btw. Do you think those riots was the only violence that happened during the 1920's, and that Jews were the only victims?

Violet....

[barb162]

45. CB specifically referenced the 1920s and Jewish casualties.

in post 9.

[barb162]

46. By the way the articles discussed the deaths

if you read them. And do you think those riots was the only violence that happened during the 1920's?

[idontwantaname]

17. please colorado provide more re:"terror attacks"...

[Colorado Blue]

48. Are you SERIOUS? Please read some history of the

modern Middle East. Wikipedia has some good articles.

[Colorado Blue]

50. You'll notice something striking about that terror list: the

incredible increase in violence AFTER the Oslo Accords, which were supposed to help bring peace and reconciliation, were signed.

[Colorado Blue]

49. Here's a now incomplete list, from 1949-2005.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisrael.html

There's plenty of history on attacks on Middle Eastern Jews, dating from 1900, throughout the area and not just in the Palestine Mandate. Check it out. You can research this in any encyclopedia but if you can't find any articles I'll provide some.

Obviously there were more in previous centuries but let's just stick to modern times.

You might also get some eye-opening on the ethnic cleansing of the Middle East, in which ancient Jewish communities, some 900,000 people, lost their homes, businesses, livelihoods, after 1948. Approximately some 600,000 people wound up in Israel, about 300,000 in the New World and elsewhere. And today I don't want to hear the yeah buts about the aliyah, how people wanted to go to Israel etc. I'm not in a good mood following today's terror bombing, I've about had it up to here with these terror bombings that are claiming the lives of innocent people all over the world, and I've about had it with the concept that these bombings have what to do with Palestinian statehood. They don't.

[Coastie for Truth]

14. Demographics of the audience.

That's called "Journalism 101 for Dummies"

[madrchsod]

7. since this article comes from a

right wing consecrative magazine in england i find it very suspect. then i have no way to even form an opinion on the article because all the references are about what is going on in england. i have no way to verify those references.
both young ladies died because old corrupt men had decided to wage a religious semite tribal war over the land that god promised to no one.

[barb162]

8. Rising UK anti-semitism blamed on media

(Well, then try this in reference to the points about UK media bias against Israel mentioned in the "left wing" Guardian)

Rising UK anti-semitism blamed on media

Chris McGreal in Jerusalem
Tuesday January 25, 2005
The Guardian

Britain suffered the sharpest rise in anti-semitic attacks of any country last year, and British press coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a leading cause, according to an Israeli government report.

snip

The total number of incidents in Britain rose to 304 from 163 a year earlier when verbal assaults, damage to property and swastikas daubing were taken into account. The report has been relased as Israel focuses on anti-semitism to mark the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz.

Mr Sharansky attributed the British figures to "years of hostile reporting and commentary about Israel in the British press now spilling into the streets".

His officials singled out the Guardian and the BBC, accusing them of "likening Israel to a Nazi state". The Independent was also criticised.

snip

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1397723,00.html

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

12. The article was full-on right-wing drool...

Which is to be expected, considering its source. What I did spot straight away is the total bullshit about the ISM, obviously written in order to try to justify the killing of Rachel Corrie...

Violet...

[Englander]

15. Here's one example of a flat-out lie, about the ISM -

The claim from Gross's article, which is oft-repeated, and is
a fabrication;

--According to the 'media co-ordinator' of the ISM, Flo Rosovski, '"Israel" is an illegal entity that should not exist' — which at any rate clarifies the ISM’s idea of peace.--

The origin of this is that 'Flo Rosovski', someone claiming to
be a member of the ISM, and claiming to be Kristin (Flo) Razowsky,
(note the mis-spelling of the surname), posted some comments on
the open comments section of the NYC indymedia website, two years
ago;

Google cache of the page -
http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:GOR67fpQ0T4J:nyc.indymedia.org/newswire/display/56558+Flo+Rosovski&hl=en

If you scroll all the way down to the bottom of the page,
the real flo razowsky had this to say -

-- greetings. i am the one arrested in beit sahour last friday while in the ism media office.
for some reason there are several comments posted using my name. the dates of these postings are when i was actually in detention and had no access to email. i just want to set the record straight that this is the first time i have commented. please come up with a different psuedonym if you don't want to use your real name.
you can view my statement of what happened on the minnepolis indy media site. thanks--flo--

Although to be fair to Gross, 'Flo Rosovski' who-ever they are,
does actually write that
--"Israel" is an illegal entity that should not exist and as such it has no right to deport anyone.--

Kristin (Flo) Razowsky did not.

[Violet_Crumble]

42. I hadn't seen that before...

Sad thing is that people will continue to trot out that particular lie even after it's been so solidly proven to be malicious....

Violet...

[Englander]

43. It certainly is malicious -

the language Gross uses about this incident, the 'according to'
& the quotes, indicate that he's probably aware of the origin of
this claim, & sadly, continues to repeat the lie, & suggests it's
the policy of the ISM.

[barb162]

47. I disagree. If this woman's death wasn't mentioned in British

newspapers, then that's a very sad fact about how Britain's press is slanted.

[Bombtrack]

54. Actually one of them died because she stood in front of a moving bulldozer

willingly.

Or maybe I just didn't catch the news about the Israeli brainwash foreign activist chicks into thinking they can stop a moving bulldozer act of 2003, in the news.

[Crunchy Frog]

11. Maybe it's that people have different expectations

of Islamic terrorists vs. the Iraeli government. Or rather, it is expected that terrorists will blow up innocent civilians and particular individuals who get blown up are not considered newsworthy, whereas, generally people don't tend to expect agents of the Israeli government to run over unarmed young women with bulldozers, thus it is considered newsworthy when it happens. Maybe it's wrong to have these different expectations, I don't know.

My guess is that Rachel Corrie would have gotten at least as much coverage if she had been Jewish.

This is just my own personal hypothesis. Any death of an innocent person in this kind of violence is horrific and tragic.

[pelsar]

18. the different expections...is what its all about...

we dont expect the usual western values from the various jihadnikim..nor even from the PA...hence the difference in the news.

Corrie gets famous for attempting to block a military operation using herself is considered morally brave, while the other blown to bits while eating pizza is simply "run of the mill".

the different expectation I understand...what I dont get is..if the "world" has such low expectations from the palestenian society, how is it that they then expect israel to let them make a state right next door?

If the palestenain society celebration of blowing up innocent people is "morally acceptable" to intl standards....as so it seems to many....what kind of society are they making?..and why are those lower standards acceptable?

[idontwantaname]

19. this post was rude so i deleted it. n/t.

[Englander]

21. I can understand why any post would be rude, idontwantaname

I can't believe that the attitudes expressed in post #18
were written at a forum that is predominitely left-leaning.

[pelsar]

22. racist?....

racism is when one has different standards for the palestenain society and one for israel.....racism is where the various suicide bombers are "excused" for targeting civilians...for whatever the reason while the IDF soldier accused of genocide, targeting chilren etc and are condemed for it....Racism is when the palestenians shoot/kidnap internationals and journalists...nobody says a word....when it happens with the IDF, front line news

racism is when the UN cant even name and blame the various jihadnikim for creating and maintaining a society that celebrates sucide bombers...but can condem israel for selected assassinations.

Try using a single moral yardstick to measure the palestenain society vs israel.....

who looks for to kill as many people as possible, using kids to carry bombs and babies?
who is it that celebrates those same killings?

which soceity drags bodies in their streets? hangs people from lamposts? kidnaps foreigners?

its racism to excuse such a society and worse by accepting such a society your condemming the palestenain citizens to a life full of internal terror.....not that anybody really cares about that, other than israel (since their failure will cost us plenty)

[idontwantaname]

24. actually...

if an african american kills a police officer in compton you can expect the entire police force to "crack down" on all african americans. some call this collective reaction racist.

the thing here is the initial crime was committed by a person. an individual... NOT a govt or state... however the "criminal" label/retaliation gets placed on the collective society and not the individual.

[Englander]

44. I didn't actually say that the attitudes in #18 -

which I considered so offensive were racist, you've introduced the
word. I think the comments were shockingly prejudiced, the broadbush
comments about the PA, & society were bad enough, & there was no
attempt to balance the comments, to include mention of the corruption
&tc, in the GOI, & society. You pretty much ignored Crunchy Frog's
point, & introduced a logical fallacy or two. I'd say the comments
were seriously prejudiced, & bordering on racism.

As for these latest comments, I don't recognise the situation as you've
painted it, you're arguing with a straw man.

[idontwantaname]

23. i feel...

after rereading what i wrote i decided the post was inflammatory, off topic and would serve no purpose... the post was merely an attack on the israeli govt.

btw... i received a stat yesterday... apparently the total area of land "withdrawn" in gaza was 19 miles... and in the same month the state of israel confiscated 23 miles of palestinian land in the west bank.

hmm...

[pelsar]

25. my point being..

all societies are NOT equal....is anybody here going to defend Irans version of govt? how about the taliban?....

heres a hypothetical question, which may not be.

whats better for the palestenain:
a society similar to the taliban (hamas 'wet dream")
or continued israeli occupation?

whats better for the israel citizen?
same question

oh and the excuse "its none of our business how the palestenians run their society" doesnt fly...its a cop out. since a violent failed palestenain society will have an direct affect on us in israel. This whole idea of them having their own country is based on the idea that it succeeds and takes care of their own while not attacking israel.

[idontwantaname]

26. actively engaged in ones own society.

it seems here that you want to debate "what ifs" with folks who 1.dont live anywhere in the middle east and 2.have never been there.

why?

do you post here for the PR or to clarify the IDFs actions?

there is no point for me or anyone else to debate how palestinians will run or have run their society because we dont matter. we are not palestinian. we are not part of the process... so what is the point other than spend time in front of a computer. i could be volunteering with FNB feeding the homeless and playing an active role in my own society.

it would be best if everyone could just get along... but this wont happen if you stay on your side and wait for the palestinians to come to you. theyre not even permitted to move freely between jenin and tulkarem!

i have been privileged enough to have met an israeli anarchist yesterday... and he speaks of united bonds with the palestinians and israelis. they protest the wall together... they get tear gassed and shot at together.

you may forget those you have laughed with but you will never forget those you have cried with.

[pelsar]

29. what ifs?...

well i post as an excuse to avoid doing some work....especially today....outside of that, the what ifs are what its all about. Closing one eyes to what might be is not a good idea. Creating a state is not a simplistic thing, nor just becuase the palestenains should goven themselves doesnt mean that they can at this point (i am not refering to the inherent ability of the palestenain...i am refering to their present society. Unless you believe that the taliban were a just society and had every right to goven as they saw fit). I dont believe a failed society will bring peace to anyone in this region. The opposite, a failed palestenian society will bring even more misery to the region....and that possibility should not be ignored.

and we are part of the process...if your part of the process in bringing around that state then you also have a responsability to do what you can to insure that the state they make is one that contains civil rights etc.

do you believe that the citizen palestenain will thank you as the hamasnikim moral squad comes knocking at his door to take out his daughter to be stoned....or will you wash your hands of that kind of interal terror?....thats a cop out.

if your part of the equation that made that state, your also partially responsable for its formation as well...and that we are very very aware of....and in fact that is partially why so many israelis dont join in on the fight against the wall.

[pelsar]

32. i dont understand...

this is the first time i've come across this, so i need some clarification:

the ISM (and others) do not feel any responsability towards the type of society that the palestenains are now forming?


http://www.columbiatribune.com/2005/Oct/20051023News008.asp

[idontwantaname]

33. the ISM is a palestinian led group...

they pledge nonviolence and within their own palestinian communities work to spread the message of nonviolence. the internationals are witnesses. they serve to spread the message internationally at a grassroots level.

im sure many human rights activists would like to help shape a new govt to be as progressive(or more so) as the countries they came from... but the americans wouldve eventually had a civil war one way or another.

-----------------------

kidnappings are wrong no 2 ways about it.

<snip>

The foreign hostages have generally been treated well and released quickly.

American reporter Dion Nissenbaum and British photographer Adam Pletts, seized in Gaza, were served dates, tea and a rice-and-meat dinner. During their 6½ hours in captivity, the hostages watched TV together with their captors, who gave them a baseball cap with the group’s logo as a farewell present.

"Our captors were young and friendly. One wanted me to find him a wife in America. Another said he was a teacher with three kids. A third couldn’t have been more than 22 or 23 and made sure that we were as comfortable as possible," Nissenbaum, a reporter for the Knight Ridder newspaper chain, said in an e-mail account to colleagues.

<snip>

[pelsar]

35. the question...

does the ISM internationals feel they have any responsability towards the new palestenian govt that they are involved in forming?

there is no guaranetee that the forming govt or psudo govt will be anything...it can be a paletenains version of the taliban or not or it can be a model democracy....are even the ISM intl now involved in the far more complex and dangerous aspect of the actual formation of a civil rights oriented govt?

if they are witnesses are we going to start seeing articles from the ISM about the present situation in Gaza?..what the hamas is now doing? the PA?

[idontwantaname]

36. let not be obsessive here...

israel does not want ISM in her borders. the tel aviv ASS' bug computers and cell phones of all suspect ISMers entering and leaving.

theres no chance ISM volunteers will ever have any influence in the design of a palestinian state... israel would never allow it.

perhaps if israel heeds international law in both gaza and the west bank you will see ISM reports about hamas and the PA... but until then ISM has its hands full in the west bank.

[pelsar]

37. thats the problem....

as i understand it, the ISM is only effective "against israel"...against the PA/Hamas/ etc it has no influence...meaning for all you know, you are helping to create a palestenian version of the taliban...or worse.

access to Gaza will be via egypt....if the ISM intl is no longer in Gaza (i dont know), which means if the ISM intl is interested in creating a democratic state which protects the palestenian civil rights they have their work cut out in gaza....to be witnesses and to report. (not act as human shields). If ISM intl was in gaza last year..they can be in gaza now.

If the ISM intl is doing nothing in gaza and has decided that they are no longer interested in the govt that is forming in gaza...then that would confirm the israelis govt and many of its citizens beliefs.....that the ISM intl doesnt care if the emerging state is a failure, if its hamas controlled or just the classic dictatorship....they just want us out.

since such a state would continue to threaten us and our citizens its not in our interests to allow such a state to exist.....and yes we have that right...since a failed state may continue to attack us, we would then have to spend many more lives going back.

The emerging palestenain state has to have a good chance of succeeding otherwise all we get is more bloodshed...that said if the ISM intl is not interested in that aspect, will not aid the palestenains in that aspect of their fight...then it appears the ISM intl may actually be aiding in the creation of a taliban style govt...leading to further misery and terrorism, both internal and external

shall we be blunt?.....we all know that the ISM intl will not be gaza to fight for the palestenains....we know that the Hamas etc wont have a problem wasting a ISM intl...nor will it get much press, nor will there be anybody to sue...we also know that the ISM will not report about the kidnappings and killings in Gaza, Nor will they protest against egypt keeping the border closed.......it would make them look like "useful idiotes".

what is comes down to, is that the ISM intl is not really concerned with the upcoming palestenain govt nor the civil rights of its citizens..nor for that matter any long term peace in the region....the sole short term goal is getting israel out....that in itself is a good goal, but by ignoring what may come next is both foolish and dangerous.....

[idontwantaname]

38. foolish and dangerous

pelsar, israel sealed gaza off to ALL outsider presence while illegal military actions and home demolitions were going on... and you dont seem too concerned with this.

what did you think was going to happen with all those palestinian families?... they just disappear with their homes?!

please do not lecture me about the now "emerging" palestinian state in gaza and blame intls or ISM for ANYTHING! those who served in the IDF, who knew about the destruction of homes in the most densely populated place on earth should not look to anyone but themselves for the solution.

the palestinians are not permitted to leave the borders of the west bank or gaza to tell the harsh realities of what happens in their daily lives. ISM and CPT risk injury and death to report what really goes on in gaza, hebron and nablus.

if anyone is to be labeled for not doing their share for peace its the irsaeli public who choose to continue expansion in the west bank and ignore new formed relationships between israelis and palestinians against the wall.

[pelsar]

39. times have changed.....

i dont blame the intl....they've done a lot of good .....one good turn deserves another. We've left gaza....thats what the israeli public has done. (with the "help of the intl and hamas")

now were watching to see what emerges, for that is the first step. If what emerges is a taliban style govt...what have you acomplished?

(the israeli public doesnt trust the PA/Hamas/jihad etc...and is watching gaza to see what emerges...in their lies the long term future of the region)

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Coastie for Truth]

30. Kind of Like the British Governors

urging impalement of Sikh rebels in the Punjab.

Punishment had gradually ceased to be a spectacle", Foucault has written of France (and Europe) in the first half of the nineteenth century; the "age of sobriety in punishment had begun." In the colonies, however, indulgence not sobriety marked the white man's behavior. Neill was scarcely alone among the great heroes of the Mutiny, the saviours of India, in visiting upon the 'rebels' the choicest horrors that man can imagine. John Nicholson, who repulsed the rebels at Delhi, urged the passage of a bill "for the flaying alive, impalement, or burning of the murderers of the women and children at Delhi". As he was to explain, "the idea of simply hanging the perpetrators of such atrocities is maddening"; more significantly, "torturing the murderers of the women and children" was, in his books, "a Native custom", one that the reform-minded British aiming to civilize the natives were bound to follow. At Peshawar, on 10 June 1857, quite early in the Rebellion, many of the captured rebels were blown away from the barrels of artillery guns. Such examples of retaliatory and 'disciplinary' brutalities could easily be multiplied; however, it is the precise form of the punishment conceived by Neill, and the language employed by him to describe it, which marks out the incident of the Bibighur especially as the referential point for our investigations into General Dyer's 'crawling order', its etiology and signification.

BTW - you left out the passage ---->

An Israeli lawyer who did not want to be named said while the contract might appear legal, it would be rejected if challenged in court. "The point is that a Chinese worker will agree to anything and then will not have anyone to help them if there is a problem," he said.

[idontwantaname]

34. welcome to the 19th century where the new black is yellow. n/t

[pelsar]

31. wouldnt stand up in court....

a country that has legalized that status of gays....is hardly going to uphold such a contract....

[Coastie for Truth]

28. ??? Appear every day on I/P -

Israelis can do no right!
Palestinians can do no wrong!

Hamas is legitimate and always right -
Peace Now is a collection of ineffective wimps who speak for a vestigial minority.

Appear every day on I/P.

[Colorado Blue]

51. Why is a "left-leaning" forum NOT supposed to respect the

inherent adulthood and dignity of the Palestinians? I believe it is racist to expect them NOT to be equal to Israelis or Brits or anybody else, and similarly to demand that their society reflect this.

We're talking about people who will have a state, who will be self-determining. Why are we considering them less than equal? THAT'S racist.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Colorado Blue]

53. I agree. Thanks for pointing out that this sort of attitude is

actually quite colonialist, another way of saying, the Palestinians or Africans or Pakistanis - whoever - are just "WOGS" after all and can't be expected to behave like US. So after all we should EXPECT violence, chaos and a lack of national or social creativity.

That's a disgusting attitude. We see that at home, in regard to the poor people here, and it's just as upsetting. People must be regarded as equals in order to BE equals.

I also find it extremely upsetting that some left-wingers, including Pappe for one, seem to feel that no reconciliation is possible between Israelis and Palestinians, even though people have reconciled after suffering far worse - the people of Europe for example. I've seen photos of Germany after WWII, it was practically destroyed, millions were killed in that war - tens of millions - yet Europe isn't at war, nor are Jews or Gays and Gypsies blowing up Germans in revenge for the Holocaust, and even in Rwanda reconciliation between Hutus and Tutsis was accomplished beyond what people might have expected given the horror that erupted there just a few years ago.

So why are we continuing to fan the flames of this conflict? Even back in the '50's, people were already complaining that the Palestinian refugee camps were open sores, and I understand that in Lebanon, for just example, Palestinians still aren't allowed to own property or hold jobs and immigration restrictions against them still apply in most of the 22 Arab League states.

Those camps don't belong in the modern world. People should have been cared for, compensated for their losses, provided with a fresh start decades ago. And most disturbing of all, the cold black and white numbers show increasing violence and death since the Oslo Accords were signed. Making peace apparently is simply anathema to certain elements. And who does this hurt the most?

REAL progressives will be trying to bridge the gap between people, and not increase them. It is incredibly difficult, I understand - but sometimes simply an optimistic outlook can work wonders. And sometimes people have to be practical. Maintaining an entire population as political pawns is just wrong. It's high time left, right, center, Arab and Israeli, Christian, Muslim and Jew started working TOGETHER to solve these problems.

Compared to some of the challenges we face as a planet, for example the destruction of our environment, the Arab/Israeli conflict is small potatoes. It should NEVER be used as an excuse for some sort of global holy war, or to demonize one group of people or another, or - heaven forbid - to advocate the instigation of another Holocaust, as the Iranian president has done.

Let's get a move on already, before it's too late.

[Coastie for Truth]

20. "Man Bites Dog" situation.

That's kind of racist to have lower standards for Palestinians.

[Lithos]

55. Locking per I/P guidelines

Two reasons

1) New threads must be based on a recently-published news item or op-ed piece. They may not be based on editorial cartoons or photographs. Citations and references should include a link to the original source. Exceptions will be allowed if, based on prior approval, the moderators feel a thread is appropriate.

2) Any hope of continuation of an exception is over considering the tone of the dialogue makes further continuation inappropriate.

Lithos
I/P Forum Moderator