Police groups issue warning about "cop killer" gun now on the streets

[Lefty48197]

My good friends at the Brady Campaign made this news available to us. It seems there is a handgun that is now available for sale on the streets, which had previously been available only to law enforcement and military personnel. A couple of retired cops test fired some shots into a bullet resistant vest. The vest stopped the 9mm, the 40 cal, the shotgun pellets and the slug. The cop killer gun penetrated the vest both times.
I think there are two ways to look at this issue: There is the viewpoint of most liberals that a gun/bullet that will penetrate police body armor has no place on America's streets. The Republicans/NRA will take the position that we must make this gun available to their members, in case the police that come to their homes are wearing body armor.

http://www.bradycampaign.org/press/release.php?release=621

" Three leading police organizations today urged police nationwide to be on the lookout for a small, easily concealable handgun that fires bullets that penetrate soft body armor, calling the gun an immediate threat to law enforcement officers. They also urged Congress to take appropriate action to help deal with the threat.

The groups, the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives (NOBLE), International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP), and the International Brotherhood of Police Officers (IBPO), announced their alert at a press conference at a district headquarters of the Metropolitan Washington D.C. Police Department"

"We need to realize that the individuals who would be most interested in acquiring this firearm are criminals who want to be able to stop a police officer," said Deputy Chief Brian Jordan of the Metropolitan Washington D.C. Police Department."


Here's a link to the video:
http://www.bradycampaign.org/ler/fnh/

Here's a link to the gun manufacturer's website:
http://www.fnherstal.com/html/Index.htm

"FN HERSTAL's products are destined exclusively to governmental, military and law enforcement agencies.

<snip>

Any use, possession, import, export of firearms, ammunitions, weapon systems and similar products is subject to governmental regulation."

...or not.

[slackmaster]

1. Without special ammo that cannot be imported, it won't pierce body armor

There are several types of ammunition made for the FN Five Seven. The kind on which the MARKETING claim that the gun can pierce body armor is based, is regulated and not importable to the US except for military and law enforcement use.

The gun fires a small-diameter bullet at relatively high velocity. Its ballistics are interesting, and with a bullet that has a hard core it is certainly more effective against body armor than most handguns are. But its power is far less than many other guns, and the lack of availability of the armor-piercing ammunition makes that capability irrelevant as a danger to US law enforcement people.

[Lefty48197]

7. In other words: When armor piercing bullets are outlawed

then only outlaws will have armor piercing bullets. So all we have to do is get the criminals to agree to obey the law that bans the cop killer bullets.

[slackmaster]

14. That's about the size of it

The situation with the FN Five Seven available to the general public and AP ammo for all handguns regulated is exactly the same as it was before the Five Seven became available.

[CarinKaryn]

2. The gun nuts must be very happy...

they've now got "another tool in the toolbox" as they say. Who knows when you will have to defeat a bullet proof vest to save the empire?

[-..__...]

5. You'll be happy to know...

that because of the "controversy", and FN's decision to pull civilian sales of some ammo, prices for the FiveseveN have gone up, and the ammo supply has dried up... (some FN owners I know of have been purchasing ammo in 1,000 round cases :headbang: ).

[-..__...]

3. Old news and hot topic in firearms related forums.

I figured it was only a matter of time before someone started flapping their arms about it here.

Since Brady & Co lost big time on the AWB and other "key" gun control related bills, the FN FiveseveN ban has become their "new cause for concern".

As per usual, they're making a big fuss over nothing. The gun itself goes for about $900.00. They've been available for sale on the civilian market for some time now.

There are other handguns that can easily penetrate a bullet resistant vest.

The problem (if there is one), mostly concerns the ammo.

There's several different types of ammo available for it: AP (Armor Piercing), JHP (Jacketed Hollow Point), etc.

The BATFE issued the following statement.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearmstech/fabriquen.htm

FN has halted civilian sales of the SS192 (SS190, 191 and 193 ammo was never legal for civilian sales in this country).

I'm willing to bet that it's only a matter of time before FN halts FiveseveN sales because of the controversy.

Personally speaking... before all this outrage began, I had no interest in buying a FiveseveN, now with all the talk of a ban, I have this insatiable urge to go out and buy one. :evilgrin:

[virginia mountainman]

4. grrrrrrrrr

“There is the viewpoint of most liberals that a gun/bullet that will penetrate police body armor has no place on America's streets.”



Nearly ALL Rifles more powerful than a .22 rim fire, will cut thru both sides of most bulletproof vest like a hot knife thru butter and those are WIDELY available and amazingly common; do you propose banning them too??

By your logic, yes they should be banned, and when you try, we will lose ground in the senate and congress, this is not pie in the sky, this IS FACT

Let alienate MORE rural voters with pure B.S.

I am sorry, but when I read that posting, as someone that KNOWS firearms, I can see that you know NOT what your talking about..

As a life long Democrat, and Bill of Rights activist, this is getting old, and I am begin to get tired of being constantly under attack by people that are supposed to be my allies.

Andrew

[Lefty48197]

8. Hell, even that big assed shotgun slug didn't go through the vest

it almost did, but it didn't. Do you expect me to believe that one of them little old harmless .223 gopher rounds would penetrate a soldier's, or a law enforcement officer's body armor?
And if that's the case, why are we Democrats raising such a stink about the fact that Team Bush isn't getting enough body armor to our troops? Should we sell all the body armor and use the money for more tax cuts or something?
Those Iraqi insurgents are "only" shooting varmint rounds at our troops, so body armor should be unnecessary.













(btw everybody, I know that the kid isn't holding a .223 weapon, so the "you know who you are" crowd will kindly spare me their sanctimony)

[virginia mountainman]

10. YES,

You’re exposing more of yourself not knowing what you’re talking about,

NEARLY ALL RIFLES will “slice and dice” a typical bullet proof vest

The LARGE diameter and slow speed of a 12 gauge slug would not penetrate, BUT a common 12 ga. sabot slug, that most hunters use on LARGE game would possible penetrate It is all in energy transfer, small and fast is much more penetrate than big and slow

The point is, you don’t know what you’re talking about, and it is transparent to ANYONE that knows guns at all.

People like you, on the nightly news or on the “Rosy O’Donnell show” and the like, are costing rural democrats they seats. I live in rural America, Democrat is a dirty word down here, and guns is a large part of that reason.

If you want to wage a jihad against gun owners, fine, but do it with FACTS and not with pure unadulterated B.S. that is so simple to shred into tatters and expose for what it really is.

BTW, you will find LESS lies at a repuke convention than on Brady’s website.

Simply put………….Your source is suspect…………….

Andrew
Defender of ALL the Bill of Rights

BTW, I own several rifles, some of which LOOK like that one in the photograph you posted

[Lefty48197]

11. Will hunting rifles put a bullet through body armor

as easily as an assault rifle will?

[Lefty48197]

12. You dummy!

You don't know what the hell you're talking about! Assault rifles and hunting rifles are not mutually exclusive! What an ignoramus.

Oh, wait. I'm sorry. Did I post out of turn? Was this supposed to be someone else's line?

[virginia mountainman]

16. i want some of that!

DUDE, pass me some of what you’re smoking!!!

I will give you 10 seconds to tell me everything you know about guns,

Hunting rifles are FAR MORE POWERFUL than “so called” assault rifles, this is easily proven fact.

Please, stop calling me names, it anit my fault you know NOTHING of what you speak about

Andrew

[Lefty48197]

19. Guns equals freedom

and guns don't kill, peoples do.

[Retired AF Dem]

26. Guns dont kill people

husbands that come home early do.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lefty48197]

29. By the way

Don't ever give me ten seconds to do anything ever again. You are not my boss, my jailkeeper, OR my mother. Please don't feel that you have a right to give me commands, because doing so would be a mistake on your part.

[virginia mountainman]

21. easier, MUCH easier than assault rifles

Look, I am not gona argue with you about your falsehoods


Here are some BALLISTICS information, hard numbers in 3 calibers

.223, a common low power, assault rifle, and pinker round

30-06 a VERY common deer round, the second most popular rifle hunting round probably

.38SPL the MOST common pistol round

The ammunition is Federal, which is a VERY popular ammunition brand

This is measured in FOOT pounds at a hundred yards, I.E. the amount of weight the round could theoretically move one foot on inpact,

223…………..1070 Foot pounds

30-06 ………….2720 foot pounds, (NEARLY 3 TIMES as powerful as the .223 round)

38Spl………… 105 foot pounds at 100 yard, LOL, a JOKE compared to the rifles at 25 yards, it ONLY packs 150 foot pounds, LOL still a PIP SQUEAK


as I said, get FACTS before you step into the ring with someone that knows

So yes, a hunting rifle packs a HELL of a lot more power than an assault rifle

CASE CLOSED, because you can’t argue with the facts.

Andrew

[Lefty48197]

30. This is absolutely ridiculous

Another gun nut trying to tell us that the .223 is a "common low power" "plinking" round. How dumb do you guys think we are?
If you know so much about guns, then you'll know that the US military standard issue rifle round is the .223. What the hell do you think they issue that round to our soldiers for? Hunting squirrels, or killing people?
And if they're to be used to kill people, then why in the hell would the US military only issue "plinking" ammunition? Is this another example of a military underfunded by NRA hero, George Bush?

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Township75]

42. This is getting entertaining...

and thanks for the informative post....lets see if Lefty can provide us with an informative response to your post.

[MrSandman]

43. The .223 goes on forever?...n/t

[Lefty48197]

61. I don't know whether I'm crunchy when cooked

I've never had an NRA member shoot me and cook me. Please ask some of your friends for the results of their 'experiments'. Perhaps they know more about the "crunchiness" of cooked human beings.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Township75]

80. Yeah, yeah, great...

now can you respond to the points he brought up in his post earlier?

[MrSandman]

81. Just trying improve the level of discourse...

To promote unity.

[Lefty48197]

56. I have a lot of problems with this post:

I'll take them one at a time:

1) "LOL, took you about 25 seconds to type that, I was feeling generous and allowed it!"

There you go again. YOU don't "ALLOW" me to do ANYTHING, so your imagined level of generosity is irrelevant. I will post as I feel fit, without any need to ask you to "allow" me so. Please accept the fact that my free speech rights do NOT exist because of your good grace. Further belief that you have the ability to control my thoughts or words, or that you have the power to control when I will speak, will be considered evidence of delusional behavior.

2)"It wounds the enemy; it doesn’t kill them nearly every time like the old 30 caliber rifles did, take more enemy off the battlefield, to care for the wounded"

Let me get this straight: When US soldiers are in combat, they shoot an enemy soldier ONCE, and then leave them wounded, so that several of the wounded soldiers' buddies will have to come help him? Do you really expect me to believe that? Human nature dictates that a soldier KILL anybody who wants to kill them. I'm only guessing, but I'll bet US soldiers put dozens of bullets through enemy soldiers, before walking away from the DEAD body. Please don't give me that "they try to wound soldiers and then walk away from them crap", it just DOES NOT happen.

3) "but the game warden will write you some big tickets if he catches you in the woods with a .223 caliber rifle during deer season."

Carry a rifle, ANY rifle into the woods during Michgan's deer season, and see what the game warden has to say about it. It's illegal to hunt deer in Michigan with a rifle, in the areas where about 95% of the state's population lives. They're not going to ask what caliber it is.

4)"And please stop calling me names, is this all the Brady Bunch can do??
And for the record, I DON’T THINK you’re dumb, your words speak for themselves
And what’s this about me being your boss/mother/jailer
I am not your boss; I would be compelled to fire you for being so intolerant and disrespectful to polite people that obviously know much more about certain subjects than you do, Any form of intolerance in MY subordinates will not be accepted.
I spoke to your mother last night; she said she wanted you to clean your room, take out the trash, she was also was upset that you stopped up the crapper................again.
And your jailer is all upset since you bugged out on your work detail, said something about turning the hounds out.
Also remember that I did not bring those people into this conversation, YOU did .
Careful who you threaten, I bet you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup"

As for the entirety of those last comments, please refer to my earlier post about Jr. High School debate skills.

Here's the problem: Many of the gun nuts fall into the category of gun nuts who feel that gun ownership gives you some sort of authorative power. It doesn't. They think that they can scream and shout at those they disagree with, and that their screaming will silence us. It won't happen, but that won't stop the nuts from trying the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result.

(P.S., I just realized that you referred to yourself as a "polite person". Thank you for helping me start off the day with a big smile!)

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lefty48197]

76. Your style of argumentation is entertaining

The first thing you did is respond to something that I never said. You spent several posts screaming at me for pretending to know lots of stuff about guns. The only problem is that I've never made that claim. You then went on to rebut that claim (that I never made) several times over. Then, when you were finished rebutting the claim (again, that I never made) you declared victory for the way you had successfully rebutted that claim, that once again, I never made.
Then you went on to attack me for threatening you, even though a threat was never made.

[alwynsw]

57. One more item for your list:

Cost! The .223 is cheaper tp produce, package, and transport because of its size.

[Lefty48197]

60. Please explain where you read a threat from me:

"Careful who you threaten, I bet you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup"
You words, on the other hand, sound like a typical gun nut threatening to shoot anybody who disagrees with them.
When you thought you heard a threat from me, were you perhaps hearing voices that weren't actually there?

[virginia mountainman]

63. perhaps Texas Pete???

“Don't ever give me ten seconds to do anything ever again. You are not my boss, my jailkeeper, OR my mother. Please don't feel that you have a right to give me commands, because doing so would be a mistake on your part.”

HMMMMM, a veiled threat maybe??

LOL I said NOTHING of shooting you, which would show malice on my part, just wondering out loud about your texture and going with some ketchup!!

Andrew, An HUNGRY Defender of the Bill of Rights

[Lefty48197]

66. Pointing out error that you have made is not a threat

Just because you think of "making a mistake" as a threat to shoot, does not make it reality. Furthermore, when you went on to threaten to cook and eat me for "threatening" you was a continuation of your earlier mistake.

[solinvictus]

36. .223/5.56 NATO

It's a high velocity cartridge that had it's predecessor in the .222 Remington, used out West to take coyote. Now, it's being shown in Iraq that the .223 is well underpowered for urban combat. A .223 cartridge WILL NOT penetrate brick, sometimes even sheetrock or plaster masonry will absorb the energy and make the bullet ineffective. Read "Blackhawk Down" to get an idea of the effectiveness of the round. Using SS-109 AP ammunition, US forces in Somalia found that despite leaving an entry and exit wound, the round's energy was not creating tissue trauma, the factor involved in stopping an assailant or enemy combatant. Yes, despite your protest, .223 is a common plinking round with many people using some form of either the AR-15 or a Ruger Mini-14 to do so.

[virginia mountainman]

38. great post!

absolutly correct

I hate blatant falsehoods, just give me the FACTS

I honestly can't belive he is still trying to defend his position

Andrew

[Factoid]

48. .223 Remington (5.56 NATO)

.. The cartridge was derived from the .222 cartridge, which was originally designed and used as a Varmint rifle (Killing of small game). The USAF adopted it not because of it's massive killing power, (which it lacks, and which Airmen on Air Force bases stationed in the US don't particularly NEED, as their cheif concearn is a bunch of hippies trying to sabotage F-104's), but rather it's ease of shooting - It's an extremely flat trajectory, and light recoil, which means pretty much anyone can shoot it well. The AR-15 (Armalite Rifle model 15, a followup design to the Armalite Rifle model 10) is a very light rifle, with the bore being very close to centerline, making it also Very easy to shoot accurately. A considerable advantage to Air Force personel on guard duty, over the older M-14 Rifle, which shoots the .30-06 cartridge, something of a bear in terms of recoil. This is why Curtiss LeMay went over the pentagon's head, and ordered a bunch of them for the Air Force, for use in guard duty. About this time, Robert Macnemera (sp?) was trying to standardize the US Armed forces, IE, "why can't the Army and Marines use the SAME equiptment, and the SAME aircraft", etc etc. Examples of this standardization are the F-4 Phantom fighter (Used by the Air Force, Marines, and Navy).
The question was raised, "If this gun is good enough for the Air Force, why isn't EVERYONE using it?" The answer is simple - Because it isn't the BEST solution to every problem. It lacks the long-range punch that the Marines and the Army like. But, the order was given that EVERYONE will use the new rifle, and so they did - which led to immense problems, including the now famous Jamming problems (Due to Robert's decision that "If the gun needed a chrome lined chamber, it would have been given one" - A hunting rifle designed for the american southwest is NOT designed for the jungles of southeast asia. Seems common knowledge now, but....)

The US used it's political influence with NATO to ramrod the .223 cartridge through as the standard NATO cartridge, when it was in fact vastly inferior to other intermediate cartridges being tried by other countries. The Pentagon is JUST NOW starting to rethink the use of the .223 round, with all the reports of it's innefectiveness in Iraq; which, after Vietnam (where the reports of it being innefective were forcefully ignored by Robert macnemera), is the only time it's seen real Combat.


So. Once again, Knowledge of HISTORY and the actual firearms in question, has taken your statement of "OBVIOUSLY IT'S A POWERFUL KILLING ROUND THE MILITARY USES IT!" and tossed it right out into the trash where it belongs.

So the question is asked, How dumb do *YOU* think you are now? Ignorance is one thing; Continued WILFUL ignorance is another. Which path do you choose? Is it the path the Democratic Party should continue to choose?

[virginia mountainman]

62. Factoid posts a FACT

very very true!

One minor mistake and an understandable one, the M14 is a .308 not a 30-06, it got confusing in the 50's as their both referred to as “30 caliber” rifles, which they are, just different case lengths.

For those who are undoubtedly confused by these;

The .308 round was developed out of the 30-06 round, both where used by the military, the older 30-06 was the “30 caliber” round of WW2 and Korea, the .308 was the “30 Caliber” round of the Vietnam era, and is still used today in the “240”(not certain of the correct designation) Machinegun, successor to the M-60, also a .308 caliber weapon

The 308 is nothing more than a shortened 30-06, they both fire the same projectile, with the .308 being slightly less powerful than a 30-06

Andrew

[Charon]

91. 308

I believe that the 308 is the Winchester designation. the Nato designatin is 7.62 by 56.

[benEzra]

92. Actually the .308 is 7.62x51mm

and was/is the round used in the M14 rifle, the M60 machine gun, and others.

The two cartridges (.308 and 7.62x51) are dimensionally interchangeable, but the military specs are slightly different from the SAAMI civilian specs, as I recall (I think the civilian-spec hunting ammunition is slightly more powerful than milspec, meaning if full-power hunting loads are used in a 7.62x51 rifle with a milspec chamber, you need to watch for signs of excessive pressure and/or adjust the gas system so the action doesn't cycle too hard).

[VTMechEngr]

99. Is the .308 the same as the 7.62mm?

[benEzra]

100. There are lots of 7.62mm rounds...

all having nominal 7.62mm (.30 caliber) bullet diameters:

7.62x39mm (.30 Russian Short, reduced-power eastern bloc rifle cartridge)
7.62x51mm (.308 Winchester, also the standard NATO .30 caliber round)
7.62x54R (Russian/Finnish full-power rifle cartridge, formerly the standard Warsaw Pact .30)

Other common .30 caliber cartridges include

.30-30 (ballistically similar to 7.62x39mm)
.30-06 (similar to 7.62x54R; formerly U.S. military round, now most common hunting rifle cartridge in USA)
.30 Carbine (low-powered pistol-type round used in the old M1 carbine)
.30 Mauser (obsolete pistol round, low-powered)
.303 British (former UK military round)

etc.

The eastern bloc .30's generally spec .311", whereas western bloc spec is generally .308". This is close enough that .308" bullets can be used in .311" barrels, and so on.

[brothermak]

102. 7.62

Don't forget the 7.62x25 for the CZ52, Tokarev pistols etc etc
-BM

[MrSandman]

50. The military doesn't always choose "deadly"...

Army officials decided to switch from a .45-caliber sidearm to the 9mm in 1954,...

“The decision to switch was strictly logistical,” he said. “The United States was trying to move toward NATO joint operability, and we were fighting the Cold War. Target effect wasn’t a factor in that decision. Now it is.”

http://www4.army.mil/news/article.php?story=6791

Comments on the change of general issue sidearms caliber.

[Retired AF Dem]

51. You need to also learn some history about firearms

The M-16 and it's 5.56 caliber was forced upon the military in the 60's. Any guess which party was in power? At this time there is a ongoing project to maybe replace the 5.56 to the 6.8 since it has better stopping power than the 5.56.
http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_M468,,00.html

FYI the 223 in considered a varmint round by hunters. You know wood chucks and such. Most hunting experts agree that it takes the same ballistic power to reliably kill a deer or a human and in most states it is not legal to hunt deer with the 223.

[Peak_Oil]

75. You're nuts.

Did you see the numbers posted above? The 30-06 is MUCH more powerful than the .223. Ask any hunter. Fer crissakes.

[turnkey]

82. A less than lethal round...

Some history on the .223. Of course...most of us vetrans know this.

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=3780

[benEzra]

85. Because the low-powered .223 doesn't recoil much in AUTOMATIC WEAPONS...

and it is a fact that the .223 was developed from the .222 Remington varmint-hunting round (e.g., marketed for groundhog and prairie dog hunting). Look at the energy figures I posted above if you don't believe me.

[benEzra]

84. Hunting rifles will penetrate at far greater range...

since "assault weapons" are generally much lower-powered than hunting rifles (and some "assault weapons" like civilian Uzi lookalikes fire handgun rounds that won't penetrate level II or IIIA body armor at all).

What most people don't realize is that police soft body armor (level II or IIIA) is designed to resist common handgun rounds only, NOT rifle rounds. Rifle-proof body armor (proof against everything up through .30-06 military armor piercing) are available but are so bulky that only SWAT teams generally wear them. The vests issued to U.S. troops overseas are rifle-proof up through 7.62x39mm or so, but wouldn't be very comfortable for police patrol use.

BTW, here are some raw energy figures:

.Uzi lookalike (9x19mm)........................450 ft-lb
.AR-15.............................................1,275 ft-lb
.AK-47 lookalike (7.62x39mm)...............1,495 ft-lb
.30-06 deer hunting rifle....................2,900 ft-lb
.375 big-game hunting rifle (.375H&H)...4,230 ft-lb
.577 big-game hunting rifle (.577NE)....7,000 ft-lb

As far as velocity, "assault weapons" also don't rate all that high. Civilian Uzi lookalikes nominally propel a 115-grain bullet at only 1250 to 1350 ft/sec, compared to a .30-06 hunting rifle's 180-grain bullet at 2700 ft/sec. My "AK-47" lookalike throws a 123-grain bullet at 2350 feet per second and the .223 throws a little 55-grain bullet at 3250 ft/sec or a 62-grain bullet at 3000 ft/sec, but a .30-06 hunting rifle can throw a 55-grain bullet at 4080 ft/sec or a 125-grain bullet at 3140 ft/sec.

[DoNotRefill]

94. a hunting rifle will penetrate a vest easier than an assault rifle will...

because assault rifles use "intermediary" rounds, while most hunting rifles utilize large rounds.

It's a matter of velocity. Hunting rifles use a real rifle cartridge, while "assault rifles" use a round that splits the difference between a rifle round and a pistol round.

This is why "assault rifles" have an effective range of around 400 meters, and "hunting" rifles have an effective range of over a thousand meters.

Let's take the "7.62" bullet for example. The pistol round is 7.62x25mm, the "assault rifle" round is 7.62x39mm, and the rifle rounds are either 7.62x51mm (AKA .308 winchester), 7.62x54mm (AKA 7.62 "russian"), or 7.62x61mm (AKA .30-'06). All use generally the same sized bullet, the "7.62" part of the equation, but the second measurement = the case length. The longer the case length = the more powder can be used. The more powder used = the higher the velocity. The higher the velocity = the more kinetic energy released when it hits. So, a person who says he'd rather be hit by a .30-'06 than a 7.62x39 is an idiot, since the .30-'06 has far more energy than the 7.62x39.

[Silverhair]

111. Yes. It is the cartridge that make the difference, NOT the rifle.

The rifle just holds and fires the bullet, then chambers the next round. The diameter and muzzle velocity are the same, no matter if the round is fired from a single shot hunting rifle or from a genuine machine gun.

Almost all hunting cartridges will zip through a vest.

[sierrajim]

114. To answer you question

I have included three different caliber comparisons the most important factor in this table is the energy, why don't you look at these and then you can tell me what will penetrate body armor.

http://www.remington.com/NR/exeres/00001698hfbrrxxcyluokaaq/RemArms+Product+Group.asp?NRMODE=Published&NRORIGINALURL=%2fammo%2fballistics%2fballistics%2ehtm&NRNODEGUID=%7b4F84126C-5E11-4B1F-89E6-95AB18499B6A%7d&NRQUERYTERMINATOR=1&cookie%5Ftest=1

9mm Luger
VELOCITY (ft/sec)
@Muzzle 1155 @50 Yards 1047 @100 Yards 971


ENERGY (ft-lbs)
@Muzzle 341 @50 Yards 280 @100 Yards 241


********************************************************************

7.62x39mm Most so called assault type rifles including AK-47
@Muzzle 2365 @100 Yards 2060 @200 Yards 1780


ENERGY (ft-lbs)
@Muzzle 1527 @100 Yards 1159 @200 Yards 865


********************************************************************

30-06 Springfield Most common hunting caliber in the world for 100 years.

VELOCITY (ft/sec)
@Muzzle 2910 @100 Yards 2617 @200 Yards 2342


ENERGY (ft-lbs)

@Muzzle 2820 @100 Yards 2281 @200 Yards 1827

[virginia mountainman]

13. LOL

BTW, LOL that AK could POSSIBLY be an AK74 variant, that fires basically a 5.45 x 34 round, basically a .223,

And SOME eastern block countries, are making .223 AK’s, they have been making them for YEARS NOW, as they are now part of NATO.

LMAO, as I said you’re exposed for what you are.

Sara Brady, NO BAN FOR YOU!!!

Andrew

[Lefty48197]

15. OK. Since you're a newbie, I'll explain:

It's quite clear that gun nuts will do ANYTHING to silence those that they disagree with. One ubiquitous tactic I've seen in this forum is what I like to refer to as the "I know lots more about guns than you do, so you should just shut up and stop talking about the topic", argument.
Let me make this perfectly clear, just in case you continue to post in this forum: I don't fall for that tactic, so using it is a waste of your time. Move on to another tactic used by the gun lobby to silence their critics. When I recognize one that I don't fall for, I will point it out too. Thanks.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[skippythwndrdog]

24. You may be new, but you sure don't need any help dealing with...

...the ignorant brainwashed anti-crowd. Good work.

[vpigrad]

72. Not a member????

You're using all of their canned lies. Do you really expect anyone to believe that you're not one of them?

[virginia mountainman]

74. hmmm

I believe in ALL the Bill of Rights and I WILL NOT TOLERATE or abide by folks that say they believe in the Bill of Rights just not the 2nd amendment.

I am sorry but when it comes to the Bill of Rights it all or NOTHING in my eyes.

I will defend the constitution to my last breath, I will defend ALL of it, not just the parts I like, and anyone who picks and chooses thru it like a buffet table is being intellectually dishonest and a hypocrite

Point out ANY "canned lie", I am MORE THAN prepared to back them up with facts.

Andrew

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lefty48197]

31. You've contributed a lot to this discussion, MarkH

I'll look forward to more intelligent conversation from you in the future on such topics of interest to Democrats such as, human rights, civil rights, and economic justice. I'm sure you'll have a lot to add to those discussions too.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mark H]

49. How about the sorry state of our health care system

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=222&topic_id=608&mesg_id=615

[benEzra]

87. I hope you don't feel as if I want to "silence" you...

It's quite clear that gun nuts will do ANYTHING to silence those that they disagree with. One ubiquitous tactic I've seen in this forum is what I like to refer to as the "I know lots more about guns than you do, so you should just shut up and stop talking about the topic", argument.

Actually, I don't want to silence you. It's just that if the discussion isn't grounded in the data, it's just rhetoric vs. rhetoric.

The Brady Campaign and the VPC intentionally play to the general public's ignorance of the technical issues involved in order to advance their agenda. That is in no way a criticism of non-gunnies, just an observation. Debate on this issue would be a lot more civil (and productive) if it weren't for the gross technical errors being propagated by the prohibitionists.

(Please see the thread "Dems and the Gun Issue--Now What?" for a bit more on that topic, if you're interested.)

Again, I don't want to silence you. It's just frustrating when people push to restrict MY rights based on basic misunderstandings and/or fearmongering by anti-gun activists.

[RoeBear]

18. I seriously doubt

if a person would survive that shot gun slug, especially if to the chest. At the very least the LEO would be disabled and vulnerable to a follow up by the bad guy.

[virginia mountainman]

22. yep

Roebear, your absolutely right, just the MASS of that slug impacting, even if it did not penetrate, would disable the vest wearer to large extent,

Would at the VERY LEAST, knock him back 10 feet, lay him out on the ground, and knock the wind out of him, at the worst, kill him by smashing his chest like a massive baseball bat

It would not be anything like being hit with a pistol round that is for certain!!

Andrew

[-..__...]

32. That's gonna leave a mark!

I watched the video. The cavity made by the deer slug was pretty impressive. Even with a vest on, being hit with something like that would defiantly ruin your day. I was less impressed with the "exit" holes made by the FiveseveN.

I'd like to see test results conducted by an unbiased 3rd party.

Use ballistic gel instead of a bale of hay as a backstop, and fire SS190 (armor piercing), SS192/SS196 and a 12gauge deer slug for comparison.

[RoeBear]

44. Those weren't exit 'holes'

those were exit 'wounds'.

What's up with anthropomorphizing a bullet resistant vest anyways?

[-..__...]

46. Dude...

you're scaring me with the .25¢ words. "Anthropomorphizing"? :wtf:

Is that Canadian for "stop putting words in my mouth"? :smoke:

[RoeBear]

79. Anthropomorphizing

http://www.answers.com/anthropomorphizing&r=67

an·thro·po·mor·phize (ăn'thrə-pə-môr'fīz')

v., -phized, -phiz·ing, -phiz·es.

v.tr.
To ascribe human characteristics to.

Or if you prefer the Greek difinition:


Ελληνική (Greek)
v. παριστάνω με ανθρώπινη μορφή, αποδίδω ανθρώπινα χαρακτηριστικά

[Retired AF Dem]

25. Shit lefty who needs bans on bullets

http://www.injuryboard.com/view.cfm/Topic=1234
When the manufacturers are making defective vests?

[DoNotRefill]

93. a shotgun slug doesn't need to penetrate a vest to kill....

because it's got so much mass behind it. It still releases it's kinetic energy into the vest (which is why it doesn't penetrate) and the blunt force trauma alone can indeed kill without it actually entering the body.

Imagine being struck really hard by a car. It can stop your heart without entering your body. It's a crush wound instead of a penetration wound, but both can be deadly.

[SheilaT]

6. I thought the point

of all guns was to kill.

I want to ask, so what's so special about this one? Yes, I read the article and understand that it's being seen as more dangerous than other weapons.

But still. In many ways a gun is a gun is a gun. Used correctly, they kill. Isn't that the whole point of having one? Of using one?

[RoeBear]

9. Interesting phraseology..

he refers to "exit wounds' in the vest.

(I'm referring to the Brady's video.)

[RoeBear]

20. What a disgusting comment

(again from the video)

he says that people with a concealed permit could have this gun
and be 'having a bad day' and then assault a LEO.

That is such a filthy , disgusting smear!

[Columbia]

23. Ah yes more Lefty rhetoric

Give more power to the government and less to the people.

Just oozing progressivism.

[Lefty48197]

28. Hey, I'm a Democrat

I never said I was a "Libertarian"

[Columbia]

41. Oh

I didn't know it was a Democratic plank to give more power to the government and less to the people.

I guess you support the Patriot Act then?

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[aikoaiko]

33. Brady Camp selling red herrings.....

....and hyperbole.

imagine that. geeeeeeeeeeesh

[solinvictus]

37. That's because they're desparate...

the Brady Bunch and Million Mommies have been on the downslide for years. The Mommies were evicted from office space, sued, and had to lay off their staff. Gun control is a dead issue and if any nationally prominent Democrats keep pursuing it, they guarantee us more losses at state, local, and national levels.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lefty48197]

77. George Bush supported renewing the AWB

did that result in political gains for Democrats. If not, then what happend to your logic?

[turnkey]

83. As soon as Congress sends it to him.....

...waiting....waiting.... :shrug:

[Billy Ruffian]

86. Bushco said he'd sign an AWB renewal

One theory is that the position was taken to avoid scaring the part of the population that didn't about much about firearms, while risking losing some part of the gun vote. Since the choice was for someone who has voted consistently for more restrictions on firearms, it was a calculated risk.

[slackmaster]

88. GWB's lip service to renewing the AWB was pure pandering

He's more crafty than some here give him credit for.

"Supporting" the AWB seems like a reasonable position to the majority of voters, who either: Favor gun control measures in general, OR think the AW ban was the only thing keeping people from walking into sporting goods stores and buying fully automatic weapons.

But Republican leaders said bluntly that no renewal of the AWB would ever see the light of day in the present Congress. So people who adamantly oppose gun bans had to choose between what they perceived as the lesser of two evils - an incumbent Republican President who supports the RKBA weakly at best, or a liberal Democratic challenger who not only supported the AWB but is an author of a proposed renewal.

His statements about the AWB may have lost him a handful of votes to the Libertarian candidate. Nobody voted for Kerry because Bush said he'd sign a renewal of the AWB.

[Buster43]

101. Another

reason the military went to the 5.56 is the average soldier can carry more rounds on his person than the larger calibers. The .223 is mostly used for varmint hunting and cheap plinking.

[alwynsw]

40. Shhhhh! Don't mention Thompson Center Arms.

When are the crybabies going to jump all over the TC single shots in what are normally rifle calibers?

I have them in .30 carbine, .223 (It just goes on forever), 30-30, and a couple others that have no problem penetrating bullet resistant vests.

[Factoid]

47. What about the CZ 52?

And any other pistol that fires the 7.62x25 Tokerov cartridge? That will penetrate most vests, and it's been available for years.

Or is it simply because it's "New" that makes the FN such a threat?


Why is it that the Brady Bunch are more concearned with a New, $800 pistol being used in crimes, than old, $89 dollar pistols? Which is a criminal more likely to use?


(And has there been a rash of shootings involving the CZ in the last two decades that it's been available?)

It's not about gun control; It's about fear mongering and people control.

Always will be.

[virginia mountainman]

52. SHHH!!

SHHHHHH


Don't let them know about the CZ52, which can be found used for UNDER 100 bucks, and in GREAT condition for under 150!

LOL


In ways I am glad the Brady Bunch is so ignorant of firearms, dooms them to utter ineffectiveness, all they have is scare tactics,that only work in New York, Chicago, and California.

Andrew

[Factoid]

53. What does that say..

about New Yorkers, Chicagoans, and Californians though?

[Torque67]

89. Dangit

Hush, you!

I got 2 of them. And reload for them. Just simply the most gun fun you can have for a hundred bucks. I'm up to over 1600 fps with the 85 grain bullets. I dig my spitzensparkenboomens.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lefty48197]

68. Typical misleading words from the gun crowd:

Every word I posted in the previous post were actual words used by you, directed at me.
Most of the words you posted, were words used by me, making fun of you, yet you chose to post them as if I were directing them towards you. Another error on your part.

P.S. - Did I respond fast enough, or did I exceed your ten second limit?

[virginia mountainman]

69. Typical of a Brady Minion

They where typed by your own hand

Typical of a Brady Minion,

I was pointing out some the more ridiculous things YOU typed

My comments did not need explaining

BTW, I am glad you took my words to heart!

Andrew

[virginia mountainman]

70. qestion for a mod

Just for the record, I don’t know WHY my last post was removed, the only thing it had in it was Lefty’s comments, if they where offensive in that post, why was they not found offensive in HIS posts where he originally made those statements??

This is a VERY valid question that deserves an answer; it was made in the same style as his post pointed at me.

Andrew

EDIT, those most of those other posts are now gone, thanks for being evenhanded mods!Still missed the one where he called me ignoramus though.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[left15]

71. how about a OA-93

<>

It's a pistol that shoots a .223 round.

Since it is classified as a pistol, it should also be covered by CCW laws. I'm suprised we haven't had people calling for a ban of these.

I'm not sure where the ballistics fall for this one, as the data for a .223 is usually for a 24" barrel, and this looks more like 8-10"

I imagine this would go through a vest.


on edit:

it has a 6.5" barrel, and you can buy one for $945 (plus s/h) here:

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=28202846

[left15]

73. not so much the gun as the ammo

the round used is a ss190, and it has a steel core.

This is the same round they use is their famous P90 (as seen the the TV show Stargate SG-1)

the steel core allows it to penetrate a vest, where a standard lead round, which is softer, will deform and spread out, and have a better chance of being stopped by a vest.

[MyMouth]

90. What a surprise...

A vest that is not designed to stop AP in fact, DOES NOT STOP AP.

Think a level 3 or 4 vest would have stopped the five-seven?

Info on what ballistic vests will and will not stop:

http://bulletproofme.com/Ballistic_Protection_Levels.shtml

BTW, the vest they shot at would not have stopped a knife made from tapped flint 10,000 years ago(except for the chest plate). Shall we get along to banning that as well?

[Mayday999]

95. ATF respose to Brady misinformation on Five SeveN

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearmstech/fabriquen.htm


In response to numerous questions that ATF has received regarding the capabilities of the 5.7 X 28mm cartridge, the following technical information is provided.

FTB classified SS196 ammunition as not armor piercing.

The FN 5.7 (Fabrique Nationale) pistol is a semiautomatic pistol in 5.7 X 28 mm caliber.
Type: Double Action Only or Single Action (in Tactical model).
Chambering: 5.7x28mm.
Length: 208 mm
Barrel length: 122.5 mm
Magazine: 20 rounds.

The FN 5.7 (Fabrique Nationale) pistol is a semiautomatic pistol in 5.7 X 28 mm caliber approved for importation as a sporting firearm.

The classification of all ammunition is governed strictly by the definitions presented in the GCA. Specifically, as defined in 18 U.S.C. Section 921(a)(17)(B), the term "armor piercing ammunition" means-

a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or


a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
FTB has also examined a 5.7 X 28 mm projectile that FN Herstal has designated the "SS196." The SS196 is loaded with a Hornady 40 grain, jacketed lead bullet. FTB classified SS196 ammunition as not armor piercing ammunition under Federal firearms statutes.

According to FNH USA, FN Herstal tested the SS192 ammunition. SS192 ammunition did not penetrate the Level IIIA vests that were tested. FNH USA states that SS196, Hornady V-Max 40 gr. bullets fired from a 4-3/4 inch barrel did not penetrate the Level II vests that were used in testing.

FNH USA has informed FTB that SS192 is no longer imported for commercial sale to the United States and that commercial sales of 5.7 X 28mm ammunition are restricted to the SS196 (not armor piercing).

FN Herstal 5.7 X 28mm Ammunition

SS190 - Armor piercing (AP)
SS191 - AP Tracer
SS192 - Hollow Point (not AP)
SB193 - AP Subsonic
SS195 - "Green" - lead free hollow point projectile with copper jacket (not AP)
SS196 - Sporting round (Hornady 40 gr. V-max, hollow point lead), (not AP)
10700004 Blank (not classified as ammunition under Federal law)
10700005 Dummy

[slackmaster]

96. So the Brady Center lied to us again?

Our existing laws and regulations have prevented this Kop Killer menace from hitting our streets, and the Five-Seven Bogeyman doesn't really exist.

I am shocked, SHOCKED!

:nuke:

[turnkey]

104. Shocked and appalled...not! n/t

[Mayday999]

97. Hey Lefty48197...

...why dont you ask your "good friends" at the Brady Campaign why they didnt say a word about the ATF letter? I dont know, maybe its just me but it sounds like they are only giving half-truths again. I mean, why would they fail to report the opinions of experts. Maybe they forgot?

[MrSandman]

98. Don't ya know...

BATF(E) is another arm of the CGI(Corrupt Gun Industry)?

[anonymous44]

103. Good thing I still got some ammo

If they discontinue 192, then I'll probably only shoot it once a year.

[SlipperySlope]

105. Defense vs Offense

Throughout history, the balance of power has shifted between offensive power and defensive power. For roughly two decades at the end of the twentieth century, there was effective personal armour against the then state of the art hand-carried offensive weapons. Just because that technology existed then, does not mean that technological advancement in handguns should cease.

More to the point:
Armor piercing handgun ammunition is *already* regulated.

[davepc]

106. I don't disagree with you

but you had to drag a 9 month old thread up to restate a point made in the 1st reply to the OP?

[SlipperySlope]

107. LOL!

You caught me! I sorted threads by number of responses and started reply-o-matic without checking the dates.

[Subliminal]

108. What's the big deal about the 5-7?

There are many other firearms that can be classified as "cop killers." Why is there such a big deal about one particular firearm?

[davepc]

109. It was boogieman of the day for the VPC and Brady Campaign

They dig up a new one every now and then.

[Silverhair]

110. It is sold ONLY to governments and to the police.

It is NOT for sale to civilians. So what is the problem?

It is sold EXACTLY the same way genuine military guns are sold - to the military & police.

This is panic-mongering.

[davepc]

112. There are civilian five sevens available

I think they run close to $1,000.

But without the SS190 steel core ammo (which is *NOT* available to civilians) it's no different from any other handgun. Well, except for the unusual caliber.

[Burley1]

113. Thats right you can buy one today if you want...

...but what the Scary Bradys dont tell you is that the SS190 ammo is strictly tracked and not available to civilians. EVERY round is accounted for. So yeah, as usual its another Scary Brady sound-bite. Meanwhile the ATF got so tired of answering stupid reporter questions that they posted a counter-Brady release. Its available here...on this thread.

[benEzra]

115. I downloaded the video...

and they are using an obsolete Level IIA vest, which is not even rated to stop .357 magnum. (The Brady guy cites IIIA ratings but it's a IIA vest.)

A FiveSeven will not penetrate Level II or IIIA body armor with civilian ammo.

[Burley1]

116. Video makes me want to buy one!

...I called the local store and they have a FiveseveN for sale. I think I'll go on Monday to buy it. Anything to piss off the Scary Bradys! I figure if they dont want me to have it; I need to buy it!

I think I'll take a picture of it and mail to the Scary Brady Headquarters. Should be good for laughs.

[aikoaiko]

117. Somtimes i wish there were a "nominate this thread to die' button.

but then again, that would kill this forum. lol.