Anything a cop can carry to keep the peace....

[BigDaddyCaine]

a citizen should be allowed to carry to defend himself. I just read this on a different forum. Whats your thoughts on it?

[candy]

1. As the mother of a cop I'm afraid I can't agree with that statement.n/t

[BigDaddyCaine]

2. can you explain why? nt

[Retired AF Dem]

3. As a retired cop

I agree with the starting post. If a cop which is a civilian can carry a firearm for protection than all law abiding tax paying civilians should have the same right.

[candy]

5. Because the thread said ":anything" that a cop can carry---

Some weapons used by law enforcement require specialized training and frankly I don't want to live anyplace where I feel that civilians are armed to the hilt.

The less weapons,the better,IMHO.

[Jack_DeLeon]

10. What kind of things do you think need "specialized training"?

Paintball guns?

It seems that the police killed some girl in Boston with one of those "less than lethal" weapons?

So far I havent killed anyone while I've employed them.

Or do you mean firearms?

I know many people myself included who have never wrongly killed someone with them, yet some police do from time to time.

What kind of weapons do you think require specialized training?

[Extremist]

68. I disagree.

Statistics prove time and time again that guns lower crime.

[Fescue4u]

8. As a father of 3 citizens I have to agree with that statement

Citizens should be able to defend themselves.

[DHard3006]

24. the right to bear arms shall not be infringed!

Why is it people are willing to limit the law-abiding citizen and not the criminals?

A criminal has access to any kind of gun they want simply because the criminals will not obey laws against criminals having guns.

As far as I know most police departments allow their beat officers to carry a handgun and maybe a shotgun. Some police departments now allow their beat officers to carry some rifles. As for being out gunned. Every police officer will be outgunned simply because criminals do not obey the gun control laws forbidding criminals from having guns!
As gun hater sarah brady chants, your daddy’s deer rifle out guns most police officer.

The problem is not law-abiding with guns, the problem is criminals with guns!

The only problem with this logic is the gun haters consider every person with a gun as a possible criminal

[MrSandman]

4. I agree as far as non-automatic weapns...

Auto weapons and less lethal munitions are to effect arrests and impose self in situations needing defused. They are not needed for defense.

[Jack_DeLeon]

11. I disagree...

Paintball guns can be used as less lethal weapons, they can also be used for fun.

Full Auto weapons can be used for fun too.

I already have a paintball gun, I wish I could get a full auto weapon.

[MrSandman]

14. You can...

I wish I could get a full auto weapon.

I was referring to less lethal munitions for a firearm and the use of them in self defense.

I believe the laws on ownership of full auto weapons should be less restrictive. Their use in self defense, IMHO, poses greater problems than it would solve.

[DHard3006]

26. the right to bear arms shall not be infringed!

The 2nd amend is not about defense it is about the right to bear arms!

[Columbia]

6. Agree, sort of

A cop should have the same and only the same weapons available to him as the general public. No more.

[7th_Sephiroth]

7. any weapon

give me an MP5A5 and An MM1 Grenade launcher with some teargas grenades

[illcommandante]

9. I used the same weapon as the cops

but there were two of them. The bikers hired them to see that nothing untoward occurred during the transaction. And other than they tried to rape the waitress, they were on their best behavior. I put one to sleep with a chair and his partner did the same thing to me. Even the bikers had had enough. It took me a few years to haul that pot on my back on dark nights accross the sand. I got attacked by wild dogs in the dark. And that night I crossed the border with it again. The wrong way. Seeing two lanes and two Mexican cops where I'd only seen one before. It was a long time before I saw one of anything again. Whatever the cops get we should get two of.

[gatlingforme]

12. huh? I have no idea what you said or meant.

[TX-RAT]

18. Somebody needs to layoff the mushrooms

[FatSlob]

13. Agreed.

[gatlingforme]

15. as long as they have the proper training as an officer does why not

[alwynsw]

16. I've no problem with that reasoning.

Responsible owners will seek proficiency with the weapons they own.

As I see it, the Darwinian process will relieve society of those who choose not to become proficient.

[LibLabUK]

19. Hmm..

"As I see it, the Darwinian process will relieve society of those who choose not to become proficient."

And those who just happen to get in the way.

[Jack_DeLeon]

25. So be it...

Our constitution and bill of rights werent designed with safety in mind, they were designed with freedom in mind.

Some people may not agree but I think deaths are acceptable to preserve freedom.

Sure our government could do things to protect its citizens from accidents and any other dangers but then we would no longer be free.

[TX-RAT]

17. I think most already do.

Most of your CCW holders carry much the same if not better equip.
Given the opportunity to carry what they wanted, it would be interesting to see their choices.

[FatSlob]

20. My gun is better than the local cops' guns.

They carry Glocks. I carry an XD. flame away!

[TX-RAT]

21. Doesn't surprise me .

Most LEO's carry either a department issue sidearm or a weapon they purchase themselves. Rookie deputy's or policemen usually can't afford top of the line equipment.

[BigDaddyCaine]

22. flaming away

Glock is a proven die-hard gun. XD, thats the springfield 1911 clone??? I shoot a 1911 and its my favorite gun ive ever had. But the glock is proven, the XD is not. So it may be better...and it may not.

[FatSlob]

33. Not a 1911.

Here's a picture:


One hell of a gun, at a great price. Made in Croatia. You can find them at: http://www.springfield-armory.com/prod-xdpstl.shtml

They won handgun of the year from the NRA, and numerous other accolades. They have a trigger safety and a grip safety, along with a loaded chamber indicator and a cocked indicator. I love them.

[pen]

23. Citizens do not need police weapons

Why would a citizen need police weapons? Citizens do not need those high powered, long range, more thrust per squeeze guns.

[alwynsw]

27. Go study firearms and ballistics, then the use of firearms

THEN get back with us on that.

[pen]

30. Ballistics

Why should I? We have the police to protect us.

[BigDaddyCaine]

34. hey man

no trolls in my threads.

[pen]

35. Sorry

I didn't know having a difference of opinion made me a troll.

Have a nice day.

[BigDaddyCaine]

36. It doesnt

but stating obvious untruths to get a rise out of someone does.

[MrSandman]

28. Examples would be????

high powered, long range, more thrust per squeeze guns

[pen]

31. Assault Weapons

All of those evil black rifles with hundreds of bullets.

[MrSandman]

40. That would be kinda heavy wouldn't it...

hundreds of bullets.

Even the EBR's of the US Army only have 20 round magazines. The ones commonly available are semi...same thrust per squeeze.

How does plastic and metal become evil? Is that the antithesis of holy water? Cursed by the high authority of a satanic cult?

[UNIXcock]

47. Blame it on ARFCOM and company!

... those assholes, especially sgtar15

[vpigrad]

54. Sigh

> How does plastic and metal become evil?

When it plows a hole right through your chest! Come-on, start thinking for once.

[RobFalman]

60. Whats wrong with evil black rifles

I have a evil black rifle I would Make a Excellent Defence gun.

[MrSandman]

61. They are not EBR's now....

In the post-9/11 world, they are "Homeland Security Rifles."

[DHard3006]

29. the right to bear arms shall not be infringed!

How many catch phrase words will gun haters come up with? Now we see police weapons. First the gun haters used the ole Saturday night specials name to attempt to ban the guns they did not like! Then we got assault weapons. Also military style weapons, sniper, plastic guns, automatic, and semi-auto guns. The gun haters spout these names every time they demand a ban of the right to bear arms.

The gun haters campaign to ban the right to bear arms can be compared to the people that demanded prohibition. History tells us what this ban did to America!

[pen]

32. Police weapons

What else to call them? If you want to use these things, join the military or police.

[alwynsw]

37. I was in the military.

That's where I widened the range of firearms I enjoy.

If you want to use these things, join the military or police.
That's analogous to saying that if one wishes to read he should get a job in a bindery.

[pen]

38. Join the military

books don't kill people.

If Senator Kerry said it, it is good enough for me.

[alwynsw]

39. books don't kill people

Nor do guns. In all the history of the world not one single person has been killed by a gun. People and nature do the killing. All other things involved are mere implements.

[cajunlib]

41. Kerry didn't say that

Gen. Wes Clark did.

[MrSandman]

42. Details...nt

[iverglas]

43. yeah ...

Details ... never something that the shaggy critters in woolly clothing are too good on.

Didja click that one's profile? Oops.

Meantime, over in another thread, I'm trying to figure out where Kerry has proposed laws providing for confiscating firearms, and not getting much detail on that either ... and seeing some mighty big teeth glinting through the baa-ing muzzle ...

[MrSandman]

45. That proposal looked as if ...

It is an assertion based on news over 4 years old.

[turnkey]

44. Most Cops...

In my part of the world carry a semi-auto pistol in 9mm. or .40 S&W with standard capacity (not neutered) magazines, a pump shotgun (Mossy 590 or Rem. 870) in their Road Car, and possibly an AR-15 in semi-auto.
Nothing here a civilian couldn't own, IMO.

[slackmaster]

53. Lots of police still use Smith & Wesson .38 Specials

And the occasional Ruger 10/22.

[TX-RAT]

63. And the occasional Ruger 10/22.?

Thats a first.

[Extremist]

67. You know...

...ive always found that you liberals are hypocrits when it comes to gun control. First you state that the current government has too much power, and then you come up with the "bright" solution:HEY! Why dont we give the government more power, maybe things will work out then!

Citizens need weapons to defend themselves against invaders, against criminals, and against the government. Go tell Randy Weaver that citizens dont need guns.

[iverglas]

70. here's a tip

"ive always found that you liberals are hypocrits when it comes to gun control."

When you click on the profile of the person you're responding to and you see a big ol' tombstone, this will be your first clue that the person you're responding to is not one of "you liberals".

Of course, when you see someone on a liberal/progressive/Democrat discussion board referring to other people there as "you liberals", well, that might be a clue of a similar kind.

[MrSandman]

71. Of course there is more than one clue...

Go tell Randy Weaver that citizens dont need guns.

This thread brought them on.

On edit...it was easy pickin's

[iverglas]

72. arcane tidbits

Go tell Randy Weaver that citizens dont need guns.
This thread brought them on.

I'm pretty sure that Mr. Weaver is some icon of the heroic struggle against ... um, black helicopters ... but I just don't absorb the details sometimes.

And I've never been sure that these mentions could be used to distinguish ... um,
" 'pro-gun democrats' "
from
"pro-gun democrats".

hahahaha, or whatever the stupidfaceiconthingy is for laughing uproariously at one's own jokes.


On edit...it was easy pickin's

Ah yes, I see ... I know I was busy making bouquets. ;)

[Sleeper]

46. Give me a Gun

I agree whats good for the cops is good for me!!

[MudBug]

48. This stuff is crazy!!!

We have paid the police to protect us, they are trained to protect us. I for one am very happy to just lock myself in a closet, dial 911, and wait for the police to show up, if the bad guys get to me first then at least I will die without the sin of murder on my head. There is no way I'm going to meet my god with a murder on my score card.

[CrashBurnRepeat]

50. I see your point about the police

but my problem is my children. If it was just me, I would do the same thing, but I can't let the life of my three year old girl or 5 year old son depend on the response time of the local police to protect them.

That's ultimately what has made me start to consider owning a gun. A neighbor of mine was killed by her estranges husband last year about two blocks away. She called the police and they got there in under three minutes but she died anyway.

I would barricade myself in my room with my kids, and call the cops because that's what they're for, but if an attacker breaks my bedroom door down, I don't want to rely on a pillow or a bat to protect my family.

It's scary but it's a possibility.

The last thing is, I don't think shooting someone who is trying to kill you is murder. And even if it was, if it comes down to me going to hell for protecting my 3 year old, I'll go.

But I totally understand your point and repect your opinion. I don't think most people should have guns, but if someone is willing to accept the responsibility and get trained, I think that they should be able to .

[slackmaster]

51. Oh for crying out loud

Killing in legitimate self-defense is not murder.

Laws defining lawful use of deadly force vary a lot from state to state.

In Massachussets you pretty much have to have exhausted every possible means of escape before you can shoot.

In Texas you can shoot someone for messing with your car or stealing stuff if it's after sunset.

In California (which is more typical) you have to be able to show that you had a reasonable fear of death of great bodily injury. If you are inside of your house the burden of proof falls on the state to prove that your shooting was not legitimate self-defense.

[iverglas]

64. sing with me now

Baa baa black sheep

Have you anyowoooooool.

[Speak soft carry Big]

65. If you're truly religious...

He that suffers his life to be taken from him by one that hath no authority for that purpose, when he might preserve it by defense, incurs the Guilt of self murder since God hath enjoined him to seek the continuance of his life, and Nature itself teaches every creature to defend itself.

Its difficult for most modern folks to fathom, but it was once widely believed that life was a gift from God, and to not defend that life when offered violence was to hold God's gift in contempt, to be a coward and to breach one's duty to one's community.

To play the purity-before-god card is a cop out for being responsible when using your free will.

[iverglas]

69. got a source for that shit?

Oh yeah; you do.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0377/is_n113/ai_14550828

Although difficult for modern man to fathom, it was once widely believed that life was a gift from God, that to not defend that life when offered violence was to hold God's gift in contempt, to be a coward and to breach one's duty to one's community. A sermon given in Philadelphia in 1747 unequivocally equated the failure to defend oneself with suicide:

He that suffers his life to be taken from him by one that hath no authority for the purpose, when he might preserve it by defense, incurs the Guilt of self murder since God hath enjoined him to seek the continuance of his life, and Nature itself teaches every creature to defend itself.

Huh! You even have a source for the stuff that wasn't italicized in your post, so it looked like you wrote it, except you didn't, you just changed about 3 words in it -- you've heard of PLAGIARISM?? ... I mean, unless you're Jeffrey Snyder, who wrote an article called "A Nation of Cowards", published in the fall 1993 issue of The Public Interest.

He has a fairly big fan club for that article. So what's this The Public Interest now?

http://www.thepublicinterest.com/

Mmm, tasty stuff there. George Will, Francis Fukuyama, Irving Kristol.

And National Affairs Inc, which publishes it?

http://www.mediatransparency.org/search_results/national_affairs_results.htm

National Affairs, Inc.
Washington,DC 20036
Publishes The National Interest and The Public Interest magazines. The organization is run by Irving Kristol. Henry Kissinger, Jeane Kirkpatrick and author Charles Murray sit on the magazines' advisory boards.

More good stuff here:
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&q=+site:www.mediatransparency.org+%22the+public+interest%22+%22national+affairs%22

We do love to trace the tentacles of the neo-con illuminati hereabouts, you know.

Not much more evidence of Jeffrey Snyder apart from that article, which sure is in a lot of evidence at RKBA-head internet sites. But none that I have found tell us who this Jeffrey Snyder *is*, other than "Esq."

Ah ... here we are. And look! it's the CATO Institute!!

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-284.html

Fighting Back:
Crime, Self-Defense, and the Right to Carry a Handgun

by Jeffrey R. Snyder

Jeffrey Snyder is an attorney in private practice in New York. He is working on a book called Ethical Blindness and Moral Vanity--What the Gun Control Debate Tells Us about the American Ethos.

Heh heh. Take it from me. Quoting lawyers isn't gonna get you anywhere around here.

Nor does quoting someone who happens to agree with you and is not an authority on squat. And that's all you've done ... even though you seem to have wanted us to think you had written what you quoted.

And as to his own "authority" ... I gotta say ... using a sermon delivered in Philadelphia in 1747 as authority for something (did the preacher in question even cite chapter and verse of his authority for that guff?) ... well, I've seen better.

Do feel free to try again.

[CrashBurnRepeat]

49. I think so too......

I don't have any problem with law abiding citizens owning any types of guns. Even machine guns. I got in a big argument with a guy I work with last year and he claimed that only one illegal machine gun had ever been used in a crime.

I called his bluff but it turned out he was right. Only one illegal/non-registered machine gun has ever been used in a crime, and it was a polieman that did it. He killed a drug dealer or something.


I don't own any firearms, but I'm going to start. My grandfather used to take me shooting when I was younger and I really enjoyed it. A co-worker shoots in some sort of pistol league and he took me shooting last month and it was a blast! (pun intended).

I am looking at getting either a Springfield like he has or possibly a ruger revolver because they are cheaper. I think that as long as you are willing to get training, and you aren't a criminal, I think it's probably OK for citizens to have guns. I know there have been several times I have wished I would have had one.


Has anyone shot clay pigeons? The same guy at work who took me shooting does something called sport clays or sporting clay. He says it's a blast. What is it?

[slackmaster]

52. I think you made a typo

I got in a big argument with a guy I work with last year and he claimed that only one illegal machine gun had ever been used in a crime.

If he meant only one LEGAL machine gun he was kind of right. I believe the actual number is two, since the National Firearms Act was put into place. That was 1934.

[CrashBurnRepeat]

57. Oh yes, you're correct, I am a bad typist

You're right, it was LEGAL machine guns, and I just found the one but I have heard other people claim there were two uses. I just could never find the reference to the second one.


good catch though. Now ILLEGAL full autos, those can be and come from pretty much anywhere. Like the two monsters in CAlifornia that robbed that bank. I think those were smuggled in from Mexico or somewhere.

if someone has a crime, any crime they shouldn't even have a bb gun. I'm still not totally sure where I lie on qualifying for owning them but I'm pretty sure I think if you have no criminal past you should be able to get one.

I also think that if you commit a crime with a firearm, any firearm you should serve a hefty and severe crime. I'm pretty sure that if you use a firearm in a crime and hurt or kill someone you shouldn't get out of jail....

[vpigrad]

55. Stupid NRA lies

> I called his bluff but it turned out he was right.

Wrong. Just today yet another full auto was used in Oak Creek, WI to kill two people. I wish people would start thinking. When you hear about those gun idiots going on drunk rampages with automatic weapons about every week, do you really believe that lie? Damn it, start thinking!

[CrashBurnRepeat]

58. I agree with you that illegal firearms

of ANY type are a problem, but this repugs contention was that LEGALLY owned firearms, even fully automatic (assault rifles) are not a problem. And at least in the case of the automatic ones, that seems to be true.

Illegal firearms though, that's a whole nother matter. My Sister-in-law's brother is in Afghanistan right now and he tells me that they make fully automatic AK-47's with files. With their hands. They cost about 25-60 dollars in the arms markets there. If they are that easy to make, I doubt we'll ever get rid of them. And I don't know what to do about that, except that if you have an illegal weapon, you just get parked in a cell forever. Something. I don't know.

But you're absolutly right, illegal weapons are a huge problem.

[RegexReader]

62. Like Sen. Feinstein said, $75 and you've got one!

[FoKerry]

56. Well I agree

that whatever police use we should be able to use also. I've had a .22 rifle for years and have shot it without any problems. I am sure I could handle any firearm because of my experience with the .22

[RobFalman]

59. Damn Right

a citizen should be allowed to carry to defend himself What Ever He or she wants to carry. :headbang:

[Extremist]

66. Well said.

Last time I checked, criminals dont go to the police and tell them exactly where and when they will commit their next crime. It is logically impossible for the police to offer and form of protection. Quite frankly, I believe the government should eliminate the needless waste of tax dollars (Welfare, healthcare, military (about 70% of it), Social security, education etc) and use the money to provide every american with a weapon.

History proves that guns lower crime.

[Wickerman]

73. Locking

this thread is certainly a magnet.

Oh, and the originator is no longer around to defend his views.