Report: Crime rate lowest since 1973

[Superfly]

CNN Link

Let's see, 35 states are shall issue or have no restrictions on CCW, 9 are may-issue, and the rest deny people the ability to carry concealed...but crime has decreased to it's lowest level since 1973? According to some anti's down here in J/PS - THIS CAN'T BE TRUE!!!

<snip>

Violent and property crimes dipped in 2002 to their lowest levels since records started being compiled 30 years ago, and have dropped more than 50 percent in the last decade, the Justice Department reported Sunday.

<snip>

[MrBenchley]

1. Gee

Assault rifles are off the streets, the Brady Law is in effect, and several states are toughening gun control laws.

"In 2000, about 66% of all murders, 41% of all robberies, and 18% of all aggravated assaults that were reported to the police were committed with a firearm. "

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/guncrime.htm

[Superfly]

2. Question:

"several states are toughening gun control laws"

Who and how?

[MrBenchley]

3. California, New York, Colorado, Oregon

and New Jersey have all done so in recent years...

You ought to remember that, fly....you and your fellow ennthusiasts have spent enough time sniveling about it.

[demsrule4life]

4. You might want to rethink

Oregon and Colorado, as New York, California and New Jersey goes I don't give a shit, nothing there I want. I guess that is why 600,000 people have left CA, they found out that there is nothing there they want either.

[MrBenchley]

22. In other words

the usual blah blah blah from RKBA enthusiasts...

[slackmaster]

5. The organization you pimp for says otherwise

The Violence Policy Center says that "post-ban" firearms like this Bushmaster...



...are actually assault weapons with minor features changed in order to get around the ban, and they're still available in most states.

So kindly tell us what difference the expiration of the federal AWB will make in terms of what kinds of firearms are "on the streets".

[MrBenchley]

13. Gee.....

Why not ask the victims of the Beltway sniper?

[Township75]

18. Yeah, ask them how effective the AWB is!

!

[slackmaster]

20. Appeal to emotion, constitutes a non-answer

Try again.

[RoeBear]

6. "Assault rifles are off the streets, the Brady Law is in effect, ...

... and several states are toughening gun control laws."

Or is it all those states that have enacted shall issue CCW laws that is contributing to the lower crime rates?

[AZTOY]

7. Well

CA,NJ,New York city and D.C have some of the tough gun control laws.

But thay also have highest crime rates.

AZ has has very little gun laws and have some of the lowest crime rates.





I don't understand!!!

[MrBenchley]

14. Ought to be easy for you "enthusiasts" to prove

Allyou have to do is show how crime rates dropped in those states that enacted CCW laws....and how they didn't drop as fast in states with sane gun laws.

But the plain fact is you won't because you can't.

[Township75]

19. You should be able to prove...

that the states that didn't adopt sane gun laws, such as NJ, MD and CA, had a larger drop in crime rates than states that do have sane gun laws

[MrBenchley]

21. Been there, done that

"For several years now, the nation's crime rate has fallen – but the drop in crime has not been spread equally throughout the country. As a group, states that chose to fight crime by loosening their concealed weapons laws had a significantly smaller drop in crime than states which looked to other means to attack crime in their communities.
Violent crime actually rose in 3 of 11 states (27%) that relaxed CCW laws prior to 1992 over the six years beginning in 1992, compared to a similar rise in violent crime in only 4 of 22 states (18%) which had restrictive CCW laws or did not permit the carrying of concealed weapons.
Between 1992 through 1998 (the last six years for which data exists), the violent crime rate in the strict and no-issue states fell 30% while the violent crime rate for states that liberalized carry laws prior to 1992 dropped half as much — by 15%. Nationally, the violent crime rate fell 25%."


http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/research/conctruth.asp

[Superfly]

23. Something I agree with...Finally!

"but the drop in crime has not been spread equally throughout the country"

That is true. In Washington DC, the crime rate has increased 58%, despite having some of the strictest gun laws on the books.

B

[MrBenchley]

24. Still pimping for Orrin Hatch's folly?

Wonderful to see the depths to which RKBA "enthusiasts" will sinnk....

[Superfly]

25. Hiiiiii-YAH!!!

Nice karate chop, ninja master. Didn't see the change of subject coming. You are truly a master of deception!

[Spoonman]

26. FLARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just shooting off a fact flare as instructed.

[MrBenchley]

30. And it's another dud from the RKBA crowd

[Superfly]

33. I know you are but what am I?

"Mom, make Spoonman stop!"

[MrBenchley]

35. Another dud from the RKBA crowd

[MrBenchley]

29. Gee...it takes an RKBA enthusiast

to claim that bringing up Orrin Hatch's name in connection with one of his most recent idiotic proposals is a change of direction.

[Superfly]

31. Orrin who?

I'm sorry, is that a character from one of the antis' fantasies?

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Superfly]

37. Oh, that guy

All things aside, here's a little test for you. I bet you'll fail.

- How much has the crime rate changed in Washington, DC?
- How much has the crime rate changed in the rest of the US?



------------------
(Answers)
1) 58% up.
2) 50% down.

[MrBenchley]

39. The answer is

Orrin Hatch, right wing Republican lunatic from Utah...

And the question is "Who is this RKBA enthusiast pimping for?"

[Superfly]

41. You just can't answer the question can you.

Because you know, in your heart of hearts, that you are WRONG!

Face it, New Jersey and DC have some of the most assinine laws on the books and that has done nothing to curb crime.

The rest of the nation is relaxing gun laws and crime has dropped. (not saying that's the only cause of the drop, but a single contributing factor that bears some extra scrutiny.)

[MrBenchley]

43. Don't see any reason to pretend

that crime is going to drop in DC if there are more guns on the street...


"The rest of the nation is relaxing gun laws and crime has dropped."
Then it shouldn't be too hard to show that the idiotic CCCW laws have made a difference....but in fact they have done just the opposite.

[Superfly]

38. Oh, and another thing

we may disagree and argue, but please do not question my honesty. I will not question yours and I expect the same from any other adult.

B

[MrBenchley]

40. Gee, I'm not the one pretending

he NEVER heard of a guy whose opinion he was bitterly and furiously defending just a few days ago.

[Superfly]

42. Alright, you can also refrain from putting words in my mouth

too.

Are the facts right or wrong? Who wrote them is immaterial, but if you cannot dispute the facts, you switch to ad hominem against the author. Just like a Ninja Master!

[MrBenchley]

44. YOU posted "Orrin who"

after bitterly defending Hatch's insanity....

"Are the facts right or wrong?"
They're horseshit. Whicch is why they;ve got nutcases like Hatch, Lott and Sun Myung Moon pushing them.

"if you cannot dispute the facts, you switch to ad hominem against the author."
Gee, who is that spouting "scary brady"? Oh yeah, the RKBA crowd

[Township75]

28. Peddle it somewhere else Benchley

Who are you trying to kid?

You left this out from your link:
This study conducted by The Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence (formerly the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence) has concluded that Dr. Lott and the gun lobby have got it all wrong: allowing people to carry concealed handguns does not mean less crime.

Ahhh, the great research foundation of the Brady Bunch...go scramble for a real source anti gunner, not a anti gun spin source full of lies and corrupt blood money flowing from a friggen river.

[MrBenchley]

32. Not a chance, townie

"go scramble for a real source"
I got a real souurce, not a rightg wing loony funded by the corrupt gun industry. Now go snivel about it to someone else.

[Township75]

45. Seek medical attention NOW!

" got a real souurce, not a rightg wing loony "

Sarah Brady is a Repub..do you not know this? Why don't you argue that Repubs are not right wing now?

And you admitted to funding her...so YOU support Repubs!

[Spoonman]

46. FLARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sarah Brady is a Repub..do you not know this?
And you admitted to funding her...so YOU support Repubs!

Pimping for the repuks, is that how it goes?

[MrBenchley]

48. Another RKBA dud

What a bunch of wet squibs....

[MrBenchley]

47. What a lame response

Cry us a river.

[Spoonman]

49. About as lame as

Gun Ophobes pimpin for the right wing republican Sary Brady group.

[MrBenchley]

50. Peddle it to somebody dumb enough to buy it

"Gun Owners of America Political Victory Fund endorses Judge Roy Moore for Chief Justice of the Alabama Supreme Court in the June 6th Republican Primary. Judge Moore has a long track record of public support for the right to keep and bear arms.
Gun owners in Alabama know their gun rights are under attack like never before by President Clinton and Vice President Al Gore. A Supreme Court Justice who understands the constitution and will abide by it is important to protecting your fundamental rights. "

http://www.gunowners.org/sal0600.htm

http://www.visionforum.com/corner/blog/archives/2003_07_01_index.asp

http://pages777.com/TodayNews0814.html

http://www.feltd.com/roymoore.html

[Spoonman]

57. Try again

"Gun Owners of America Political Victory Fund endorses Judge Roy Moore"

I'm an athiest, fuck him!!!

Sorry better "load" up better than that if your gunning for me!

[MrBenchley]

74. Another wet RKBA squib

[Township75]

51. Everyone check this out!

fewest words out of Benchy's mouth so far!

The knee jerk "river" response is still there.

But Bench, why only a river and not a friggen river?

[Superfly]

52. I think he's starting to turn and

see the error in his ways. Slowly, oh ever so slowly the worm will turn.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Township75]

82. Awwww, did I hurt somebody's feelings and

they had to go running to the Mods? I find it interesting that only this post was deleted.

[CO Liberal]

83. Uh, Township...........

...if you have a problem with how the moderators are doing their job, post it on the "Ask The Administrators" board. This isn't the place for that..............

[Township75]

84. I wasn't referring...

to the mods...reread the post and you will see I ask if I hurt someone's feelings such that he had to go running to the mods...the mods do not need to go running to the mods, and that post doesn't mention anything about the job the mods perform.

But The Town appreciates you looking out for him like that :)

[CO Liberal]

86. You Seem To Be Questioning an Action Taken By The Mods

Perhaps you should re-read your OWN post, Township.....

[MrBenchley]

60. I'm demonstrating quite clearly

the "honesty" of the RKBA crowd...Orrin who?

[Superfly]

61. Shit, man

I honestly did not know who that was. Is that OK with you? That's why I asked the question. Lighten up.

B

[MrBenchley]

72. Yeah, surrrrrrrrre....

[MrBenchley]

59. Doesn't deserve any more than that...

[malkia]

8. You forgot about the deadly .50 rifles

You know, the ones preferred by every criminal. You have to work harder to get them off the streets. It’s for the children!
By the way, how come gun control in Canada an UK doesn’t reduce crime so well?

[Just_Looking]

9. In 2000? I thought we were discussing 2002?

"In 2000, about 66% of all murders, 41% of all robberies, and 18% of all aggravated assaults that were reported to the police were committed with a firearm."

Which means that 34% of murders, 59% of robberies, and 82% of aggravated assaults were not committed with a firearm.

[Goldust]

27. If it's gun control that's stopping crime...

...then why are property crimes and drug use down too? Clearly the drop is due to something other than a statistically unproven approach to one type of crime.

[MrBenchley]

36. The story also credits a number of other factors

but you'll note the drop began with the passage of the Brady Law and the passage of Bill Clinton's COPS bill.

No wonder the RKBA crowd and the corrupt gun industry hate that law so.

[Goldust]

56. So what you're saying is that gun control laws stop drug use?

We're seeing a drop in criminal activity as a whole, not just gun crime. Clearly it's not gun control that's stopping crime, but something that's deterring all criminal activity to begin with.

[CO Liberal]

10. Actually, The Drop Is Probably Due to Roe V. Wade

There were studies that came out last year, if I remember correctly. They concluded that since abortion was legalized, fewer unwanted babies were coming into the world; therefore, fewer people that were more likely to turn to a life of crime.

1973 was before the introduction of the VCR - are you gonna credit the VCR for the reduction in crime??????

[Superfly]

12. See response #11

for what the attribute the decline to.

B

[Superfly]

11. Related tidbit

On the way to work this morning, the news reporter was talking about this trend in the whole US: crime has decreased since it's lowest point since 1973 and down 54% for the last decade.

CCW states have increased so that there are only 6 that deny the right of the people to keep and bear arms, yet crime is down across the nation....except:

Washington DC, where crime has risen 58% in the last 2 years and they have some of the strictest gun control on the books.

I'll look for a link, but I heard this on CBS news this morning.

What do they attribute the decrease in crime too? Better security at home (to include locks, alarms, AND firearms. Reduction in the number of and membership in violent gangs. An older, more sophisticated (??) drug-using crowd.

So, I really expect states that have strict gun control to start looking at relaxing those measures that are restrictive in favor of ones that allow law abiding citizens the right to keep and bear arms....one could only hope.

Brian

[MrBenchley]

15. Armed neurroticcs...what a concept.

I think we'll keep our sane gun laws in New Jerrsey and keep trying to reduce this scourge instead of contributing to it.

[demsrule4life]

16. I consider myself preatty good

at geography but for the life of me I can't find New Jerrsey on the map. :)

[Superfly]

17. Very good, Ninja Master

I love your tactics, very sneaky: don't know what you're talking about, change the subject. *poof* just like that! They never even see it coming. You are a logical master!

B

[DonP]

54. FWIW bad guys are locked up too

I know it's heresy to some folks, but don't you have to accept that there is some kind of relationshiop between the number of bad guys locked up and the drop in crime?

The way the NYT says it is that, "in spite of record incarceration rates, crime continues to drop". It seems to me that there might be a cause and effect at work there.

But the increase in CCW passage is another sign of people getting fed up with trusting the police for their security. Whether the anti RKBA people like it or not, it is a clear trend and isn't showing any signs of heading back in the other direction.

It looks like MO will have the votes to over ride th governors veto int he next session and Wisconsin is heading that way too.

Pretty soon it will only be us folks in Illinois that are disarmed for our own safety. Thank heavens at least Chicago is a safe city to walk the streets in.

Don P.

[Superfly]

55. Ha, ha, ha!

Chicago is run buy a guy who has to "steal" the airport in the middle of the night to put a park in. I don't think Daley will be around much longer after this term.

B

[Romulus]

58. if only it were true

about Daley getting put out to pasture. IL folks are going to have to deal with him being governor in the future.

[DonP]

62. He already is governor...

Via his sock puppet Rod Blagoyevitch.

Daley stole not only Meigs field in the middle of the night, he was also able to confiscate land in Bensenville for his pet O'Hare project.

Since when does a mayor get to take over land in another municipality? When you run the governor's office and statehouse at the same time.

There maybe an uprising one of these days, but not until the African-American voting block in Chicago bonds together to choose a consensus candidate, like they did with Harold Washington.

Welcome to "Gun Free Chicago", the place where CO Liberal gets many of his "Children shot on the street" stories.

Don

[CO Liberal]

63. The Only Reason There Are So Many "Children shot on the street" stories..

...is that there are so many guns on the streets.

[Superfly]

64. And the only reason there are "so many guns on the street"

is because gun bans do not work.

[CO Liberal]

65. So We Need to MAKE THEM WORK

Right?????

[Superfly]

66. How?

By passing NEW ones?

Enforce the <plentiful> laws on the books ruthlessly and fairly and maybe there will be a change.

[CO Liberal]

69. Gun Control Requires a Multi-Faceted Approach

Enforce existing laws.
Pass new laws where needed.
Find and reduce the root causes of violence.
Etc, etc, etc.................

[Superfly]

70. OK...

Enforce existing laws.

--> Yes. 150% Yes.

Pass new laws where needed.

--> Only if those laws do not infringe upon already curtailed rights and only if those laws have a proven effect on the decrease of crime, without an increased burden (taxes) on all Americans.

Find and reduce the root causes of violence.

--> Yes.

Etc, etc, etc.................

--> Like what? Involuntary searches and siezures?

[Man_in_the_Moon]

67. You know that drug Ban sure has worked

It only costs us how many billions a year? 20 billion? 50 billion?

It is a shame that actually fixing the problem might be cheaper than enforcing the ban.

But then some people out there simply want an excuse to have .GOV in everyone's home spying on thier every move.

Think a 'gun ban' is any cheaper than a 'drug ban'? heck just look at the cost overruns in the Canadian Registration system, and that isnt even a ban.

[Superfly]

68. <More>

To continue, it appears as if something is happening, crime, except for a few places like Jersey and DC, is decreasing. Gun circulation is up due to more and more states becoming shall issue, and an increased desire to have protection post 9/11.

It's time criminals and would-be criminals realize that their next victim may be packing heat and is trained to use a firearm.

Enforce the laws on the books, get rid of "fluffy-feel good" laws that don't make sense, establish a national CCW, and put the power of the people to control and protect their own lives back into their hands.

Brian

[Romulus]

71. "toast to the post"

:toast:

It may be a mere "opinion," but it's a damn good one.

It's time criminals and would-be criminals realize that their next victim may be packing heat and is trained to use a firearm.

Enforce the laws on the books, get rid of "fluffy-feel good" laws that don't make sense, establish a national CCW, and put the power of the people to control and protect their own lives back into their hands.

[Superfly]

73. Gracias

That's my entire position in a nutshell. :toast:

[demsrule4life]

87. Crime is increasing in Jersey?

Even with their "commonsense" gun laws?

[DonP]

75. Absolutely right

For the last 20 or so years there hasn't been a gun store in Chicago and none of the collar county stores have been allowed (under threat of prosecution) to sell guns or ammunition to anyone with a Chicago address. For the record, the exact same laws apply at the gun shows in downstate Illinois.

The Chicago CAGE (Chicago Area Gun Enforcement) unit makes regular undercover trips to gun stores to test them for it and arrests and prosecutions have been made on it. It's all very gestapo like.

I'm open to any pragmatic suggestions you have that would make a genuine difference in the gang related gun problems but more regulation isn't the answer. We have tried that up the ying yang here!.

The guns are in the hands of the gangs and every new law Daley passes has no effect on their behavior or their ability to get any guns they want. The going price on the street for a crappy little .25 Davis auto is about $400 these days. But the price never stands in their way.

All the current set of growing laws does is make it illegal for any citizen to own or defend themselves or their family with a firearm, even in their own home or anywhere else for that matter. Of course Daley and all the alderpersons are allowed to carry. The only thing a citizen is allowed to do is grieve for their loved ones and hope that they can move away soon.

Based on the Brady principle, Chicago should be a gun free Utopia. It's just the bad guys that don't give a crap for any law to begin with. That's why Ronyale White's husband knew he could shoot her anytime he felt like it and no one was going to stop him.

Sorry about the rant, but Chicago has the toughest set of gun laws in the country and every year we watch the death toll climb. The answer every time is to demonize the gun and overlook the gang factor for the most part, since their families vote and objects don't.

Don

[CO Liberal]

76. That's The Problem ......

...when one juristiction has tougher gun laws than others. What we need are uniformly tough gun restrictions coast to coast. Those that will keep guns out of the hands of criminals, yet let law-abiding citizens who choose to get guns with a minimal amount of inconvenience.

[Man_in_the_Moon]

77. Like drugs?

What we need are uniformly tough gun restrictions coast to coast. Those that will keep guns out of the hands of criminals...

What we need are uniformly tough drug restrictions coast to coast. Those that will keep drugs out of the hands of addicts...

[CO Liberal]

78. Oh, I Get It............

Right now, I'm supposed to say, "Gee, Man_in_the_moon, I guess you're right. We've been unable to control the drug problem - so I guess we might as well forget about controlling our gun problem....."

NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MrBenchley]

79. Amazing isn't it...

When was the last time anyone read about drive-by ODs?

[Man_in_the_Moon]

80. Nope not at all.

I was just comment on the fact that treating the symptoms of a problem rarely does anything to solve the problem.

And I again say there is no 'gun problem' there is a problem of 'criminals using guns', which is a totally different thing.

And just as the 'drug war' has done nothing to curb drug use/addiction, and has only served to further the encroachment of the government onto our privacy and our rights, a 'gun war' would do little or nothing to curb criminals using guns, it would simply exacerbate the erosion of one of the few rights we have left.

To continually blame the object and not the real problem is shortsighted and counter productive.

[CO Liberal]

81. Please Read My Post #69 Above

I am NOT advocating "blame the object" and nothing else. I have said time and time again that the gun problem is very complex and will require a complex answer.

[AZTOY]

85. I know this

I can go in to Tucson right now and buy a gun. Yes it late and all the gun store are closed. But if i want a gun i can get one.

Most people don't understand this. Bad guys don't buy gun in gun stores. Thay buy them on the streets. So keep baning gun and making new laws.
The USA can become the UK and Australia. This way only the bad guys have guns.I realy don't care.....................







I have my guns........Molon labe!