Gun show conversations

[Young Socialist]

visited the Phoenix gun show this morning, didn't see any Nazi memorabilia or any Arian nation booths there. a couple of repugs there campaigning but getting blown off by a lot of people. Did have conversations with a few dealers and other firearms enthusiasts. Consensus is AWB is dead, Kerry gets elected and things get real interesting next year. A lot of people I talked to were positive on Kerry. So basically everyone is going on a shopping spree come september. anecdotal evidence only, my 2 cents and that's about all its worth.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

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[billbuckhead]

2. Just in time for terrorism against the election

I'm sure a ready supply will be waiting for all the twisted souls coming back from Iraq and other points on "the war on some terrorists". "We the people" don't want AK-47's being sold at WarMall without any registration.

[billbuckhead]

3. BTW, it's Aryan Nation

:D Besides the gun show people know John McCain and AGSF are watching them.

[Young Socialist]

8. gee if they'd have only had a booth there then I'd have known

how to spell it. how do you know so much about them? closet member?

[OpSomBlood]

4. AK-47's have never been sold at Wal-Mart and never will.

So as catchy as it might sound, please stop spreading your baseless propaganda here.

Terrorists don't acquire firearms through legal means, and legal semi-auto rifles are not what they are looking for anyway. They can get fully-automatic AK's on the black market, and get them without the hassle of a background check or waiting period. Even if AK-47's were "sold at Wal-Mart," that isn't the place a terrorist would go to get them.

Stick to the facts and we'll all get along fine.

[billbuckhead]

5. What proof do you have that terrorists don't obtain weapons through legal

means? It says in the Al Queda "how to be a successful terrorist handbook" that one can buy guns in America very easily and to take advantage of it.

[billbuckhead]

6. WalMart will have to compete with WarMall

Why wouldn't Wal Mart and K-Mart jump BACK into the gun business?

[Young Socialist]

7. it just kills you to think that decent liberal people

are firearms enthusiasts and go to gun shows.

[OpSomBlood]

9. Osama bin Laden's confusion about American gun laws...

...is not my problem.

Al Qaeda handbooks also tell terrorists to blend into American society. Getting rejected at a gun store after a background check certainly isn't the way to lay low.

[billbuckhead]

10. No,it kills thousands of innocent Americans a year and debases our society

Americas weak and weakly enforced weapons regulations are symptoms of a sick society that manifests itself in terms of the highest murder rate of advanced nations and the highest incarceration rate of advanced nations.

[FeebMaster]

11. So America's high rate of incarceration is because of its

weak gun laws? Here I thought it had something to do with the drug war.

[billbuckhead]

15. Most drugs are illegal in most countries. Guns are the big difference

between advanced nations. America is unique in the access to guns and the resulting violence.

[el_gato]

33. the drug war is a scam

but I guess you support that too since it's just another
way to destroy liberty here in the U.S.

Meanwhile the more progressive countries are moving in the
direction of decriminalization of drugs.

As well, Canada has a high rate of gun ownership but is
relaitively peaceful. Not that our screwed up society
in the U.S. has anything to do with the constant fear mongering
and distrust of fellow citizens that is pushed by the
talking heads in the media.

[MrSandman]

12. Wekly enforced weapons laws...

I agree with the status of the laws, but that they result in "...the highest incarceration rate of advanced nations."


How does poor enforcement lead to high rates of incarceration? :crazy:

[MrSandman]

27. They do obtain weapns legally...

Or they used black market box cutters on 9/11.

[Columbia]

13. Please don't malign myself or my fellow servicemembers

I do not consider my soul twisted.

[billbuckhead]

14. We need to prepare for the Tim McVeighs of the future.

We need to prepare for the Tim McVeighs of the future. Most soldiers don't come back twisted but from time immemoriam, Romans, Spanish conquistadores, hells' Angels, Vietnam vets, outlaws after the civil war, a certain number of soldiers come back from battle with problems that will be multiplied by America's weak weapons laws and access to powerful weapons.

In fact, Timmy said that if he had it to do over again, he'd get real good sniper rifle.

[Columbia]

16. All the gun laws in the world

Will not stop a man who is determined to kill.

Take 9/11 for instance.

Here is what Michael Moore had to say about BFC and 9/11, "This started out as a documentary on gun violence in America, but the largest mass murder in our history was just committed -- without the use of a single gun! Not a single bullet fired!... I can't stop thinking about this. A thousand gun control laws would not have prevented this massacre. What am I doing?"

[billbuckhead]

17. The AK-47 has killed more people than the A-bomb

It's been said the AK-47 has killed more people than the atomic bomb.Hundreds of thousands more Americans are killed by domestic guns than terrorists bombs.

[Columbia]

18. Car use has killed more people in the US

Than guns, bombs, and airplanes combined.

Do you think if you somehow made guns disappear that people would stop killing each other?

[MrSandman]

19. Wouldn't they?

;)

[will89]

92. No they wouldnt

They would use baseball bat's,knives,etc people will always be able to kill. Sorry guns cannot kill someone unless a person picks it up and pulls the trigger.

[billbuckhead]

20. Cars are registered, inspected, insured, taxed. drivers are licensed

and cars aren't even designed to kill people.

[MrSandman]

21. Apples and oranges...

So I've been told.

[Columbia]

22. You haven't answered my question

If you magically made all guns in the world vanish, would people stop killing each other?

[MrSandman]

23. Seriously,

Don't you just love it when someone makes a proposal and then will not address the reality of its consequences?

[Township75]

25. I loved it the first few times, now...

it is really just expected and pathetic from the anti gun side.

[OpSomBlood]

26. Take away the guns, we're still violent as hell.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=56221&mesg_id=56221&page=

The total homicide rate in Japan (where guns are completely illegal) is 1.3 per 100,000. The rate in the U.S. of homicides by weapons other than firearms is 3.2 per 100,000.

This was the point I was trying to make with the statistic above...and it was met with criticism of my statistics.

The U.S. has a violence problem. Gun crimes are a symptom, not the disease.

[MrBenchley]

28. Yeah, but you guys are a lot less of a menace

without your lethal "toys."

[OpSomBlood]

29. Who are "you guys"? All gun owners?

n/t

[MrBenchley]

31. Who was "WE" in your post?

I sure as hell don't see a lot of violence among the Americans I hang out with...but then I try to avoid the sort that frequent gun shows or believe what they find in the stentorian....

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

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[MrBenchley]

50. Too TOO funny

"OpSomBlood 
26. Take away the guns, we're still violent as hell."

OpSomBlood 
49. By the way, I never said "we,"

[OpSomBlood]

51. I stand corrected, I thought you were referring to this thread.

And I apologize profusely for implying national unity by saying "we" in place of "Americans."

Because everybody knows that the only definition of "we" is "me and my friends."

Are you really that bored, that you're parsing my grammar now?

[Liberal Classic]

60. Always good for a veiled insult

Funny. Are you suggesting gun owners aren't real americans, or the usual implication that we are nazis and terrorists?

[MrBenchley]

61. Gee, not many of the folks I hang out with

pretend they need a gun to go to church....
or post pictures of John Wayne Gacy...
or need to be coaxed to state their honest opinion out loud...
or sneak on to websites to pretend they are something they are not....
or compare themselves favorably to the Beltway snipers....
or pretend that an article that claims "blacks, jews and women" are "professional victims" has any merit whatsoever...
or defend the wearing of Nazi outfits in public

The only ones I ever encounter are in this folder...and guess which side of the argument they're on?

[Liberal Classic]

63. And of course, I do all those horrid things

While you, angelically, suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous forum posts.

Good grief, Mr. Benchley. Where did you learn to debate? The Stasi School of Interrogation, Leipzig Germany?

You even told me that I hate blacks and upitty women. Unless you have some evidence to support your claims I am simply going to have to call you an outright liar.

or defend the wearing of Nazi outfits in public

Repugnant their beliefs are, no less of an organization than the ACLU has defended the rights of Neo-Nazi type people to march and publically express their views. Do you accuse the ACLU of the same thoughtcrime that you accuse of me?

[slackmaster]

64. What's even sadder about the Nazi uniforms "issue"

Is that the ones MrBenchley refers to several times per day were most likely being worn by World War II re-enactors, at the Knob Creek Shoot.

[MrBenchley]

66. Yeah, it is pretty sad

that anyone would hang out where armed loonies dress like Nazis FOR FUN.

[slackmaster]

67. Or Confederate soldiers?

How do you feel about people wearing World War II Japanese uniforms, MrBenchley?

How far are you willing to go suppressing freedom of speech and expression? Would you ban all military re-enactments, or just ones where people wear German uniforms?

Do you have nightmares about Colonel Klink?



:freak:

I hate to be the one to break this to you, MrBenchley, but military re-enactments are FUN. So is collecting historical clothing, weapons, accoutrements, etc. It's also a good way to get children interested in history.

What would you do, deny it all? How can you be a Puritan and a liberal at the same time, MrBenchley?

[MrBenchley]

69. Gee, slack...

[slackmaster]

70. You didn't answer my questions

But I didn't expect you to. That would cause too much cognitive dissonance.

[MrBenchley]

75. Gee, slack...I only view your posts for the comedy value...

[slackmaster]

77. I'm proud to be your personal laughingstock

I'm sure a lot of people feel the same way about you as you feel about me.

[MrBenchley]

80. And you do such a good job, too....

[MrBenchley]

65. Gee, you jumped in to bitch about op's "we"

"You even told me that I hate blacks and upitty women."
Why do I suspect you're not going to be able to link to that statement by me...or that when we do it's going to be entirely different than represented here. Perhaps it's because I remember it.

"no less of an organization than the ACLU has defended the rights of Neo-Nazi type people to march and publically express their views"
I doubt anybody in the ACLU, even those who defended that right, tried to pretend it was just harmless fun similar to a figurine collection...or tried to pretend that the Nazis weren't really Nazis but an episode of Hogan's Heroes...or tried to pretend that the Nazis didn't exist.

"Do you accuse the ACLU of the same thoughtcrime"
Let me know when the ACLU says "we" and then sits around pissing and moaning ten minutes later that they never said "we." But you'll notice I never accuse anybody in the RKBA crowd with "thoughtcrime," or with garden variety "thought" for that matter.

[OpSomBlood]

24. Cars are registered, inspected, insured, taxed...

...and still injure 3 million people every year. You aren't exactly reinforcing your position.

[CO Liberal]

68. And If a Car Is Involved in a Hit-and-Run and The Driver Flees The Scene..

...that registration allows the police to track him or her down. Why not have the same thing with guns????

[FeebMaster]

71. Only if someone gets the license plate number.

Were you planning on having people who get shot note the serial number of the gun that shot them?

[CO Liberal]

74. No....

The license number is not necessary all the time. Just a month or two ago, a young girl was struck by an SUV and left to die, which she did a few days later. Someone saw a large SUV in the area around that time (early in the morning) - a check of vehicle registrations for that type of vehicle in the area turned up a guy who later confessed to hitting her.

Using an analogy, if someone is shot by a certain type of bullet, the authorities could use gun registrations to narrow their search by concentrating on people who owned guns that fired that type of ammo.

[FeebMaster]

78. What are you going to do, confiscate every gun that matches

the description of the murder weapon and try and get a match? Maybe just send the police to harass everyone that owns that kind of gun and pray one of them confesses out of the blue, like the SUV guy. It should be interesting considering how clueless people seem to be about guns.

Personally I can't wait for a system like this. "Witnesses say the gunman had a revolver. Police are questioning all revolver owners in the state." Hahah.

[FeebMaster]

89. This just in. Someone was shot with a .22 today.

Police are questioning every .22 owner who lives within 20 miles of the scene. With a few hundred officers it shouldn't take more than a month or two.

[OpSomBlood]

72. Not if the car is stolen.

n/t

[FeebMaster]

73. Obviously if someone's car is stolen and that car is later used

in a hit and run, the original owner should be held responsible.

[CO Liberal]

76. And How Do You REPORT a Stolen Car????

By its license number. Why not have the same system for guns?

[FeebMaster]

79. If you're going to report a stolen gun, you probably do give

the police the serial number.

[el_gato]

32. so cars are totally regulated and they still kill more people than guns

So much for that line

[CO Liberal]

34. How Many Cars Are Used Daily???

Versus the number of guns used daily? Anyone have those figures?

[el_gato]

35. Gun ownership is at a saturation point for the most part

So I don't think your point is very effective.

[CO Liberal]

36. You're Evading the Question, Gato

How many people have guns that they rerely use? Guns that spend most of their time in gun cabinets, or "hidden" in a night table?

These same people (for the most part) own cars or trucks. Which they probably use at least two or three times a day.

Get the point now???

[el_gato]

41. You haven't made anypoint that supports your anti-gun views

especially given the fact that gun ownership is relatively unregulated when compared to car ownership.

Are you saying that the actual use of firearms is going to increase for some reason? As well, you point out that the time-of-use of a firearm is way less than that of a vehicle. So how does that make any difference in terms of gun owenrship and the threat it poses versus that of vehicles?

As I point out, gun ownership is pretty much at a saturation level and thus gun USAGE is as well.

So again, I don't see how you have made any point at all.

BTW, let's keep this civil a respectful without personal attacks.

[CO Liberal]

59. No One's Attacking Anyone Here, Gato

I'm just waiting for you to answer the question.

Quit talking about gun OWNERSHIP - that's not the issue. Start talking about gun USAGE. Compare that with car USAGE and you'll have an apples-and-apples comparison; otherwise, you're dealing in apples and oranges.

[el_gato]

81. I am talking about USAGE, you would know that if you read my post

[CO Liberal]

82. Oh, I DID Read Your Posts. Several Times, In Fact

And they both evade the question, IMHO.

For example, here's your Post #35:

35. Gun ownership is at a saturation point for the most part

So I don't think your point is very effective.

I'm talking about usage - you talk about ownership - classic apples and oranges.


And then, there's your Post #41

41. You haven't made anypoint that supports your anti-gun views

especially given the fact that gun ownership is relatively unregulated when compared to car ownership.

Are you saying that the actual use of firearms is going to increase for some reason? As well, you point out that the time-of-use of a firearm is way less than that of a vehicle. So how does that make any difference in terms of gun owenrship and the threat it poses versus that of vehicles?

As I point out, gun ownership is pretty much at a saturation level and thus gun USAGE is as well.

So again, I don't see how you have made any point at all.

BTW, let's keep this civil a respectful without personal attacks.

Again, you are evading the question. So I will repeat the question I posed in my Post #34:

34. How Many Cars Are Used Daily???

Versus the number of guns used daily? Anyone have those figures?

:shrug:

[el_gato]

83. let me see if I can get this straight

You are saying that guns are used less than cars thus, in terms of
usage guns are a bigger problem.

(how is this usage gauged? actual hours of usage?
number of shots? I'm not sure what standard you want to use here)

So you want to claim the apples to oranges problem but
how do you equate car usage and gun usage?
Would you care to explain?

[CO Liberal]

84. I Was Asking About GUN Usage vs. CAR Usage

You threw in gun OWNERSHIP to cloud the issue.

You seem to be the one peddling produce around here, Gato.....

[el_gato]

85. I am asking you a question regarding USAGE

how do you define gun USAGE?

can you define gun usage?

You can define car usage as number of miles driven.
Or you can say the number of cars that exists I suppose.

Maybe that would be helpful for you: number of cars owned versus numbers of guns owned. (thus we don't have to deal with the ambiguous definition of gun usage)

So I guess you would argue that since alot more cars are owned
than guns then the relative damage done is much greater for guns.
Is that your line?

oh wait, I see in post 38 you say:
"a round of ammo would be equivalent to a mile driven - the gun and the car simply being the tools used to fire the round or drive the mile. How many fatality-free miles are driven each year in this country, compared to the number of gun deaths."

Anyway, you can define it however you want. It does not matter
as far as I can see because gun usage/ownership is at saturation level. In other words, given the fact that gun ownership is not heavily regulated, just about anybody who wants a gun has one.
And the "threat" is as high as it is gonna get. Thus in terms
of the overall damage to society cars still do more damage.

[CO Liberal]

86. And As Far as I Can See....

...you're still clouding the issue.

[FeebMaster]

37. Back to this are we?

I seem to remember a conversation we had about all of the billions of rounds of ammunition fired in the United States every year and just how few of them actually hit people.

[CO Liberal]

38. OK...

...a round of ammo would be equivalent to a mile driven - the gun and the car simply being the tools used to fire the round or drive the mile. How many fatality-free miles are driven each year in this country, compared to the number of gun deaths.

And I would NOT include rounds fired on shooting ranges, because they are not fired in real-world conditions. Including them only skews the results, a la John Lott/Mary Rosh.

[FeebMaster]

39. Hahahahahah

"...a round of ammo would be equivalent to a mile driven - the gun and the car simply being the tools used to fire the round or drive the mile. How many fatality-free miles are driven each year in this country, compared to the number of gun deaths."

Why a mile? Why not 2 miles? Why not 10? Why use distance? Maybe we should use time. How's a second sound? Maybe an hour in the car equals one round fired? How many fatality-free miles are driven in this country anyway? How many total miles are driven? Should we count police? What about truckers? They drive for a living, after all.


"And I would NOT include rounds fired on shooting ranges, because they are not fired in real-world conditions. Including them only skews the results, a la John Lott/Mary Rosh."

Why don't we further restrict it to just bullets fired by criminals that hit their target and kill someone. Oh look! 100%!

[CO Liberal]

40. All I'm Saying Is That Including Target Practice Rounds is Bogus

It's not real world. It would be like counting the amount of time a car sits idle in your driveway.

[FeebMaster]

42. How about all the rounds fired in hunting or in the various

shooting competitions? Or would you like to exclude those as well? After all those are really just specialized forms of target practice.

[MrBenchley]

43. Jeeze, feeb...

Just 6% of the population hunts and fewer still do target sports...

[FeebMaster]

44. Wow.

Now tell me what percentage of the population murders people.

[Township75]

45. Why not have him tell you...

what percentage of bullets are used for hunting and shooting, as opposed to killing people.

Ahh, I guess you're right, you would just be wasting bandwidth, I am sure he would come up with something equally as irrelevant.

[FeebMaster]

47. I already tried the percentage of bullets fired thing.

Apparently all bullets not fired in the commission of a crime should be excluded.

All I'm really expecting in response is "Ask Jackney Sneeb" or something like that.

[Township75]

52. Or how about...

keep pimping for the NRA corrupt blood industry Cheney Chimp racist gun lobby.

[FeebMaster]

55. That would have been nice too.

Or maybe an "ask me again if I care what you think."

[MrBenchley]

46. Too many...

And the gun lobby helps. Big time.

[FeebMaster]

48. I'm disappointed. (nt)

[Township75]

57. Anti gunners tend to dissapoint very often.

.

[RoeBear]

53. Would you then be willing...

...to set aside any future conversations about including a tax on bullets that are used on a shooting range?

[MrSandman]

88. And how would you account time in a holster...

How many people have guns that they rerely use? Guns that spend most of their time in gun cabinets, or "hidden" in a night table?


I drive many more miles than I fire rounds of ammo, but carry a wepon in the holster for greater periods of time than I ride in a car. Is that "garage time" for my weapon?

[mosin]

93. "time in a holster"

Good point.

I nearly always have at least one firearm "in use," meaning that it's loaded, holstered, ready at hand. In that since, I "use" a firearm far more often than I use my car.

For what it's worth, on an annual basis, I fire about the same number of rounds of ammo as I drive, roughly 15,000.

[MrBenchley]

30. Too TOO funny...

So you're really telling us that Michael Moore has renounced his position on gun control?

Uh-HUH.

[RoeBear]

54. What are his views?

Do you have a link?

[MrBenchley]

56. Gee, roe...

How many threads have you "enthusiasts" put up howling about Moore's views and falsely accusing him of lying?

You will have noticed that your new friend has no link for his bogus quote...

[RoeBear]

58. Now you are telling...

...me who my friends are?

Seriously though, what are his views? Has he said what he wants in the way of gun control?

[mosin]

62. Gun show conversations

If anyone wants to have a "gun show conversation" with me, I'm probably heading up to the Gun & Knife Show in Dayton, Ohio this coming weekend. I need to pick up some reloading supplies. I'm out of my favorite handgun powder AND primers!

If anyone wants to join me, just send me a PM, and we can discuss where and when to meet. Contrary to stereotypes, I won't be the only black man there. :)

[OpSomBlood]

87. There are plenty of black people at shows in Florida.

And Hispanics.

Oops, so much for the "gun shows are really top-secret Klan meetings" theory.

[enfield collector]

90. same in AZ, a regular cross-section of the public. all races, all

political persuasions.

[beevul]

91. I'll second that...

I have been to several "murphys" gun shows at the yuma county fairgrounds, and a couple others in Lake Havasu. "Cross-section of the public" has been my experience as well.