Common Gun Control Myths.

[GreenStormCloud]

We have seen many statemenst from gun controls advocates that are accepted without question by them but are actually silly myths. I will list some, feel free to add more.
Myths are in bold font.

You will have a hard time knowing who the bad guy is and may shoot the wrong person.
If a criminal is attacking me I don't have much difficulty knowing that the guy with the knife who is demanding my wallet is the bad guy. With almost all life threatening crimes it is extremely obvious who the perp is. In the extremely unlikely event that I should be at a mass shooting then the guy with the gun that is shooting at everybody is the one to shoot.

The criminal will just take your gun away and use it on you.
Where does this belief that criminals are all super-ninjas come from? If I am in a self-defense situation I will shoot as soon as I am on target, no delay to talk. The bad guy will have to try taking it away while I am shooting him.

You will mow down innocent people.
I am not going to be firing wildly in all directions. Further, most criminals will try to isolate their victims so there won't be other people nearby. Most self-defense shootings occur at point-blank range, three to seven feet. At that range it is extremely easy to know who to shoot and to hit that person.

The police may get confused and shoot you.
It is extremely unlikely that the police will be there. The criminal is not going to start a crime if a cop is there. From start to finish the entire event including firing is self-defense will only take a few seconds. Then it is over, and the defender holsters his gun and calls the police.

You should call 911 and let them handle it.
The thugs has pulled a knife to rob me NOW. He won't let me take out a cell phone to make a call. The police will get there after it is all over to draw the chalk lines. I want those line drawn around the thug and not me. Even if I am calling from temporary safety, the police are NOT under any obligation to come to my aid. They may be busy on another call.

You will get shot by other gun carriers.
Hasn't happened yet in real life. Almost doesn't count.

The criminal will have the element of surprise and you won't get a chance to defend yourself.
Armed self-defense classes stress situational awareness. By being aware of what is going on around you one can deny the criminal that critical edge. In fact, by being alert you will likely cause the criminal to pass you by and select someone else who is walking around oblivious to what is happening. Criminals like easy target. Alert people strongly tend to be trouble for them.

Your gun will go off by accident.
My gun is a modern design and is drop-safe. Some people do use older guns or guns with old designs. They shouldn't. I don't.

It isn't moral or legal to kill someone just to defend your property.
The guy is threatening my life. I have no guarantee that he will be happy with just my wallet. He may be unhappy that I only have a few dollars in it. Or he may want to knife me to establish his street creds as a mean MFer. I will be shooting because he is threatening my life and I believe his threat.

The burglar just wants to take some stuff to sell and he will be gone.
There is no guarantee of that. Breaking into my home is in itself an act of violence. If will defend myself and family with no warning.

You will mistakenly kill a family member who got up to go to the bathroom.
Always positively ID your target. We have night lights around the house so that I can see who anybody is at anytime at night.

The criminals will just start shooting first to avoid getting shot.
That isn't happening much in real life. Sometimes it does. Criminals generally don't want to use their guns in public as the noise attracts attention.

You have a fantasy of being a cowboy in the Old West.
Nope. I was raised on a ranch and know what it is like to work cattle. Seriously, I carry because I don't want to be a victim of violent crime.

You should use your fists to fight off a bad guy. A gun give you an unfair advantage.
I don't own any thug a fair fight. I will use ever advantage I can get to win, just like he will.

You carry to intimidate others.
Concealed means CONCEALED. Unless someone is making an attack on me, no one knows I am armed.

You carry because you feel inadequate.
I carry because I AM inadequate to fight off a young mugger.

You carry because you have a small penis.
I am old enough that I don't worry about that anymore. In fact, I never worried about that. My wife carries too.

[villager]

1. "Myths" as rebutted by... you?

n/t

[GreenStormCloud]

8. Yes. If you disagree you my try rational argument. N/T

[villager]

10. Just as long as we're clear these are your personal opinions and conjectures

n/t

[sailor65]

13. No, they aren't

other than the ones obviously meant to be humorous, this is common knowledge among all who have had proper training. Go and get some training yourself and then you'll know it to. Wouldn't it be nice to not have to borrow your opinions from others?

[villager]

21. um, yes they are. Unless you want to point me to a "missing link" in that post?

:shrug:

[GreenStormCloud]

22. You should be able to use common sense and logic. N/T

[villager]

28. Took the words right out of my mouth!

Though since it's you rebutting "myths," who calls them "myths," exactly?

Other than, you know, you? (Or maybe the NRA?)

So, that'd be your first citation.

Otherwise, we're back to opinion and conjecture. To which you're entitled. Just quit trying to pass it off as something else.

[GreenStormCloud]

29. So you refuse to rebut using logic.

For things that are common knowledge or common sense one does not need to list some authority figure as a reference. I tend not to like the argument from authority and to make my own arguments. I have lived a bunch of years and have learned a good bit in those years. Try thinking for yourself, it is very liberating.

[villager]

66. this is kind of ridiculous -- that *is* your post using the word "myths," yes?

And thus, "myth" is your word, your extrapolation?

[GreenStormCloud]

67. If you disagree, debate me. Pick one of the myths and defend it. N/T

[villager]

68. You've just created a bunch of strawmen to justify carrying guns, that's all.

"I have a gun to shoot an isolated bad guy at point blank range just in case."

That's what it all boils down to. Meanwhile, one teenager shot another in Utah today. Not a myth. And you want to spread guns around.

Which kind of shooting do you think becomes more likely?

[GreenStormCloud]

69. Do you even know what a strawman is?

In the strawman fallacy the person giving the argument creates a false, weak form of the opponents argument which he then attacks. In my OP each of the myths has actually been posted by an anti-gunner. So I am taking exact arguments from anti-gunners and countering them. You have yet to engage me on any of them. Yes, I carry for self-defense and the most likely scenario will be at point-blank range. The teenager was illegally armed. How would disarming me have done anything about him? Disarming me only makes me an easier target.

[villager]

70. do you even know what an actual direct response is?

Never mind -- it's a rhetorical question.

in any case, you don't have any "myths" -- simply "situations" to which your repeated response is: "but that won't happen to me."

That's all.

Growing up on a ranch sounds nice, btw....

[GreenStormCloud]

72. False. My responses are detailed and not, "but that won't happen to me."

You have nothing but insults. You have refused to debate on any of the myths. Each myth is a statement that has actually been made by an anti-gunner.

[TheWraith]

71. Accidental shooting deaths in the US number less than a thousand a year.

In comparison, the most cautious and minimal figure for defensive gun uses is a quarter million a year. Another figure--one compiled by an extremely well respected criminologist who's also a liberal Democrat and ACLU member, Gary Kleck--estimates two million defensive gun uses per year.

[bbinacan]

9. Can you offer a confirmation

that the myths are not myths?:eyes:

[RSillsbee]

26. Feel free to refute any or all of them

We'll wait

[lawodevolution]

2. Good post

[GeorgiaPeach]

3. How very nice for you.

[cleanhippie]

6. Wow. Your very first post is a snide, insulting comment?

Enjoy your stay, I think Dominoes is on the way....

[GeorgiaPeach]

18. What on earth was wrong with patting him on the back?

[GreenStormCloud]

19. Looks like he misunderstood your comment as sarcasm.

Welcome to DU. We have lots of lively debates down here.

[cleanhippie]

23. Really, that was a compliment? Really?

:eyes:

[Common Sense Party]

40. Well, bless your heart!

[Maine_Nurse]

4. Great post! nt

[RamboLiberal]

31. +1000 I agree - well done

[DWC]

37. Excellent post. we need more like it. n/t

[Hangingon]

5. You make sense.

[bbinacan]

7. Outstanding post! n/t

[sailor65]

11. Very good post

and very accurate....

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sailor65]

14. Other than your fearful response,

can you offer insight as to exactly how the OP is "Wrong?"

[GreenStormCloud]

16. I am only scarry if I should be attacked. Otherwise I love kittens and puppies.

At my age I don't think I have 20 years left in me. What about me scares you? Are you a criminal who attacks innocent people?

[Maine_Nurse]

20. If you find him/her scary, you should probably go live in a cave somewhere remote.

[cleanhippie]

24. Or maybe you can reread the post and realize NOW that you are wrong.

What is REALLY scary is your willful ignorance.

[Callisto32]

46. Dangerous and scary are two different things.

Everyone has the right to be dangerous.

[Union Scribe]

52. Why, are you a mugger or something?

[maxsolomon]

15. Preaching to the Choir & arguing with Straw Men.

It sounds like you live in a war zone.

[GreenStormCloud]

17. Every one of the myths has been posted here by a gun control advocate.

Violent crime is a reality. It has been declining sharply but it hasn't gone away.

[maxsolomon]

57. Reality or not, Violent Crime never enters my mind.

Of course the possibility is never eliminated; Americans have huge aresenals and are extremely angry.

Do you live in a War Zone or not?

[GreenStormCloud]

60. May you continue to be lucky as you ignore crime. N/T

[cleanhippie]

25. An OP cannot be a strawman. YOUR comment is a strawman.

He proposes an argument, a strawman would follow, like your comment.

Education. Its whats for dinner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

[maxsolomon]

56. OK then. What I mean is this:

he's tossing himself softballs.

[GreenStormCloud]

61. Every myth I posted has actually been said here by anti-gunners.

It is noteworthy that you have not selected any of the myths to defend them. You just gripe that you don't like my post but offfer no refutation of it.

[Hoopla Phil]

35. LMAO!!! Ha Ha Ha. Here is proof of one of the myths right here. . .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x386824

[maxsolomon]

55. Internet posts are "Proof"?

I'm glad you're not my scientist. Anyway, I think you meant "refutation". How is observing that the OP SOUNDS like he lives in a war zone a "myth"? I call that an opinion.

I have to wonder if you Gun-Liberty Absolutists think about anything else during the day. You've already won the argument - every politician remotely likely to propose limits on Gun-Liberty has been cowed into submissino or hounded out of office. You have all the guns a human being could want. Arizona keeps passing laws to let you carry 24/7, in every conceivable location, even in the face of Gifford's shooting. Yet still you pick fights with the fictional Ghosts of Gun Control Past.

You won. Unholster the weapon and take a break already. You've earned it.

[Hoopla Phil]

58. You claimed that the OP was "arguing with Straw Men."

And if you bothered to read reply NUMBER 1 to my link you find this little gym:

"However, the last thing I want around is a gun. Any thug worth the name would just take it away from me and shoot me with it."

Which is exactly in line with item 2 in this O.P. "The criminal will just take your gun away and use it on you."


The OP is not "arguing with Straw Men", it is posting the asinine arguments that can be found right here on DU - if you bother to look.

[Kennah]

27. Penis theory attacks on gun owners

GUNS, MURDERS, AND THE CONSTITUTION
A Realistic Assessment of Gun Control
By Don B. Kates, Jr.

http://www.guncite.com/journals/gun_control_katesreal.html#h5.1

Read PEJORATIVE CHARACTERIZATIONS OF GUN OWNERSHIP, The Penis Theory.

Here's a small snippet, pardon the pun.

In these other passages Freud associates retarded sexual and emotional development not with gun ownership, but with fear and loathing of weapons. The probative importance that ought to be attached to the views of Freud is, of course, a matter of opinion. The point here is only that those views provide no support for the penis theory of gun ownership.

[Callisto32]

47. I'm not sure about the sexual development, but think Freud was onto something with emotional...

"Fear and loathing of weapons" has, in my experience, typically been coupled with the inability to see past the tool, and look to the tool user. The same folks who view weapons this way often anthropomorphize inanimate objects, as well.

[Hoopla Phil]

62. My favorite Freud quote - "Sometimes a cigar is, just a cigar." n/t

[Kennah]

30. You will get shot by other gun carriers

I know of exactly one incident where a concealed carrier was killed while using their gun to try and stop a criminal attack. If anyone knows of others, please post.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_courthouse_shooting

Mark Allen Wilson
Tyler, TX
Feb 24, 2005

IMHO, Wilson made some very unsound tactical decisions: moving into harms way with no compelling reason to intervene, engaging an armed man who was already engaged by law enforcement officers, confronting someone armed with a rifle while armed with only a handgun.

I also know of exactly one incident where a concealed carrier was seriously injured while using their gun to try and stop a criminal attack. If anyone knows of others, please post. Other carriers have been injured, but I don't of any who've suffered what might be termed serious, debilitating, or crippling injuries.

That said, Wilson's actions were credited as heroic and helping to stop Arroyo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacoma_Mall_shooting

Dan McKown
Tacoma, WA
Nov 25, 2005

IMHO, McKown made some very unsound tactical decisions: he did not first immediately move to cover, and he gave verbal commands to an active shooter when the only choices are either shoot or remain behind cover. The time for talk is over when someone is actively shooting, and they'll never hear your verbal commands.

That said, McKown's actions were credited as heroic, and he in fact did stop further attack or infliction of injuries by Maldonado.

[GreenStormCloud]

33. In both cases they were shot by the criminal.

Having a gun is no guarantee. Sometimes the criminal wins the gunfight. With better tactic the both guys would have survived and possibly won the fight. Definately the second guy shoud have taken cover and opened fire immediately with no warning.

[Kennah]

32. The police may get confused and shoot you.

While the potential exists, I invite anyone to post even one instance of this ever happening.

I learned how to interact with both responding officers and investigating officers in my training.

[GreenStormCloud]

34. Me too, and there are tactics books available.

The first thing you do after the shooting is over is to put your gun up. If you see the police arriving and the fight is still going on, if at all possible put your gun up.

If you are holding the perp at gunpoint try to have your permit in hand and raised where they can see it.

If you can't do that, well, good luck.

[TheCowsCameHome]

36. Well, thank God that's settled, once and for all.

This is better than the Onion.

[cleanhippie]

39. Thats all you have, sophomoric demonization? I guess so, when it puts to rest ALL of your arguments

:nuke: <== your arguments

[Callisto32]

48. ....

:spray:


":nuke: <== your arguments"


LOL

[Kennah]

38. You will mow down innocent people.

There was recently an incident in which a 17 year old girl shot and killed a man who attacked her Aunt and tried to attack her. The two bullets fired passed through the attacker and wounded the Aunt. The Aunt's injuries were not fatal.

Without knowing what ammunition was used, it's hard to comment on the issue of excess penetration. However, I think a .38 Special +P+ is a better choice than a .357 Magnum. There are some very good, light 110 grain .357 Magnum loads, but there are also some ferociously overpowered, for home protection, .357 loads that are only appropriate for hunting game animals.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50895646-76/pursel-sharp-whinham-police.html.csp

I invite anyone to post instances where innocent bystanders have been killed by gun carriers out and about or gun owners in their homes shooting in self defense.

[old mark]

43. IMO, a .357 round is too much for defense...I own and carry several

.357's and use .38 Spl +P ammo in themunless I am in the woods.
But there are several manufacturere that load the .357 for defense use, too...
And it does have a reputation as being very effective.

mark

[oneshooter]

65. A seventeen year old can not have a CHL. FAIL

A seventeen year old can not legally buy, own or posses a handgun. FAIL

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

41. I'm curious about one of the statements.

You said,

You will get shot by other gun carriers.
Hasn't happened yet in real life. Almost doesn't count.

That leads me to this question: How many times have you had to shoot someone who was attacking you in real life?

For that matter, can you tell me if there are any statistics on crimes that are stopped by someone carrying?

Now I'm not talking here about a store-owner with a gun behind the counter, or a homeowner with a gun in his home. I talking about a guy on the street, carrying a gun who actually shoots somebody to stop a mugging or robbery. Does that happen often? Because I just don't hear about it.

And I'm asking respectively, not argumentatively.

[old mark]

44. This might give you some information- it is an old survey, but one that has been

relied on by many since the mid 1990's, when it started to change a lot of minds on gun control...(The anti-gun people really hate it.)

mark

[Callisto32]

49. The reason you don't hear about it is because it isn't news.

"Mugging averted, no harm done" is a crappy headline that won't sell any papers/subscriptions.

Many don't even report it to the police, so the data that we do have is often based on self-reporting...

It's one of those things that are very difficult to know.

[GreenStormCloud]

51. Personally, I haven't had to defend myself. My wife has twice defended herself.

My wife worked at a warehouse in a high-crime area about five years ago. The warehouse had been burglarized several times. She was always the first to arrive at work and had the combination for the door. The warehouse was on one block dead-end street, 100 feet wide so trucks could back into the dock doors. We talked about how sooner or later a street criminal would notice that an older woman alway arrived alone and had the combination. Why waste effort breaking in when you could make the small older woman open the door. Of course she would have to be silenced once the door was opened. Twice she was accosted. The details, which would take several paragraphs were such that no one doubts that she was about to be attacked. Luckily due the the extreme width of the street the bad guy had to start his approach from across the street. Both times they ran away when they discovered that she was armed.

Aside from that I know a woman who used her gun to prevent herself from being carjacked. But I know that about her because I knew her at the time it happened.

Once it becomes old news most people continue with their lives and the subject rarely comes up. So you can know someone and never know that they once used a gun to defend themselves.

Stastics for Defensive Gun Uses (DGU) vary greatly and are very difficult to collect. Studies range from Kleck's 2.5 million annual DGUs to another study's 108,000 annually. Both studies are old from when not many citizens carried concealed. Consider my wife's two incidents. The crime was stopped. Since the crime didn't happen there are some here on DU who claim that my wife exegerated the danger and over-reacted. That is a common accusation by anti-gun people to claims by people of using their guns to defend themselves. I will admit that it is a foggy area. Very few DGUs actually involve shots fired. Most of the time the criminal retreats when he see that the victim is armed. Criminals are not combat soldiers trying to take an objective. They are predators seeking an easy prey. They don't want to get shot and will usually run away from an armed victim.

Complicating things is that most DGUs are not reported to the police. After all, the crime was prevented, so there are no serious charges to be filed.

However such shootings do occur. I just googled "CCW shooting stories" and YouTube has a bunch of videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1evT61Qp_Q

Good Samaritan Kills Woman's Attacker http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soZT__WQKsM&NR=1

Armed Citizen Halts Liquor Store Robbery http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8oEO_MV57I&feature=related

Bank Customer Pulls Gun, Stops Robber http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDs-yGTdPFo&feature=related

Man at ATM Shoots Armed Robbers http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Blq_a_lqDBs&feature=related

There are various websites that collect such stories from newspapers: http://www.keepandbeararms.com/opsd/default.asp

[Kennah]

53. Are you asking about media surveys or government statistics?

If the former, then there's this.

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html

If the latter, then I would refer you to the FBI UCR, Expanded Offense Data, Tables 14 (Justifiable Homicide by Weapon, Law Enforcement, 2005–2009) and 15 (Justifiable Homicide by Weapon, Private Citizen, 2005–2009).

http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/index.html
http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/expanded_information/index.html
http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_14.html
http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_15.html

Table 15 isn't limited to concealed carriers. However, am I to seriously believe that in 2009 law enforcement stopped a mere 406 crimes because that's the number of justifiable homicides by law enforcement?

[old mark]

42. K&R- Thanks for the OP-I respect and agree with your answers, and just want to add

that the overwhelming majority of gun owners that I know have given a lot of thought to the remifications of carrying a gun and have decided to do it after such thought and reflection.

We are not terrible people, or stupid or uncaring people.

mark

[Callisto32]

45. This.

[GKirk]

50. That...

...and the other thing.

[Callisto32]

54. *facepalm

It means "what he said."

I thought that was clear.

[Mugweed]

59. yawn

You have too much time on your hands. Worse yet, you use it to sit around thinking about guns and pretending you're some kind of fact machine.

[GreenStormCloud]

63. So feel free to refute any of my statements if you think I am wrong.

This is the "Guns" forum of a political discussion site. I post here because I enjoy it. What I do with my time is my business and not subject to your approval.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

64. bkmrkng. thanks for posting.