yes i'm glad you asked:

[CreekDog]

Top 10 states in gun ownership: (average rate of gun ownership: 43% average gun death rate: 16.6)
Bottom 10 states in gun ownership: (average rate of gun ownership: 5.1 average gun death rate: 5.1)

and if you think they are all getting pushed out of windows in non-gun owning states, well, compare Mississippi to New York City (or State). the rate of murders in New York state is far lower than Mississippi, in fact, New York City's murder rate is lower than Mississippi's.

and here are the numbers I used...but again, i don't believe in a million years that any number i post will ever, ever lead you to say, "thank you, that's a good analysis." and your evidence for not doing so will be specious.

%OWN / GUN DEATHRATE
LA 44.1 19.9
MI 38.4 18.3
AK 57.8 17.6
AL 51.7 17.6
NV 33.8 16.2
AR 55.3 15.1
AZ 31.1 15
NM 34.8 15
TN 43.9 15
WV 55.4 14.8
MT 57.7 14.5
WY 59.7 14.5
KY 47.7 14.4
OK 42.9 13.4
SC 42.3 13.4
GA 40.3 13.1
MS 55.3 12.9
FL 24.5 12.5
ID 55.3 12.5
NC 41.3 12.3
MD 21.3 12.1
MN 41.7 10.9
PA 34.7 10.7
TX 35.9 10.7
VA 35.1 10.7
IN 39.1 10.6
KS 42.1 10.5
CO 34.7 10.4
OR 39.8 10.4
OH 32.4 9.6
UT 43.9 9.5
DE 25.5 9.2
CA 21.3 9
ND 50.7 8.9
WI 44.4 8.7
WA 33.1 8.5
VT 42 8.4
ME 40.5 8.1
IL 20.2 8
NE 38.6 8
MO 41.7 6.6
SD 56.6 6.5
NH 30 5.9
IA 42.8 5.3
NJ 12.3 5.2
NY 18 5.1
CT 16.7 4.3
MA 12.6 3.6
RI 12.8 3.5
HI 8.7 2.8

Least restrictive gun laws:
GUN DEATH RATE /RANK (least to most restrictive gun laws)
AZ 15 1
ID 12.5 2
VT 8.4 3
MI 18.3 4
KY 14.4 5
NM 15 6
AR 15.1 7
WY 14.5 8
ME 8.1 9
MT 14.5 10
AK 17.6 11
MO 12.9 12
GA 13.1 13
KS 10.5 14
ND 8.9 15
SD 6.5 16
OK 13.4 17
UT 9.5 18
NE 8 19
SC 13.4 20
IN 10.6 21
NV 16.2 22
LA 19.9 23
CO 10.4 24
WV 14.8 25
NH 5.9 26
AL 17.6 27
NC 12.3 28
OH 9.6 29
OR 10.4 30
TN 15 31
TX 10.7 32
DE 9.2 33
WI 8.7 34
VA 10.7 35
MN 6.6 36
WA 8.5 37
IA 5.3 38
MI 10.9 39
PA 10.7 40
FL 12.5 41
RI 3.5 42
NY 5.1 43
MD 12.1 44
IL 8 45
CT 4.3 46
HI 2.8 47
MA 3.6 48
NJ 5.2 49
CA 9 50

[shadowrider]

1. Again it's a case of "I said it, believe it". Care to site

actual documentation, links, websites etc. that back your claim?

[CreekDog]

2. you didn't even go through the data in my post (data you asked for)

you responded faster than you ever could have examined the post or the data.

you're just jerking my chain.

[shadowrider]

3. No sir. With all respect, I asked you to back your claim with something other than "I said it"

Nothing more, nothing less.

By your logic, I should believe everything negative I hear about Obama simply because someone said it (with no proof to back the claim).

I don't operate that way. I believe nothing until I can verify, through seperate means, something someone says.

[CreekDog]

4. how is your verification going to work?

i'll provide it after you explain how you will verify the veracity of the data?

[shadowrider]

5. Give me the link(s) and let me look at it. My calculations may be different

than yours. If so, we can discuss how we each arrived at our conclusions in a civil manner.

[CreekDog]

6. the data is in my other posts

you can go grab it.

i'm asking what your verification process will be to determine if the links are legitimate.

yes, i'm doubting the good faith of this effort, but if you explain yourself, i'm willing to reconsider.

[shadowrider]

7. Your other posts on this thread or a different one?

[CreekDog]

8. this one, here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=357498&mesg_id=357945

[shadowrider]

9. From what website did you get that info? Not doubting, just want to check it for myself n/t

[CreekDog]

11. why?

let me just say right here, right now, that if i do so, here's what you will do:

you will say that the source is bad. oh, you might try to calculate it yourself beforehand, but if the results show (as they will) that gun deaths are higher where gun ownership is higher, you will poo-poo the data source.

just so everyone knows. although i do plan to put out a reference to the source, i know what will follow when i do. and it doesn't matter if the source is me, Harvard, the FBI, your grandmother, if the numbers don't fit your philosophy, you will be all over them like a cheap suit.

[shadowrider]

13. ok, so we're back to square one

"You said it, I should believe it" with no source to verify whether or not what you say is correct.

[CreekDog]

14. it's a point i want to make

and i want to call attention to it to either prevent it, or to make obvious the tactic that is used in these arguments.

so now, if you do it, hopefully others will see it. if you don't --good on you.

[Atypical Liberal]

10. All I know is...

All I know is that the CDC did a study and the best they could say is there was no detectable benefit to gun control laws.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2003/oct/6/20031006-085844-8119r/

This was done back in 2000.

My understanding from the FBI UCR data is that firearm crime continues to decline, in spite of record sales of firearms and ammunition.

Where are you getting your data?

[CreekDog]

12. as you can see there was an error in the cutting and pasting:

this should clear it up...but slice the numbers both ways, as I did, you still get the same outcomes:

Top 10 states in gun ownership: (average rate of gun ownership: 56% average gun death rate: 13.5)

Bottom 10 states in gun ownership: (average rate of gun ownership: 5.1 17% average gun death rate: 6.6)

Top 10 states in gun deaths: (average rate of gun ownership: 45% average gun death rate: 13.5)

Bottom 10 states in gun deaths: (average rate of gun ownership: 25% average gun death rate: 4.9)