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Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Guns Donate to DU
 
Nuclear Unicorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:38 PM
Original message
Well, this is new (to me anyway)
I was texting the BF to tell him how many pro-gun democrats/progressives there are (he's conservative). I figure he'd be tickled to hear that he has allies on this side of the fence and that I was getting so many kudos for my peace-making efforts.

He texted back to me, "google pink pistols"

OK

This is what I found:

The Pink Pistols are a gay gun rights organization in the United States and Canada. Their mottos are "Pick on someone your own caliber" and "Armed gays don't get bashed." Inspired by a Salon.com article written by Jonathan Rauch,<1> Doug Krick, a libertarian activist from Massachusetts, founded the Pink Pistols in July 2000. The organization now has 60 Chapters in 33 states and three countries that are principally made up of gun-owning LGBT individuals, though neither status is mandatory for membership.<2>

The political orientation of the Pink Pistols is considered unusual due to the popular perception in the United States of firearms ownership as a "conservative issue" and sexuality as a "liberal issue." However, there is nothing within either of these two single-issues that is mutually exclusive and a variety of other pro-gun organizations exist for groups not typically associated with gun rights (for example the "Democrats for the Second Amendment").


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_Pistols

I never knew.
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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. two more!!
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 06:49 PM by virginia mountainman
http://progunprogressive.com /

http://www.a2dems.net /

EDIT, their are several, I just can't link you to them right now

Their lots of good, solid, pro gun, Democrats!
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Travis Coates Donating Member (489 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. Armed gays don't get bashed. NT
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Nuclear Unicorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. That really struck me.
My bestest buddy ever is gay.

Guns give me the heeby-jeebies but the thought of him being bashed tears my heart out.

I don't know if I could ever point a gun AT someone...but if he/I could show a gun to scare them away...

...yeah, maybe.
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Travis Coates Donating Member (489 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. If you're considering brandishing a weapon as a scare tactic
you might really want toread this article by Masaad Ayoob

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...g=content ;col1

Later identified as belonging to one of the "big four" outlaw motorcycle clubs, Too Loose and Papa Zoot were members of an armed subculture themselves. They did not fear guns. Zoot was about 6'4" and 240 himself, and neither man feared big guys dressed like something off the cover of an L.L. Bean catalog. It is critical to understand this: Criminals don't fear guns. Criminals fear resolutely armed men or women they believe will actually shoot them.
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Nuclear Unicorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. OK, the wimp in me is coming out
I can't imagine shooting another human being.

I know, I know. Self-defense. Him or me. Dead or raped. etc etc etc

I still just can't see myself doing it. It scares me to pieces.
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Travis Coates Donating Member (489 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. If you train for it muscle memory takes over and you just do it
I've had to use a firearm in self defense 3 times and in no instance did the thought even enter my mind. I never had to actually shoot but in one instance the criminal stood down as I was taking up slack on the trigger.
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TPaine7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. I wish the world was peaceful and violence was never necessary.
I am certain that I wish it more resolutely than most folks. I HATE suffering, especially unnecessary suffering.

Nevertheless, after some serious thinking on the subject, I have concluded that refusing to resort to violence in some instances is morally wrong.

Here's a little of my thinking on why it is moral to use force against a deadly assailant, or even to kill him (or her):

Whats the value of your life? The value of mine? Are we of equal value? What about the guy living under the bridge or the runaway strung out on dope and forced to peddle her wares on the corner?

Jefferson, brilliant hypocrite that he was, penned the immortal words that form Americas answerall men are created equal. I may not be as smart as you, or as tall or as good looking, but I am your peer. We have the same privileges, status, or rights; we are equal before the law (dictionary.com). Jefferson was right, or at least his words were.

Personally, I take things further. I value all sentient life, not just the lives of human beings. I found the recent story of a woman killing animals for the sexual gratification of her viewers horrifyingly obscenefar worse than any consensual act between adults. I believe that depictions of such events, even cartoons, should be banned just like child pornography, the Supreme Court notwithstanding. Not that children and animals are equal, and not that sexual exploitation of animals is as bad a thing as the violation of children, but that animal abuse is also wrong.

I believe in the rights of the sentientthat which can suffer is entitled to protection from unnecessary pain. In other words, entities capable of suffering have the right not to be subjected to gratuitous, unnecessary suffering. They have this right by virtue of the fact that they can suffer. That too is self evident in my book.

And yet, while holding the idealistic, bleeding heart ideas expressed above, I still believe that not all men (read human beings) are equal. At this moment, there are human beings whose lives are worth less than yours and mine. They are alsoof necessityworth less than the lives of the people under the bridge or the lives of the crack whores on the corner.

No, I didnt just contradict myself. The fact that all of us are created with the same privileges, status, or rights doesnt mean that we remain so. There actually are people whose lives are worth less than those of other humans by any morally sound measure. Much less.

If all of us are created equal, let us call that worth H1 human value. Your life is worth H and my life is worth H. Your childs life is worth H.

Assuming that you are a decent human beingwhich incidentally has nothing whatsoever to do with your privileges, status or rightsyou will value my life highly. You would go out of your way to preserve my life or prevent my unnecessary suffering.

But I could change your valuation of my life. If I attacked your child, if I posed a mortal threat, you wouldassuming again that you are a decent persondo whatever you could to stop me. If necessary you would kill me. And you would be correct. IN THE MOMENT OF MY DEADLY CRIMINAL ASSAULT, you would value your childs life more than mine. (I know, I know, you do that anyway. Keep reading.)

How much more would your childs life be worth than mine? Lets think it through. What if there were two of me? After you killed the first one, the second one was still hell-bent on deadly assault. Once again you wouldassuming that you are a decent persondo whatever you could to stop me. If necessary you would kill me. And you would be correct. Again.

The answer is the same for 3, and 4, and 5 and 1 trillion of me. In fact, there is no number of my livesIN THE MOMENT OF MY DEADLY CRIMINAL ASSAULTthat are worth the life of your single, solitary innocent child. An infinite number of my lives are not worth 1 H.

Ok, but your child is special, you say. It doesnt matter. Substitute the neighbors kid. Or the old lady who lives down the street. Or someone you never met. Substitute that guy at work you cant stand. Or the crack whore. The math should work out the same. I only used your child because it made the initial example stronger.

By engaging in an unjustified deadly assault against another human being, I HAVE REDUCED MY VALUE TO ESSENTIALLY ZERO FOR THE DURATION OF THE THREAT. The moment I break off my assault, I regain my worth. Then you should call an ambulance to help me. If you can safely do so, you may even choose to administer medical assistance (after seeing to the victim, of course).

This is just my humble opinion, mind you. But I think everything Ive said is morally and logically justified. I also think that many who favor self-defense rights and the RKBA intuitively agree with what Ive said.

Logic and morality support this conclusion, not hardheartedness or emotionalism. Yes, there is emotionyou were emotional about your kid, werent you? But the issue isnt whether there is emotion, the issue is whether there is naked, irrational emotion. The issue is whether a decent person can follow the logic and apply both sides of it to himself.

If a decent person who thinks like this sees a man stabbing a woman, he doesnt concern himself with the mans safety. He doesnt try to shoot the knife out of the guys hand or try to wound his stabbing shoulder. His only concerns are the lives of the woman, the lives of any bystanders and his own life. The assailants life is worth less than 1 H, infinitely less. It does not even merit consideration IN THE MOMENT OF THE DEADLY CRIMINAL ASSAULT.

You yourself agree with the action, if you will but accept the valuation. If you had Bill Gates and Warren Buffets combined fortunes, would you bet them at Vegas hoping to win a penny? Betting any innocent persons life against a felons IN THE MOMENT OF THE FELONS DEADLY CRIMINAL ASSAULT is worse.

Infinitely worse.


I know you can see how the same logic applies to your friend. If he were in mortal danger and to save his life you had to chose between shooting a basher or watching, the moral choice is clear.

Imagine yourself a week later. Which could you justify to your conscience more easily--watching or shooting? Let YOUR conscience be the judge. The only remaining question is whether it is more moral to be prepared for that moment to let it catch you unprepared. That last question comes into clear focus when you love someone likely to be attacked.

Of course you will chose your own answers, but that's the path from where you are to where we are.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Knowing your own limitations is never a bad thing...
and is often the first step to expanding your horizons.
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. I hope I never have to but I KNOW if I ever draw my pistol in a self defense situation
it WILL go bang. Let me explain.

As a young adult I participated in lots of shooting competitions. One is called IPSC and it deals with pistols. Lots of shooting, running to different shooting areas and shooting some more. This is all done with a timer and scoring is based on hitting the correct targets the most accurately vs. your time. It really is a lot of fun.

So in 95 we got our concealed carry law in Texas and I took it upon myself to get extra training for this. One drill we were running was to, on the range officers command (it was a buzzer of some sort) to draw our weapon and bring it to the low ready position. Now we were doing this on the range with targets at 10 yards and our pistols empty. I could not go to the low ready position as hard as I tried. EVERY time the buzzer went off I reflexively drew, aimed at center mass and pulled the trigger. Years of playing the IPSC game had ingrained in me this muscle memory reflex. This class taught me a very valuable lesson!

I've been following your posts today and want to thank you for your interaction. There is a program on TV that, IIRC, is 30 days. It deals with putting a person in a completely different life style for 30 days and see how it goes. There was one where a person that was a gun prohibitionist went to stay with a very pro gun family for 30 days. She got to learn about them, shoot guns, and even worked at a gun store for a while to really immerse her in the "culture". It was very cool and reading your threads today reminded me of that show. Anyhow, thank you.
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Iktomiwicasa Donating Member (942 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. Any normal person...
...loathes the idea of having to kill another human being. If you aren't frightened and upset at the reality of perhaps having to do it to save your own life or the life of loved ones, there is something wrong with you. But the bottom line for me is that I value my own life and the life of my family and people more than the life of someone who would attempt to take that away.
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. Sorry. NEVER use a gun to bluff with.
That is a good way to get yourself killed. Street criminals can be very good at reading body language and tell that you won't shoot. My wife carries a gun, legally. She has her permit. When I was training her, we discussed if she could actually pull the trigger on an assailant. If you can't pull the trigger, leave the gun alone.
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TPaine7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
5. The more you look into this subject, the more surprises you'll find.
Some of them will make your jaw drop. I know from personal experience; I once opposed gun rights.
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Nuclear Unicorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Watching the gun forum today
I can see how there is debate from both sides.

But the fact that I see points from the pro-gun side I suppose says something.

They still creep me out though.
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Travis Coates Donating Member (489 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. They creep you out because you are unfamiliar W/ them
Experience will teach you that they are machines. They are inanimate and incapable of self motivation (IOW they can't do anything until you make them) There's a loaded gun on my computer table right now. It's just sitting there It's been loaded since the day I bought it two years ago , hasn't gone off by itself yet.
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
11. That reminds me..
.. I need to ping the rest of the local chapter and see if we need to have another range day. :)
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 07:53 PM
Response to Original message
14. I teach firearms safety, mostly to women and gays
Its a very different process than you typical guy class. Lots of discussion about when and why. Also since most students have no prior background, they have fewer bad habit to overcome. I also host shoots occasionally, the last one being Memorial Day.

The entire concept of gays supporting RKBA and actually doing so drives the ideologues nuts, including some DUers. Some of the worst treatment the Pink Pistols have gotten comes from some of the so called leadership of the GLBT community. They hang in and I continue to support them.

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