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Gunfree Englewood (Chicago) : 15-year-old bystander shot after road rage incident

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Indy Lurker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 10:48 AM
Original message
Gunfree Englewood (Chicago) : 15-year-old bystander shot after road rage incident


Englewood is a Chicago neighborhood with about 40,000 residents, and a large amount of gang crime.

As with the rest of Chicago, It's illegal to register and own a handgun.

*************************************************************

Imagine how much worse this neighborhood would be if handgun guns weren't illegal.




Gunfree Englewood (Chicago) : 15-year-old bystander shot after road rage incident


August 6, 2009 12:37 PM | 1 Comment
A 15-year-old boy was shot in the neck after a man involved in fender-bender with another driver brandished a handgun and began shooting on an Englewood street, police said.

The boy was a bystander and did not know either of the drivers, who got into an argument at about 10:30 p.m. Wednesday on the 6900 block of South Throop, said Chicago Police Officer JoAnn Taylor.
A blue Oldsmobile and a red Pontiac were involved in the minor accident. The drivers, both men, jumped out of the vehicles and began arguing, Taylor said. The man driving the Oldsmobile brandished a handgun and began shooting "blindly," Taylor said.

" had nothing to do with the accident,'' said Taylor.

The boy was listed in serious condition earlier today at the University of Chicago Comer Children's Hospital, Taylor said.

Police were looking for an African-American man in his 20s about 5-foot-8 to 5-foot-10, weighing between 150 to 170 pounds, Taylor said. No one was in custody, Taylor said.
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
1. Gun and ammo eradication needs to be NATIONAL policy.
Otherwise, guns and ammo flow in from nearby gun worshipping areas.
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. no, in this forum they will argue the victim should've had *open carry*
Edited on Sat Aug-08-09 11:04 AM by villager
or concealed carry, whatever -- he just should've been strapped! -- that way, the 15 year-old could've fired back -- at someone, maybe -- before he died....

Much more Second Amendment-y that way, doncha know?
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
38. That's odd I've never seen anyone here pushing CCW's for children. Link please.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Yeah, we can see how well that worked for England.
Because they have NO VIOLENT CRIME AT ALL! :eyes:
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. It's a process pointed in the correct direction. Not the free fire zone the USA is headed toward.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Since violent crime rates are falling in America
it would a appear that we are on the right path. How do you explain rising gun ownership and falling crime rates?
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yost69 Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. My guess is
the bad guys don't know who is going to fight back? Am I close? I bet I am.
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. Your stats are cold blooded. Three women killed & nine wounded on Tuesday while exercising.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #13
27. So any death justifies limiting civil rights?
how many killed on Tuesday due to drunk drivers? Care to bet more than three? Why are you so complacent to their deaths? Perhaps they don't serve your agenda?
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #27
33. A faith-based reaction trumps all that "logic" and "facts" nonsense.
The hell with those elitist "numbers" and "statistics," they KNOW that America is more violent, therefore it's true. The essence of truthiness.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 04:55 AM
Response to Reply #6
31. *cough*



Not to rain on your parade, but their direction is upward.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. Yes, just like our 80-year-old national heroin ban, or our national cannabis ban.
As we all know, those bans have made it completely impossible for those willing to break the law to obtain heroin and pot.

Oh, wait, heroin and pot are easier to obtain in an urban area than prescription foot powder is. Oops.

Thing is, 80 million of us already lawfully own close to a third of a BILLION firearms in this country, and tens of billions of rounds of ammunition. We choose to keep them, thanks...
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Yes, feel free to keep them. But there is no need to allow the retail sale of new ones.
Pinch it off at the source. Turn the tide. We will be working through the current pool for decades. Let's start now.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. How do you prevent smuggling?
you really think criminals will have any problem getting weapons? Especially when there is a buck to be made?
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. You can't prevent smuggling. You shut it down where it is detected and seize contraband.
Eradication is the ideal. Scarcity is the practical objective. Reduction is the baseline measure of improvement.

You don't even need to criminally prosecute. Take their cargo, take their money, let them free and monitor them for the next attempt.

That's my attitude toward contraband generally. Don't focus on imprisonment because it just cultivates desperadoes.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #14
34. We can't stop importation of heroin. What makes you think we could stop guns?
And guns can be manufactured domestically with ease, heroin can't. You really should read the history of prohibition. The fact of the matter is that as long as there is a demand, there will be a supply. That's been amply proven in countries like England, where they still have guns despite their being banned, they're just now all illegally held. Worse yet, you cultivate an illegal black market that criminalizes anyone who wants or needs a firearm, INCREASING the illegal demand instead of decreasing it.

Banning guns is like trying to treat a cold by blowing your nose more often--it's just a symptom, not the problem itself.
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yost69 Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #1
10. Well I am all for eradication
Edited on Sat Aug-08-09 11:49 AM by yost69
I say we get rid of the automobiles, car wrecks kill 4 times more people than firearms. If there were no cars then this shooting would never have happened in the first place.

I already know the argument. If we didn't have guns in this country than this situation would have never occurred. Obviously this was a case of road rage, not some demented hothead out looking for a kill. Had the shooter been a law abiding citizen he would not have had the firearm in the first place. Obviously he was a criminal, carrying where he should not have been. Maybe not convicted, but one none the less.

Work on the laws already in place. If you can't get them to work how on earth are you going to get new ones to work? Stricter punishment is the answer not taking away law abiding citizens rights. Make it so the crime is not worth the punishment. I bet that if the penalty for a convicted felon caught with a firearm in their possession was losing their right index finger, there would be far less criminals possessing firearms. Oh shit i'm sorry that would be inhumane treatment of a CRIMINAL. Give me a fucking break.

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. Whoever came up with that line is a twit. Do up to 10 years for possession but get out on parole in two. If your sentenced to 10 years you do 10 years. What is the problem? Oh but if it is your first offense you might only get probation.

Wake up people. It is not the firearms that are killing, it is the dumb ass people that are using them.
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Swelling the prison population is not economically viable.
Edited on Sat Aug-08-09 12:13 PM by sharesunited
Witness California, where a mass release is under way because of budget constraints.

The focus must be on choking off the source of the harm, which is the guns and ammo.

Your so-called "right" to a gun can co-exist with society's legitimate efforts to disarm. At least for awhile, until the political incorrectness and zero tolerance take hold.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. Wow.
"Your so-called "right" to a gun can co-exist with society's legitimate efforts to disarm. At least for awhile, until the political incorrectness and zero tolerance take hold."


Apparently the Fascists aren't all on the Right. With folks like you along, remind me why we need the Republicans as a boogy-man?

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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. I'm a fascist because you love a gun? Sorry, I think you've bought into some paranoic mind bending.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. No.
You are a facist because you want to dictate what law respecting, non-criminal people may do, instead of allowing them free will.

Or maybe you're just a garden variety Stalinist. I can't tell from here.

Good day to you, sir or madam.
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Don't you run away from this. Tell me why you think a gun with ammo is a right.
With whom are you preparing to do battle, and what cost must society pay for your readiness to so engage?
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Because it's a right, and sometimes bad people can't be put off by positive thinking
The people described in these threads, AKA the teabaggers, won't be waiting around for you to
reeducate them. Some of them *do* mean harm and have advocated rebellion openly:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


These types won't be put off by nonviolent civil disobedience
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. Not running away.
Some of us actually have lives and need to sleep occasionally.

Here is why I need a gun:

The Police/Government, by virtue of their manpower, equipment, training and legal precedent CAN NOT protect me if a criminal decides to make me their victim. I am responsible for my own well-being. Unless you are offering to ensure my physical security at all times, all your bluster and lies are meaningless noise. When you then threaten to deny me effective means of defending myself, you become a threat to my physical safety. Despite our most recent Supreme Court nominee's mumbled obfuscations, self defense is a RIGHT. I dare say it is a duty and obligation. It is written into our genetic code. I can think of no species that does not have some natural, reflexive effort to defend itself when attacked.

I am not sure at this moment how to make this any clearer. It's been explained to you ad nauseum. I'll keep thinking and trying, but right now, I need to get brunch going.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. now you tell me

The Police/Government, by virtue of their manpower, equipment, training and legal precedent CAN NOT protect me if a criminal decides to make me their victim.

How could the state possibly prohibit you from digging a moat around your property and stocking it with crocodiles or filling it with acid?

After all, the state does not guarantee your safety from intruders, so you gotta do it yourself. Better to head them off at the pass than hope to be awake and clutching your implement when they try to steal your stereo.


I dare say it is a duty and obligation. It is written into our genetic code. I can think of no species that does not have some natural, reflexive effort to defend itself when attacked.

Ditto sex, but of course. So obviously, rape is a right.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #29
39. O.K., did you run away now? n/t
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. Yes, there were bullets whizzing past my head.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
36. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
2. since when do criminals follow the law?
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
41. since never

fucking DUH.

Obviously, the guns they have were born illegal. Nobody who can actually be expected to follow the law ever owned those guns. Those guns never made their way from the hands of somebody who can be expected to follow the law to the hands of criminals.

Oh, and if they did, there ain't a damned thing we can do about it.

Is that what you were saying?
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divideandconquer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
4. Doesn't Gary Indiana have a even worse homicide rate than Chicago?
Guess Chicago would even be worse with Indiana's gun laws.
<http://blog.nola.com/times-picayune/2007/06/2006_murder... >
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
16. 500 school age children in chicago were shot last school year...
those were the number officially reported. 37 died from gunshot wounds. most of the school age children in chicago know of someone who has been shot or shot at,experience shootings on their way to school,and hear gunshots in their neighborhood at night.

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Indy Lurker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. That's what happens when you live in criminal infested area



http://www.criminalsearches.com/neighborhood/watch.aspx...





FYI Drug convictions show up as TRAFFIC / OTHER in Illinois.




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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. That's what happens when you live in criminal infested area"

So fuck you, Jack. Tell your parents to talk white and get a job.

Have I got it right?
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Accusations of racism?
Wow. How unusual of you... oh, wait...
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. maybe you can get Indy Lurker

to tell us what the point of the post was.

I like to think posts have points.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. "I like to think posts have points."
Considering the overwhelming majority of your posts, that is a very odd statement to make.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. I work with the material I'm handed

If Indy Lurker's post didn't have a point, what do you expect of me???

:rofl:
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Indy Lurker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #24
32. point



"Imagine how much worse this neighborhood would be if handgun guns weren't illegal."

That was the point.

Handguns are already illegal in this neighborhood.

The criminals living there are even prevented by law from touching a handgun, long gun, or a single bullet.

The point is also that it's the criminals that make it a dangerous place to live, not the guns.

I also don't understand your racist comments.

Why are you bringing race into this?
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. no point

The point is also that it's the criminals that make it a dangerous place to live, not the guns.

Nope. Criminals without guns really aren't a humongous problem.

I also don't understand your racist comments.

Me, I don't understand why you'd compose a post only to get it deleted.

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
18. "The boy was a bystander and did not know either of the drivers"

Well, at least this isn't just one of those gang- and drug-related firearm homicides ... where the murderer just happens to kill someone not related to gangs or drugs. We all know about them -- gangs killing somebody? Nothing to worry about. It's just those people doing bad things with guns. Bad people will always have guns. Nothing can be done about it.

Same story here though. Too bad, so sad, another sacrifice you have to make for your freedumb. A kid's life. Them's the breaks.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/675063

Shot 9 times and survived, victim's trauma never ends
RICHARD LAUTENS/TORONTO STAR
Leonard Bell, 48, says he is still haunted by the 2004 drive-by shooting. The Toronto contractor was mistaken for someone else when gang members opened fire. This week the shooters were sentenced to life in prison. (July 30, 2009)

Leonard Bell was in a car when the Galloway Boys opened fire. He had to endure the 'stigma' of being tied to gang violence

"You people are always killing each other."

Leonard Bell could not believe what he had just heard.

The person making the comment to him was a physician at a Scarborough hospital where Bell had gone to discuss surgery related to the nine gunshot wounds he had received in a drive-by shooting.

"I was too angry to respond, so I got up and walked out," Bell said in an interview this week. "In the back of my mind, I'm thinking, 'You racist fool.'"

... Charlton, who had stopped for a red light on Neilson Rd. at Finch Ave. E., tried to flee when gunmen sprayed his Neon with bullets. But he collapsed and died on the median. Bell, who managed to pull the emergency brake after the car rolled into the intersection, was taken to hospital where he underwent surgery.


I could name you a half-dozen other well-known cases in Canada where the victim of a firearm homicide was a bystander (two kids, off the top of my head) or someone mistaken for someone else. Or just a random victim of neighbourhood intimidation tactics.

You'd have to work very hard to persuade me that such incidents are not common in the US. Hell, kids shot through windows and walls of their buildings and killed in their beds are easy to find.

But there is NOTHING CAN BE DONE ABOUT IT.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
25. K&R Obviously Chicago needs to do more that just banning handguns. (N/T)..
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libguy9560 Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:49 AM
Response to Original message
43. Oh, this is great
The good ol' 2nd amendment at work here.
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ManiacJoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Care to explain your logic?
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