This, folks, is why I own guns.

[arbusto_baboso]

The right wing domestic terrorists are why I arm myself. I have no fantasy that I'm really going to be able to protect myself from random crime. Nor do I delude myself that if America's government became totalitarian, that a few hunting rifles and semi-auto handguns would be able to resist Apache helicopters and M1A1s (and with Dubya out of office, I'm a lot less worried on that score, anyway).

I don't even maintain that my weapons would have helped me in the last two incidents, which occured in a church and a museum, respectively. (After all, unlike the righties, I don't scoff at law and attempt to be as law-abiding as possible, so would never carry weapons in such places, especially here in California.)

But it ain't gonna stop here. This is just the start of things. More and more incidents are going to occur, and the wingnuts are going to get bolder and bolder in their attacks. How long do you honestly think it will be before some disgusted white supremacist, anti-abortion, birther, anti-semite decides to try to shoot up a welfare office, or adult bookstore, or even a REGULAR bookstore (since it's well-known that only commie pinko f*gs read books that aren't from Paladin Press...)? This is just the start of something ugly, that will only get uglier. We need to be able to protect ourselves if law enforcement cannot or will not.

[konnichi wa]

1. When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

But that I have the Constitutional right is in itself a perfectly good reason for me.

[notesdev]

14. How's that old saying go?

Something like "I carry a gun, because I can't carry a cop"

[Statistical]

31. Or..

I carry a gun because a cop won't fit in my holster.

I carry a gun because carrying a cop gets tiring.

:)

[Jennicut]

67. LOL. My best friend's husband is a state trooper. I wish I could have him

be with me at all times. Not a go.
But I am too afraid to handle a gun, I am so clumsy I would probably shoot myself.

[SteveM]

143. Learning to handle firearms well helps clear up fears and clumsiness! (nt)

[Sensible321]

72. Supreme Court Nominee Sotomayor Disagrees ...

From CBS News:

In a 2004 criminal case, U.S. v. Sanchez-Villar, a three-judge panel that included Sotomayor wrote that "the right to possess a gun is clearly not a fundamental right."

Another case involved a fellow named James Maloney who was arrested in Port Washington, N.Y. for possessing a nunchaku (nun-chucks) -- typically sticks connected by rope or chain -- in his home. ... A three-judge panel including Sotomayor unanimously rejected his claim in January 2009, ruling that the Second Amendment "imposes a limitation on only federal, not state, legislative efforts." All members of the panel agreed with this sentiment, but because the opinion was unsigned, it's not clear who wrote it.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/05/27/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry5044428.shtml

Essentially, by this logic, we cannot even have a baseball bat *in our homes* to protect ourselves; just call 911, put your head between your legs, and wait.

[tomp]

100. but....she's an hispanic female!!!!!! nt

[konnichi wa]

103. Marvelous. No big surprise although I didn't know - I have been extremely UNimpressed by her from

the git-go. I know why she was picked and I understand the political calculation but I hate to think she's the best Hispanic female that could be found.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

105. Fortunately the Heller case settled the matter.

[TornadoTN]

2. Right there with you. I hesitate to think about what they want to do next.

Being involved in Democratic politics in a strong red area of the nation concerns me now. I fear not for myself, because I'm standing for what I believe in, but I fear for my family and my friends. We had a meeting the other night after the Tiller assassination and being in the backyard of the Knoxville Church Shootings (the guy was targeting liberals), and many of us expressed the same concern that we could be targeted by the right-wing crazies here just for Democrats. Some of the people in the party here aren't even liberal - more yellow-dog than anything else.

So I'm testing for my concealed carry soon. I hate that I have to feel this way but I won't allow my friends and co-workers to be targeted because of their involvement in government - something EVERY American should cherish and treasure.

[WeDidIt]

3. Yep, everything is online

If a rightwingnut doesn't like what you post on DU, they'll figure out who you are and take you out.

They've proven they are nothing but violent terrorists.

[sandnsea]

4. Pure Insanity

This is the same kind of rhetoric that fuels the violence on the right.

[arbusto_baboso]

11. You actually equate my post with right-wing hate-rhetoric? REALLY?

Maybe you read something in my post that I missed, because I don't recall issuing any fatwas. I also explicitly mentioned self-protection, and NOT aggressive actions.

If you see no difference, then I'm afraid you'll just be an easy target for them. I fear for you.

[sandnsea]

15. More guns, more killing, more violence

The real culture of death is the damn gun culture. Own a gun, protect yourself, good for you. But stfu about it and quit feeding this psychotic paranoia that the country is in so much turmoil everybody has to buy more guns.

[arbusto_baboso]

16. SIGH. I didn't start any violence, nor will I incite any.

But I'm damn sure also not going to be a victim of it.

If you think that's "furthering the death culture" you're entitled to your (utterly wrong) opinion.

[sandnsea]

24. Your post fuels it

Every time you rant about needing a gun to kill people, you're fueling the belief that guns solve problems.

[Yukari Yakumo]

30. So you rather have another corpse than allow someone to defend themselves? {nt}

[sybylla]

77. Or they believe in don't ask/don't tell or abstinence only when it comes to guns.

Ignorance doesn't equal innocence nor does it protect it.

[sybylla]

78. ***dup*** nt.

[RaleighNCDUer]

88. It is not the ownership of the guns - it's the boasting about it. nt

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

106. Boasting where on earth did you get that?

[Name removed]

35. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TornadoTN]

43. Then the Government needs to start cracking down on the right-wing terrorists

We need to hear from Obama and his administration on the subject. Convince us that they are taking steps to crack down on this lunacy and to prevent these groups from forming to carry out these despicable acts.

No, instead they "apologize" and retract the DHS report outlining right-wing terrorist groups, a report that outlined and predicted the events that we are seeing today.


As a proud liberal, I'll value my second amendment right and own a firearm in case this insanity comes home.

[sandnsea]

45. There you go, that's the problem

Not the need for more damn guns. As long as you operate under the delusion the guns are the solution, you'll never demand the real solutions are enacted.

[TornadoTN]

50. Whoah - how am I not demanding real solutions be enacted?

In fact, I mentioned just a couple general points on how real solutions could be implemented. Crack down on these groups in any way possible. Bust them up and ensure that they cannot legally purchase a firearm due to their involvement in white supremacy/hate groups. Send some to prison. Send a clear message that this type of behavior will not be condoned within our borders - just like the Europeans have done.


But what we've seen over the past 10 years or so is our government inaction to deal with the problem effectively. Hell, we had 8 years of a Bush administration that was practically their wet dream. Many years of a right-wing media disguised as "Fair and Balanced" and many more of right-wing radio that plays to their base feelings and gives them a wink and a nod when they casually mention violent acts against the government or liberals.


Honestly, I understand your position and I agree with gun control measures that most GOP'ers would throw a fit about. But I also value my right to protect myself from threats and unstable mental midgets like the right wing is breeding. Do I want to use that firearm? No. Do I think it will solve all of lifes problems? Certainly not. But perhaps it will give the person that might be targeting me or my family because we are liberal pause and make them rethink that decision. What good would it be for him and his cause to be killed trying to kill a no, good, dirty liberal?

[sandnsea]

60. That was a generic "you", not a personal you

I have no problem with people owning a gun. I have a huge problem with these constant rants about how wonderful it is to own guns and shoot the scary people and they're posted almost every day.

[patriotvoice]

52. A gun in my hand doesn't solve problems, it prevents problems.

The person who holds the tool decides how that tool is used. The poster never "ranted" about needing a gun "to kill people". You inserted the verb "to kill". The poster described his use as "to protect". He decides to use a tool for defense that others decide to use for offense -- that alone doesn't create a violent society or lead to more deaths. The root of violence is economic, societal, and educational. Guns are just another way of expressing the violence people want to exact to get what they want. Take away all the guns, and people'll use swords, hammers, stones.

[patriotproud]

65. people will use swords, hammers, stones

Baloney.

In many, if not most cases where a gun is used in anger (e.g. domestic violence) if a gun hadn't been readily available the worst that would happen is a black eye or a bloody nose.

I believe you trust your ability to control your use of a gun when angry, but I don't trust your ability to do so.

[patriotvoice]

74. The State of North Carolina trusts me, as does the United States government.

So what you think doesn't particularly matter, does it?

At any rate, your own argument proves my point: people will use violence to meter out their anger. A gun is a convenient tool for that, when one is already poised at the brink of loss of self control. So is a book. So is a fist. Punching your spouse in the face is no worse than shooting in the long-term. Once one has the gumption to punch, one begins a slippery slide to higher forms of control and aggression.

[Hissyspit]

76. The state of North Carolina??

Speaking as someone who has lived in North Carolina since the late 70s, that's hardly hefty logical support for your argument. :)

[patriotproud]

84. What I think

What I think doesn't matter? I vote, so it may matter. Well, at least I know it matters as much as what you think. As for the State of NC - I have difficulty holding the opinion of Jesse Helms home town in any regard.

[patriotvoice]

120. How you vote has nothing to do with what you think about me, which was your line of argument.

But clearly your argument devolved further, as you resort to puerile attacks on my state and my person based on where some old white dude was born, raised, and lives.

[SteveM]

144. After all, is there ANY state which passes the political virgin test? (nt)

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

122. Unless you get a vote on the Supreme Court it doesn't matter.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

121. Fortunately your trust has nothing to do with his Right.

[rl6214]

132. In Great Britain since they have removed all guns

from society, there is a HUGE increase in knifings. They are now banning knives and swords so your assertion is wrong.

[madeline_con]

54. Actually, posts like yours fuel extremism.

From the DHS report:

Gun-related violence: “Heightened interest in legislation for tighter firearms...may be invigorating rightwing extremist activity, specifically the white supremacist and militia movements.”

[sandnsea]

85. Oh my god - don't pass laws and scare the domestic terrorists!!!

What kind of insane logic is that?

[AtheistCrusader]

119. We're knee deep in laws.

How about some friggin ENFORCEMENT huh?

And stop building up 'assault weapons' into these mythological all-powerful killing machines. No wonder every thug on the street wants a knock-off AK-47 style semi-auto. They've been built up as these legendary be-all end-all weapons of mass destruction.

It's a semi-auto rifle, with a detachable magazine, a short overall length for manouverability. That's it. It's just a damn gun. Stop pretending they are the second coming of Mars, God of War.

[proteus_lives]

89. Guns do solve problems, that's the point.

If someone is trying to kill/rape/rob/murder you for your beliefs. Guess what? It's a problem.

[gorfle]

128. A gun solved the problem of von Brunn.

A gun sure solved the problem of von Brunn's rapage, didn't it?

[MicaelS]

32. "psychotic paranoia?"

Maybe if the truly predatory or horrific criminals were quickly and publicly executed, instead of taking years and years to do so, people wouldn't feel so scared, and clamor to own guns. Too many progressives act like murders on death row are the real victims and fight tool and nail to "free" them. Murderers like Von Brunn, assuming he survives his wounds, along with Scott Roeder and Abdul Hakim Mujahid Muhammad should get one quick trial, one appeal and then get a pistol bullet in the back of head in front of their local courthouse. Broadcast it on live TV. The whole thing should be over in no more than 3 months, tops.

[sandnsea]

44. Wow. This could win a psycho post award n/t

[MicaelS]

47. Coming from you that's a compliment n/t

[konnichi wa]

108. Projection. Get professional help.

Seriesly.

[one-eyed fat man]

140. Abdul Hakim Mujahid Muhammad

Abdulhakim Muhammad was arrested in Knoxville on Feb. 21, 2004 with a sawed-off shotgun. Had the US Attorney there done his damn job Carlos Bledsoe would still be not quite a fifth of the way through his sentence for violating the National Firearms Act of 1934.

The police report indicates Muhammad was charged with both weapon and drug offenses but the weapon's charge was dismissed June 21, 2004, court records show.

John Gill, special counsel to Knox County District Attorney General Randy Nichols, said Wednesday he couldn't make any public statements about Bledsoe's case or explain why the charge was dismissed.

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2009/jun/04/ark-suspect-ar...

Another example of "catch and release" enforcement. Don't you think you deserve better from your elected officials than to let them deflect questions about their malfeasance by calling for even more laws crooks won't obey and, more pointedly, prosecutors won't prosecute?

Second point, no matter how many times you say it or some body puts it in the paper, an SKS was not and never was an "assault weapon" as defined by the expired Federal Ban. And since he was running around Yemen on a fake Somali passport, already had a documented history of possessing illegal weapons, it is not much of a stretch to figure he had contacts who could fix him up with all manner of illegal weaponry. The only law that might have prevented him from getting his hands on a gun is the Law of Gravity! And only then if the rope was short enough to keep his feet from touching the ground.

[BreweryYardRat]

102. I'm in favor of the death penalty, but your suggestion would only work...

...in cases where the evidence (preferably video, ballistics, or multiple eyewitnesses who haven't communicated with each other) is OVERWHELMING. Von Brunn qualifies. Scott Roeder qualifies. That guy who raped and murdered a couple of kids and videotaped it a while back qualifies. I forget exactly what Abdul H. M. Muhammad did, so I can't say for certain that he qualifies, but if he was the DC sniper (which is where I think I've heard the name), he probably qualifies. I'd need to see the evidence to be sure.

Problem is, some people on death row have been convicted on shaky or minimal evidence. Expediting the process in a case like that could lead to an innocent person getting executed.

To make an expedited death penalty feasible, we'd need a law requiring a substantially higher amount of evidence, and I'm not sure how the legal process of that would work.

Don't get me wrong, I'm also in favor of swiftly getting rid of the real bastards, but we'd have to make sure innocent people wouldn't be getting the chop as well.

[one-eyed fat man]

139. the problem I have with the death penalty is the execution.

if we simply sentence a killer to life without parole we will have to feed and house him until he dies of natural causes.

As it is now, even in the face of overwhelming forensic and eyewitness evidence, if Evil Incarnate is sentenced to death, we will have to support him and three platoons of attorneys trying to get him off until he dies of natural causes.

Surely all those lawyers on welfare would be cheaper.

[Euromutt]

141. Was that an inadvertent pun? (n/t)

[one-eyed fat man]

147. It was deliberate; double entendre n/t

[Sensible321]

112. You Might Want To Research "The Innocence Project"

Believe it or not, our criminal justice system often convicts innocent people. The results of DNA tests have *proven* many people on death row were innocent. The lust for blood and vengeance at the hands of the state via the 'death penalty' will not negate anyone's desire to own a firearm. It's not even a deterrent to murder; how many killers have said, "Gosh, I knew I'd get caught, but thought since I'll only spend 20 years in a cage, I went ahead and killed so-and-so."

Keep in mind, criminals don't obey gun laws so the only people disarmed by them are the 'good law-abiding folks'. This doesn't mean we go hog-wild in the other direction and legalize M-16s and grenade-launchers, but nor should we kid ourselves that giving up our existing rights will make us safer.

[gorfle]

131. Precisely

I used to be pro-death penalty, but after seeing so many innocent people freed thanks to DNA evidence, I can no longer see my way to it.

However, for people for which there is no doubtwho committed the crime, like this von Brunn fellow of recent events, I'd be willing to make an exception. Just take them out back and shoot them.

[sellitman]

37. I agree

Guns are not the answer, they are part of the problem.

[aikoaiko]

92. STFU about it?

Most gun rights people welcome the day that they don't have to do verbal battle against those who try to reduce people rights to, as you say, "Own a gun, protect yourself".

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

46. If you're looking for a logical conversation about guns, end this sub-thread now

Been there. Done that. My head still hurts.

[arbusto_baboso]

12. You actually equate my post with right-wing hate-rhetoric? REALLY?

Maybe you read something in my post that I missed, because I don't recall issuing any fatwas. I also explicitly mentioned self-protection, and NOT aggressive actions.

If you see no difference, then I'm afraid you'll just be an easy target for them. I fear for you.

[gratuitous]

17. Not sure about insanity

But "false sense of security" easily suggested itself to me. The original post freely admits that carrying a gun is no solution, probably won't work, but carries a gun anyway because . . . Well, I couldn't quite figure that out. There's probably a psychological need being met here, since there are no practical needs being met.

[arbusto_baboso]

33. But it COULD work.

Like any other precautionary measure, nothing is 100%.

And what are you implying about "other psychological needs" being met? Hmmmmm? Don't be an asshole; just say it.

[Statistical]

36. Seatbelts don't save every life.

Smoke detectors fail.
Sometimes paramedics arrive too late.

However you would dismiss someone as a fool if they suggested since the success rate of these technologies are not 100% they are useless.

Firearms are used defensively 2.5 million times per year. 90% of the time no shots are fired.
Citizens w/ firearms have killed more criminals than the Police have.

[RaleighNCDUer]

90. And more citizens have been killed by their own, or a familty member's, firearm

than have been killed by criminals.

The vastly overwhelming number of 'defensive uses' are bullshit anecdotes.

They idiot who shot the trick or treater through his door would be counted as a 'defensive use' if he hadn't actually SHOT the trick or treater, and found out the kid was confused, not dangerous.

[rl6214]

133. The vastly overwhelming number of

citizens have been killed by their own, or a familty member's, firearm

are bullshit anecdotes.


cite your sources

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

110. I missed where the poster said they carried a firearm.

[gratuitous]

111. Aw, y'all are just soooo cute!

Like puppies. Incontinent yappy little puppies chewing on a $500 Coach handbag.

So, it's enough to own the gun but not carry it around? I suppose the next violent nutbag is supposed to drop a postcard in the mail so we'll all know to have our shootin' arns cleaned, loaded and at the ready? Otherwise, I'm back to the quandary of what need is being met by possessing the gun, since practicality is ruled out.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

113. I likely won't ever need my guns, I don't need my golf clubs either.

However if I want to go golfing I would be nice to have them. If I want to go shooting, hunting or in the very rare case that my life is in danger then it would be nice to have a firearm. I personally haven't felt the need to get a concealed carry permit, however without knowing another man's or woman's circumstance I wouldn't presume to know if they need one. Fortunately for me and about 80 million other gun owners the framers didn't feel that NEED was a factor when they wrote the Constitution.

David

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

135. I appreciate the compliment.

[hiphopnation]

80. +1

[konnichi wa]

104. How about I stay out of your bedroom and you stay out of my gun room?

In other words, MYOFB

[aikoaiko]

5. Ultimately, the 2nd A. exists to ensure access toarms to protect yourself and others from oppression

Its really that simple.

[backtoblue]

6. right there with ya..

Mine is securely locked in a gun cabinet (have a child) and if need be, it will serve it's purpose of protecting my son, my home, my neighbors, myself.

[katandmoon]

7. Just like that poor armed guard was able to protect himself, huh?

[TornadoTN]

8. Just like the other armed guards who were able to stop the madness

Not saying I'm advocating no gun control - there definately needs to be some control - but I'm not going to take this declaration of open season on liberals and other innocent people lightly.

[MindPilot]

10. No, that "poor armed guard" protected everyone else.

He gave his life to save who knows how many others. If the guards had not been armed--and apparently well-trained--there would have been a lot more bloodshed.

[havocmom]

22. +1

:applause:

[Statistical]

39. Exactly

Does anyone think this guy was going to stop with 1 victim.

Really?

He was going to keep going until he ran out of ammo, was cornered, or was put down.

The other armed guards responded quickly.
Had they been the typical mall rent-a-cops that are unarmed how many people would have died yesterday.

[jeepnstein]

130. By one account...

the guard actually held the door open for the shooter. He didn't see what was coming in time to do anything. That's what happens sometimes when you're the first to make contact with a scum bag bent on killing someone.

Being armed is not guarantee of a good outcome.

[Rebubula]

19. Really...

...what an ignorant statement. If there had been no guards with guns, this asshole would have killed alot more people.

But, what is a few deaths if you can maintain your moral superiority on a subject??

[leftynyc]

21. I shudder to think what would

have happened if the security guards were not armed. Yes, one guard died and I consider him a hero for guarding a place that has more threats against it than any other in D.C. But what would have happened if the other guards were not armed? Entire classes of kids go to that museum this time of year. It would have been much worse if that piece of racist shit didn't get a bullet in his head.

[backscatter712]

27. Hey, von Brunn got some holes in him...

That guard died protecting others. Of course, a gun isn't a guarantee, but it gives you options...

[zipplewrath]

9. The fire department

I'm always reminded of a sign I saw once. It said:

"When tempted to fight fire with fire, it's important to remember the fire department usually uses water".

A fire chief I know said that the fire fighters association has practically eliminated fire fighting as it used to be. They've advocated so heavily, for so long, fire resistant building codes, and fire prevention ones as well, that the vast majority of calls they go on are medical in nature. He actually has a hard time getting his new ones "real" experience in fighting "serious" fires. He jokingly refers to many of the new ones as "fire extinguisher operators" because that's about all they really have experience doing, car fires, small brush fires, or small building fires that are practically out by the time they get there anyway.

I wish I could figure out how we do the same thing with ignorance, bigotry, and hatred in general.

[arbusto_baboso]

13. I wish I could figure out a way, too.

It really pains me that this situation even exists. The thing is, while I believe in the causes I espouse, I'm not ready to die for them just because some fanatical loser has decided that I should.

[one-eyed fat man]

142. Our volunteer fire department has a perfect record

They have never missed a fire and never saved a building. They almost always got there in time to save the foundation.The sheriff's department doesn't have a deputy on the road after midnight. If you don't live within the corporate limits of a town or city you may have to wait for the state police to respond. Figure that one out considering the are just under a thousand troopers, total, on the Commonwealth of Kentucky's payroll.

Self-reliance is not an abstract concept to rural families.

[leftynyc]

18. I've said for a while

that anybody who lived through the recent chimp administration and didn't consider arming themselves was foolish.

[DonP]

28. Visit the "Gungeon" and espousing your POV will label you a "Right Wing NRA Stooge"

We are "blessed" with a lot of folks that consider anyone who owns or advocates owning a firearm an obvious "stooge using NRA Right Wing talking points". Several of them are upthread already.

During the 8 years of Bush they seemed to want the government to have control of all the guns and demanded a national registration. They never mentioned why they trusted Bush to know where every gun in the country was.

Governments/administrations eventually change, sometimes for better, but sometimes for the worse.

If you rely on the government for all your protection you are going to be disappointed (and if that's all that happens you're very lucky) somewhere along the line.

The folks at Algiers Point in New Orleans, after Katrina are a good example of what happens when you dial 911 and nobody answers. A gay couple with a couple of of shotguns and some neighbors cooperating and the neighborhood didn't suffer from the looting or other post storm issues. Nobody shot, but some crime deterred.

[leftynyc]

51. You are speaking of people

(yes, a good number on this site) who don't understand that the second amendment is just like the other 9 in the bill of rights. It was written to protect us from the government. I don't even get into it with people here - anyone who thinks we can get rid of guns have no grasp of reality. And those who think we don't have a right to arm ourselves doesn't believe in the constitution.

[ecstatic]

20. Would they shoot up the welfare office before or after

collecting their check? :shrug:

So far everything seems OK around here (although it could be the calm before the storm).

[Ganja Ninja]

23. Yup. I don't carry but I keep them around in case I might have the need some day.

These people are nuts and you never know what's coming next.

[G_j]

25. I think you may a bit paranoid

there is no way to say things will get uglier and worse. This guy was 88 yrs old, it seems it was only a matter of time for someone like him, or the guy who murdered the doctor. These guys cast their fates long ago.

[Blue_Tires]

26. k+r

[backscatter712]

29. Same here.

Right wing madness is why I keep my zombie gun handy...

[EnviroBat]

42. Hehehehe. I've got one of those bad boys sitting in my closet right now.

I don't recommend firing it without the shoulder stock in place. It hammered my wrist pretty bad until I got used to relaxing the grip a bit. Hard to miss anything with a Mossberg 500.

[proteus_lives]

95. Excellent!

My dad has gotten older and he recently put stocks on his shotguns.


Remember, the semi-auto like a AR-15 is the supreme zombie killer. Have you ever read Max Brooks' Zombie Survival Guide? It's full of helpful anti-zombie weaponry tips.

[bridgit]

34. Correct

[tularetom]

38. I own guns because I like to fire them

And because they are the best way to deal with things like snakes coyotes gophers and other pests that like to come around here and eat chickens or dig holes in our pasture.

I also own them because I am a collector of antique firearms.

[doodadem]

68. Are you in Tulare County, Tom?

We're just over the line in Fresno, in the mountains.


We also own a couple of long guns for protection. We try to have our own little wildlife sanctuary here on the ranch, and don't allow hunting, but you do get critters after the chickens, coyotes carrying off the barn cats (and the miniature dachshund once), and mountain lions eating sheep and calves on neighboring farms.

Problem is, you can't protect yourself from other people. We have been physically assaulted on our own property, had a lot of property destroyed, by our idiot neighbors in a years-long battle now. They show up drunk, in our front yard, saying they are going to cave my husband's head in with their shovels. He says, leave now or I'm going to fire a warning shot over your heads. Who gets in trouble with the cops when we call them? Yeah, the husband, when the cops show up 45 mintutes later.

There is responsible gun ownership. Its well and good to sit back and slam it, if you've never had to actually fight for your life. I had a guy attack me while I was out running a number of years ago. I managed to fight him off, and ultimately outrun him, to testify against him in court. He was carrying a large butcher knife, and he was charged with attempted kidnapping, attempted rape, and attempted murder. Turned out, he had been attacking other women in the neighborhood. If I'd had a gun, would I have blown him away while he was trying to drag me off into the bushes? In a heartbeat.

[tularetom]

94. Mariposa actually, at about 1500 to 1800 feet

I haven't had sheep here for at least ten years, but we did have a couple of lambs disappear before then. We found one and the game warden said a lion had gotten it. What we do have a lot of is rattlesnakes and Mrs. tom is scared shitless of them. I was bitten by one many years ago so I'm not too fond of them myself.

And I've had a lot of problems with brain dead morans on ATV's tearing up my creek bank and causing the pasture to flood.

We only have one neighbor, she is 72 years old and trying to keep up 120 acres by herself. And I hope she can. She's a retired attorney so she doesn't depend on the land for a living, which is good because it's not a large enough piece to be profitable at this elevation.

I never think of having guns for protection, I use them for a lot of other reasons, but I wouldn't hesitate to use one on a burglar or home invader if needed.

[patriotproud]

69. dealing with varmits

The best way to deal with a snake is with a shovel or hoe, not a gun. Maybe not as much fun. Also you should be aware that killing snakes is very bad karma.

[bvar22]

97. And would you be willing ...

..to take on a rabid skunk (possum, coon, coyote) with a "shovel or hoe"?
I don't.
I shoot them.
I use the shovel after they are stone dead.

Venomous snakes are dispatched with a shovel if they are in the immediate home/yard/garden area.
Karma can kiss my ass when it comes to the potential for harm to my family, pets, or stock.

Non-venomous snakes are left alone, with the exception of large Chicken Snakes which are removed from the chicken house and relocated (on a fairly regular basis). I would keep the Chicken Snakes around because they eat rodents, Copperheads, and Rattlers, but they also eat eggs and upset the chickens.

Guns are a tool, and a fact of life around here (Ouachita Mountains, West Central Arkansas).
We generally don't play with the guns, but during the election and immediately afterward, we held several "Target Practices" around Supper Time. We had an Obama campaign sign on our gate, and wanted anyone who lived in our area to KNOW we were armed....just neighborly respect.

[tularetom]

99. So I've heard

But I've had personal negative encounters with them. In 1962 a couple of months after I was discharged from the Army and one week before the day I was supposed to get married, I was working on a road crew. cleaning out culverts and one bit me. I had enough adrenalin going for me to decapitate him with my shovel but I was a sick puppy for about two weeks and wound up postponing the wedding. Since then I don't really want to get close enough to one to use a shovel or hoe on it.

We have a blacktop apron by our garage. At night in the summer the snakes go onto the warm asphalt. They're still there the next morning when I go down to the road to get the paper. I've found them in the garage and once saw one go behind the dryer.

Some years I only see one or two of them. A couple years ago I killed 8 of them with a single shot .410. So far this year, none.

If it is indeed bad karma I'm in deep shit. Maybe I'm immune from being bitten once but I have no intention of finding out.

[doodadem]

101. We've relocated a number of Rattlers

Taking them back further on our property when they insisted on moving in with us. However, we have had to kill two: One that would not go peaceably, and kept trying to go for our little blind cat. The second one made the mistake of eating something big enough that he got stuck in our fence. I'm damn sure he was the one that had struck one of our mini-dachshunds the day before, and killed him. So no mercy for him. He was well over 5' too, and trying to strike at the other dogs, even stuck in the fence.

We've since had the dogs vaccinated for rattlers. It can make them sick though.

[konnichi wa]

114. Wow...I appreciate that! (vaccination for rattlesnakes) I had no idea they existed!

Our vet never mentioned it and obviously never thought to ask since I never heard of it. I may see about getting it for my lab who loves to play with snakes...I don't think he knows one kind from another. :scared:

[galledgoblin]

40. I'd perfer to see our old armories reopened

I don't feel like stocking my own.

[patriotvoice]

55. Yes, open up the armories...

and have requisite popular training in modern conventional firearm use and tactics.

See the Battle of Athens (1946) for a rationale:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMinn_County_War
http://www.constitution.org/mil/tn/batathen.htm

[spanone]

41. i. don't. own. guns.

[SOS]

48. "Only an armed people can be the real bulwark of popular liberty."

-V.I. Lenin

[Doctor_J]

57. How's that working for us now?

:eyes:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

123. Just fine.

[proteus_lives]

91. Always makes me laugh, someone like Lenin talking about liberty.

But the spirit of the quote is correct.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[symbolman]

53. I agree

Some years ago, when I was appearing on O'Reilly & Scarborough's shows the Freepers starting posting my personal info everywhere, and we got threats.. One declared that a "Black Ops" situation was in order..

I declared their intentions on the DU, along with my affirmation that I was trained to kill in the military, am armed and would protect my family at all costs, anyone who came into my house with the means and intention to harm my household would be carried out in a box.

I would ask that the FBI and the Justice Dept drain that swamp of pestilent Hate, investigate, and bring appropriate charges.

They've bred more than one criminal there, and it needs to end Now.

[TornadoTN]

59. Bravo and well said - I'm sorry you had to see it first hand

It's far past time for them to drain the right-wing swamps and other hate sites.

[Sebastian Doyle]

56. Your gun wouldn't have done any good in that situation.

As you would not have been able to wear one in the Holocaust museum.

[Gregorian]

58. It's interesting to compare the two sides and their reasons for wanting guns.

I'm saying that it's interesting to note why the freepers want guns.

And as an extension of the authoritarian mindset, the gun is a means of projecting their need to control and eliminate those who might control.

In a nutshell, they want guns to use against us.

The Civil War may not have been about slavery.

[walldude]

61. The reason you own a gun is to protect yourself from a crazed

right-winger? Yeah man, next thing you know they'll be going door to door shooting all perceived liberals.

Um.. there were 3 crazed right wing attacks this month. That makes your odds 100 million to one of being attacked by a crazed right winger. You have a better chance of winning the lottery.

[madmom]

71. I have often been told the odds of being called for jury duty was about the same as

hitting the lottery. I've been called to jury duty 3 times now, won the lottery none. Just saying...:shrug:

[Critters2]

62. I serve the most progressive church for miles around,

but, even after at least two shootings in liberal churches, I will not carry a gun. Never have. Never will. I don't believe violence solves anything. And I'm not afraid enough of death to kill someone else.

We don't change them by becoming them.

[create.peace]

83. ita! nt

[benEzra]

117. Out of curiousity, would you rather the Holocaust Museum guards been unarmed?

Personally, I like the idea of having some competent, vetted, and armed individuals around the church, particularly in light of recent events. The attempted New Life Church massacre (stopped by a parishioner with a CHL and a personally owned 9mm) comes to mind.

But I do agree that it is a matter of individual conscience, and not everyone believes in the use of potentially lethal force to stop an attack. So I certainly respect your choice on the issue.

[Terry in Austin]

63. I own guns because

I like being self-appointed cop, judge, jury and executioner. It makes me feel so... potent.

(Riiight...)

[Terry in Austin]

64. delete

dupe

[anonymous171]

66. Until hate radio is silenced this kind of thing will continue. nt

[Blue Belle]

70. I don't see were fueling/participating in the paranoia is going to help...

It would seem you are just making the NRA's argument and supporting the "Take up arms/militia/shoot first ask questions later" chaotic society. How does this make anyone safer?

[TheWraith]

73. Glenn Beck caused me to buy a rifle this year.

The odds on somebody going ape-shit near me are low, but I'm a prominant Democrat in a VERY Republican area--I'm not taking any chances.

[TornadoTN]

81. Same here. I'm in a red area

We had an Inauguration party this year and about 600-800 turned out for the festivities. This in spite of the fact that we had been bombarded with hate mail, death threats, KKK threats to the convention center, notes left at houses of prominent Democrats, etc.

We met about it and decided to continue on. But once we started getting letters at home threatening us with all manner of threats (and our families), many of us decided to purchase firearms, security systems, and several enrolled in concealed carry permit or self-defense classes.

The Police came to event in full force and made a strong showing, so everything went ok. But they never did follow-up or chase down the threats that so many people were getting. To this day, these people are still out there.

[hiphopnation]

75. yep

arm yourselves. that's the only answer

[CANDO]

79. Good luck finding ammo!

The wing nuts have emptied the store shelves of them.

[TornadoTN]

82. Yes they have. Prices are inflated beyond belief

I went to purchase a 50 round tray of .40cal range ammo and the prices had went from $12-$13 a box to $24 or more. I was lucky to find just the box that I ended up purchasing because they had no idea when they would get another shipment. 12 weeks or longer.

[create.peace]

86. awww.....sheesh how much ammo do you need?

well, good you had went then, who knows how much it will cost to have enough rounds to protect yourself....

[TornadoTN]

87. You really don't have a clue, do you?

No use in trying to explain it, since your mind is already made up about guns.

But I will anyway. I have enough for personal protection (no more than 100 rounds for various calibers), but I am taking a class through my local Sheriff's department in a couple weeks that requires I have 50 rounds for target shooting. RANGE ammo only - no special types or makeup.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

124. Enough.

[DonP]

129. I saw .45 LC for $47.95 a box of 50! A buck a frickin' round!

I don't think there is any such thing as cheap range ammo anymore. When anything does come in it gets marked up instantly.

When I can find any ammo it's way over the top $$$ wise.

I'm glad I started reloading a few years back. (I have to remember to point that out to my wife so she'll stop raggin me about buying a new set of dies.)

I have a good stock of primers and powder. I broke down and bought a couple of molds for my 45 ACP and Long Colt. There will never be a shortage of tire balancing weights.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

109. That's why many of us reload our own.

[proteus_lives]

93. Many good points.

:-)

[Fire1]

96. Since you're in CA. I see your point. CA has the most

hate groups of any state in the U.S. But these last two incidents indicate that 'shit' can jump off ANYWHERE!!:thumbsup:

[Euromutt]

127. California has more than 1/6 of the country's population

So it kind of figures it'd have more whackjobs than any other state, just because there are more people than any other state. Still, back in the day, the "Patriot movement" (as Dave Neiwert calls them for short) were no slouches in the Pacific Northwest either.

And I'll admit I'm nervous about them getting up to their old tricks now that the "ZOG" has retaken DC (after voluntarily relinquishing it for eight years, apparently).

[X_Digger]

98. Should be getting my CHL in about 6 months

Shit like this and our high profile in the neighborhood (my wife caucused for Obama, and was an alternate state delegate here in TX) and Dallas's high crime rate in general are what tipped me over from weekend tin can plinker to considering a CHL. I travel a lot for the telecom company I work for, into some of the most out of the way places in Texas back country to service network equipment.

After being mugged twice and having my truck broken into three times in two years, I figure it's time that I apply the preparedness I use with other things to my own protection.

[Taverner]

107. Agreed. This is why I would own one.

But I don't - I just don't want to

But I understand

[Baclava]

115. I just hope we can paint celtic crosses on our shields

The Next Holy War will be for oil and gold.

I blame the whole Jew/Christian/Muslim conspiracy.

We want the world and we want it now.

[depakid]

116. Living in irrational fear- and running out and arming yourselves

Pathetic.

[benEzra]

118. Shrug. I've had a carry license for around 15 years now.

I didn't jump through all the hoops necessary to get it out of fear. I respect your choice to remain unarmed, but those of us who choose differently usually don't fit the motivations you would like to ascribe to us.

Peace,

bE

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

125. Says the Australian who is scared of shark attacks.

[Merchant Marine]

126. So much

for the party of tolerance and understanding. You lash out against the unknown like a freeper.

[rl6214]

134. Says the guy who has to irrationally

degrade someone for there constitutional choices.

Pathetic.

[votingupstart]

146. haven't tried irrational fear yet - anything like the pathetically posting

on the internet about something when you have no idea what your talking about.

until you walk a mile in another mans shoes - quite bitch'n about how he walks.

[Xenotime]

136. How does somebody else tell.......

..you apart from a RW terrorist when you are both holding guns? I don't get it. I would think if the police showed up and you weren't holding the gun and the other person was it would be pretty obvious who to shoot.

[X_Digger]

137. You assume that two people would be standing.

By the time the police get there, either he's dead and you've put your gun away, or he's killed you and is the one with the gun.

[Merchant Marine]

138. Most gunfights

Only last a few seconds- it doesn't take long for one of the two parties to be out of the fight.

[SteveM]

145. Disarm yourself when it is safe, and before the cops arrive...

Most self-defense instructors say that if you are using a gun in self-defense (or in defense of others), and if the danger has passed, the citizen gun-owner should disarm him/her self before the police arrive so the problem you are speculating on does not manifest itself. Frankly, the vast majority of gun self-defense incidents do NOT involve shootings; the arrival of the police is usually well afterward in any case.