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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 07:16 PM
Original message
Texas to take up two gun bills this session.
Texas lawmakers want conceal and carry laws on state campuses

Two proposals are being heard on concealed weapons on college campuses in Texas this session.

Jacqueline Renee Smith

The first proposal would allow licensed gun holders to carry their weapons on campuses like the University of Texas at Austin. A second proposal would allow them to openly carry their firearms. These two proposals are predicted to be the most controversial gun-related proposals of the Texas legislators current session.


http://www.collegenews.com/index.php?/article/texas_law...
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alexandria Donating Member (175 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
1. Great news for Texas..
A further thing i would like to see is all people be thought to read..
I notice when those people shoot up a school or university,they cannot read the sign that say's this is a gun free zone.
I am sure if they could read the sign, everything would be better...
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Hangingon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. I think most people read. All my acquaintances do.
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alexandria Donating Member (175 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. All my acquaintances do.
I hope your acquaintances have a better sense of humour?
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
2. I believe CCW is more appropriate for college campuses. n/t
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #2
39. What?!?
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Mad_Cow_Disease Donating Member (88 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
3. I don't gree with the open carry.
I know in Texas you get in trouble if you're "outted" while CCWing, but enacting open carry laws is not the answer to this problem. It's also not the solution to any other problem CCW can solve. They should just amend CCW law to allow leniency for ccw slip-ups and printing. I guess I just don't see the advantages of Open Carry to go through the trouble of enacting legislation that specifically addresses it. ... but hey, more rights can't be all to bad if the laws are written responsibly! :)

And for the CCW on campus - it's about damn time.
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Yeah I was real leary of open carry also
As far as open carry to "solve" the pick-a-boo problem. I don't really buy into it. I think that is just a red herring. If you want to discuss the merits of open carry it needs to be done as a separate issue. As a separate issue I've done some research on it and warmed to the idea.

Many states do allow for open carry and it has not lead to any problems that I know of. The biggest problems I've read about have been wrongful arrest by police that did not know the law. I do still have a problem with blanket open carry. I'd rather see it licensed like CHLs are. If you get the training and show competent shooting skills then you should be allowed to carry - open or concealed it should be your choice.

I personally carry most of the time using a "fanny pack". It so blatantly screams "GUN" it might as well be open carry. I do this mostly for the convenience of it. I can quickly access my weapon if I should ever need to - the kind of pack I use is special made for concealed carry with a special holster in it and a quick pull tear away string. And I can also easily disarm without handling the firearm. This is particularly useful if, or when you ever get pulled over by the police. I also discovered the usefulness of this the first time I needed to "use" a public restroom while using the fanny pack. It is very easy and safe to simply hang the whole pack on the coat hanger in the stall and never have to handle the weapon.

Anyhow, I rambled on long enough. If you are interested in researching open carry you may wish to try the OpenCarry dot org and (I think) Virgina carry dot something.

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tburnsten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Texas also has lots of open country
And OC is perfect for that, out in the country where a large framed revolver you could never hope to carry comfortably around town concealed is the perfect companion.


I also think that OC free is better than trying to allow leniency to CC, since there will always be some douchebag who feels they were physically threatened because they happened to spot someone briefly exposing their weapon. I think the route to go would be OC free, CC legal on campus but no OC on campus. I know to some that might sound like preferential treatment, but unlike the retarded argument that CC on campus would somehow be "distracting" or create a "threatening learning environment", which is fucking stupid, I think that OC in class actually would be kind of an issue.
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AlinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. I don't know what to do about schools, but if the 2nd amendment says you can have guns,
why the hell do we have to go around hiding them? Carry them out in the open. You have a right to own one, and a right to carry it where you want to carry it. You can walk around with a rifle in a field hunting game but can't walk around anyplace else is limiting your 2nd amendment rights.
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tburnsten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Social stigma is my biggest concern
You know, like the plan of the Clinton administration to make being a gun owner at least as stigmatized a class as, say, drug addicts, sex offenders, smokers, you get the idea. Discourage a behavior by encouraging people to disparage others for owning guns. Tell me you don't see that attitude coming out of the woodwork here. I think it is pretty shameful the way some of the other posters here speak about gun owners.


My family for the most part is very anti-gun, and it just kills them that I own any at all. I think my grandparents have a pellet gun maybe. I am not sure if they know I carry, but I do know how much shit is talked about me for any reason and no reason at all when I am not around. I don't really talk to them much because I can't take the bullshit. Imagine if everyone you knew treated you like that, just because. That is why I think that concealed carry is still and always will be a big priority, because you can't force people to stay courteous. Some dildo poster a while back was talking about what he would do if he saw someone carrying at a restaraunt, and he actually said, seriously, that he would stab the guy in the neck regardless of what he was doing or how he was acting. There are some real wingnuts out there, and they don't all fall on the other side of the spectrum.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. Clinton? You mean that Democrat Bill guy??

Social stigma is my biggest concern
You know, like the plan of the Clinton administration to make being a gun owner at least as stigmatized a class as, say, drug addicts, sex offenders, smokers, you get the idea. Discourage a behavior by encouraging people to disparage others for owning guns.


Awww. Da poor widdle stigmatized gun-toters.

I thought the discussion was about WEARING guns, not owning them.

You're aware there's a difference?

I own nightwear with purple rosebuds on it. If I walked around town wearing it, well, I think I might be stigmatized. But I'm sure that would be the fault of people with blind prejudice against people who wander the streets in flowery nighties. They'd have no reason at all for thinking I was a loon. No. it would be "just because".


I am not sure if they know I carry, but I do know how much shit is talked about me for any reason and no reason at all when I am not around.

And couldn't Freud just have a field day here.

My family adores me. Maybe that's why I don't feel a need to festoon myself in firearms.


That is why I think that concealed carry is still and always will be a big priority, because you can't force people to stay courteous.

Especially those brothers-in-law. Ya just never know when they might need to be taught a lesson ...



Some dildo poster a while back was talking about what he would do if he saw someone carrying at a restaraunt, and he actually said, seriously, that he would stab the guy in the neck regardless of what he was doing or how he was acting.

Oh. Please. Link. Please.

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tburnsten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 04:42 AM
Response to Reply #20
27. Or maybe there is absolutely no correlation between the two at all
And the poster was Dogtown I think. I am having a hard time wading through the endless pages of results from "dogtown stab" though.




Anyway I can't find it right now, so I will look again later. Talk to you later sweetie.
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tburnsten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #20
31. So Democratic leaders cannot take any wrong approaches with you?
I thought you were more secular than that. Guess everyone has to worship something.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #31
35. ah, but the real question is

Can Democrats take any right approaches in the eyes of the dungeon denizens?

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tburnsten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. When they do something wrong, no
When they do everything else right, they still get the nod, with a little reluctance because of their terrible track record on the one issue.
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #11
25. Sorry to hear about
the family issues. I bet holiday get togethers are a REAL treat :(
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tburnsten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 04:45 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. Yeah, they can be fun.
really though guns are the least of our disagreements. Mostly because I just know better than to talk about them at all any more. My cousin and brother like to shoot with me though.
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. Making anyone
who carries concealed feel like a member of the "raincoat crowd" is foolish. Consideration has to be made for the realities of walking around in the world. CC is far and away the best solution for carrying on campus. No doubt about it.

I would disagree with you about the impact of CC on the learning environment and the maybe the population involved depending on what you think about it. It would have a deleterious impact on both a population that is not all that mature and a constructive environment for higher education. Rather than cut and paste boiler plate or whatever, here are a couple of links if you want to check them out.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


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tburnsten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Just about every state restricts carry licenses to those over 21
Hopefully college students over the age of 21 with enough interest and dedication to get their carry license are exactly like the rest of the population that is dedicated enough to get a carry license, which is to say boringly good.


"2. That individual has had training in conflict de-escalation and negotiation"



Why, are concealed carriers also peace officers or crisis management counselors? If a gun is needed to put a stop to a situation, there will probably not be any doubt about it, and conflict de-escalation seems like a fairly useless skill to try and stop a mass shooter or sexual predator with. Just sayin'.
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. You're right about mass shooting and sexual predators,
but in a university setting a lot of other factors come into play that are unique to that setting and should be addressed somehow.

I'm still working on the whole issue, and it seems to go along with the whole cultural phenomena of firearms in this country. The value of CCW laws across the United States is that the carrying of a firearm is being culturally codified. We are learning, as a country, how to allow people to go personally armed in the twenty first century. I really don't know how any more legislation could be fairly crafted to address irresponsible behavior and violence with guns through more restriction. Okay, maybe something about gun shows, but how do you regulate social networking? Beats me.

We tend to picture graduate students as more stable than their undergrad peers. That's not necessarily the case. Lots of kids go directly from undergraduate school to graduate school. They don't all become upstanding members of the community and sober, clear headed adults in the course of a summer. Any matriculated graduate student could easily get a CHL no matter how drunk or flakey they are. College is all about pushing the envelope. Intellectually, that's just what you want. Personally, it's a bad place to have firearms.

Imagine if you had all the posters in the DU guns forum gather in a room and discuss an issue not related to guns. The pro gun people would be armed. Everyone is required to be there, they are paying a lot of money to do so, and their performance in the debate will have an effect not only on their academic career, but on their future job prospects and their intellectual development as people. Lotsa pressure. Some of those in attendance have no experience with firearms and are terrified of those who are armed. Their concerns would not be justified, but it would throw a bucket of ice water on the entire seminar. Now add one idiot who would use that discomfort as leverage in the debate, even if he had no intention of presenting the CCW. I have known assholes like that. Or another idiot who would use the fact that someone is else armed as unfair leverage. I've known assholes like that too. Guns in classrooms are a bad idea. They present the appearence of an unlevel playing field, and that's enough to wreck the whole process. Graduate programs aren't just lectures. They are seminars where a student's individual research gets developed, and an atmosphere of intellectual freedom and expression are crucial for that to happen.

It would be best if all college and university campuses became gun free zones. Unfortunately, that's just not possible. There are too many security and individual rights issues to make it work. To my mind, the only other option is to intensify the training of inexperienced gun owners to take up the slack. LEO's and ex military personell have been trained to carry a firearm into stressful confusing situations, so they could probably CLEP their way out of it. Lots of other people probably could too, like psycology majors, social workers etc.

What I'm suggesting is some sort of "accelerated maturity training" to address the influence guns would have on those carrying them and everyone around them. It gives inexperienced gun owners and non gun owning peers a leg up on the process of cultural education I mentioned earlier. And since I'm a left wing bleeding heart liberal I'm all for education at every opportunity. Exactly what sort of coursework, how it would be structured, and what it would be called I haven't worked out yet. Might take a while.

Sorry about the long post. Part of why I post here is for brevity training. I still need practice. :)
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tburnsten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I really don't make any distinction between undergrads and grads
I think adult students, who came to school as adults with a life of their own, are by far the most likely to have a carry permit, and are also the least likely to engage in on-campus partying and the kind of foolishness that frequently precedes a tragic incident that includes a gun.

I think a far more useful approach, rather than put carriers through any additional courses (if they are free and open for anyone who wants them, licensed carrier or not and don't take an inordinate amount of time to complete, I think that's great. How about the ability to substitute a DD Form 214 or other indicators of an indivdual's ability to handle stress, especially while armed? I know if you can take three months of being cut down and messed with, armed with an M16 the entire time, not always unloaded, with your tormentors unarmed and nearby, you can certainly handle getting a disappointing grade while wearing your pistol or revolver) would be to focus on establishing a climate where common courtesy and basic manners are prized and valued. The same approaches being used today to ostracize gun owners would be very well used ostracizing people with terrible and confrontational social skills.


Just last friday I was walking along with four others, and two people from the NCO academy were headed our way. I was the furthest left of my group, and one of the two was already far enough left so we weren't in each other's way. I moved more to the right, into the center of my group, to give his buddy room to get through. Instead of altering his direction maybe ten or fifteen degrees to his right to pass us without incident, he turns fifteen degrees to his left and heads directly towards me, then asks me if I'm trying to run him over or something. He was a fucking cock for absolutely no reason at all, he defied all logical ways to move through an occupied area so he could run his mouth at me. It was bad enough that I had to ask everyone I was with what just happened, I really thought I might have done something wrong, but couldn't figure out what it was. It was just that guy's day off I guess.

My point is that the most absolutely basic social skills and manners being held in higher regard than they often are today could eliminate most of the conflict people find themselves in. Helping ALL the students develop into mature and decent human beings is a commendable goal, much more so than singling out gun owners for "social rehabilitation" ever could be.

The school just might become more desireable because of it.
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Sounds good. Shitcan badminton class
Edited on Mon Feb-09-09 02:49 PM by rrneck
and make it compulsory for everyone.

on edit:

You're right about not making a distinction as well. The students don't make one. Nor should they have to. People from all walks of life get that shoved together like that could use a little more training.
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tburnsten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Think of the benefit to the community the school is in as well
I'm sure having the students all receiving some training or education on basic proper manners and the reasons why it isn't a good thing to shove some dude at a bar trying to get a drink because you feel he is too close. Happened to me saturday night, got another shove in response to saying calm down dude. Then he shoved my buddy for telling him to relax. I can't stand heavily urban areas sometimes.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. and the lesson is ...?

Don't shove dudes at bars because they might shoot you in the heart?

I'll remember that if I'm ever down your way again ... which is growing increasingly unlikely ...

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tburnsten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 04:13 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. No...
Regardless of how satisfying it might be... Don't be a cock because it doesn't pay off in the real world. Lots of people don't understand this and so behave like a cock while out and about. Everyone pays for their poor upbringing or shitty people skills, but the people often think they are totally normal. So don't be a cock iverglas, if you're ever down my way again.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. just reminds me too much of one of my favourite stories

to resist.

Meanwhile, I'm thinking there may be something to my theory that the only way that firearms can be used "defensively" as many times as alleged by people like Kleck is that people wearing the things around are way disproportionately prone to being victimized by bad dudes ...


ACTUAL transcript of a US naval ship with Canadian authorities off the coast of Newfoundland in October, 1995. This radio conversation was released by the Chief of Naval Operations on 10-10-95.

Americans: "Please divert your course 15 degrees to the North to avoid a collision."

Canadians: "Recommend you divert YOUR course 15 degrees to the South to avoid a collision."

Americans: "This is the captain of a US Navy ship. I say again, divert YOUR course."

Canadians: "No, I say again, you divert YOUR course."

Americans: "THIS IS THE AIRCRAFT CARRIER USS ABRAHAM LINCOLN, THE SECOND LARGEST SHIP IN THE UNITED STATES' ATLANTIC FLEET. WE ARE ACCOMPANIED BY THREE DESTROYERS, THREE CRUISERS AND NUMEROUS SUPPORT VESSELS. I DEMAND THAT YOU CHANGE YOUR COURSE 15 DEGREES NORTH. THAT'S ONE-FIVE DEGREES NORTH, OR COUNTER MEASURES WILL BE UNDERTAKEN TO ENSURE THE SAFETY OF THIS SHIP."

Canadians: "This is a lighthouse. Your call."

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raimius Donating Member (201 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Fact checking helps.
http://snopes.com/military/lighthouse.asp

If you are going to troll, at least troll with a story that is true.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #23
32. oh for pity's sake

Do you seriously imagine I was not aware of this, and had not read the Snopes page years ago?


Sigh.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

iverglas
Sun Mar-28-04 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #17

18. okay, and for Sunday, the ever popular ...

Just in case anyone missed it when it did the email rounds years ago. I thought it was hilarious. Humour in Uniform, and all that.

http://www.snopes2.com/military/lighthse.htm

... Sadly, it seems to be old as the hills and not true. Although Snopes seems to have missed the point of this particular version, when it says:
Of the many flaws in the recent version, the most glaring is that there is no longer a radio crew - or any crew, for that matter - on any lighthouse on the U.S. coastline. The last one was automated 10 years ago, said Lt. j.g. Ed Westfall, the lighthouse program manager for the U.S. Coast Guard's Fifth District, based in Portsmouth.
... Canadian lighthouses aren't on (and Newfoundland isn't part of) the US coastline.

Sigh.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
19. and they talk about somebody else anthropomorphizing the things

a large framed revolver ... is the perfect companion.

Yeesh.

I think I'll just continue thinking of them as objects called firearms. And I'll keep picking my companions from the human, and occasionally feline, spectrums.

They sure do seem to be symbols of something to somebody, though!


unlike the retarded argument that CC on campus would somehow be "distracting" or create a "threatening learning environment", which is fucking stupid

I guess it wasn't guns interfering in your educational experience, but evidently something did.


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tburnsten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 04:46 AM
Response to Reply #19
29. Knew you loved cats
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #29
33. not really

Do you love guns?

I associate with cats. Of the current three, you might say one is mine, one is the co-vivant's, and one lives here. They were all stray/abandoned. The ferals are nobody's. The co-vivant, big tall guy that he is, would confiscate your gunz in a heartbeat. I'm far more generous.
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tburnsten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. Maybe he should head on down and give it a shot
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tburnsten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #19
30. Also...
If you are hiking in an area populated by mountain lions and other mid-sized animals, it is a damn good idea to have some way to protect yourself from them. A .357 or .44 Magnum revolver is ideal for this.


Maybe someone who has ever left city limits could respond to my post.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. that's nice

If you drive a car, gasoline is handy.

I've never thought of gasoline as my "companion".
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davepc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. More places then not open carry is perfectly legal.
In some states you don't need any type of goverment permission slip to do it.

Legalizing open carry in Texas will bring it into the norm with the majority of the US.
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nitrogen76 Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #3
38. Texas IS leniant on CCW slip-ups
PC 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE
HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun

Meaning, a slip, or the wind blowing your shirt up is not intentional. Intentional is a purposeful movement to unconceal the handgun like pulling your shirt up, or drawing.
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AlinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
8. I think more effort should be put into allowing guns to be carried out in the open and
less on hiding them. 2nd amendment says you can have guns. Why do people have to fight for laws to carry them around?
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raimius Donating Member (201 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
14. Unfortunately
It is rather likely that both of these bills will fail.

I find it ironic that Texas, of all places, bans OC. It doesn't jive with the cowboy image, to me.

I agree that CC is the socially acceptible way to carry. Some people would freak at the sight of a firearm in class. IMO, that's their problem, not the person OCing...but the argument has some merit. Still, we shouldn't be limiting people's rights based on the phobias of others!
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #14
24. If they fail it will be a failure of the legislature.
The governor has indicated that he would sign both if they made it to his desk.
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