Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Thank the gods the AWB is back up at Change dot gov

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Guns Donate to DU
 
Union Label Donating Member (451 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 02:36 PM
Original message
Thank the gods the AWB is back up at Change dot gov
Address Gun Violence in Cities: Obama and Biden would repeal the Tiahrt Amendment, which restricts the ability of local law enforcement to access important gun trace information, and give police officers across the nation the tools they need to solve gun crimes and fight the illegal arms trade. Obama and Biden also favor commonsense measures that respect the Second Amendment rights of gun owners, while keeping guns away from children and from criminals. They support closing the gun show loophole and making guns in this country childproof. They also support making the expired federal Assault Weapons Ban permanent.
http://change.gov/agenda/urbanpolicy_agenda/
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. And folks here wonder at the "stupid" "paranoid" rush to buy semi-auto guns...
wonder no more.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
2. Ah yes the law against ugly black guns hardly ever used in crimes
Those "assault weapons" with less power than a youth size hunting rifle used in about 1/100th of the crimes that a .38 revolver is.

But damn them for having the wrong lug or a pistol grip! Too dangerous! Evil!

And limiting magaizine capacity to 10 to save all those people who would have been killed by shots 11-17 but who can disarm the shooter in the less than two seconds it takes to slam in another magazine of 10 (but of course making it far less convenient for the responsible gun owners who practice enough to shoot only what they are aiming for).


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. If we shoot what we aim for, why do we need more then one round?
One Shot, One Kill.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. But the practice to get that good takes thousands
And having to reload every few shots takes away from the repetition that builds muscle memory.

I carried a gun with a six round capacity should I ever need it for real (never did, and hope that stays so), but I did much more practicing with one that carried 15+1 (obviously I did a good deal of familiarizing practicing with my carry gun too, just not the basic foundational shooting skills practice)

It is of course quite feasible to face multiple threats, but there the need for larger capacities is much less substantive. Short of zombie uprisings or Red Dawn fantasies, any situation that needs more than six well placed shots to stop is going to kill you anyway. I never had any illusions of going up against the Russian Army.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HALO141 Donating Member (425 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. orly?
63 percent of violent encounters involve multiple threats. If one carry's a firearm for defensive purposes one would be well advised to carry one of reasonable capacity and spare magazines.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
18. Fish on #1
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Not very good advice if you hunt...
The notion that one should strive for "one shot, one kill" is a "rural legend" which should die in a forgotten tavern. While it is true that hunters prefer to down/kill their game with one shot, the fact is even the best hunters will sometimes miss (including myself) and be required to use a second round. The important thing is this: a hunter must prepare for the eventuality of a second round kill and train accordingly. The alternative is an animal missed and not taken, or worse, an animal wounded and not taken. In this regard, the bolt-action is more difficult, but serviceable, when compared with a semi-auto.

If I were younger and came to deer hunting earlier, I would have purchased one of the new semi-auto carbines chambered for deer-sized game. The kick is mild, the ergonomics superior, the ease of carry much better when compared with a "traditional" deer rifle (even the Remington 742 semi-auto in .30-'06). These carbines are, of course, based on the scary "assault weapon" AR-15.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #5
19. Fish on #2
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-08 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #19
34. "One shot, one kill" -- I believe that is your satement and not "Fish on #2's"...
or #1's, or #3's, or #4's or whatever numerology you choose.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jmg257 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Because anything REALLY needing to be shot once is probably worth at least a double tap. Semis
allow a quick follow-up or 3.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #6
14. Here, here.
I concur wholeheartedly. Nothing quite like a double tap center mass as a deterrent to vermin of any sorts.

David
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #6
20. Fish on #3
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jmg257 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. And like the "one shot one kill" meme - its a whopper! (but lets leave penis size out of this ;)
Edited on Tue Dec-09-08 02:16 PM by jmg257
Mongo the drugged-up scumbag coming at you with a carving knife - you gonna fire 1 round and then pause to admire your shot placement (or as silly, to work a bolt)?

SCREW THAT!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. You should always go for a one shot one kill, if not your just wasting time and ammo.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jmg257 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Depends what you are shooting at. Double tap, Mozambique, etc... living > time&ammo.
Edited on Tue Dec-09-08 03:04 PM by jmg257
"1 shot 1 kill" is great for Marine Snipers at a distance, but can get the rest of us killed when dealing up close and personal. Easier/faster/safer to fire two/a few at a time then pausing and wondering whether 1 was enough, especially when your target is trying to kill you too. Multiply the impact and shock to help shut him down faster.

I figure if the multiple impacts don't kill 'em, he will still die of lead poisoning!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #3
15. "Assault weapons" only fire one round when the trigger is pulled
just like any other non-automatic civilian firearm. You don't think "assault weapons" are military automatic weapons, do you?

And would you seriously consider arming civilian police with single-shot flintlocks? Why or why not? Those considerations are just as applicable to police as they are to other civilians...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. Fish on #4
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #3
23. Multiple reasons
1. Hunting - Sometimes followup shots are needed. You don't want to leave an animal wounded.

2. Target shooting - I've never heard of a shooting match that involved shooters each getting one and only one shot. Accuracy in bench-rest shooting is scored partly on how close successive shots come to each other.

3. Self-defense - If you miss your target, you are only going to make it mad. Followup shots are sometimes needed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Fish on #5
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. OK, so you are rude, disruptive, and have nothing meaningful to say
:nuke:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Hardly, my original post was a comment to the guy above me.
Like I said before, if you are using more then one round then your wasting time and ammo. When hunting rarely if ever do you get a do over. Your animal has "shit and git" by the time you resight and fire. Even with a semi-auto.
I will give an exception if you are going for bear, but anything else you should bring it down with one shot, if not, you did not do it right.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. You must be a heckuva shot to always hit what you are aiming for
Edited on Tue Dec-09-08 03:14 PM by slackmaster
Have you ever been a door gunner on the space shuttle?

:rofl:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. actually, I was. I have Sputnik mounted on my wall.
now hold still while I take apicture of you and put you back in the stream.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. What, exactly, does hunting have to do with this?
Edited on Tue Dec-09-08 08:42 PM by benEzra
Only 1 in 5 U.S. gun owners hunts. For most of us, hunting is irrelevant.

My wife and I own guns for recreational and competitive (IPSC/USPSA) target shooting, and for defensive purposes. I don't own any single shots and have no use for them.

More Americans lawfully own "assault weapons," as defined by H.R.1022 et seq, than hunt. We'd certainly like to keep them, and to retain lawful access to ammunition, magazines, spare parts, and new ones.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. I use them for the same reasons, except for comp, but I also hunt.
however I don't use "assualt weapons" for home or self defense or hunting. Ihave better suited firearms for that. My "assualt weapon" I use just for fun.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-08 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. You are mistaken...
"When hunting rarely if ever do you get a do over. Your animal has 'shit and git' by the time you resight and fire."

Actually, if you miss a deer (or an exotic axis), the deer may neither "shit" nor "git." Often, they will stand pat and try to get a fix on the noise direction; other times, they will run a couple hundred yards and double back (whitetails have limited ranges they are loathe to leave) in an attempt to discern the threat.

Again, while all hunters prefer "one shot, one kill," to take to the field with that as your goal is to indulge an unpracticed and ignorant approach to downing game which may very well result in lost/unrecovered game. To "do it right," an ethical hunter should take at least some time to learn how to deliver follow-up shots and perhaps more importantly, learn the behavior of the animal hunted.

BTW, when still-hunting moderately-brushed land, you are often faced with delivering off-hand shots (the most difficult). Sometimes I get a deer the first shot; sometimes I don't. But I get 'em.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sir pball Donating Member (425 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
33. Even the most accurate marksmen prefer semis.
"Peter Senich's book, The German Sniper (Paladin Press, 1982), recounts several intriguing interviews with the most successful German snipers in WWII. Their discussions of range, armament and tactics led to some interesting conclusions. Most riflemen would have preferred a semiautomatic weapon if the rifle's precision were comparable and the weapon virtually jam-proof. Body movement while operating the bolt increased the probability of detection, and greater time between shots made it difficult to address multiple targets rapidly." link

I own an "assault weapon", or what some people would call it. An "Evil Black Rifle". A "bullet hose" "designed to kill as many as possible" by "spray firing from the hip".



It has a 24 inch barrel and is almost four feet long overall, weighing sixteen pounds - firing from anything but a bench or prone is an exercise in futility. Concealability? Nil. As it sits with all accoutrements, scope, bipod, sling, case, spare mags and other trivialities, it's worth around $3,000. If I handload, the amortized cost per round is about 50 cents, three or four times for boxed bullets - that's at LEAST $10 for a magazine, $36.49 per if you buy ready made.

At 100 yards, it will put 5 rounds into a 1/2" circle, and that's just with my marginally skilled ass on the trigger. No faster than a bolt-action "hunting" rifle though; the time it takes to cycle a bolt is nothing compared to reacquiring the target and settling the crosshairs - with a 308 bolt action, there's enough "jump" that with muscle memory you can have another round cycled in by the time your eye is focused through the scope again. The only difference between my rifle and this one is that mine reloads itself. If you are pro-AWB...why SHOULDN'T I own mine?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tejas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #3
37. Derringers, starting with LEO's
LEO's can trade in their 15rd semi-autos for derringers, they can set an example for the rest of us.





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-08 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
39. Why is consider a good idea...
Why is it considered a good idea that LEO who can call for backup carry pistol with full capacity magazines (12-15 rounds)?
However a homeowner alone, who face multiple assailants in his/her home should be limited to 6 rounds?

I am all for a magazine cap as along as:
a) LEO
b) all criminals

go first.

Once someone has documented that all LEO and all criminals have no more than 6 round mags I will gladly give up mine.

Sound fair?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jmg257 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
7. Old news - get 'em while you can! And of course it will have no effect on violence in cities.
Gun or otherwise. Never has, never will.

I wish they would address some REAL issues with violence, and stop with the nonsense feel-good but do-nothing bans.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
valhalla Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
8. Hope you enjoy the Democratic majority
while it lasts. More gun control is exactly what the Republicans need to get back in power.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
9. meh. I hope Obama is just making false promises about the AWB to appease anti-rkba folks

But I'm planning as if it is a real agenda item.

3 more 18-round Beretta mags and another 18-round CZ magazine are in the mail.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
10. Hopefully you are joking.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GSPowner Donating Member (89 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Not Joking here...
I plan on buying and build at least 3 to 6 AR15s (depending on cash) with various modifications, as many large capacity magazines as possible and as many 55gr FMJs as I can possibly store. I am starting to believe it will be back and I am kicking myself for believing otherwise. In addition I have my eye on 3 9mm pistols of varing size with high capacity mags and various add-ons. I would like each of my kids and wife to have access to the weapons they might need or want. I also have my eye on a couple of long guns...neve know when you might need to reach out and touch...you know.

I am already stocking up on powder, primers, brass and bullets. From what I hear he is going to TAX the hell out of anything related to fire arms...nothing like sticking up for the common guy huh?...I kind of like my bibles and guns.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. I was responding to the OP being glad about the President Elects stance on guns.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 02:00 AM
Response to Original message
12. Yeah, because we don't need the Congress after 2010 anyway.
And it's a good thing when we pass laws that restrict our rights based on relentless fear-mongering rhetoric.

After all, we've seen how well laws that are not based in reality or good government work out for the country, right?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
chrisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
17. Assault Weapon bans act to keep guns away from...
Edited on Tue Dec-09-08 12:50 PM by chrisa
Minorities and Poor people.

Wouldn't want those peasants to have anymore power than the automatic weapon-owning rich upperclass.

Carry on...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-08 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #17
36. Interesting view with which I "agree" ...
You may wish to visit www.georgiacarry.org and do a local search for "Heller brief" which was submitted in the SCOTUS decision.
Excellent summation of ante-bellum, Jim Crow and "early" 20th century gun laws, and the indelible stains of racism and ethnocentrism which mark them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tejas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-08 06:16 AM
Response to Original message
38. what is it with drive-by posters?
Is it that they realize how foolish their thread is which causes them to disappear?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sun Apr 20th 2014, 01:12 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Guns Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC