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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 01:53 PM
Original message
Natural Gas, the Stealth Energy Crisis
December 17, 2005

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/17/business/17interview.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1134841495-ovHStUqHr7VPoOq/cTrANw

Andrew N. Liveris, the chief executive of Dow Chemical, insists that Americans are facing the worst energy crisis in their history. They just don't know it yet. "American consumers worry about oil and the price of gasoline," he said. " They should worry that there may not be enough natural gas to heat and cool their homes."

. . .

Three years ago, Dow's annual bill for energy and hydrocarbon raw materials was $8 billion. Today that number approaches $22 billion. Put another way, in 2002, energy and feedstocks represented 29 percent of our costs. Today they are 50 percent. The high price of natural gas accounts for most of the rise. And it is a direct consequence of the failed energy policies of the 90's, which encouraged the overbuilding of power stations without increasing the availability of gas.

. . .

I have to do the right thing for our shareholders, so, yes, I go where the prices are lower. We had been planning to build a $4 billion chemical plant in Texas, and we built it in Oman instead. Other issues - health care costs, litigation, lack of tort reform - spur us to locate elsewhere, too, but 80 percent of the reason is the availability of natural gas.

. . .

I want Congress to declare a national emergency, educate the American public about the crisis and unshackle industry. It should allow drilling in the outer continental shelf and elsewhere, and speed up the permitting process for building terminals that accept liquefied natural gas. There are only four terminals in the country. We need 20 or 30 times as many.


So, let’s review, shall we?

- It’s all Clinton’s and the environmentalist’s fault.
- If we let industry do what it wants, we’ll be back to the happy days of the good old 50’s faster than Ricky Nelson’s roadster.

So, my only question is, since conservation is obviously out of the question, would Cape Cod prefer Natural Gas wells or a couple of LNG terminals?

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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. Clinton didn't micromanage the utility companies, but
yes, it's partialy his fault for not restoring the cuts St. Ronnie had made to Carter's research funding into alternative energy solutions. Clinton just sat there for 8 years and let this whole thing build up. He should have known that alternative energy sources needed to be developed. We did.

As for the rest, this article is just more GOP smokescreen, bringing up their pet projects that wouldn't do anything for the energy crisis but which would curtail the rights of American citizens.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
2. Natural gas is one of the most technologically simple fuels to replace.
Two huge uses, electricity and heat, are easily generated in other ways.

There is no reason to savage the environment for more natural gas.
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4dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-25-05 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Say what??
True that NG is primarily used for heating and electricity but what do you propose that will replace the NG?? Solar and wind??
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-25-05 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Nuclear power.
It's cleaner, safer, and cheaper.

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4dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-26-05 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. And just how much uranium do you believe
is left in the world. The subject of nuclear power always comes up but most people fail to realize that uranium is also a finite resource.. Unless you make breeder reactors that will spew radioactive waste for a millenuim.



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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-26-05 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. First, you can tell us about this "spewing."
Edited on Mon Dec-26-05 09:34 AM by NNadir
You don't think that natural gas burning is immune from "spewing" waste, do you? Do you have any idea how much carbon dioxide has been spewed? Any record of how many people have been killed by spewing associated with natural gas, say in the last few years?

Let me help you with the first ten hits one gets when one goggles "natural gas explosion":



Natural Gas Explosion and Fire in South Riding, Virginia, July 7, 1998File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat
Abstract: About 12:25 am on July 7, 1998, a natural gas explosion and fire destroyed a newly. constructed residence in the South Riding community in Loudoun ...
www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2001/PAR0101.pdf - Similar pages


Natural Gas Explosion?A similar, though more violent, natural gas explosion occurred in 1890 in a river bed near Waldron, Indiana. See ESC4-X3 in the Catalog: Anomalies in ...
www.science-frontiers.com/sf070/sf070g13.htm - 6k - Cached - Similar pages


Summit Daily News for Breckenridge, Keystone, Copper and Frisco ...Natural gas explosion shakes up Colo. between Rifle and Rulison. Get News Feeds RSS Feed · Add to My Yahoo! HEIDI RICE garfield county correspondent ...
www.summitdaily.com/article/20051207/NEWS/112070033 - 30k - Cached - Similar pages


Stumbo Monitors Natural Gas Explosion in Ivel, KentuckyOfficial web site of Kentucky Attorney General Greg Stumbo.
ag.ky.gov/news/2004rel/explosion.htm - 13k - Cached - Similar pages


Austin Texas Natural Gas Explosion Litigation Attorney Propane ...Gas, fire, and explosion cases may result from numerous causes. When someone else is at fault, the Austin, Texas attorneys at Whitehurst, Harkness, ...
www.whoblaw.com/PracticeAreas/ PropaneNaturalGasExplosionLitigation.asp - 25k - Cached - Similar pages


Lawyers for Natural Gas Explosions and Explosion InformationNatural gas explosion lawyers and information on gas explosions. With decades of experience and a record of success, Fred Pritzker can help you.
www.pritzkerlaw.com/gas-explosion-lawyers/ - 36k - Cached - Similar pages


Pravda.RU Natural gas explosion in Arkhangelsk kills 48Rescue workers found the body a woman under the debris of the apartment building in Arkhangelsk that exploded, the deputy chief of the information ...
newsfromrussia.com/accidents/2004/03/17/52832.html - 51k - Cached - Similar pages


natural gas explosion and detection fire gas || Bison Engineering ||natural gas explosion, equipment gas propane, expert recreational vehicle witness, expert witness consultant and expert witness service - Bison Engineering ...
www.bisonengineering.com/natural-gas-explosion.html - 14k - Cached - Similar pages


DenverPost.com - BUSINESSNatural-gas explosion creates legal firestorm A hard lesson in business risk coverage. By Greg Griffin Denver Post Staff Writer ...
www.denverpost.com/business/ci_3252929 - 208k - Cached - Similar pages


Try your search again on Google Book Search


Maybe you will accept my challenge that no other anti-environmental anti-nuclear activist has accepted: Identify a person in the United States killed by the storage of so called "nuclear waste." Then tell me why so called "nuclear waste" is the only form of energy waste that is important. Then list for me all of the sources of energy that are completely harmless and involve no risk to anything or anyone at all at any time or in any place. Obviously natural gas, a very dangerous and dirty fuel (at least if you take global climate change seriously) would not qualify.

Sorry, I don't play the "nuclear exceptionalism" game wherein only so called "nuclear waste" counts and where non-nuclear dangers are irrelevant owing to the poor ethics of those who hate nuclear energy because it is spelled with an "N", and/or because they either never learned or failed to remember a whit of physics.

Uranium and thorium resources are sufficient to last for many hundreds of thousands of years. Some people think they are inexhaustible. The major drawback to the use of these resources that I see is that the use of these resources will greatly reduce the radioactivity of the planet, with unknowable consequences.
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4dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-27-05 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. My, my, my
are we the testy one today. Of all the energy "wastes", which is the most dangerous?? Can you say NUCLEAR WASTE?? Would you care to store it in your basement or backyard??

Uranium and thorium resources are sufficient to last for many hundreds of thousands of years.

Say who?? Prove your assumptions as most people that know that Current usage is about 68,000 tU/yr. Thus the world's present measured resources of uranium in the lower cost category (3.5 Mt) and used only in conventional reactors, are enough to last for some 50 years. And that's not including what would happen if we started building 10 to 100's more nuclear power plants!!

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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. The most dangerous?
Actually, it's fossil fuel waste, which kills around 700,000 people per year. As opposed to nuclear waste, which has only killed one person (an anti-nuke protester who got run over by a train carrying nuclear waste, a few months ago).
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. "Dangerous" means it hurts some one usually.
Can you say "global warming?"

I didn't think so.

Are you contending that so called "nuclear waste" has killed as many people as the drought in Mali? The hurricanes?

Well are you? Prove it.

You have, as is typical of this rote unscientific fear of so called "nuclear waste," not actually produced a person injured by the storage of spent fuel. Your argument boils down to "it is true because I say so."

The ocean contains 3-4 billion tons of uranium. The Japanese have demonstrated that this is recoverable whenever the price of uranium rises above $200/kg, using polyamidoxime resins. If you don't believe me, google it. I note that of the 68,000 tU produced each year, only 3% is actually consumed in a reactor. Because of stupidity and mysticism, the residual is not recovered in the United States, but it will be, when and if, uranium prices rise, which will happen when and if uranium becomes in short supply. In fact, for the last decade most of the world's reactors have been running on surplus uranium. In fact the world is awash in fissionable material. If one understands physics and is able to do relatively simple calculations, one can immediate tell from this link http://npc.sarov.ru/english/digest/162005/appendix4.html that their is sufficient isolated highly enriched fissionable material to fuel all of the world's existing reactors for 10 years without operating a single mine. I note with respect to plutonium that all of the world's existing reactors would consume all of this plutonium, but instead would produce an amount of plutonium that is equivalent to 80% of the existing stockpile. One could, in theory, run the world's existing reactors for many years hence without mining uranium at all. The reason that uranium is mined rather than recovered is because it is cheaper to mine it than it is to recover it from spent fuel. When this situation changes, it is very easy to change one's approach to getting uranium.

I will not bother to point out any further reactor physics to you, since you are clearly a priori not in any position to understand it. Basically the argument that the world will run out of uranium (soon) depends on the argument that the only isotope suitable for fission is U-235. This is complete nonsense and usually this argument comes from people who have basically NO understanding whatsoever of nuclear technology - generally the exact same set of people who refer to so called "nuclear waste" as "dangerous" even though they can't demonstrate a single person harmed by its storage. I know this sort very well; they are the kind who think that a uranium inquiry in Niger is the same as making a nuclear weapon.

This sort of person is, unfortunately for the environment, common and, to a man and woman, represent ive of a set of people who have never bothered to learn enough about the subject of energy to demonstrate even a passing familiarity with reality. The world will NOT survive without nuclear power. If you think it can, say how and please spare me the nonsense, dithering and wishful thinking about PV solar cells. I am a liberal and therefore I am not interested in hearing how only the wealthy can survive.

In fact the main reason that more uranium is not recovered is because uranium (and thorium, which is available in quantities that are 3X larger than uranium) is so cheap. In fact, it is equivalent to crude oil at much less than 0.01 cents per gallon. Something that cheap hardly seems in short supply. Thorium, in fact, is not recovered at all upon removal ores used to obtain lanthanides used to make television tubes. Instead the thorium is dumped after a great deal of silly agonizing over its radioactivity. The world's thorium dumps easily contain many centuries worth of energy.

The world is planning on expanding its nuclear capacity by 37%, which is huge number since nuclear power already provides about 8% of the world's primary energy demand. http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/reactors.htm (Along with hydroelectric power, nuclear represents the only major form of on demand energy that is greenhouse gas free.) I don't think the billions so invested would come if people seriously were concerned about uranium and thorium supplies.
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LiberalEsto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-25-05 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Syngas & methane
There are ways being developed to make synthetic fuel gases using biomass such as the "black liquor" from paper pulp mills, which would otherwise become a pollutant. The method is called steam re-forming and it's being tried in Canada and at a Georgia-Pacific pulp mill in the US.

Here's a link to an article I wrote about steam reforming for Gas Technology magazine a few years ago: http://www.energysolutionscenter.org/resources/PDFs/GT_W02_SteamReforming.pdf

Methane is a major component of natural gas. Decomposing sewage releases methane gas, and methane also has to be piped out of landfills so it doesn't build up and explode. I'm not trying to be funny, but cow flatulence is largely methane and it can be captured and used to light and heat dairy barns.

The utility industry doesn't want us to develop local energy self-sufficiency. It would rather have a big privately owned infrastructure (including these huge LNG terminals) so that it can control and limit our emerge supply, and manipulate prices.
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-25-05 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Cow farts
but cow flatulence is largely methane and it can be captured...

Umm, have you considered the mechanics of this? :D
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LiberalEsto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-25-05 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. It's being done in Vermont
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-25-05 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. I deal with it by eating oatmeal
Grains, legumes, and fresh or frozen vegetables are my diet. Much simpler. Thanks for the link, though! :hi:
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. What a crock of shit
err, literally :) Not quite capturing farts but a good use of other waste...
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Eugene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
3. The Republicans fought tooth and nail for rule of the marketplace.
Let's not forget how a GOP Congress blocked most of the
Clinton administration's alternative energy proposals.
When the Clinton administration proposed an industrial policy,
Republicans denounced it saying that the government would be
picking winners and losers.

This is the second natural gas crunch in six years.
Government regulations don't hamper exploration as
much as a nasty boom/bust cycle in which low prices
drive higher consumption as suppliers got out of
the business.
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rfkrfk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-25-05 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
6. NG is ideal for transportation
a NG transit bus, is much nicer than the Old Smokey it replaces.
NG can also be used in cars, same for propane.

Using Ng to generate electricity is kinda stupid

on the other hand, it is entertaining watching the
morons who went with the {several years ago}
NG to electricity boom in places like California,
getting what they deserve.
choose the easy {but most expensive} choice, you get what you get.

the {wholesale, before-tax} price of gasoline, NG, diesel,
etc, etc, etc, will tend to be the same, as adjusted
for energy content, as all that stuff is interchangable,
at least in the long term

think propane is cheap, think again,
I need propane as 'boost fuel' in my car.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-25-05 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Cleveland RTA is replacing methane with diesel for our busses
Methane/NG is more expensive & hard to handle (fueling stations are expensive due to security concerns). The new standards for low sulfur diesel make the diesel engines much cleaner.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-25-05 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
7. Dow can eat shit and die.
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