Real wind power storage...Spain's Iberdrola Planning for 2012 Launch of Large Pumped-Storage Plant

[Fledermaus]

I'm not sure what happened to all of the vehicle to grid lithium ion battery plug in hybrids.

Researched by Industrial Info Resources (Sugar Land, Texas) -- Iberdrola S.A. (MADRID:IBE) (Bilbao, Spain) recently announced that it will build one of the largest pumped-storage hydropower plants in Europe by 2012. The 850-megawatt (MW) Muela II Hydroelectric Power Plant will be added to the Cortes-Muela Hydroelectric Complex to increase pumping capacity from 555 MW to 1,110 MW and for the complex to reach a total power output of 1,260 MW. The $304 million project began construction in March 2007 on the Jucar River
http://www.redorbit.com/news/business/1517637/spains_iberdrola_planning_for_2012_launch_of_large_pumpedstorage_plant/


http://www.industcards.com/ps-europe.htm

[kristopher]

1. You're operating in the wrong verb tense.

Pumped storage is great when the geography is cooperative.

A fleet of 200 million EVs equipped with v2g will be even better.

[Fledermaus]

2. The fleet of 200 million EVs equipped with v2g doesn't exists.

And there will be more upgrades and new pumed hydro storage before a 200 million fleet does exists.

[kristopher]

3. That's why I said you're using the wrong verb tense.

Yes there will be more pumped hydro, and more vandium redox batteries, and more basements filled with 80% capacity NiMH bateries; and we'll evensee some CAES natural gas come online. All good and great. It would make a dent in our storage needs, however.

And they are going to be niche markets that disappears when the battery packs reach a mature development. In ten years, the new batteries will be technology we've all been waiting for. What we have now is "good enough" but what is coming is fantastic.a

[Fledermaus]

4. There aren't any basements filled with NiMH batteries and

there aren't any vandium redox batteries being used to store and stabilize wind energy. They don't exist, and no one is building a 200 million V2G car fleet.

[kristopher]

5. That's false.

There is a market for used NiMH that are unfit for original device application because they only charge to 80% or less. They bank them and use them for load leveling.

Trends and status of battery energy storage for utility applications
Akhil, A.
Battery Conference on Applications and Advances, 1995., Proceedings of the Tenth Annual
Volume , Issue , 10-13 Jan 1995 Page(s):273 - 277
Digital Object Identifier 10.1109/BCAA.1995.398527
Summary:Since the early 1970s, there has been a steady effort to introduce batteries to the electric utility industry for large scale energy storage in a load leveling mode. Utilities, on the other hand, have been relatively indifferent to this technology for a number of technical and institutional reasons that primarily involve the economic viability of this technology in the load leveling mode. However, from the late 1980s and early 1990, the concept of using batteries primarily for load leveling has undergone a radical change as a result of analytical studies as well as changes in hardware design practice. Now, batteries are being promoted for a wider range of high value applications that go beyond load leveling, and potentially affect the transmission and distribution as well as customer-side operations of the electric utility. As a result, utilities are showing a renewed interest in battery energy storage and several utilities are evaluating battery energy storage projects. This paper discusses the significant trends that are driving the renewed utility interest in this technology and reviews the status of ongoing utility projects

As to your amanojaku comments on the 200 million v2g, I suppose that would depend on how you define "is". Judging by your posts, you're not the best at making sense of complexity so I can see how my view might elude you.

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/story?id=48085

[Fledermaus]

6. Its true, name one plant.

being used to store & supply power to the grid stabilizing wind energy.

[kristopher]

7. Amanojaku

[Fledermaus]

8. I see, well I'll take that as a no.

[kristopher]

12. Amanojaku meaans 'wrongheaded' when used in common jernacular.

Your sequence of questions is nothing but a person being mean-spirited; you have no interest an a real dialogue. Also, you have demonstrated an extremely limited ability to understand complex thought - so I think you have enough information and just don't get it. If you don't believe me, as difficult as it may be; I will somehow manage to endure the shame and still get through each day - one agonizing moment at a time.

The article I posted is perfectly acceptable evidence of the assertions I've made.

Trends and status of battery energy storage for utility applications
Akhil, A.

Battery Conference on Applications and Advances, 1995., Proceedings of the Tenth Annual
Volume , Issue , 10-13 Jan 1995 Page(s):273 - 277
Digital Object Identifier 10.1109/BCAA.1995.398527

Summary:Since the early 1970s, there has been a steady effort to introduce batteries to the electric utility industry for large scale energy storage in a load leveling mode. Utilities, on the other hand, have been relatively indifferent to this technology for a number of technical and institutional reasons that primarily involve the economic viability of this technology in the load leveling mode. However, from the late 1980s and early 1990, the concept of using batteries primarily for load leveling has undergone a radical change as a result of analytical studies as well as changes in hardware design practice. Now, batteries are being promoted for a wider range of high value applications that go beyond load leveling, and potentially affect the transmission and distribution as well as customer-side operations of the electric utility. As a result, utilities are showing a renewed interest in battery energy storage and several utilities are evaluating battery energy storage projects. This paper discusses the significant trends that are driving the renewed utility interest in this technology and reviews the status of ongoing utility projects.

Now there are two options: the projects were abandoned, or the projects were successful. In the 18 years since this paper was published, battery technology has improved. On what is in the abstract, and technology has improved battery performance and longevity, It is reasonable to allow that the claim is true - and I assert that to be the case.

If you don't believe it, feel free - in the most cheerful way - to piss off.

[Fledermaus]

14. Large Scale Electrical Energy Storage in Colorado Date:June 30, 2007

Many advances in electrical energy storage technology and methods have been made in recent times. These advances have come in the areas of batteries, large scale pumped hydroelectric storage plants, compressed air energy storage, flywheels, superconducting magnetic energy storage, and super-capacitors. Chemical energy storage, most commonly applied in batteries, is the world’s most prolific form of energy storage. However,there are several drawbacks to batteries for large systems, including cost, short lifetime, and disposal concerns. The next most common form of energy storage is pumped hydroelectric (PHES). This method has been successfully applied to large utility scale projects in the 50 MW to 2 GW power range, though it is severely limited by geography. Compressed air energy storage (CAES) is an emerging option for storage,also finding its best application in large utility scale projects. Flywheels, superconducting magnetics, and super-capacitors are generally suitable for lower energy applications, although somewhat high power output can be attained when many devices are combined. These devices are generally quite expensive. No cost effective and efficient energy storage method for large-scale needs has yet emerged from these advances in technology.

Are there locations in Colorado that are technically and economically feasible for the development of pumped hydroelectric energy storage (PHES)? The answer: A preliminary search and analysis says yes, many locations are available. These locations span a breadth of energy and power ratings, each with distinct economic realities and other ancillary benefits.

Cabin Creek Station <25> is a 324 MW pumped hydroelectric facility currently operated by Xcel Energy. This plant has been in operation since 1967. Xcel energy has stated that without the operation of Cabin Creek the cost to integrate wind in the Public Service Company of Colorado’s (Xcel) grid would be 50% more <26>. The Cabin Creek example is analyzed to check the accuracy and methods of the Hydro Calculator. The power and capacity numbers are correct as calculated and compared with the operating specifications of Cabin Creek Station. The calculated power in this analysis is 329MW and calculated energy output is 1,317 MWh. The actual specifications are 324MW and 1,296 MWh.
http://ceri-mines.org/documents/LargeScaleElectricalEnergyStorageinColorado-BarnesgroupCU_001.pdf

[kristopher]

15. And what is it that you think this means?

You fail to comment because you don't know what it means, right?

[Fledermaus]

19. The original post and this report speak for themselves,

No myopic obtuse V2G battery fantasies in ten years, no battery basement utopias, just water flowing down hill. That’s how utilities are integrating renewable energy, and that’s how they plan to continue integrating renewable energy.

I’m sure, if you looked long and hard enough, you could find some unique application using high tech batteries. However, countries and utilities that have integrated large amounts of renewable energy use hydro and pumped hydro to store energy and stabilize their grids, and they plan to use more. Utilities this country are doing the same.

However, if you know of some utility that is building a V2G fleet or filling up people’s basements with battery racks, please please give us the link and stop projecting your mental health issues on us.

[kristopher]

20. You haven't shown anything about how this is going to work on a national or global scale.

The only thing you've shown is that there are SOME locations where pumped hydro can work.

I agree. I also KNOW that it doesn't have the potential to be a significant part of the solution to moving to a renewable grid. If you don't believe it, work it out for yourself. Figure out how the flat lands and scale of storage needed across the entire continent are going to be satisfied by pumped hydro. Then figure out how much it will add in capital cost to the cost building a renewable grid based on wind and solar - figure 50% of total capacity will have to run through this storage. What you'll find is that the cost of transition to renewables has skyrocketed - probably more than tripled. Now if you limit pumped hydro to the areas where it doesn't cost an arm and a leg to build then you aren't going to meet more than a small percentage of your storage needs.

1) V2G is perfectly distributed to match the demand.
2) The capital costs are already being spent by automobile consumers to get the huge efficiency increase of EV over ICE autos.
3) The utilities and governments have strong motives to support and are supporting V2G because of 1 & 2 & 5.
4) In early stages and at low levels of penetration V2G provides strong economic incentives to the vehicle owner; rewards at later stages and higher rates of market penetration flow from reduced battery pricing and improved design brought about by increased demand.
5) Added on edit: There are very substantial savings in the overall cost of providing electricity starting with as few as 100 vehicles.


Now apparently the only argument you have against is that you don't already see a V2G equipped car in every driveway, and the fact that you've found a couple of websites with narrow analysis of a couple of cases of pumped hydro. That is pretty much the same argument that nuclear proponents use to say that solar and wind can't meet our needs.

IF you wish to argue from such ignorance of reality and logic that is your choice, but it's simply a fact to say that with such an argument you aren't grasping more than a small slice of the big picture.

As to your challenge to produce some evidence, I've already done that. If you want pictures, you'll have to search them out yourself. You might start with PG&E. I'd also check BART in SF and whoever operates the utility in SoCal.

[Fledermaus]

26. ??? Its reality vs. your fantasy

Countries that have high penetration of wind energy are using hydro and pumped hydro to store and stabilizes renewable energy. Spain has their own hydro. Denmark sells their excess wind energy to Scandinavian countries. Germany sells theirs to Austria. Switzerland is building new pumped hydro.

Utilities, in this country, that are building a high penetration of wind penetration, are using and investing in hydro.

Alta Mesa Pumped Storage

The Pumped Storage project is a 70 megawatt energy storage facility to be constructed in the San Gorgonio Pass near Palm Springs, California. The project will store electric power by pumping water uphill. Later, when power demand peaks, the stored water flows downhill to produce power. The Pumped Storage facility will provide the ability to store power produced by nearby wind power projects to allow for "firm" power sales from an intermittent resource.

Major project facilities will consist of an upper reservoir atop the Alta Mesa, a lower reservoir near the valley floor, a powerhouse with a reversible pump/turbine, and a pipeline connecting the reservoirs with the powerhouse. No natural watercourses will be used by the project; it will be a closed-loop, constructed system. The facility will be able to store 420 megawatt-hours (about the daily consumption of 17,500 homes) and produce its full 70 megawatt rated output for 6 continuous hours.

Other features of the project include:

Will produce 130,000 MWh per year of high-value on-peak power, and consume 175,000 MWh per year of low-value off-peak power.
Cycle efficiency of 74%.
1250 feet vertical separation between upper and lower reservoirs.
6,300 feet of penstock length.
Approx. 96 inch penstock diameter.
113 million gallons of water storage.
Interconnect with Southern California Edison (and then to the California Independent System Operator grid).
Environmental review and permitting underway.
Project site owned by TenderLand Power Company affiliate.
http://www.tenderland.com/am_ps.htm

No one is using V2G. No one is planning to use V2G. No one is planning to use V2G in ten years.

[kristopher]

27. How close to build out are they? How much fossil fuel do we want to displace?

The amount of expansion possible is extremely limited; and compared to the amount of storage needed it is only a small fraction of what is required.
You are lumping conventional existing hydro in with pumped hydro with your European examples.

So answer these questions:
How close to build out are they?
How much fossil fuel do we want to displace?

Then ask the same questions in the US.

Beyond that, I don't know what to tell you. What I want is to replace all fossil fuels with renewables, and to do that V2G is going to have be the key part of the solution. Apparently you want to limit the penetration of renewables by inflating storage costs. You also, for no logically stated reason, want to deny the existence of the *only* technically feasible, cost effective solution to the storage issue.

Ok, you've denied it.

You haven't argued it, you haven't proved it; but you've denied it.

You must still be pining away over your lost delusions on ethanol as the silver bullet solution to our energy needs, eh?

[Fledermaus]

28. Your verbal gymnastics don't change a thing.

Eskom, local authorities and the private sector are set to launch huge renewable energy projects that will add at least 350 megawatts of electricity to the national energy grid.

The planned renewable energy projects include two 100MW wind farms on the West Coast, a 100MW solar thermal plant in the Northern Cape and a 50MW solar thermal plant on the West Coast.

http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=14&click_id=14&art_id=vn20070211082030889C716500

State power utility Eskom has received all the necessary approvals, including an environmental record of decision, to proceed with a second multibillion-rand pumped-storage scheme, dubbed ‘Project Lima’, this time in Limpopo province.

The utility is already constructing a R9-billion pumped-storage scheme, known as Ingula (previously Braamhoek), in the Drakensberg mountain range on the border between the Free State and KwaZulu-Natal provinces.
http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/article.php?a_id=120608

Apparently, V2G is not even being considered.

Proposed Generation Portfolio by 2025

40 000 MW + generating capacity addition over the next 20 years Eskom plans to reduce coal’s current 88% share of the primary energy mix by 10% by 2012 - coal’s share to be 70% by 2025
Maximise additional nuclear capacity (17% – 28%) by 2025
Renewable energy capacity to exceed 1 600 MW subject to acceptable
economics, including distributed renewable opportunities
Imports pursued to a maximum of the prevailing reserve margin
Additional pumped storage capacity where technically and
economically feasible
The demand-side management and energy efficiency programme
target of 8,000 MW by 2025, including distributed generation
options
http://74.125.45.104/search?q=cache:pb_xzjpLq3gJ:www.eiug.co.za/site-work-space/restricted-documents/EIUGF27May08BuildupdatePhotosOut.pdf/download+Ingula+pumped+storage+renewable&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=6&gl=us

[kristopher]

29. You still haven't addressed the points I've made.

I've repeatedly said where it is (to quote your document) "technically and economically feasible" pumped hydro is a good deal. However, it doesn't economically scale up to meet the storage needs of a renewable grid. Repeatedly denying it isn't going to change the fundamentals of this equation any more than repeatedly exaggerating the EROI of ethanol change the economics of that technology. You must be a closet Bushie to believe that ad nauseum repetition of a falsehood will somehow make it true.

[Fledermaus]

30. Reality

Hydroelectric power in California

The pumped storage potential of the state has an upper limit of 6.5 quads, all undeveloped. ^It is anticipated that development of the pumped storage potential of the state will follow simultaneous and parallel development of other renewable resources, notably wind.

The attendant water and land requirements for the full development of the 6.5 quads of the pumped storage potential, do not pose any strain on the natural resources of the state since they constitute only 1.0% of the annual rainfall and 0.1% of the land of California.^Finally, hydroelectric development entails, in most cases, changes in the environment.^Past experience, however, has proven that responsible study, planning, and execution of any hydroelectric project always leads to results beneficial to both nature and humanity

http://www.osti.gov/energycitations/product.biblio.jsp?osti_id=6620659

California

Total Retail Sales
(megawatt hours) 262,958,528
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/st_profiles/e_profiles_sum.html

262,958,528,000 kilowatt hour = 0.897251700 quad
And the pumped storage potential upper limit is 6.5 quads

I don't see any room for V2G in those numbers. If you can't sell V2G in California, where are you going to sell them?

[kristopher]

31. That's a little better

Not much, but a little. In a state with mountains running its entire length, your source specifies that economics aren't favorable for the development of pumped hydro as of 1979, why would you think it is more favorable now when a much less expensive alternative has been developed? So to answer your question, I can sell them v2g because even with all that pumped hydro potential, the v2g is going to provide a better cost/benefit ratio.

The problem you're facing is that you still haven't dredged up either a comparative analysis across storage mediums nor a national/global analysis of the distribution of easily developed pumped hydro sites. Remember, we can build the infrastructure for pumped hydro nearly anywhere if we have unlimited funds - which is the concept you seem to be arguing from.

Here are couple of hits from the google scholar search /v2g pumped hydro wind/

You may also want to google /greenblat caes backup wind/

Enjoy!

http://www.pnl.gov/energy/eed/etd/pdfs/phev_feasibility_analysis_combined.pdf.

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpls/abs_all.jsp?arnumber=4544169
This paper appears in: Vehicle Power and Propulsion Conference, 2007. VPPC 2007. IEEE
Publication Date: 9-12 Sept. 2007
On page(s): 457-462
ISBN: 978-0-7803-9760-6
INSPEC Accession Number: 10056328
Digital Object Identifier: 10.1109/VPPC.2007.4544169
Date Published in Issue: 2008-06-17 14:07:17.0
Abstract
One of the unique advantages of plug-in hybrid vehicles is their capability to integrate the transportation and electric power generation sectors in order to improve the efficiency, fuel economy, and reliability of both systems. This goal is performed via integration of the onboard energy storage units of plug-in vehicles with the power grid by power electronic converters and communication systems. Employing energy storage systems improves the efficiency and reliability of the electric power generation, transmission, and distribution. Similarly, combining an energy storage system with the power train of a conventional vehicle results in a hybrid vehicle with higher fuel efficiency. In both cases, the energy storage system is used to provide load leveling. In this paper, viability of utilizing the same energy storage unit for both transportation and power system applications is discussed. Furthermore, future trends in analysis, design, and evaluation of distributed energy storage system for the power grid using power-electronic-intensive interface are identified.

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy06osti/39729.pdf.
A Preliminary Assessment of Plug-In Hybrid Electric Vehicles on Wind Energy Markets
W. Short and P. Denholm

...
Wind
The use of wind energy for electricity generation has grown dramatically with decreasing
costs and improved performance of wind turbines, increasing fossil fuel costs, and
growing environmental concerns. The United States has a large wind power resource
base, exceeding the current installed electricity generation capacity from all sources. The
development and use of this power resource is limited by a number of factors, including
the location of high-value wind resources, the resource variability of wind energy, and
the relatively low availability (measured as amount of electricity actually
generated/maximum electricity available, if operated continuously at full-rated power) of
this generation source, compared to conventional alternatives.

Variability in wind output implies limited predictability; high natural ramp rates; and,
often, limited coincidence with peak demand. These factors can restrict the ultimate
penetration of wind power into traditional electric power systems. The high reliability
required by such systems dictates that ample capacity is always available and that
conventional generators are able to follow the variations in loads, forced outages, and
variable supplies like wind. Where wind power adds to these capacity requirements, it
usually incurs additional costs.

One possible solution to the problem of variable wind output is energy storage—the
application of any of several technologies that can store electricity when it is not needed
—and that can deliver stored electricity when demand is high, or renewable output is low.
The United States currently has about 20 GW of pumped hydroelectric storage in place,
with further expansion restricted by lack of available sites, environmental issues and high
cost. While there are a few other options, such as compressed air energy storage, 1
these technologies all add significantly to the cost of electricity to be stored.

The optimal solution for wind would be coupling it with a low-cost source of energy
storage (or dispatchable load) that is perhaps already in existence for some other purpose.
The emergence of “plug-in” hybrid electric vehicles may provide this significant
opportunity....

[Fledermaus]

32. ???The papers/links you provided have nothing to do with V2G.

I can sell them v2g because even with all that pumped hydro potential, the v2g is going to provide a better cost/benefit ratio.

No one is building V2G and no one plans to. Are you going to build them?
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
The papers/links you provided have nothing to do with V2G.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Plug in hybrids don't put power back into the grid. They are not Vehicle to Grid...aka V2G. They are grid to vehicle...just one way.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

China has some 15,000MW of pumped-storage hydro plants planned, in operation or construction. Tianhuangping is the largest pumped storage scheme in Asia, and the third largest in the world.
http://www.power-technology.com/projects/tianhuangping/

[kristopher]

33. You've lost it...

Or more likely, you never had it.

Those papers all deal with using EVs as grid storage. They even deal with it on your level by providing cute little pictures with arrows from the cars going both ways. Too bad about that reading problem you have...

[madokie]

21. I thought the subject was pumped storage

I have a question for you there. Why do you feel you have to push your personal ideas on every one of us. No one except for you that I can see is talking about "V2G" so you stomp on anyone else's thread and start blowing your horn. WHY??? Lets talk about the subject or start your own damn thread about your pet peeve. sheeeze :shrug:

Pumped storage = battery

[kristopher]

22. If you don't like it don't read my posts.

The subject line reads "Real wind power storage" implying that pumped hydro is the best solution for wind (intermittent) power. That is a statement I disagree with. If you think I'm wrong, then explain why. But as to you telling me to not post...

Nah.

[madokie]

24. I'm telling you that it gets old that you have to hijack a thread to push your ideas

I'm interested in pumped storage but when you go on and on about v2g it makes it hard to have a discussion on the subject, pumped storage.

have a good day dude

splchk

[kristopher]

25. How does it interfere? These threads always develop numerous subthreads.

These threads always develop numerous sub-threads, is there some reason you'd like to share that shows multiple discussions in one thread are mutually exclusive?

What I'm concerned about is that we focus our resources where they will do the most good. And as it happens, the information I'm contributing is extremely relevant to placing pumped storage into the context of its capabilities and our needs. The information is correct, if you don't like it, that isn't my problem.

To follow your lead, let me say that I have a lot of respect for pumped storage. It holds a great deal of potential for community development since it can be incorporated as providing both "waterfront living" and energy storage. However, it is limited by geography or the price of creating an artificial drop.

If you'd like to see an interest variant on the concept check this out: http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Zotloterer_Gravitational_Vortex_Power_Plant


Edited to add: this is the first sentence in the OP "I'm not sure what happened to all of the vehicle to grid lithium ion battery plug in hybrids."

So perhaps you'd better take your gripe to the mouse.

[NNadir]

10. You are citing a 12 year old paper with a big "could" in front of it as evidence

of a "battery revolution?"

Are you trying to look ridiculous or do you just stumble into it obliviously?

[kristopher]

13. There is nothing wrong with that paper.

The batteries are currently in use. The paper shows that 28-18 years ago they crunched some numbers and found that battery storage is cost effective means of avoiding the cost of peaking plants for regulation power. Since that time, technology has improved and use of rechargable battery use has exploded - providing a ready supply of perfectly usable cheap batteries.

I know it's complex, but you're just going to have to get your mommy to explain it to you. Take a paper and crayon when you ask, though, she will probably need to use lots of pictures.

[NNadir]

9. What if they built a dam an no water came?

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/04/13/europe/spain.php

A lot of people are beginning to feel that the Sahara has moved across the straits.

Spain is a climate change joke.

Of the nations in Europe that are not economic basket cases - although Spain may end up an economic basket case - only Norway has performed worse than Spain in per capita emissions deterioration since the year 2000.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/international/iealf/tableh1cco2.xls

Wind kingdom my ass. It's just another "lipstick on a pig" natural gas hell hole.

[Fledermaus]

11. Spain's CO2 Emissions Fell in 2006 - Study

MADRID - Spain's emissions of carbon dioxide, the main global warming gas, fell by 4.1 percent in 2006 compared with 2005, reversing years of fast growth, a report by environmental group Worldwatch and trade union CCOO showed.

Spanish union CCOO's Environment Secretary Joaquin Nieto said the fall in emissions was less a result of government policy and more a result of milder weather, high fossil fuel prices and growth of wind power generation capacity.

http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/41462/story.htm

[NNadir]

16. Oh bull. Compared to what? Their record setting year in 2005?

That's like an alcoholic announcing that after having 30 arrests for drunk driving in 2005, she now have the situation under control because she only got arrested 20 times in 2006.

MADRID (Reuters) - Spain's carbon dioxide emissions rose 47.87 percent between 1990 and 2004, over two percentage points higher than an earlier calculation, the Environment Ministry said on Monday.

The higher figure consolidated Spain's position as the worst performer among rich nations in greenhouse gas controls.

Under the Kyoto protocol to limit carbon dioxide emissions and curb global warming, Spain is allowed to increase its emissions by only 15 percent between the the base year 1990 and 2008.

The new figure is contained in a report the Spanish government is sending to the European Commission, a ministry spokeswoman said.

It is higher than the previous one in part because of the impact of a drought, which reduced power companies' hydroelectric generating capacity and forced them to use more fossil fuels.

The 2004/2005 hydrological year was the driest on record.

Based on 2003 emissions, Spain was already the worst performer among developed nations with a 41.7 percent increase on 1990, compared with a fall of 1.4 percent for the European Union as a whole.

http://www.ccchina.gov.cn/en/NewsInfo.asp?NewsId=4977

If France cuts off electricity exports to Spain, the lights go out, period.

You see this graph?

http://indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=sp&v=83

If France refuses to ship water to Spain, the faucets go dry.

2005 was a record setting year for dangerous fossil fuel waste dumping in Spain.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/international/iealf/tableh1co2.xls

There is always someone around making a bullshit claim that things are different in the last 10 minutes, but the fact is that Spain is, again, a natural gas hell hole.

Moreover there is no plan in Spain to phase out dangerous fossil fuel use, dangerous fossil fuel waste dumping or any other dangerous fossil fuel practices:

http://carma.org/region/detail/176

It would appear from this data that Spain plans to increase its dependence on dangerous fossil fuels.

[Fledermaus]

18. Really, you think so?

Gosh, if you can type it, it must be true...well whatever
:nopity:

[PATRICK]

17. This is the company

that just bought out part of our local(RG&E) energy company, the future alternative energy part I think. progress: our most important outsourced product.

[madokie]

23. We have a pumped storage lake here

and GRDA, the owners, says it is one of the best ideas they ever had for balancing out the load on their coal and hydro power plants, in effect helping to keep the cost of electricity to me, us, lower. Its also an excellent fishery that provides many hours of relaxation for some and many meals for others. I see no downsides to pumped storage and it should be incorporated where ever it can, in a way we're all connected and in the same boat.