US job outsourcing on rise

[OhioChick]

Updated: 10-30-2006

New Delhi: US engineering jobs that are being 'offshored' to countries like India and China, is 'gaining momentum', according to a recent study, made by the Durham, NC-based Duke University's Pratt School of Engineering Research.

The study titled 'Industry Trends in Engineering Offshoring', challenges the often-accepted view that China and India 'graduate 12 times the number of engineers as the US.

Until recently, the most commonly cited statistics were that the US graduates 70,000 engineers a year versus 600,000 in China and 350,000 in India.

It said that a more realistic comparison of total bachelors and sub-baccalaureate engineering, computer science and information technologies for 2004 was 222,335 (in the US), 644,106 (in China) and 215,000 (in India).

http://www.andhracafe.com/index.php?m=show&id=11747

[Deja Q]

1. Well, they have 12+ times the combined population!

And it costs less to get education, equipment, and fuel over there!

And the last time I checked, they don't like the US or its politicians!

It's rather like teaching one's 8 year old Dennis-the-Menace-type nephew how to use the spigot on the water hose, and realizing too late he's just turned the nozzle on you and turned the spigot to full... oops.

[Vinca]

2. On the surface you might think it's shameful the U.S. isn't

educating enough engineers. In reality, why bother? The jobs are being outsourced anyway for a fraction of what U.S. salaries would be. Why should a student rack of tens of thousands of dollars in debt studying engineering for a job at McDonald's? This is nuts.

[Deja Q]

3. Bingo.

Being in debt is NOT fun.

Maybe if the American corporate elite altered the price of goods (and wages) to match what they are in China and India, in other words make globalization fair and balanced across the board, would more Americans go back for education. (but they won't, right now the imbalance still gives them extra profits. However, eventually enough Americans won't be able to buy those items at their inflated prices, which means the whole thing is going to deflate. I presume things will get better for us all that THAT point. :shrug: )

[OhioChick]

4. Both of you

are 100% correct.

[Lasher]

11. Well, things will get better in a way.

In this particular scenario what's going on is the equalization of worldwide engineering salaries, to a degree. Workers in China and India are having their living standards raised somewhat, while those of American engineers are having theirs lowered. When faced with the prospect of working for an equivalent of salaries paid abroad, American engineers will seek other forms of employment. As US workers have less and less to spend even McJobs will become scarce. The richest 10% will get even richer but there's just so many In-N-Out burgers they can eat.

This reminds me of a sign on the door of a nearby classroom where computer and IP networking skills are taught: "Will write HTML code for food."

And here's how things will get better: At that point uppity American engineers will come to their senses and realize it's perfectly acceptable to eat 3 bowls of rice a day and live in a box. That's when the engineering jobs will come back to the USA because the Chinese and Indians are already starting to believe they're entitled to 4 bowls of rice a day and a tarpaper shack.

But by that time there will be few engineering jobs to bring back. The American middle class consumers are still what's driving our economy. Once they are driven into poverty there really won't be much left to engineer.

Welcome to the brave new world of 'free' trade.

[LosinIt]

5. So you're saying our children should just skate by and stay ignorant?

I think you were just playing the devil's advocate, but that does beg the question. If our kids can't find a job after busting their asses getting up at the asscrack of dawn and schlepping off to an 8AM (Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Biochemistry, A&P, whatever insert your favorite here) Lab for 4 years, while the Criminal Justice majors sleep soundly carrying 15 credits a semester, why bother? The science curricula are not for the faint of heart. Admittedly, most people who attempt them, have a love of science, so it's not a hardship. But, to put that much into your education and then see your job be shipped off to Mumbai is pretty damn disheartening.

[Vinca]

6. That's not what I'm saying.

What I AM saying is until outsourcing is reined in and trade policies are changed, it's rough, rough sledding for some professions. When x-rays are outsourced to India, something is terribly wrong. I'm certainly not discouraging anyone from getting a good education, but the way things are now, you have to be very smart about what your end goal is and how you are going to finance it. I bet everyone knows a person with advanced degrees who chucked it all to become a chef or plumber or other hands-on occupation that can't be outsourced.

[Katzenjammer]

8. "a hands-on occupation that can't be outsourced"

They can't be outsourced to another country, but they can be automated or done with imported labor which comes to the same thing in the end. I can't think of any job that's immune from degradation.

[Vinca]

10. All I know is the aging plumber we used to hire for repairs

wanted to pass his business along to an apprentice, but couldn't find one. If I had been younger, considering what the guy charged, I might have signed up. My main point is, you have to give a good deal of thought to what you hope to do and how to get there. It's not like days gone by when a kid could head off to college to "find himself." Money's not available for finding oneself unless you happen to be rich. You do make a good point about imported labor, though, and I don't have a solution beyond becoming self-employed in some fashion and offering a unique and specialized service or product that the run-of-the-mill worker can't produce.

[nodular]

21. "You do make a good point about imported labor, though"

So, do you support the Comprehensive Immigration bill? That bill would considerably increase the amount of imported labor and exacerbate the problems described in this discussion. It passed the Senate but was blocked by the House. If such a bill reaches Bush, he will sign it.

[brokensymmetry]

7. With an MSc in CS...

I will tell you that a science education is a bad decision.

I started out, years ago, with a BSc in Engineering. Yes, it
got me a job easily enough - and it became obsolete. So, after
some years, I got the MSc. Computer Science was all the rage,
and the powers that be swore we would always have a vast demand
for skilled people.

Bottom line, they lied. Some of the new graduates with BSc degrees
in computer science now get the "opportunity" to do customer service
at ISPs that specialize in porn sites. Now there's a career. Jobs
in CS are becoming rarer, and the pay isn't keeping up. Gee, does
anyone suppose that could be due to outsourcing? :sarcasm:

The top 0.1% love to tell the proles to get a science education, as
the guaranteed ticket to the good life. Notice their sons and daughters
don't get such degrees. Notice that the top 0.1% lie about lots of
things. So we think they tell the truth on this one item? Ha! (that's
a bitter laugh, BTW).

No, I would not advise anyone to get a technical degree. Let industry
outsource everything - they will anyway.

[Lithos]

9. Agreed

It's a waste to learn specific technical skills. Technical skills, ie hard skills, are usually something that can be sent off shore. What is important are the soft skills which are not so easily off-shored. Business, marketing, finance, etc.

L-

[Demeter]

13. That's Not Any Skill I Want To Know

If I wanted to be a bullshit artist, I would belong to the GOP.

Those "soft" skills mean nothing unless you're the boss' son or maybe daughter. The abuse of human capital in this country is criminal, and the root of all the problems we face, from the fraud and theft to the social unrest and the deficit.

This society needs to get its head on straight, tout de suite.

[Nikia]

18. My cousins (brother and sister) are BS Business graduates

After graduation, both cousins landed jobs doing clerical work at the local hospital. Their spouses are both medical professionals who got better jobs elsewhere. My male cousin is struggling to find anything while my female cousin is a check out clerk at a Walgreens. My former boss pointed out to me that his son's best friend who was also a business graduate is stocking shelves at K Mart. I'm a little skeptical about the idea that being a business major will guarentee a good job.
As for me, I got a decent job in the food industry, which is still prospering in the U.S. I am confident that food companies will always be in the U.S. It makes sense.

[CrispyQ]

12. I spent two years pursuing a couple of technical certifications.

Got them just when the dot com was crashing in '01. Then 9/11 happened. I went back to work in my previous occupation, executive assistant, making more than I could make as a newbie programmer. :eyes: While I enjoyed the class work & I think programming is fun, to end up back where I was, I would have equally enjoyed reading science fiction!

[brokensymmetry]

14. Smart move.

You'll also have more job security and
transferable skills.

[AnneD]

19. I know what you mean.....

I received an Associates degree in Nursing after I was cut from the oil biz (I had almost completed my BS in bio/chem). It was the quick and dirty means to keep body and soul together. I was told that to make more I should get a BAN. Frankly, it would only be a 50 cent an hour difference for what is basically a few management and theory courses. And for what-a profession that doesn't value eduction or the workers. They are hell bent on outsourcing us now as it is. I'll be damned if I'll waste anymore of my money on that. I need to feed and cloth my family and try to get my retirement plan further along. If I take ANY more education courses, it will be leisure learning. I am trying to talk sense into my 16 yo. Why should you pay a bloody fortune in education if you can't support yourself with it. Our values are so f/u now.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Greyhound]

16. Just wanted to point out that, not only do we have to "compete" with

the engineers, scientists, etc., of these countries for a fraction of the wage, they get their education for free. We are the only nation in this struggle that places the burden of debt on our students.

So we graduate with $20,000 - $100,000 of debt in addition to having to work for their wages, just to have a job.

[cap]

17. plus you will only have that job during your 20's and 30's

after 40 the job market gets much harder; and after 50 the job market is nonexistent.

Let's see... spend a few years after graduation in mom's basement 'cause you cant find a job. Then you find something; have enough years to pay off student loan and then have kids and buy a house and end up in your late 40's/50's with no job. Compared to other fields where you have much less volatility and no one is asking you to work 16 hours per day.

[fasttense]

23. And they get their medical for free.

[Indy Lurker]

20. Over the Road Truck Drivers

Over the Road Truck Drivers are in high demand.

It only takes a few weeks to get youir CDL.

[medium ripe banana]

22. Recession and depression resistant career

Become a funeral director. Guaranteed business. It's morbid, I know, and my first post. Hopefully, I'll have something more positive to offer in the future.

[Dover]

25. lol! Welcome to DU. Try to avoid being tombstoned...

Yes, that's where 'bad' and 'dead' DUers go. To the boneyard.
Perhaps volunteering to be a moderator at DU will provide you more security.
Like funeral directors, there's always someone to bury.

And then there's all those Homeland Security jobs.
Cops, soldiers and nurses seem to also be in demand. Hmmmm....

[Nay]

24. Union apprenticeship programs for electricians, plumbers, etc., are

still looking for people. My son is about to graduate from a 4-year program, and he says it is tough to find apprentices because too many people don't want to get dirty at work!!! As my son says,

"Gee, Ma, I can always take a shower when I get home!"

And there's the rub. Everybody wants a clean desk job. They don't like dirt, bugs, being outside in the weather, etc. Spoiled and/or lazy, in other words.

The only fear I have about these jobs is the possibility of foreign workers being imported for THOSE jobs, too.

As for trucking, there are few years left in that one--look at the deal they are making with Mexico with that Transamerica highway to use Mexican truckers all the way to Canada.

The only solution is to stop outsourcing, severely limit H1B visas, and limit immigration. But that will never be done.

[bighughdiehl]

26. Jesus Christ......

I thought this outsourcing shit might actually slow down because without good-paying jobs, no one can afford to buy the shit they sell anymore.

Must be one of three things going on:

Consumer credit still not all tapped out.

or

Outsourcing really not that bad.

or

They have adequate new markets in Asia where the new middle-class there buys their shit. Which means there is no use for the American Proletariat to have disposable income. God help us all.