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RaRa Donating Member (705 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 09:16 AM
Original message
Good links please
Anyone have some good links - I would like to discredit someone using the weeklystandard.com - countering that site's use of CIA reports confirming Al Qaeda links with Sadaam. Aside from the WH disredting themselves that claim (actually, I'd love that one too - was it Perle or Wolfowitz? saw a link with that on DU too).
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
1. Links saying GOP liars re weeklystandard.com's links of Saddam/Al Queda
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A46460-2003Nov15?language=pri...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A54452-2003Nov17?language=pri...

http://www.msnbc.com/news/995706.asp?0cv=KB10

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/20/politics/20MEMO.html?pagewanted=prin...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A63538-2003Nov19.html

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/001763.php


http://slate.msn.com/id/2092180 /

The Case of the Misunderstood Memo
The Feith "annex" highlights the Bush administration's misuse of intelligence material.

ALSO:
The only intelligence “product” of this office that has surfaced thus far is an assessment of previous intelligence reports about links between Iraq and al Qaeda. The substance of that product, originally a Power Point briefing, was contained in a Defense Department memo leaked to the Weekly Standard’s Stephen F. Hayes last winter. Hayes reported that Under Secretary of Defense Douglas J. Feith sent the memo to the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence in October 2003. It documented references to contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda as published in intelligence reports dating back to the first Gulf War.

Writing in Sunday’s Washington Post, Dana Priest reported that the briefing was the product of two analysts working inside the “Policy Counterterrorism Evaluation Group” set up shortly after 9/11. The two-person effort to review past intelligence reporting on such contact wrapped up sometime in mid-2002. Shortly thereafter, their briefing became a “traveling road show.” Secretary Rumsfeld has recalled that his staff recommended the briefing to him; he says that two people briefed him and he then sent them over to see Tenet.

In his Senate testimony, Tenet told Levin that he had spent about 15 minutes with the two and then turned them over to his own analysts. Priest interviewed CIA officials who were present at Tenet’s August 2002 briefing at CIA Headquarters. She reports they were “nonplussed” by what they heard. One told her the agency “had discounted already” much of the substance of the Pentagon’s briefing. But there is no indication that Tenet or any of his staff registered objections with Rumsfeld or the Pentagon. Feith then sent the two to the White House where they briefed deputies in the National Security Council and the Office of the Vice President. Priest reports that the briefing contents never made it to the NSC Advisor, the Vice President, or the President.

Priest also reports that congressional investigators “from both parties” have yet to turn up any evidence that this group collected its own intelligence or that this analysis “significantly shaped the case the administration made for going to war.” So what’s going on here? In an on-line chat hosted by the Post, she wrote, “it just doesn’t seem to be the big deal many people are making it into.” House Intelligence Committee Chairman Porter Goss labeled Levin and Senator Ted Kennedy’s performance at the hearing “bad theater” and likened them to “two old attack dogs gumming their way through artificial outrage about something they should know a lot more about and be more responsible about.”



This one looks good too: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F30912FF34550C7A8CDDA80...

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0109-01.htm
THE STRUGGLE FOR IRAQ: DIPLOMACY; Powell Admits No Hard Proof In Linking Iraq to Al Qaeda

ABSTRACT - Secretary of State Colin L Powell concedes that despite his assertions to United Nations last year, he has no 'smoking gun' proof of link between government of Iraqi Pres Saddam Hussein and terrorists of Al Qaeda; says he thinks possibility of such connections did exist, and it was prudent to consider them at that time; his remarks are stark admission that there is no definitive evidence to back administration statements and insinuations that Hussein had ties to Al Qaeda; impression of such a link in public mind has become widely accepted--and something administration officials have done little to discourage


http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3540586/

Nov. 19 - A leaked Defense Department memo claiming new evidence of an “operational relationship” between Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein’s former regime is mostly based on unverified claims that were first advanced by some top Bush administration officials more than a year ago—and were largely discounted at the time by the U.S. intelligence community, according to current and former U.S. intelligence officials.

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RaRa Donating Member (705 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Thanks alot, papau
While I should get this stuff myself, I know there are folks like you who seem to have this info at your fingertips. So, I try instead to sway the ignorant masses one "sheeple" at a time. Thanks again.
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reprehensor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
2. The Weakly Standard is PNAC - Neocon Propaganda.
So there.

The Wall Street Journal is no better.
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. OK, here's the problem with taking the "it's neocon propaganda" tack
While the assertion itself may be true, you are essentially "poisoning the well" without addressing the content of the article itself. Simply because a publication leans 90% or even 99% to a particular editorial viewpoint is no guarantee that there won't be an occasional unbiased reporting of facts.

For instance, The Wall Street Journal has quality news pages -- it's investor-class readership demands no less. They might be making investment decisions based on what they read in the paper that morning. Were its news proven to be pure neocon fantasy, the paper would lose long-time readers and underwriters. The really obvious bias occurs on the editorial pages, where the investors expect to have their materialistic world view upheld unquestioningly.

So when arguing against the Weekly Standard article, give it some credit where credit's due: VP Cheney wants the republican loyalists reading that paper, and especially that article. That means when you attack it, you're attacking the credibility of the administration. You'd better have something more substantial than "it's propaganda so there" ready to go.

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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
4. Funny thing -- I had just the same query yesterday
Edited on Tue Apr-27-04 11:33 AM by 0rganism
I'll see if I can dig up the link to my thread in GD. You might find some of it useful.
edit: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1475811&mesg_id=1475811

The DoD press release is especially funny -- "we don't vouch for the accuracy of these reports and we're kind of pissed that they were leaked at all," essentially. Indeed, some of the articles available mention various sections of the intelligence community (CIA, DIA, et al) petitioning for an inquiry regarding the leak.

Basically, Feith's "Office of Special Plans" cherry-picked intelligence reports (some more reliable than others) to make the case for the invasion to bush, however the hell he could. Not even the whorish mainstream media was able to cover "the Feith memo" with a straight face.
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ContraMedia Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
6. Discredit These
Edited on Tue Apr-27-04 03:11 PM by ContraMedia
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Easy: they're completely non-sequiter
The query that began this thread regards the alleged link between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda. Articles concerning the general inhumanity of Saddam Hussein's Ba'ath regime are not relevant to the topic. Nor were they a primary justification for invading Iraq in the first place.

Given that the bush regime is about to install John Negroponte, infamous for his "blind eye" to human rights abuses by death squads in '80s Honduras, as ambassador to Iraq, I have zero confidence that the next few years will see any improvement over Saddam's tenure.
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ContraMedia Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. A Question
Do you believe that Saddam Hussein should have been left in power?
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. It's an interesting question, but thoroughly off-topic
Edited on Wed Apr-28-04 07:03 PM by 0rganism
Even though you phrased it as passive-tense, it's well worth serious discussion. But we have to put it in context, to do so without indulging false dichotomies.

See, you posted several articles which present honest-to-goodness real-life humanitarian reasons to overthrow Saddam Hussein's totalitarian regime. But instead of referring to those documents in supporting an invasion of Iraq, the bush administration saw fit to roll out mountains of false and misleading allegations to "make the case for war". Only post-invasion, now that the WMDs are proving to be just as gone as the UN inspectors said they were, and the bogus linking of Ba'athists with Al Qaeda has been shown to be so much bullshit, is the administration resorting to humanitarian justifications for its actions.

We knew for decades about the murderous crap that was going down in Iraq, Saddam's role as a bloody dictator is well-documented, and all this was allowed to happen -- even encouraged by Reagan and Bush Sr. Why did these atrocities suddenly start to matter in 2003?

The simple answer is that they didn't: human rights violations are seldom taken as a sufficient justification for unilateral action. If we were really concerned about human rights violations, we wouldn't have propped up regimes like Somoza's and Batista's and D'Aubisson's and, yes, Saddam Hussein's. Right now, there are numerous regimes committing serious humanitarian offenses, some of which are well known to have WMDs, which are permitted to continue as usual; if humanitarian interventions against countries were our hallmark, we wouldn't be selling weaponry to Israel. American foreign policy has been driven by profitability since its inception; as long as Saddam was useful as a point of regional stability, his regime was tolerated. After all, it had been crippled after Ambassador Glaspie invited Saddam Hussein to invade Kuwait -- had our government so desired, we would have supported the Shi'ite and Kurdish uprisings during Gulf War 1 and taken Saddam down then and there.

Instead, we LET Saddam put down the insurgencies with his Republican Guard and evolved a sanctions regime in the name of "containment".

No one makes the case for this better than Bush Sr. himself. He points out that Saddam Hussein, for all his flaws, was preventing a three-way civil war and a genocidal invasion by Turkey. Now Saddam is gone, and we've inherited those problems in full. The administration went into this process without a sound plan, apparently believing its own propaganda, and now we're starting to reap a whirlwind.

So your question is if I believe Saddam Hussein should have been left in power. I don't -- but then, I don't believe we should have put him in power in the first place. I also think it's becoming abundantly clear, even to some rightwing imperialists, that a unilateral invasion and occupation by the United States military was not the best way to accomplish his removal. And the administration's abundant lying to the American people in order to trigger this suboptimal, ill-planned invasion is a grievous crime that places our national credibility in jeopardy.

Ideally, we would have let the Iraqi peoples depose him themselves. Then, the UN could have intervened to mitigate their civil war and assisted in the formation of a legitimate parliamentary demo/theocracy suitable to the region. In no way should the bush administration have "gone it alone" and marched into Iraq with only token support from a handful of bribed non-regional allies, let alone lied to the people of the USA -- and, indeed, the world -- to do so. Now that we're there, we face the other half of the question you asked: "what would be an adequate, feasible replacement for the Ba'ath regime?"

As before, the answer is non-trivial. I suggest you ask your congressman what his plan is.
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LeftCoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Well-said Organism!
:yourock:

Excellent post!
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Thanks -- this really deserves a separate thread in GD or FP, tho
Edited on Wed Apr-28-04 08:08 PM by 0rganism
It's a complex ethical issue.
edit: started a poll thread in GD to ask this question

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1491138
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ContraMedia Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. Let's Bring In The British On This Issue
http://www.fco.gov.uk/Files/kfile/hrdossier.pdf


The liberation of Iraq by the Bush/Blair Coalition was not the best way to overthrow the Ba'athists.

It was the only way.
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ContraMedia Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. About Those WMDs
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Congratulations, ContraMedia
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 02:18 AM
Response to Original message
13. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
LeftCoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Not a good link.
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