wes clark: let them do the software in india

[dfong63]

that does it for me. the general is unqualified to be in politics. he should shut up and stick to stuff he knows something about, like bombing embassies and tv stations. if the dems nominate this poser, i'm staying home on election day.

transcript of nov 24 debate

``...
BROKAW: If you canceled NAFTA and WTO, I don't think it'll
address a concern that Andy Grove, who is one of the founding
geniuses that Silicon Valley, has, which is that he says by the
year 2010, General Clark, in India, they'll have more people
working in software and software services than we will have in
this country. And he sees no evidence in either party of a public
policy to address that critical component of our economic future.

CLARK: Well, I'm very concerned about exactly what Andy Grove has
said, and canceling NAFTA and WTO will not solve the problem.

We have to have the right policies to create jobs in America, and
to have companies that are hiring in this country stay in this
country and not outsource.

{... snipped to comply with 5-para rule ...}

CLARK: We want to be ahead of the software revolution. Let them
do the software in India; we'll do other things in this country.

We can do that. All it takes is leadership.
...''

[Racenut20]

1. You miss his point and are either just being disgruntled OR

A Republican in disguise

[billbuckhead]

5. You got to pick your battles & the horse is already out the barndoor

on this one.

[wakfs]

11. No!

The horse is NEVER too far out the barndoor for it to change its direction.

This is a very serious issue. It won't be one in 2004 but I'll bet ya' in election years to come it will be a HUGE issue.

Without jobs, Americans cannot buy useless products. If Americans don't buy useless products, the corporatists won't get wealthier. If the corporatists don't get wealthier, they will change the direction of this horse.

[dfong63]

7. you accuse me of missing his point, yet you "forgot" to say what it was

... how convenient.

[coralrf]

20. The point:

Software is out. America needs to lead.

[dfong63]

32. if america can't lead in software, then why

... why does Clark think America will be able to lead in any other industry?

[OrAnarch]

35. software is out?

Huh?!? Software will never be out! As an self(un)employed software engineer, I do not take this lightly. Such a proposition shows both extreme ignorance in this field and a lack of liberal thought. Between this and the anti-reregulation views, Clark is definately not an option in my book. Most definately not.

Software being out? Let me tell you, if programming (manipulating processing with binary code) is old school, what is new? If such a field of infinite possibilities, growing with every newly created algorithm borne to match future problems, is out, is there anything left in this field? As long as there is not yet a self definining, infinite state automata, in the field of computer science, programming software will be in, ad infinitum. Would Clark rather have us switch to putting together circuit boards for minimum wage, or playing with the newly invented rocks and sticks? As long as human beings envolve and change, there will always need to be creative minds to develop and implement new algorithms and improve existing ones. Furthermore...and here's the kicker, as long as there are unemployed bright programmers in America, there will always be a need, from their point of view, for those type of jobs in America (and we don't tke it kindly when people like Clark don't give a shit).

If I had those faces in my sig, clark's would have a big red X over it.

[markus]

8. Hey, I'm no Republican

If a candidate stood up and suggested we needed to stop making cars in America because other people could do it cheaper, what would your re-action be.

This is my livilihood, and anybody who wants to put an end to it in the US will not get my vote in the caucus or or my support.

I'm not sure I could support this bonehead in the general against Bush unless he prompty renounces this insane statement.

I think it disqualifies him for the nomination more than anything any other candidate has said or stands for. Its just insane.

[xultar]

13. Why do you have to call him a BONEHEAD? Civility puhleez

You can say that it disqualifies him from your list as a candidate.
So you'd rather vote for BUSH if Clark gets the nom?

What Clark is saying is that we should develop better new things and let them have the small stuff.
I'm in IT as well and I don't agree at all with what he is saying. Why not let some inner city kids do the programming for a decent wage. Why send it to India.

You also didn't read his statement and comprehend it if you think that he's saying cuz they can do it cheaper. He didn't say that. HE's saying let them have the small stuff cuz we are creating new bigger stuff new more innovative industries new advanced products. (edit to make it crystal)

I disagree...but I don't have to act like a child throwing a tantrum and call him names. Save the name calling for chimpyface.

[coralrf]

28. Spin on..and on..and on

Did Clark say "we need to stop making software because others can do it cheaper?

No YOU TRIED TO DO IT FOR HIM, then lamely tried to chasten Clark for it. You trick is a classical one in communications scammery. Use a “style change “ but keep the “words parallel”. Most folks are dumb enough to fall for it. That is why it is often used on FOX and in the Oval Office.

When will this crap stop?

Read the damn article and you will see that and your buddy are clearly manipulating a line taken way way out of context.

If you want to do software do it. Take the low pay and do it. Sooner or later some conservative member of the board is going to give that job to a South Asian and there is little that you can do about it. The President of the USA cannot stop that..it is not in his power. He can warn Americans to move into cutting edge positions as the 3rd world is not near ready to take those jobs.

Hack on my man. Spin on my man. Don’t run your credit cards up to high. And certainly vote for Bush. He hates outsourcing as his record of embracing it clearly shows.

[dfong63]

51. it's not spin, it's clark's own words - you're the one trying to "spin"

[dfong63]

48. i've been a democrat longer than wes clark

[Kahuna]

2. Slow news day, eh?

:boring:

[w13rd0]

3. None of the candidates voice positions that I agree with 100%...

...and each voter must weigh that which they agree with against that which they do not agree with and come to their own conclusions. As much as I disagree with Clark on the domestic policy points he has talked about, I also applaud him for his clear and direct attacks on Bush, calling the 2000 election stolen, calling out Kerry on that Baker thing, etc...

If I were less concerned with domestic policy, he'd likely be one of my choices for top of the ticket. You do realize this statement has been brought up quite a few times, don't you?

[dfong63]

4. i did a search and didn't find it

[xultar]

6. Thanks so much for being fair...

:loveya:

I cringed when he said it as well. He's talking about my industry. I'm IT. I understand what he's saying but...I don't agree nor do I like it. However, Clark still has my support!

[dfong63]

25. tell me about "fair" when your unemployment benefits run out

I cringed when he said it as well. He's talking about my industry. I'm IT. I understand what he's saying but...I don't agree nor do I like it. However, Clark still has my support!

hm isn't that a bit like the proverbial chicken who voted for Col. Sanders?

[mikehiggins]

9. You're right. Its much better if he lies to us.

Damn amatuer politicians don't know how to tell good enough lies. Every so often they tell the truth. SOrt of like Howard Dean when he says a politician who claims to have all the answers is a liar.

Dean and Clark try their best to tell the voters what they think and consider important AND doable. Is there anyone out there with a concrete plan that can keep Microsoft from farming out the next iteration of Office?

Make it illegal? That'd be good for a laugh at the board meeting.

The internet has destroyed the old borders, and a programmer in India is just as good as a programmer in the U.S., except cheaper.

The IT guys weren't interested in this problem when it was textile workers and steel workers who were hitting the bricks after having their jobs outsourced. What makes them think they're going to have any better luck in stemming the tide?

Clark told you what he thinks, and what direction he thinks holds promise. That's promise, not guarantees.

Life is complicated, sez the general. Didn't you get the memo?

So he won't lie to you and that's a reason NOT to vote for him.

Maybe you should stay home on Election day. That way we don't have to worry about you accidentally pulling down the lever for Pandermaster George Booth.

[dfong63]

17. or maybe Clark should be running for president of India instead

[xultar]

34. Re read what he said...you missed the point...we are going to

create NEW more ADVANCED industries, new bigger scientific breakthroughs what is wrong with letting 3rd world people have the crumbs.

Re read it and be objective...give it a try!

:loveya:

[dfong63]

41. they get the "crumbs", while we get the pie in the sky

[Jerseycoa]

10. Why not change the topic title?

"Issues: Global Economy's Effect on American IT Jobs"

Then take out the editorial:

"that does it for me. the general is unqualified to be in politics. he should shut up and stick to stuff he knows something about, like bombing embassies and tv stations. if the dems nominate this poser, i'm staying home on election day."

And replace it with:

"Where does your candidate stand on this issue? Please defend his or her position."

That way, instead of boring old flame bait, we can have an actual grownup discussion, learn something new or confirm what we already know.

Just a suggestion.

[dfong63]

18. i quoted Clark accurately - it's not my job to cover up his gaffes

[GRocky]

Vote for Clark in 2004.

Unless the quality of offshore code improves 10-fold, I don't have any reason to be afraid.

[Pale_Rider]

29. Very much true ...

... quality of offshore code isn't as high as it should be. Too many cultural differences between US and offshore coders.

[BootinUp]

12. Honesty and also a sound economic platform..

whats the problem seriously.

If anyone thinks they can stop globalization of software at this point then their smokin crack or something else potent. Maybe if you pulled the plug on the whole Internet now, you could slow it down.

I admit Clark brought up an issue that hurts many people, and this may have been unwise, but to borrow and old saying: Don't shoot the messenger.

If anyone thinks this one line taken out of context, in any way encompasses or describes Clark's domestic policy then you haven't been paying attention. He does intend to slow down outsourcing by American companies and that will include software companies and other computer industry jobs.

[AndyTiedye]

16. I Prefer The Clinton Way

Grow the Economy so that we can employ all the programmers we can get in the US and India.
Like it was before the Bushidas took over.

[BootinUp]

23. So do I

Andy,

Recent trends in outsourcing show that some modifications are needed to address the problem. Fact is Clark's economic platform is so similar to Clinton's they are hard to tell apart.

If you haven't done so check Clark's issues page:

www.clark04.com/issues

[dfong63]

44. what Clark said is not "truth", it's a political platform

... and if his political platform is writing off the s/w industry, then he's not a candidate i can vote for.

[mikehiggins]

53. Then what's your solution, dfong63?

Lay out your plan to keep IT jobs in the USA.

If its workable, I'm sure all the candidates will sign on and go for it.

Let's hear what can be done, in your own words.

[dfong63]

57. like Clark said, "it takes leadership"

it takes leadership.

that means having leaders who are willing to fight to keep these jobs here in the US. leaders who are willing to invest the time and energy to understand the issue, instead of shooting off their mouths with inane crap like "Let India do the software." leaders who will craft programs of incentives and disincentives, who will go to the mat, who'll play hardball to protect American jobs. not ones who blithely say it's too late and we might as well give up, and "oh too bad" about the millions who will lose their jobs.

i don't have to be a master strategist to tell you that a general who advocates surrendering is not one i want to be in command.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[coralrf]

15. What a sorry attempt at spin...

This "does not do it for you"..you are just spinning in hopes that it will "do it for us".

CLARK: We want to be ahead of the software revolution. Let them
do the software in India; we'll do other things in this country.

Read it, don’t spin it. His point is that software is a glutted and old economy item. He says "we want to be ahead of the software revolution" and anyone free from bias against the man can see that what he is saying is software is soon to be a low paying hack job. Clark is not saying what you are implying.

Some things that "you had to snip" in order to comply with DU Rules.

CLARK:When I am president, the first thing I will have is $100 billion job creation program.

I know you wanted to include that but DU would not let you...right?

CLARK:We'll take away any incentives for companies that want to outsource or leave the country

DU why would you not let this guy post that? You made his post look like a stealth anti-Clark post when all he was really doing is showing that Dean (who else?) is the better guy. Karl Rove thinks so too.

Spin spin spin. This is old news and a "re post" . If you look at your calendar you will see that you are to post it again in 10 days..try a new angle.

[Pale_Rider]

27. Some good spots on critical omissions. n/t

[dfong63]

45. Clark is damned by his own words

... which i not only quoted, but gave a link to the full text of.

[TheDonkey]

19. I like what Clark had to say

I've been bouncing between Clark and Kerry lately.
I'm very happy to see Clark pick up the subjects that made me like Kerry which are American modernization and energy independence.

It is time that America returns to inventing new tools for the world than trying to cuddle up to over-expensive, highly outdated industries.

[elfin]

21. Which he followed up with....

We can and should use our smarts to start the next new big growth area - new technologies for energy - paraphrasing here.

(Historically, USA has typically been the leader in new industries and ways to do things - then other countries get in on the act - we move on to the next new thing, leading the world.

Software to India wouldn't be that much of a problem IF we had an administration that invested in new techs like we used to do for the IT/Internet area.

Yes, that is a big "IF", but listeners needed to hear "the rest of the story."

With progressive dems back in power, the next "wave" of exciting new growth is possible using our supremely talented tech base- but not with the current fossil fuel addicted bunch who refuse to switch the "on" button for the future.)

[Larkspur]

37. And what's Clark's grand plan to retrain IT professionals in his

new technologies scheme?

Remember, many from manufacturing jobs got retrained in new jobs, like IT, only to find IT going the way of their old manufacturing jobs, so these folks are going to be more frustrated and pissed than those of us who started in IT at the beginning of our careers.

[jmaier]

43. Does Dean have any jobs position -- other than we need more?

I hate these candidate bashing flame wars. Clark has an excellent position but sorta misspoke at the end. All the candidates do this from time to time. For God's sake, they have to talk and answer questions 24/7.

Can we say "confederate flags". Need to keep pressure on "the Soviet Union". Give all of these poor people a break.

[Meritaten1]

22. Clark will revitalize our economy, not export jobs

Check out the interview available now on CSPAN from his speech yesterday(http://www.cspan.org). He's got concrete plans to revitalize manufacturing, generate jobs and tackle this horrendous Bush deficit. He also isn't afraid to discuss specific budget numbers.

[OhioStateProgressive]

24. this is irrelevant, since all software should be free open source

it is the future, and people will stop buying software, they already have in large part

software businesses use, they should pay for...otherwise, programs should be from open code and freely downloadable...any other way is profiteering

[dfong63]

30. it is not irrelevant, even with "free" software

this is irrelevant, since all software should be free open source it is the future, and people will stop buying software, they already have in large part

software businesses use, they should pay for...otherwise, programs should be from open code and freely downloadable...any other way is profiteering

there are many inconsistencies in your statement. writing software is much like other kinds of writing or publishing. do you think all books, magazines, newspapers, etc, should be free, along with all music, movies, videos, sports performances? and that the people who do this work should do it for free? after all, anything else is "profiteering", right?

[OhioStateProgressive]

39. to some degree, yes

i know it ruffles feathers to say it, but we shouldn't be praying to the new god of money every chance we get as a society

there should be an outlet for free services in this country, and it should be a large outlet, not just assistance for poor people...the economic models we use are about wealth generation, and not guaranteeing equality

we need to meet ALL needs of people before we worry about letting some get rich...software is no different...when all peopels have had fair chance to get the free software available, then the "for-profit" software can be bought by those that insist on it...and it doesn't matter where it is made, who creates it...we aren't building bridges and buildings out of software...these are the jobs that need protected

another thing is this massive goal to be 100% technology, all the time....as we build more toys to pacify, for mindless souls to buy, we are slowly "Amusing ourselves to death"

values, not Value....


"what is the heart life of a color tv?...what is the shelflife of a teenage queen?"

[dfong63]

42. that's a great platform you got there - i'd like to see Clark run on it

[OhioStateProgressive]

46. being correct is usually rough(nt)

[mikehiggins]

55. Oh my GOD! You're really a Clark basher! I'm shocked!

And here I thought you really gave a rat's ass about the topic you started, but now you try to spin someone elses comments into an attack on Clark.

Try not to be so obvious next time, fong, but thanks for playing.

[Pale_Rider]

26. The current outsourcing trend is to push ...

... high-cost, low-value software development offshore to locations such as India. High value software development will stay in the US as long as there is people willing to develop their skills and experience in newer technologies. As long as technological innovation is done here, there will be jobs here.

CLARK: We want to be ahead of the software revolution.

[democratreformed]

31. Then

you were finished with him a couple of weeks ago. Why are you STILL talking about him? If you're done, that's it - end of discussion, no more, nada, zilch - goodbye. Why do you feel it is necessary to foist your views on others. That's the biggest thing that bugs me about this board. Positive opinions are ignored. Negative ones receive all the glory. I have always heard "If you don't have something good to say, don't say anything at all." Oops. Just broke that rule, didn't I?

[dfong63]

38. because

this is a discussion board.

Why are you STILL talking about him? If you're done, that's it - end of discussion, no more, nada, zilch - goodbye. Why do you feel it is necessary to foist your views on others.

i hadn't heard this until today. now that i know, i want to make sure others who would be affected also know. if you don't like hearing other people's views, then why are you logged in to a "discussion" forum.

I have always heard "If you don't have something good to say, don't say anything at all."

your boy Clark doesn't follow that rule, does he? so why do you pretend it has any validity or relevance? it sounds like something Karl Rove would come up with.

[reprehensor]

33. He'll make a fine Vice President.

He'll do enough damage there.

[xultar]

36. Awww...you're 2 kute! n/t

[damnraddem]

40. He should not be the candidate.

But he can be useful as the VP candidate.

[hlthe2b]

47. Ho, Hum.....

Candidate X (fill in name) makes 100 statements that seem consistent with our general beliefs. Today, Candidate X (fill in name) says one thing that we can not agree with.

For God's sake, man, "Get a Rope!" :evilgrin:


I think the above is going to be my mantra until the primaries are over. Unless of course, we all ultimately decide to redirect our annoyances and wrath at the Repugs, as we would certainly do if we WANTED to win!

[dfong63]

49. all statements are not equal

Candidate X (fill in name) makes 100 statements that seem consistent with our general beliefs. Today, Candidate X (fill in name) says one thing that we can not agree with.

Clark may have said 100 fine things, but when he says he's writing off my job and my industry, that one thing more than cancels them out. 100 fine points sound awfully thin when your unemployment benefits have run out. my number one issue is jobs and the economy. Clark has no experience in politics, in creating jobs, running an economy, running a campaign, or getting elected. and it shows. Clark is a political neophyte, a narcissistic dilettante who is no more qualified than Al Sharpton and has no business running for the nation's highest office.

[hlthe2b]

54. I'm sorry you lost your job.... I do blame Bush's policies for

this and for the other millions (including myself) that are now unemployed. When we spend every cent of our current and future on preemptive wars, under the auspices of a former governor who supposedly HAD "experience in politics, creating jobs, running an economy and campaign" (yeah, I know a sham)....this is what happens.

Balanced against this, I'll take a "neophyte" who is NOT inherently narcissistic, greedy, stupid, insincere, and surrounded by truly evil sycophants. Whether that is Dean, Clark, or someone else, I'll be there fighting like hell. And, if he makes one decision that I don't agree with, or which seems at my detriment, I'm going to try to look at the big picture-- how this may make sense-- how this may ultimately be the best course for all.

[Toronto Ron]

50. I'm a Clark-supporting software engineer

More "generally" (I know, argh...), Clark will be good for science & technology. He is a bit of a science afficionado (like Gore, but more so), and has spoken about investing in sci & tech. He realizes these are key for the future economy. He really gets this angle.

[dfong63]

56. brilliant. so which candidates are AGAINST investing in sci & tech?

Clark will be good for science & technology. He is a bit of a science afficionado (like Gore, but more so), and has spoken about investing in sci & tech. He realizes these are key for the future economy. He really gets this angle.

it's easy to be in favor of sci & tech. but if he thinks you can do sci & tech without software, he's ignorant. or if he thinks "letting India do the software" is a good idea, he's deeply ignorant.

[Toronto Ron]

58. Sure, nobody's against investing in sci & tech

But Clark seems to talk about it - with genuine ardor - more than the others.

What makes you say he thinks sci & tech can be done w/o software?

You're reading WAY too much into his words, but others have noted that already.

Which candidate do you favor, who will bring back software dev jobs from India?

[ajacobson]

52. Honest question

Here's a question, I am totally serious in asking this and it is not to slam intentionally or unintentionally (we have to use disclaimers these days).

How much impact does _any_ Administration's trade policy have on this issue? Or are we debating whether the future Dem Admin should set up trade barriers to protect the domestic high tech sector? Isn't high tech thoroughly globalized already?

Thanks in advance to serious responses.