DEAN assaults CIVIL LIBERTIES

[SGrande]

http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/Story/33681.html

http://www.thomhartmann.com/government.shtml

http://www.txtriangle.com/archive/1049/coverstory.htm


Gov. Howard Dean's call for a “re-evaluation” of some of America's civil liberties following this week's terrorist attacks was criticised Thursday by a Vermont Law School professor.

“Good God,” Vermont Law School Professor Michael Mello said when read the remarks Dean made at a Wednesday news conference. “It's terribly irresponsible for the leader of our state to be saying stuff like that right now.”

SNIP

Mello said Thursday, “the civil liberties Dean seems to be talking about so blithely, that's exactly what makes us different from the murderers who committed these acts.


http://www.msnbc.com/news/912159.asp?cp1=1

[demnan]

1. I think your title is somewhat misleading

as is the first article's title. The fact that Dean was talking and thinking about the best way to protect American citizens so soon after 9/11 shows that he would be a much more capable President than Bush with a 100 point IQ transplant.

The second article was pretty good too.

The interview I saw.

[SGrande]

2. He calls for an erosion of civil liberties

what is misleading about the that?

He said it, he wanted it, he should own up to it.

[Larkspur]

6. BS. Dean has never said that

He has said that he supports parts of the Patriot Act and opposes the attacks on civil liberties but if he had to choose between having the whole PA or not, he'd dump the whole PA.

What he opposes in essence and in all uses of power is the lack of accountability by those entrusted with power.

[blm]

11. Sure...now that he's swinging with the left....

but, before he started collecting liberal $$$$$ from the naive, his ACTUAL rightwing nature was more than apparent.

[SGrande]

15. exactly what Kerry said when he voted for it

:wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow:

As I have been saying: I was a Dean supporter before and I think he's a great guy and he'll make a great president, but I personally think Kerry is better, but thats beside the point.

Many posters have been acting like Howard is holier than thou and he's not, he's human and thus flawed.

I wish MANY members of the DU would just recognize that!

H-E I-S H-U-M-A-N

[demnan]

21. Of course he's flawed

he's human after all. We're all flawed!!! All I was saying is that the article title was misleading when the article itself did not back up the premis of the title.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

42. do you have the quote?

do you have the quote? I'd be very interested to see it, since Kerry and Dean are my first and second choices.

[SGrande]

48. Absolutly my friend

SNIP

Dean said Wednesday he believed that the attacks and their aftermath would “require a re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties. I think there are going to be debates about what can be said where, what can be printed where, what kind of freedom of movement people have and whether it's OK for a policeman to ask for your ID just because you're walking down the street.”

http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/Story/33681.html

[Feanorcurufinwe]

65. not that quote

not that quote

"exactly what Kerry said when he voted for it"

this one

[dajabr]

8. He called for nothing more than...

a debate and discussion of the issue:

Dean said he had not taken a position on these questions. Asked whether he meant that specific rights described in the Bill of Rights — the first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution — would have to be trimmed, the governor said:

“I haven't gotten that far yet. I think that's unlikely, but I frankly haven't gotten that far. Again, I think that's a debate that we will have.”

[blm]

13. He never does, now, does he?

For a straight talker, he's really full of dodges.

[dajabr]

14. Explain how suggesting a debate about the topic...

right after 9/11, is worse than signing the Patriot Act without reading it?

[Muddleoftheroad]

18. He's a politician

Look, I have issues with Dean and I'm not sure who the hell I support. But I found nothing bothersome in the articles. He called for a debate of the issue. That to me is intelligent and rational.

[SGrande]

22. Just like Kerry, but the difference is the Dean supporters

ARE W-A-C-K-O-S

I doubt they read the articles and info, they have this vicerol reaction to anyone BUT dean.

To me, if it was just Dean I might support him over Kerry, but its Dean supporters that have put me firmly in the Kerry camp.

[LosinIt]

30. vicerol???

I think the word you are looking for is visceral????

(I may be whacko,er I mean wacko, but I can generally spell correctly)

[SGrande]

34. My world is great its the Dean supporters

that have to offer this frothing at the mouth, chewing on the furnature reaction to anyone besides Dean.

EVERY SINGLE Dean supporter in this threat, thus far, all they can do is react with "hah" "shit" this and that, without reading the articles and bios and coming up with a decent response.

PATHETIC

[dajabr]

41. Respond to my answer in post #8 please...

or, maybe you should wait til you've calmed down a little. :shrug:

[SGrande]

44. The caps may mislead you ...Im quite calm

:hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie:

[dajabr]

49. Good, so what is your response to my answer to your claim?

n/t

[SGrande]

54. posted above :)

:)

[dajabr]

I don't see it...

Which post? Oh, and check out #45 while you're at it.

[SGrande]

62. sheesh, trying to find things in this forum is hard

give me a few :)

[dajabr]

64. You just said it was posted above...

Now you can't find it? Dog ate it, right?

[SGrande]

71. Its right here, copy and pasted

post #48

Dean said Wednesday he believed that the attacks and their aftermath would “require a re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties. I think there are going to be debates about what can be said where, what can be printed where, what kind of freedom of movement people have and whether it's OK for a policeman to ask for your ID just because you're walking down the street.”

Dean said he had not taken a position on these questions. Asked whether he meant that specific rights described in the Bill of Rights — the first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution — would have to be trimmed, the governor said

[dajabr]

73. Yes, that is the quote I refutted you on in post #8.

I guess you don't have an answer. Am I suprised?

[SGrande]

77. #76

[Ripley]

59. Oh let me guess.

I'm a WACKO and I don't know how to read.

You guys are so transparent and really bad at this undercover stuff.

"but its Dean supporters that have put me firmly in the Kerry camp."

Hmmm, now where have I heard that before?

:dunce:

[SGrande]

63. I said it about Bush supporters once

was that what you were thinking about :)

har har

j\k

All in good fun :)

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

120. Wow, finally an intelligent rebuttal

Good job :boring:

[w13rd0]

122. You just called me a "wacko"...

...you don't want a discussion, or a debate. You want a food fight. Have fun being a divisive <deleted>. I'm sure plenty will take your bait...

[SGrande]

17. He admitted to wanting to appoint judges to specifically ERODE the BOR

Perhaps this will help?

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/07/268781.shtml


In a 1997 Vt News Bureau interview, Dean admitted his desire to appoint judges willing to subvert the bill of rights. Now the fallout from Dean's appointments are before the US 2nd Circuit at Foley Square, NYC in two outrageous cases. Docket #s 03-7036, 02-6150, 02-6199, 02-6201 One case is being prosecuted by Washington, DC first amendment attorney Robert Corn-Revere against two of Dean's judges for their banishment of a Vermont "citizen-reporter" for life from all state courthouses because he criticized one of Dean's judicial appointees. The other case features Dean's judges violating Double Jeopardy, First Amendment, State law and the State constitution. See Docket No. 99-445 (Vt. Dec. 13, 2000), aff’g, Docket No. 167-1-99 WmCr (Windham D. Ct. Aug. 30, 1999) Both cases have been briefed before the Manhattan Court awaiting oral argument. Also filing a brief in federal court against Dean's appointees is the Thomas Jefferson Center For The Protection of Freedom of Expression.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

38. Bill of Rights up for debate?

see post #75

[SGrande]

106. .

[SGrande]

53. Here is the quote

http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/Story/33681.html

SNIP

Dean said Wednesday he believed that the attacks and their aftermath would “require a re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties. I think there are going to be debates about what can be said where, what can be printed where, what kind of freedom of movement people have and whether it's OK for a policeman to ask for your ID just because you're walking down the street.”

Dean said he had not taken a position on these questions. Asked whether he meant that specific rights described in the Bill of Rights — the first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution — would have to be trimmed, the governor said:

[SGrande]

76. He realized his stumbled, each of those articles

paints a perfect picture of a candidate who has a serious problem with civil liberties

"In July of 1997, Vermont governor Howard Dean announced that he wanted to appoint to the Vermont Supreme Court a justice who would consider "common sense more important than legal technicalities" and "quickly convict guilty criminals."
http://www.thomhartmann.com/government.shtml


"So I just—life without parole, which we have which I actually got passed when I was lieutenant governor— the problem with life without parole is that people get out for reasons that have nothing to do with justice. We had a case where a guy who was a rapist, a serial sex offender, was convicted, then was let out on what I would think and believe was a technicality, a new trial was ordered and the victim wouldn’t come back and go through the second trial. "
http://www.msnbc.com/news/912159.asp?cp1=1



Dean: We of course don’t have capital punishment in Vermont. I doubt I’d go as far as Texas, but I think there are instances where capital punishment is justified. Here’s the problem: I was an opponent of capital punishment until the Polly Klaas case. Then I realized that without capital punishment, sometimes innocent life is lost. People get out of jail on technicalities and then do it again. I just think that people who murder children cannot be rehabilitated. I just have no tolerance for that at all.
http://www.txtriangle.com/archive/1049/coverstory.htm

[UnapologeticLiberal]

103. He does not!

He laid out some questions that he thought needed to be asked but said he had not taken a position on them. And from the way in which he said "whether someone can ask for your ID just because you are walking down the street"...I can't tell because it is in print, but it looks as though he was trying to point out how ridiculous that would be.

[Gringo]

3. Nice Dated Dean-Bash

On September 12th, a lot of lefty peaceniks wanted to nuke anything and arrest anyone swarthy with a beard. If you have some record of him actually destroying someone's civil liberties, as the Bush Cabal did with their years-old unPatriotic Act, I'd like to see it.

Also, Bob Marley didn't do "Don't Worry, Be Happy", that was Bobby McFerrin.

[SGrande]

5. Nice Dodging the issue

A wants to do B. B is BAD

C wants to do B. B is BAD

A is running for President.

A=BAD

Howard Dean is running for President in a DEMOCRATIC primary and he called for the erosion of THE BILL OF RIGHTS for the love of god!

The man is an evil SOB

[blm]

4. Dean really straddles this issue...

He brings it up and seems to endorse the idea but then refuses to explicitly SAY he endorses the idea, like he's taking the temperature of the backlash first. On Cspan last month, the writer from the Burlington paper said that Dean was always on the far right when it came to law and order issues.

The Hartmann piece really illustrates Dean's rightwing nature.

Our Government Needs Good Citizens
by Thom Hartmann

>>>>
In July of 1997, Vermont governor Howard Dean announced that he wanted to appoint to the Vermont Supreme Court a justice who would consider "common sense more important than legal technicalities" and "quickly convict guilty criminals."

It’s probably a testimonial to the good job public education has done in Vermont that there wasn’t a public uprising against him (although the Montpelier newspaper’s letters-to-the-editor section was filled with invective for several weeks). Certainly this is a statement that would not have been acceptable to the people who made Vermont the second independent Caucasian-run nation in North America (after Texas). The founding fathers of Vermont, which dropped its independent-nation status to become the USA’s 14th state in 1779, knew all too well the dangers of a government unconstrained by the "technicalities" of the law. They’d seen it when the British forced them to house soldiers, shot or hung them for speaking out against the King, and allowed them to engage in commerce or own property only if they gave a portion of their wealth to England. They realized that the government has most of the guns and all the power, and that it’s only "legal technicalities" which keep any government at bay. They fought and many of them died to put those "technicalities" into place. When politicians like Dean call for "swift and certain conviction of the guilty" (which actually means "swift and certain conviction of the accused, since a person is only guilty when they’ve been convicted…at least as of the date of this writing) in the courts of the state "regardless of technicalities," I imagine our founding fathers roll over in their graves.
>>>>>

[quinnox]

7. I've heard Dean said he supports the Patriot Act

But it is never mentioned by his supporters on DU. I wonder why??

[dajabr]

10. Because we understand where he stands on the issue...

"I will oppose expansion of the Patriot Act, efforts to remove sunset clauses included in the act, and will seek to repeal the portions of the Patriot Act that are unconstitutional."

More Dean on Civil Liberty & Justice Here: http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_statement_civilrights

[quinnox]

16. Sorry, but that is a nuanced position

It is all or nothing logic on DU regarding Kerry and the Iraq war vote, so it is all or nothing regarding Dean's Patriot Act support. Sucks, but turnabout is fair play.

[killbotfactory]

35. There is a difference between nuance and hypocrisy.

I think Kerry's position on the Iraq war leans more towards the latter.

[SGrande]

151. ...

[SGrande]

20. Owww, NICE HIT

That was the point in my posting that.

I signed up yesterday and I posted a QUESTION about Howard Dean and I was called a warmonger, traitor, GOP-lite just for asking about a contrast between Kerry and Dean.

So many in this forum are so misguided about their own candidate, though I was encouraged by that thread about pointing out your own candidate's weaknesses.

That was real good form!

[whirlygigspin]

9. ha! pap Smear wackos

Lookin more like freepers everyday!

<--article from two days after sept.11

Is this what Kerry is offering as a candidate? pap smears?

:puke: get bent

[SGrande]

25. See!---> Dean supporters and defenders cannot even write one post

personally attacking the messanger!

They IGNORE the fact that their candidate is a facist Wack job calling for the erosion of civil liberties.

The DIFFERENCE is that i read the articles, not just skim the 1st line and write some vicerol post bashing Kerry for the war vote.

DEAN has serious issues with civil liberties in a Dem primary, but you won't get a 1\2 second of thought about that issue from a Dean supporter.

Its like Adolf Hitler. Many of his supporters didn't even know what he was doing or what he was talking about while he quietly murdered 6 million jews because they had that BLIND faith in him.

Warning to Dean supportes: WAKE UP

[CTLawGuy]

140. your post is so ridiculous.. I shouldnt even be answering you...

but, tell me... what civil liberties did Howard Dean get rid of in his time as Gov. of Vermont????

I went to vermont a month ago, I don't recall it being a police state. Your comparison of him to Hitler is disgusting, it shows how desperate Sen. John Milquetoast 's supporters are.

Also, if Dean is such a conservative, why is the DLC trying to derail him?

I can't believe we're being attacked by supporters of a guy who blindly voted for the Patriot Act which ACTUALLY took away civil liberties, and a guy who voted to condemn hundreds of Americans and thousands of Iraqis to death and has the GALL to criticize how the president handled the war FOUR MONTHS later when it is politically safe! Kerry is so FREIGHTENED of the "popular" Bush it is sickening.

Get a life...

[ThorsteinVeblen]

12. Not even worth a reply

What a joke. I smell desperation already in the Kerry camp.

[SGrande]

26. Howard Dean is the joke

See, you guys cannot even answer a question about his borderline facist views on civil liberties.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

50. Sniff...sniff....

yup...desperation.

[SGrande]

55. :)

:hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi::hi:

[blm]

83. HAHA...can't defend Dean's OWN words, can you?

You think calling for common sense judges who will bypass legal "technicalities" is a JOKE? Tell that to all those who sit in prison because of judges who bypassed legal "technicalities."

[Jim Sagle]

19. This thread ain't nuthin' but shit.

[demnan]

24. Yeah

[SGrande]

31. haha, each dodge you dean supporters give PROVES THE POINT

[Andromeda]

130. Is your name really Nicholas???

It's alright---you're among friends.

Well, not really.

[SGrande]

28. lol

EACH AND EVERY DEAN SUPPORTER HERE cannot even answer the charge but call it"shit"

Didn't bother to read the article or do research.

lol

Dean won't make it past March.

[Duder]

23. This is funny...

House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-TX) congratulates Kerry for making a "super-duper point" about Iraq.

[demnan]

27. In defense of Kerry

I'd say that the Onion photoshopped that photo. I don't think Kerry would let that little squirrel pat him on the head!

[SGrande]

29. dodge again!

Dean supporters are really sad.

You guys get HIT AND WALLOPED by a chage that Dean is a wacko facist in disguise and all you can do is ATTACK Kerry!

Thanks for the worship, but pleazzzzzzz

Offer some vision Howard Dean and some ideas and then you can perhaps gaze at the majesty of John Kerry.

[demnan]

37. Did you read the articles you posted?

I did and I gave you my take on them. I don't have to hate Kerry to like Dean. Hell, I don't even hate Lieberman and the DNC! But then I'm older than you, so I've learned to be tolerant. ;)

[SGrande]

39. I never mention posters on the DU

Thats against the rules silly! :)

I mean Dean supporters in general have this hateful, golum like reaction to John Kerry and its "all or nothing " on the Iraq thing.

If thats your position, thats cool, but seriously, you can watch the posts go down in order. Each and every one of them is a dodge; because they only have an emototional reaction to Dean, and I doubt ever really looked at his positions on a spread sheet and sees the Death Penalty, weak on environment etc

[demnan]

47. I disagree with Dean on the death penalty

but I disagreed with Clinton on it too and he was a fine President. How does Kerry stand on the death penalty by the way?

I think you would make a more productive post if you compared and contrasted the positions of Kerry and Dean then we could see the difference.

[SGrande]

57. Okay, good point

sorry :)

Kerry is against the Death Penality 100%. Do not quote me on it, but I think he wants a national ban, but in all honesty Im not sure how succesful itll be. But if you really want something to grab onto , its that.

[ModerateMiddle]

96. eh, that's no longer true

Kerry says the death penalty is appropriate for terrorists.

[SGrande]

101. thats a techniclity and the vet in him

the plain fact is that Dean wants the Death Penality here at home, and that draws the line.

[BigLed]

134. gaze at the majesty of John Kerry.

Good Lord. You may be the wacko here. The majesty? Gaze?

Hmmmph

[quinnox]

33. But, no comment on Dean's Patriot Act support?

What do you think about it?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

118. What a jerk

DeLay is a total jerk. I think that is something every DUer can agree with.

[lastliberalintexas]

32. Kerry supporters might try basket weaving if they need a hobby

I'm not sure what has happened in the last couple of weeks to make Kerry supporters become uber Dean haters going around bashing Dean rather than posting positive things about their candidate. You just had to post an anti-Dean article, huh? It isn't sufficient for you to post something good about Kerry?

Kerry's my number 2 choice and there are many good things that you could be talking about involving him and his campaign. But no, that would be a little too productive. Instead, you'd apparently waste your time posting something to bash another Dem. This does nothing to bolster any Dem candidate, it only tears one down. Thanks so much for playing according to Rove's wish book.

[SGrande]

36. SEE, again, and again a dodge

ANSWER THE QUESTION

Is Dean a facist right winger in disguise!?

He's a corporate whore, he cut medicaid, he calls for the erosion of civil liberties, he's FOR the death penalty, He's AGAINST gay marriage.

You guys have no answers cause you DON'T EVEN KNOW YOUR CANDIDATE.

[lastliberalintexas]

43. No, he's not and you know that

Several posters here have already provided you with information concerning Dean's stand on the Patriot Act, with links to his statements even. But you apparently don't care to read those. You's apparently rather post disruptive BS that does NOTHING to support Kerry.

Let me point out for you yet again that Dean does not support the Patriot Act as written, and would prefer to scrap the whole thing. Is his stand as good as Kucinich's? No. But it's better than Kerry who voted for the darn thing.

Now, are you going to respond to his actual position on the issues or continue to post disruptive lies about a Dem candidate?

And let me ask this yet again- why not post something POSITIVE ABOUT KERRY? Why go negative when there are plenty of good things to talk about with Kerry? Is it just more fun for you to bash a Dem than to say good things about a Dem?

[SGrande]

58. That Politics and ya know it Mon'Shaire

He can put all he wants on his website, the pure facts is that he said this:

"Dean said Wednesday he believed that the attacks and their aftermath would “require a re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties. I think there are going to be debates about what can be said where, what can be printed where, what kind of freedom of movement people have and whether it's OK for a policeman to ask for your ID just because you're walking down the street.”

Dean said he had not taken a position on these questions. Asked whether he meant that specific rights described in the Bill of Rights — the first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution — would have to be trimmed, the governor said:


And positive about Kerry?

How about he is against the death penalty, something Dean is for?

[lastliberalintexas]

72. So how does your guy explain his vote on the Patriot Act

Dean did not say anything in those articles indicating that he would SUPPORT a rollback of the Bill of Rights or any other Constitutional provisions. He said there would be a "re-evaluation" and a "debate" but he said nothing of supporting the RW agenda.

KERRY VOTED FOR THE PATRIOT ACT. Can you not understand that? Yes, he has backed off that position and says now that he doesn't support it. I can believe him, and I do not attack him for it, but I did disagree with him for voting for it in the first place.

Kerry is doing fine, as are most of our 9 candidates. No need to go off the deep end and attack people like you have here, unless your intent is to actually be disruptive.

[SGrande]

78. "Re-evaluation" means removing

and right now the Patriot has a sunset date, which is why MOST of the Senator's voted for it.

We don't know what Dean has in mind to curb our freedoms, but Im sure he can answer it sometime :)

[dsc]

85. Kerry favors the death penalty for terrorists

which is one of Dean's three crimes for which he favors it. Try being truthful.

[SGrande]

89. That, i did not know

I wasnt trying to be not truthful.

[blm]

100. NO death penalty in the criminal justice system.

The death penalty only for terrorists who kill civilians because they are acting as combatants on THE battlefield which they bring with them.

[SGrande]

117. exactly

[MercutioATC]

129. Whaaaaaat????

"They bring the battlefield with them" so they don't fall under the criminal justice system? WHO. exactly decides who is a terrorist (stripping them of due process) and who is not?

THAT sounds like a bizarre distinction to me...and a dangerous one.

[blm]

145. Bin Laden and al Qaeda

take their battlefields with them. Care to defend them just to take a jab at Kerry?

[MercutioATC]

150. I don't have to defend them...

To say that anybody has the unilateral option to declare who is a "terorist" and who is not is frightening in this day and age. To further say that they have the right to strip the accused of their civil rights is facist.

Damn...you sounded like a liberal until now. Granted, a liberal with opinions that differed from mine, but a liberal nonetheless.|

To say that whomever is judged a "terrorist" by the current government doesn't deserve due process IS facist.

Care to defend your position just to take a jab at the Constitution?

[DianeK]

81. Whoa...

i know my candidate pretty well. he was my governor for about 11 years, i think...one thing is certain..dean is not the left wing liberal that the media likes to make him out to be but right wing facist? no, that doesn't really fit either. there have been many issues over the years that i have disagreed with....some to the point of questioning who i might vote for as he was coming up to each election. i disagree with him on his personal views of the death penalty, but we don't have the death penalty here in vermont and that has to tell you something....as for gay marriage..might i remind you that we have civil unions here in vermont, largely due to his influence..i remember him telling our legislators that it was time to grow up...as for the nation, he believes that to be a state issue...i am not even relating to your other name calling..corporate whore? can you give specific examples? something else that may be useful to remember...40 of our states are now either in bankruptcy or very close to it..vermont has a 10 million surplus

[SGrande]

87. Hey, I think your blessed

I think you missed my overall point and Ill be honest, I may be wrong on the corporate whore thing :)

But Dean is a little rhetorician as well, so please forgive me :)


My point was , and I should clear this up, many DU dean supporters are vicerol and emotional in their support ,which is fine, but they try to attack Kerry and others are non-emotional grounds and "facts are facts" type of arguments.

But when i come at those same exact people with facts, they retreat back to their emotional bubble.

Support whoever the hell you want, thats great! Its a victory for democracy, but be fair.

I just want these DU dean fanatics to be fair to everyone.

If they want to fight it out emotionally, lets go. If they want to fight it out intellectually, lets go, but they need to stop pulling this crap of going in and out as they please and causing thoughtful undecided democrats great pains in trying to figure out the honest part of the debate

[Andromeda]

131. Now I know your name is Nicholas...

c'mom fess up. Go take your meds and nursey wursey will tuck you in. Maybe tomorrow they'll remove the handcuffs.

[janx]

155. I'm probably not the first one to tell you this...but you're not

helping Kerry at all by posting things like that. You are actually doing him harm.

Imagine if someone new stumbled into DU, saw your Kerry avatar, and read the words in your post. What would that indicate about Kerry supporters?

[Fleshdancer]

40. Since we're talking about civil liberties,

then certainly we can bring up the Patriot Act, right? Because as I recall, it was Kerry, Edwards, and Lieberman who voted for the damn thing and Graham who co-wrote a section of it dealing with foreign intelligence.

Kucinich voted against the the bill and has stated in the past that parts of it are unconstitutional. On his website, he states "we should not let the actions of terrorists cause us to reject our American system of justice. The ultimate terror in a democracy is the destruction of constitutional principles."

Dean, in an interview with for truthout.com stated "...it can't be constitutional for the FBI to be able to go through your files at the library or the local video store, to see what you've taken out in the last week, without a warrant."

http://www.sptimes.com/2003/06/14/Worldandnation/Graham_quiet_about_hi.shtml

[quinnox]

46. Yea, and Dean supports the Patriot Act

What do you think about that?

[Duder]

52. I think you're wrong...

PITT: If you win in 2004, will you repeal or scale back the Patriot Act?

DEAN: I would do two things. First of all, I would remove the parts of the Patriot Act that are clearly unconstitutional. It can't be constitutional to hold an American citizen without access to a lawyer. Secondly, it can't be constitutional for the FBI to be able to go through your files at the library or the local video store, to see what you've taken out in the last week, without a warrant. The other thing I would do is appoint judges that would uphold the constitution. This President is appointing people from the far-right Federalist Society who have a different view of the constitution than most Americans. I hate to agree with anything Dick Nixon said, but Dick Nixon used to say that he wanted strict constructionists for the bench. This President is appointing right-wing judicial activists. We need strict constructionists that believe in the constitution and will uphold it as written.

[Fleshdancer]

51. From the Truthout.org interview

PITT: If you win in 2004, will you repeal or scale back the Patriot Act?

DEAN: I would do two things. First of all, I would remove the parts of the Patriot Act that are clearly unconstitutional. It can't be constitutional to hold an American citizen without access to a lawyer. Secondly, it can't be constitutional for the FBI to be able to go through your files at the library or the local video store, to see what you've taken out in the last week, without a warrant. The other thing I would do is appoint judges that would uphold the constitution. This President is appointing people from the far-right Federalist Society who have a different view of the constitution than most Americans. I hate to agree with anything Dick Nixon said, but Dick Nixon used to say that he wanted strict constructionists for the bench. This President is appointing right-wing judicial activists. We need strict constructionists that believe in the constitution and will uphold it as written.

[quinnox]

56. So he wants to get rid of "parts" of it

But he isn't calling for a total repeal of the Patriot Act. Sounds like he supports the Patriot Act.

[Duder]

60. One thing we do know for sure...

John Kerry voted FOR the Patriot Act.

[SGrande]

69. Other thing we know for sure

Dean said Wednesday he believed that the attacks and their aftermath would “require a re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties. I think there are going to be debates about what can be said where, what can be printed where, what kind of freedom of movement people have and whether it's OK for a policeman to ask for your ID just because you're walking down the street.”

Dean said he had not taken a position on these questions. Asked whether he meant that specific rights described in the Bill of Rights — the first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution — would have to be trimmed, the governor said

[SGrande]

67. No he would make his own patriot act :)

Dean said Wednesday he believed that the attacks and their aftermath would “require a re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties. I think there are going to be debates about what can be said where, what can be printed where, what kind of freedom of movement people have and whether it's OK for a policeman to ask for your ID just because you're walking down the street.”

Dean said he had not taken a position on these questions. Asked whether he meant that specific rights described in the Bill of Rights — the first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution — would have to be trimmed, the governor said




:argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh:

[SGrande]

66. He sure changed his tone

Dean said Wednesday he believed that the attacks and their aftermath would “require a re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties. I think there are going to be debates about what can be said where, what can be printed where, what kind of freedom of movement people have and whether it's OK for a policeman to ask for your ID just because you're walking down the street.”

Dean said he had not taken a position on these questions. Asked whether he meant that specific rights described in the Bill of Rights — the first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution — would have to be trimmed, the governor said:

[shance]

45. Being a staunch Civil Liberties advocate and a Dean supporter

Your references don't seem to back up your accusation.

For one thing, one of the articles is two years old and deals with a situation that has nothing to do with how the Bush Administration and the DOJ have assaulted our Civil Liberties in the guise of "Terrorism" and National Security.

In fact none of the articles give any reference to Deans overall stance on Civil Liberties in comparison to the PRESENT assault on Civil Liberties. Although I would agree with you that tightening up on Civil Liberties in order to lock up criminals is not the right way to handle the issue due to the lack of sufficient defense resources for those without finances to pay for legal representation I would also wager that perhaps after all that has transpired since 9/11, Dean has changed his perspective as well.

From what I have heard and have read, he is a staunch protector of Civil Liberties, especially due to the fact that unlike all the other candidates, Dean has had the opportunity and taken the time to travel across America and truly listen to the concerns of Americans, and the assault on our Civil Liberties is certainly one of the highest concerns on Americans minds.

What I have heard Governor Dean address is in fact the abuses this Administration has enacted in the name of Homeland Security in order to restrict and incarcerate individuals that have done nothing to provoke such an action, is WRONG, is a threat to essentially all Americans and should be addressed.

What makes me comfortable in supporting Howard Dean is that he is an individual that is able to discern situations by using common sense and seeing problems (and solutions) in their entirety. As much passion and concern as he has for the present state of our country, and as "reactive" as some would like to imply about Dean, I believe his innate sense of doing what is right overrules emotion when it comes to his ability to make both intelligent and compassionate decisions that are in the highest interest of all Americans.

[SGrande]

61. I respect your opinion, but he did say this:

Dean said Wednesday he believed that the attacks and their aftermath would “require a re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties. I think there are going to be debates about what can be said where, what can be printed where, what kind of freedom of movement people have and whether it's OK for a policeman to ask for your ID just because you're walking down the street.”

Dean said he had not taken a position on these questions. Asked whether he meant that specific rights described in the Bill of Rights — the first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution — would have to be trimmed, the governor said:


That sounds a lot like what Ashcroft has done recently.

[dajabr]

70. You keep shopping this quote around...

And yet you won't deal with my response to it in post#8. Why?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

75. I'll respond

Actually I did above, but perhaps it was not enough of a knee-jerk response to get your attention.

Bill of Rights up for debate? I find that a little scary, frankly. Sure, it was right after 9/11, but there may be even worse things than 9/11 in the future. If so I hope the President of our country will be able to keep a level head.

Another quote:

"Dean said Wednesday he believed that the attacks and their aftermath would “require a re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties. I think there are going to be debates about what can be said where, what can be printed where, what kind of freedom of movement people have and whether it's OK for a policeman to ask for your ID just because you're walking down the street.”

I am chilled. I think if anything our rights need to be strengthened and better enforced, especially Amendments 9 and 10 which have practically been ignored since they were adopted.

Do you, dajabr, believe we should have a debate and discussion about whether we should scale back the Bill of Rights?

Dean has been my number two guy - in fairness my number one guy, Kerry, was one of the 98 Senators voting for the Patriot Act. But I don't think he saw that as the first step in a debate on whether the Bill of Rights should be scaled back.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

88. dajabr do u thinkwe should have adebate on scaling back the bill f rights?

dajabr do you think we should have a debate on scaling back the bill of rights? Because that is what you are defending.

[dajabr]

111. No.

(sorry I went out for a while)

And as Dean said in the quote, he's "not there yet," and thinks it "unlikely."

So, what I'm advocating is the man's right to answer a reporter's question and suggest a debate shortly after 9/11 about the issue of civil rights - as opposed to signing off on the Patriot Act without reading it.

The quote being offered really doesn't really prove anything. Now, if Dean drastically curtailed civil rights in VT, and someone can show me the proof, that would be a different story...

[Feanorcurufinwe]

121. what he said

Dean said Wednesday he believed that the attacks and their aftermath would “require a re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties. I think there are going to be debates about what can be said where, what can be printed where, what kind of freedom of movement people have and whether it's OK for a policeman to ask for your ID just because you're walking down the street.”

Dean said he had not taken a position on these questions. Asked whether he meant that specific rights described in the Bill of Rights — the first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution — would have to be trimmed, the governor said:

“I haven't gotten that far yet. I think that's unlikely,

What he said was that he was 'not there yet' on trimming the Bill of Rights. He didn't say he was 'not there yet' on having a debate on the issue. He is free to have a debate on trimming the Bill of Rights (thanks to the Bill of Rights), however, I don't think that is a debate we need to have. A debate on whether to EXPAND or more effectively enforce the Bill of Rights is something I WOULD welcome. Also, saying that you think it is unlikely that the Bill of Rights be trimmed is a lot different from saying you oppose it.

[dajabr]

143. If we look at these comments in the harshest light possible...

Now, almost 2 years later... What was the outcome of the debate Dean was suggesting? What was Dean's position during said debate (if it ever happened on a state level)? Or, are we only judging him on this single quote?

What civil liberties do Vermonters not have that the rest of the country has? Aside from the Patriot Act which some of our candidates voted on without even reading?

Seems to me, VT picked up an additional right during his tenure in the form of Civil Unions.

Did I miss something?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

146. So you no longer deny what he said.

So you no longer deny what he said.

Now, almost 2 years later... What was the outcome of the debate Dean was suggesting? What was Dean's position during said debate (if it ever happened on a state level)? Or, are we only judging him on this single quote?

Well we haven't had that debate. BushCo has been rolling back our rights without any debate.

What civil liberties do Vermonters not have that the rest of the country has? Aside from the Patriot Act which some of our candidates voted on without even reading?

Well, as governor of Vermont, Dean wasn't in any position to roll back federally protected civil liberties was he? So your question is a red herring.

Seems to me, VT picked up an additional right during his tenure in the form of Civil Unions.

Was that his idea?

[sandnsea]

74. The VOTE is 2 years old

"the Bush Administration and the DOJ have assaulted our Civil Liberties in the guise of "Terrorism" and National Security."

Every Democratic candidate has taken this position in some form or other. Every single one. What the Bush Administration has done with the Patriot Act is in no way what any Democrat in Congress intended.

But all a Dean supporter can usually say is 'he voted for it'.

That response does nothing to discuss the different positions the candidates take. And it does nothing to discuss what Howard Dean actually said at the exact same time others were required to make this decision, or would actually do about it if he were President. What he said in 2002 is just as important, probably more important, than what he says today on the campaign trail.

And where in God's green earth did you get the freaking idea that no other candidate is traveling across America? If you really believe that, you are not paying attention.

[killbotfactory]

79. Kerry, and others, still support it!

It's not just the vote, it's the continued support even after it's blatantly unconstitutional provisions have been pointed out.

[SGrande]

82. Here is JOHN KERRY's words

from the horse's mouth:

Opponents say the Patriot Act represents a major assault upon civil liberties. But Kerry said Ashcroft’s biggest threats to civil liberties don’t stem from the Patriot Act itself, but other sources, such as his “misinterpretation” of a 1938 law now being used to classify some terrorism suspects as “enemy non-combatants.”

Kerry said he doesn’t support Ashcroft’s recent request for additional powers to combat terrorism.

“We need to fix the things that are wrong with the Patriot Act, addressing concerns about civil liberties and privacy,” he said.

http://www.dreamwater.com/blueelf/prezKERRY.html

[sandnsea]

97. he voted for it

discussion over.

:eyes:

[SGrande]

102. There they GO AGAIN

Deanites cannot debate.

All they can say is "he voted for it"

Well, right back at you !

In July of 1997, Vermont governor Howard Dean announced that he wanted to appoint to the Vermont Supreme Court a justice who would consider "common sense more important than legal technicalities" and "quickly convict guilty criminals."


DEAN IS AGAINST THE BILL OF RIGHTS!

Discussion over!

[killbotfactory]

68. Does Dean calling for a debate on the issue a few days after the attacks..

Somehow excuse Kerry's continued support for the PATRIOT act, and all it's unconstitutional provisions?

[blm]

80. He helped make sure they were sunsetted.

But, what makes you believe that Dean would NOT have voted for the Patriot Act?

What makes anyone think he has truly changed from what he said about Vermont judges? His quote about legal "technicalities" sounds like a GOP buttlicking comment if I ever heard one....oh hell...it sounds like something Bush would say.

[killbotfactory]

84. So why does he still support it?

Why can't he just admit that it goes to far?

[SGrande]

94. honest answer here

Because I doubt anyone has asked him up front like that.

The Senator is an intellectual and is very strong in his opinions; I think he might even agree with you if someone asked him, except some Press. He HATES the press, thanks to the brutal treatment he got in the 1996 election.

The election BTW which was hard because he voted against DOMA, the only sitting Senator to vote for it while up for re-election.

[blm]

112. He did...

and said he wants to fix what's wrong, addressing civil rights and privacy issues.

[dsc]

90. No he didn't

The House put the sunset stuff in and then let the Senate know that without that they wouldn't pass it. We have Barr, Frank, Conyers and several others to thank for those sunsets.

[SGrande]

92. house-senate committee added it back in later

which Kerry was apart of

[blm]

116. From Moveon:

"I strongly supported including a sunset provision in the Patriot Act, which will cause the Act to expire unless Congress reauthorizes it. "

[dsc]

125. I would like some citation of

a real time advocation for this. My memory of the debate at the time was that the House Judiciary Committee was the place where this was added and that they had to defend it from being removed. I honestly don't remember any Senator making a big deal of the sunset provision at the time. If you have a quote that says differently then fine but what you provided isn't it.

[SGrande]

91. He calls for a rollback AND a debate

Dean said Wednesday he believed that the attacks and their aftermath would “require a re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties. I think there are going to be debates about what can be said where, what can be printed where, what kind of freedom of movement people have and whether it's OK for a policeman to ask for your ID just because you're walking down the street.”

Dean said he had not taken a position on these questions. Asked whether he meant that specific rights described in the Bill of Rights — the first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution — would have to be trimmed, the governor said:


“I haven't gotten that far yet. I think that's unlikely, but I frankly haven't gotten that far. Again, I think that's a debate that we will have.”

The bold is your agument, the above is mine. It is symptomatic though, if you read post #76 of a broader issue that protrays a Presidential Candidate who has serious problems with civil liberties based on pragmatic conerns. Those concerns I might even agree here, but my point is not that, its the vicerol , emotional reaction that many DU Dean supporters have when faced with facts that their candidate may not be GOD

[killbotfactory]

93. That's a bit different than what he said to MoveOn.org

2. FREEDOM (see what other candidates said)
The enactment of Patriot Act I is a dangerous erosion of civil liberties in the United States. The proposed Patriot Act II is even more frightening. The purpose of both pieces of legislations seems to be the stifling of dissent rather than improving security in the U.S. If elected would you revisit the Patriot Act with the view of revising or repealing it? If we cannot speak without fear, we aren't living in a democracy.
--Bonnie Mulligan, Supervisor (June 11, 2003; Lanham, MD)

We must never forget that the rights guaranteed us in the Constitution are precious, and one of the very first things that the terrorists we’re fighting would destroy. We do not need to give away our personal liberties to protect our country. We must defend our freedoms and defend ourselves against terrorism.

John Ashcroft has taken away far more liberties than this act ever authorized and that is wrong.

For example, The Bush Administration does not have the authority to indefinitely detain U.S. citizens as “enemy combatants” without charging them with a crime and without allowing them access to an attorney or any judicial review. I am outraged that the Justice Department’s has required tens of thousands of Muslim and Arab visa holders – students, workers, researchers, and tourists – to register with the government and be fingerprinted and photographed. This sweeping plan, proposed without any consultation with Congress, does little to provide real protection against terrorism. Instead it stigmatizes innocent Muslims and Arabs who pose no danger, and discourages those who want to support our law enforcement and counter-terrorism efforts.

I strongly supported including a sunset provision in the Patriot Act, which will cause the Act to expire unless Congress reauthorizes it. The Bush Administration reportedly plans to introduce a second “Patriot Act” – we have learned from the first Patriot Act that the last thing we need is John Ashcroft rewriting the Bill of Rights. I am alarmed by what has been reported to be part of “Patriot Act II” and I will very carefully review any new proposal and fight to ensure that it does not violate civil liberties. As President I would fight hard to win the War on Terrorism. But in the process, I would never forget the liberties and freedoms that we are fighting for in the first place.

http://www.moveon.org/pac/cands/kerry.html

[genius]

86. Dean has always had problems with civil liberties

Thank you for these references. I hope this will help to educate the Deanies. The question is how do we epxlain the truth about Dean to people who don't want to know it? We've been watching the Bush-Hitler phenomenon and the Dean-Hitler phenomenon is very similar. You have people giving blind obedience to some guy and a total refusal to look at where he stands on the issues. If you point out Dean's position on any issue, you are accused of being negative. If Dean's positions on the issues are so negative that they can't even be discussed, why are the Deanies following this guy?

[SGrande]

95. I hear you man

That is the point of this entire thread.

I AM TIRED OF BEING PUSHED AROUND by DEANIES!

I just want an open, honest, truthful debate.

Not one where i'll be called a traitor, GOP-lite, warmonger etc

[killbotfactory]

107. Oh, piss off.

If you want an open, honest, truthful debate, then start one. Throwing shit around like your original post does just pisses everybody off.

[SGrande]

109. throwing shit around?

I started one. People replied.

Thorbstein created like 4 threads.

Someone finally answered me , as a Deanite, and I was happy, read the post.

My part in this is done, except for making thorbstein mad :)

[killbotfactory]

113. You started a thread called "HOWARD DEAN assaults CIVIL LIBERTIES"

The content of which Dean just says there's going to be a debate and he hasn't taken a position yet.

Yes sir, you sure came for calm reasonable debate. :crazy:

[SGrande]

115. He says that AFTER he says

Dean said Wednesday he believed that the attacks and their aftermath would “require a re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties. I think there are going to be debates about what can be said where, what can be printed where, what kind of freedom of movement people have and whether it's OK for a policeman to ask for your ID just because you're walking down the street.”

Dean said he had not taken a position on these questions. Asked whether he meant that specific rights described in the Bill of Rights — the first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution — would have to be trimmed, the governor said


And Dabajar and I were just about to finish that discussion when the Deanites took over and starting posting insults and acted in a vicerol fashion.

[quinnox]

98. An appreciation

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I did not know this info before, and I'm sure it will be helpful to those on the fence about Dean.

[SGrande]

104. your welcome!

:)

I'm tired of being pushed around by the Arm-Pit hair brigade

[babzilla]

133. arm pit hair brigade?

I resemble that remark. Is that another phrase for femi-nazis?

Tell me, do you shave your armpits, and if so, do you get those nasty razor bumps that hurt like hell? Give it up dude, you really aren't fooling anyone.

[dsc]

99. Of the three articles

Only one do I see a problem with. I agree he shouldn't have called for the debate about civil liberties right after 9/11 but neither should have others voted for the Patriot Act without reading it.

The second article is impossible to respond to as no context is supplied. If you get a better link I will give you a response. I have no clue if this guy even got the quote technically correct let alone in context.

I fail to see a problem at all with the third article. I assume your problem is with the death penalty. Federally it isn't a big deal. Dean is for the federal bill which would require decent attorneys and DNA testing. That is all a President can really do on this issue. If this were a governer's race then I might have to think again.

[SGrande]

105. I agree

thank you!

honestly, I finally found someone who could just answer it coherently, my part in this debate...is over.

nighty!

:)

[Feanorcurufinwe]

108. Meet the Press transcript - technicality

"convicted, then was let out on what I would think and believe was a technicality"

This is what I noticed in the Meet the Press transcript. When someone says a defendent was let out on a 'technicality' they mean they were let out because their rights were violated. Some of us don't see our rights as technicalities. There is an old maxim in American jurisprudence: " "better ten guilty men go free than one innocent man be punished."

I believe that. Does Howard Dean?

[dsc]

124. You left out part of that quote

he said convicted, sent to prision, and then let out on a technicality (and this was in regards to parole). I think he meant that people were being paroled for poor reasons. He did speak poorly in that section but he said this in regards to the killer of Polly Klaas who had been paroled not set free for rights being violated.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

135. The full quote

"We had a case where a guy who was a rapist, a serial sex offender, was convicted, then was let out on what I would think and believe was a technicality, a new trial was ordered and the victim wouldn’t come back and go through the second trial. And so the guy basically got time served, and he was the man who murdered a 15-year-old girl and raped her and then left her for dead and she was dead. So life without parole doesn’t work either. If life without parole worked 100 percent of the time, there’d be no need for the death penalty because I agree with the bishop. Vengeance should never be a piece of this. As human beings, we all want to get revenge. That should never part of public policy, to get revenge, but the trouble is that life without parole is not perfect either and the victims in that case are 15- and 12-year-old girls. That is every bit as heinous as putting to death someone who didn’t commit the crime."

http://www.msnbc.com/news/912159.asp?cp1=1

So you can see he is not talking about the guy getting parole - he said "was let out on what I would think and believe was a technicality, a new trial was ordered" - in other words his lawyer appealed and won a new trial. Think about what it means when someone says a 'technicality' at a trial. They are saying someone demanded their right to a fair trial. I don't know anything about this case beyond what Dean has said here so if anyone knows the facts of this case I would like to hear them. It's a little confusing where he says the victim wasn't willing to endure a second trial, and then later he says she was dead. But I don't believe the facts of any individual case justify glossing over someone's rights because they are 'obviously guilty' if that's what he means. At any rate it leaves me wondering whether Dean believes "better ten guilty men go free than one innocent man be punished." Combined with the death penalty that is really scary. Remember, YOU could be the one falsely executed. "It can't happen to me?"

[Mairead]

136. "as heinous as putting to death someone who didn't commit the crime"

There speaks someone who has lost the meaning. The state isn't supposed to be in the business of killing someone just to keep them from possibly getting let off on 'a technicality'. ('Oh, sorry we hanged your son, Mrs Evans, but we posthumously pardoned him after we discovered it was Christie who really did it. Oh, you're not satisfied by the pardon? Well! There's just no pleasing some people, is there.')

If Dennis Kucinich had said what Dean said there, I'd not only stop supporting him, I'd work against him.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

138. What I find especially troubling

What I find especially troubling is how he says "as heinous as putting to death someone who didn't commit the crime" - which implies that he understands how wrong that is. But the totality of his words show he is less concerned with this than executing people before they might recieve new trials? I don't even know how to restate his position because it makes no sense to me - you are better off reading his words. I think they are pretty clear on this point, however muddled I find the thinking. And I do find his viewpoint chilling.

[TreasonousBastard]

110. PUH-LEEEZE...

shut up

JUST SHUT UP!

This is turning into another gang war.

NONE of the candidates is perfect.

ALL of the candidates are better than the current President-like object. (well, OK, I can think of a couple that might not be, but they have little chance anyway...)

I suppose we have to put up with some primary battling before things settle down, but never, ever, lose sight of the goal to rid the world of the present Commander-in-Thief before he leaves this country and everything he touches in smoking ruins.

[SGrande]

114. You miss the point

Many of us, I've only been here 1 day for christ's sake!

ARE TIRED of being pushed around, berated, insulted and made fun of , in the grey area of course, so they dont get banned...By DEANITES.

I want to discuss the issues and where we think they should address new issues and what they should do to beat Bush, instead Im called a traitor, GOP-lite, mediawhore, god knows what else that has nothing to do with the fact that I just wanted to come here to discuss the issues.

[el_gato]

123. wanting nothing but a fight

I haven't really decided on who to support
but your style of discourse is certainly designed
for nothing but verbal warfare.

I doubt if you are even a Kerry supporter.

You are simply not interested in informed discussion.

[whirlygigspin]

128. 132 posts in one day?

sniff sniff

[Feanorcurufinwe]

119. If you don't want to read it don't.

If you don't want to read it don't. It's not neccesary for anyone to 'SHUT UP'.

If you think this is bad, wait till the General Election campaign and the Repub tactics. The primaries are just the warm-up.

ALL the words of ALL the candidates are subject to scrutiny and discussion by EVERYBODY. That's democracy and free speech.

[LuminousX]

126. Name the Judges, List the Cases

Can someone direct me to the names of the judges Dean appointed while Gov of Vermont and the cases they presided over that resulted in people's rights being stomped on or even hedged in a bit?

Can someone direct me to someone he tried to appoint as a judge who got shot down because of fear of civil rights abuses?

[genius]

127. Thank you for posting this thread

I hope there are more posts, like this, aimed at informing members of where the candidates stand on the issues.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

132. If you liked that you'll love this:

Iraq War Resolution- Kerry= "Aye!"

Patriot Act- Kerry= "Aye!!"

http://www.senate.gov/pagelayout/legislative/a_three_sections_with_teasers/votes.htm

[Mairead]

137. Kerry took a turn to the right since Smirk appeared

but he has a very decent record before that, as BLM has often pointed out. I think in fairness he must be cut some slack (but also have his feet held to the fire, so that he's left in no doubt where people stand on the issues).

[Feanorcurufinwe]

139. In what way

In what way has taken a turn to the right? Could you be more specific?

According to vote-smart.org (http://vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=S0421103#Civil+Liberties) his ACLU rating did go from 71% in 2000 to 60% in 2001-2002.
I think it may be overstating to call that a 'turn to the right'.

[Mairead]

141. Sorry if my words were misleading

I didn't mean he'd suddenly started channeling Chinghiz Khan. I was referring to his war and 'patriot' act votes, mostly. For someone with his general record, that's a marked turn rightward, and his attempts to both eat and keep his cake haven't helped.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

147. I'm glad you admit you overstated the case.

I'm glad you admit you overstated the case.

He did cast those votes, but that does not constitue a turn to the right.

The Patriot Act is relevant to the discussion in this thread. And I think he was dead wrong to vote for it. But there seems to have been a kind of hysteria after 9/11 considering that he was one of 98 senators voting for it.

[genius]

142. You Dean people will use a thank you as an excuse to bash Kerry

I'm not even for Kerry. But I am glad that this information about Dean's positions on civil liberties were posted. You guys must be desparate trying to bash eveyrone in site. While I'm not for Kerry, I would support him if he got the nomination. I can't say the same thing about Dean. I like my liberties.

[LuminousX]

144. Nice way to oust Bush

Good show. And I remember when the Dean supporters were chided because everyone thought they would bolt the party if Dean didn't get the nomination. The true fair-weather Democrats are showing themselves lately.

Anyone start an Anyone But Dean movement?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

148. I'll go along with "Anyone But Bush"

I'll go along with "Anyone But Bush" but this stuff has pretty much knocked Dean out of his position as my second choice.

[newsguyatl]

149. SOMEONE on this thread

((i won't grandstand by mentioning any names, ahem)) sounds really, really unstable...

of course, i'd probably be needing meds, too, if my candidate STARTED as the front-runner and had slipped with no foreseeable 'getting back up'...

unlike dean, who basically started dead last and now is seen, by many, as THE front runner..

i hope this said person gets the help he/she needs...

i'm sure dr. dean can give you the right prescription... ;-)

[genius]

152. This will result in a continuing problem for Dean

I don't think he can earn the trust of most liberals.

[MercutioATC]

153. He seems to be doing fine so far...

I love you harbingers of doom. Dean is doing fine. I'm betting on him continuing to gain steam.

[pmbryant]

154. Locking

This thread was started by a disruptor who has been banned.

pmbryant
DU Moderator