Centrist Democrats: Don't Vote for Dean

[Nicholas_J]

PHILADELPHIA - Democratic presidential hopeful Howard Dean's upstart campaign has excited the party's liberal activists, but centrists have only one thing to say about the candidate: Don't vote for him.

Many members of the Democratic Leadership Council are convinced that Dean's opposition to the war in Iraq makes him too liberal for middle America, and they worry that if he wins the nomination it could undo years of work to persuade the country that the Democratic Party isn't controlled by its left wing.

No group has taken a more hostile view to his candidacy than the DLC, and that attitude was evident Monday on the final day of the group's "National Conversation," a two-day convention aimed at developing a strategy for unseating President Bush.

In materials distributed to hundreds of attendees, the DLC leadership wrote off Dean's early popularly as a phenomenon of an Internet-driven campaign that is exploiting a "visceral hatred" of George W. Bush among those on the far left which the nation does not share.


http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/politics/6404523.htm

[jenk]

1. they're correct, and it's a tough pill to swallow

He is too "librul" for middle america. They'd never vote for him, with Dean we'd win the northeast and nothing else.

I'm pretty moderate Dem myself who is/was backing Edwards. It seems as though his campaign is pretty much dead in the water now, his campaign hasn't been able to gain any momentum. 95% chance I'll jump ship to Kerry, 5% I'll go to Gephardt. But I'm not even considering Dean because he just can't win against Bush!

[madfloridian]

3. No, he is not liberal.

None of think he is. That is GOP/DLC spin.

[jenk]

4. that doesn't matter!

He's already been branded a Northeast Liberal, and I don't think he can shake that title.

[madfloridian]

8. No, many conservatives here in our area are liking him.

That is spin.

[caledesi]

12. Yes. In Florida...had 2 repugs at our Dean Meetup.

[valniel]

19. Giant difference between GOP & DLC

Clinton and Gore were the DLC.
Bush/Cheney/Ashcroft et al. are the GOP

[RobertSeattle]

5. I tend to agree

The Democrats have got to have a "strong on defense" candidate this time around. Unless Dean can somehow repackage himself as a strong on defense candidate he can't be the Dem Presidental Candiate - it's just reality. People want to feel safe. They'll take an idiot (like Bush) as long as he makes them "feel" safe. I realize it is alot of marketing, but that's the way it is.

Ergo: Kerry/Clark/Graham

[MercutioATC]

20. Have you sen the latest Zogby poll?

Dean has some work to do in the south (what Dem doesn't) but he's looking good otherwise.

[Nicholas_J]

26. Edwards has massively picked up in his home state

He was doing pretty badly, but recent local newspaper polls have 47 percent of the democrats in his state now supporting him, 47 percent supporting other candidates, and the rest undecided. Dont write Edwards off just yet.

[madfloridian]

2. And I say baloney to Al From.

:evilgrin:

[GayboyBilly]

7. I just happen to be a queer liberal...

And Dean is to Liberal for me! Now thats being very Liberal. I at least want someone running that has a chance of beating Bush. If Dean is the Democratic canidate, Bush will win by a landslide.

[madfloridian]

10. Go to his site, and look things up.

Then find other issues that are liberal besides his stance on equal right for gays.

He is not that liberal, and when he was governor was part of the DLC.

[Nicholas_J]

25. Yes

In the same poll where Dean comes in at 7 percent recognistion and Kerry 7 percent as the same people who personally selected Dean still give Kerry the best chance of beating Bush.

As for Bush, CBS shows him with a 60% approval rating, their lowest since prior to 9/11, Newsweek shows Bush at 55% approval. These numbers are typically 15% above the likely support number, though the Newsweek poll shows Bush beating all comers in head-to-head match-ups:

When registered voters were asked who they would vote for in a general presidential election between Bush and a Democratic opponent, Bush won every race—against Dean (53 percent vs. 38 percent), Edwards (51 percent vs. 39 percent), Gephardt (51 percent vs. 42 percent), Kerry (50 percent vs. 42 percent) and Lieberman (52 percent vs. 39 percent).

This is within the range for any of the Democrats to win.

http://www.mydd.com/archives/000675.html

If you look at the poll here, Dean has the furthestt uphill battle against Bush, While the point spread between Kerry and Bush is the lowest.

Personally, to me , the best shot is Kerry, and when he starts formally running in September, this is likely to become more obvious.

The last thing you should do is go to a candidates site and look up what they have to say about themselves. That is akin to going to the Phillip Morris site to find out how safe smoking tobacco is.

There are plenty of sites unrelated to the candidates trhemselves in which you can find out what people of your own political stance think of the candidate.

NEVER EVER LISTEN TO WHAT A POLITICIAN SAYS ABOUT THMESELVES AND WHAT THEY STAND FOR, without chscking first, what they have done in the past, and then seeing how it compares to what they are saying to get your vote.

I wil be immediately attacked by Dean supporters, because they have trouble really explaining the differnces between Dean the GOvernor, adn Dean the presidential candidate, which is why they are teliing you to look at his site. I support Kerry, but that is based on what he has done in the past,and how it is pretty much completely consistant with what he is saying now.

Can say the same things about Gephardt, and Mosely Braun for certain.

Lieberman is very liberal, but for some reason, his campaign managers have him trying to come off as tough conservative,when he has a fairly liberal record, so rthere is no tellingwhat most candidates are like from their caqmpaign speeches. Better to look at the goof ups they have made and had to apologize for. What they screw up on is more indicative of what they are like than any canned speech.

[sandnsea]

6. He's not liberal which is why I'm not voting for him

And the Democratic Party better get a clue that as many Democrats voted against the war as for it. How are those people going to get re-elected if they're all too liberal????

And nobody voted for Bush to lie.

[lastliberalintexas]

9. When From starts attacking Kerry,

what are you going to do? Still point to his propaganda and say "Yeah- like he said"?

AL FROM BACKS LIEBERMAN. He has a motive for his attacks on Dean, and has already started going after Graham now too. He will go after any Dem he thinks is a threat to his guy. I think Kerry is a threat to Lieberman, so you may as well expect attacks too.

I am so sorry that some apparently have allowed their hatred of Dean to cloud their judgment and have allowed themselves to become propaganda pushers for Al From. Let me repeat- AL FROM BACKS LIEBERMAN. He will use the DLC to attck any other viable candidate.

Kerry has many many good qualities. Why can't you focus on his positives without attacking another Dem?

And oh yeah- AL FROM BACKS LIEBERMAN.

[Exultant Democracy]

11. Wow what a bunch of mumbo jumbo

First of all, no offense to you Dean lovers, but the guys isn’t half as liberal as he has been painted to be. He didn’t oppose the Iraq war because he is a dove, he just felt that this was a bad war.
The Second part of this that really blows my mind is that they think that us moving to the left is a bad thing????? Whaaa???? Did I miss something or did we move towards the center and lose control of congress for the first time in my lifetime. Didn’t Al Gore run close enough to the center to make the 2000 race close enough to steal.

PLAYING THE CENTER DOESN’T WORK

We tried it, it failed and it is the best way to make sure we don’t win any more elections.
Fact1- The more contrast between the candidates the more interest in the race.
Fact 2- When people are not interested in a race they are less likely to vote.
Fact 3– Low voter turn out is good for the repugs.
If we put it all together it tells us that what the DLC is recommending is political suicide for our party. I’m going to have to change my signature line to something about crazy pills this shit is nuts.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

13. Looks like you read the Kerry website

From the link for "organizing support for Kerry online":

http://www.johnkerry.com/site/PageServer?pagename=activate

"Deliver John Kerry's message to chat rooms, message boards, and newsgroups
If you participate in political discussions online, in forums such as chats, message boards, or newsgroups, be sure to refer to JohnKerry.com as a source of news and information. Use the information here to demonstrate to others the reasons why you support John Kerry. Send an email to [email protected] and let us know about the forums you participate in, and we'll let other online Kerry supporters know so they can join in!"

So, to encourage people to vote for Kerry, you shouldn't ask people to read the newspapers or check out Kerry's voting record for yourself. You should tell people to use his website as a source of news and info. Hmmm, is he afraid to have people look at him through an objective source?

And to think, wasn't it only a few days ago that Dean Bashers were crying about (the ridiculous rumor that) Dean's campaign was telling people to flood places like DU? I didn't see anything like this on Dean's page. Nick, you're doing a great job doing what Kerry tells you to do!

Sorry for my abrasiveness, but I'm getting annoyed at posts that are titled with dribble like "Don't vote for Dean" after days of people reminding one another to promote your candidate, not dismantle someone else's (especially without facts to back up claims).

Now back to your regularly scheduled program.

[blm]

15. Hahah...Kerry's record SHOULD be looked at...

the only people who bash Kerry are the ones who HAVEN'T read his full record. Or rightwingers who HATE his full record.

Kerry's site has a link that has lots of news articles, flattering and unflattering, so how can you declare that they don't want people to read newspapers?

[Kanola]

22. I was pulling for Dean but I think Kerry can win

I agree with those who don't think Dean can win because he hasn't established himself as strong on National Security. People want to be safe. I want a Dem that can win and I think John Kerry can.

[blm]

14. Here's where I disagree...Centrists SHOULD vote for Dean...

Ideologically, he is their candidate.

I never expected centrists to be happy with Kerry's record or any of the more liberal candidates like Kucinich. Dean has EARNED the votes of the centrists who prefer compromising with the GOP. Kerry and Kucinich did not.

[CMT]

16. the DLC is defining one of our front runners for the nomination

and all the GOP has to do is lap it up. The DLC is doing a disservice to the party. I shouldn't say the entire DLC because there are some like Gov. Rendell of Pa. who were brave enough to come to Dean's defense. Dean is a good, solid Democrat and is not too liberal for the country. If Dean is the nominee and is defeated because the polls tell us that people voted against him because he was too much of a "McGovernite" or left-wing democrat then it will be Al From and many within the DLC who will bear a significant amount of this defeat. The best thing Dean could do (and has in his own way been doing) is to be like Harry Truman and tell Al From and the DLC to "go to hell".

[drool_n_yank]

17. DLC = Republican Light or not so light

The DLC seems more and more like a Republican front, if they dont shut up and act like Dems they are going to make more and more votes go to Green. Lieberman is the DLC candidate of choice .

http://www.thescrum.com/archives/2002_08_01.html

In New York for the Democratic Leadership Council's National Conversation, Lieberman was the only one of the potential presidential contenders who met privately with the delegations from the key primary states New Hampshire, Iowa and South Carolina, one of the attendees of the three meetings tells The Scrum.

I will consider going Green if DLC knocks out Dean , Kucinich or whoever is my final choice.

[Nicholas_J]

28. Dean has been called a Rockerfeller Republican for Years

In his own state, the democratic party was drained of membership going over to the more liberal Progressivee Party.

Dean has cleverly examined people who do not like what has happened to the Democratic Party over the yearss and his campaign machine has crafted a candidate who does not exist, but speaks through Howard Deans mouth.

The candidate who said "I represent the DEmocratic Wing of the Democratic Party is not Howard Dean"

That was a speechwriter for his campaiagn...

The man who said, "Unemployed people should stop complining and get themselves a job" and then had to apologize for it...

Was Howard Dean speaking from what little heart he has.

Most of those new people who Dean has gotten intersted in politics agains do not realize that they are supporting a slick madison avenue campaign. You should listen to what the real democrats, and in particular, the liberal Progressive Party of Vermont thought of Howard Dean, not his own advertsing.

What to see what a GREEN has to say about Dean:

Meet Howard Dean
The Man from Vermont is Not Green (He's Not Even a Liberal)
by MICHAEL COLBY

For Vermonters who have seen Howard Dean up close and personal for the last eleven years as our governor, there's something darkly comical about watching the national media refer to him as the "liberal" in the race for the Democratic nomination for president. With few exceptions in the 11-plus years he held the state's top job, Dean was a conservative Democrat at best. And many in Vermont, particularly environmentalists, see Dean as just another Republican in Democrat's clothing.

As the son of a wealthy Long Island family (his father was a prominent Wall Street insider), Dean's used to having his golden path well greased. After dutifully attending Yale and then medical school, Dean looked for a state to launch both a private medical practice and a political career. He chose Vermont as much for its beauty as its lenient mood toward carpet bagging politicians, thus joining Brooklynite Bernie Sanders as a born again Vermonter.

Dean became Vermont's accidental governor in 1991 after Governor Richard Snelling died of a heart attack while swimming in his pool. Dean, the lieutenant governor at the time, took the state's political reins and immediately followed through with his promise not to offend the Snelling Republicans who occupied the executive branch. And Dean carried on with his right-leaning centrism for the next eleven, long years.

With his sights now set on the White House, the Dean team has been doing its best over the last year to polish up a mediocre gubernatorial record. They're also trying to position Dean as "the liberal" in the Democratic field so as to grab the much-coveted early primary voters.

And nowhere are the tall tales of Dean's liberalism more off the mark than when the Dean team begins to gush about his environmental record.

http://www.counterpunch.org/colby02222003.html

Or Deans real backing in Vermont:

The group, known as "Republicans for Dean" represents the first organized GOP endorsement for Dean in any of his five campaigns.

Gilbert, a former member of the late Gov. Richard Snelling's administration, said he took the initiative to form the group, which boasts a membership of more than 30 moderate Republicans from around the state who back Dean.

He said the committee would support Dean's candidacy by reaching out to other moderates in the party as well as helping Dean with fund-raising.

http://www.rutlandherald.com/election2000/repbackdean.html

SOUTH BURLINGTON, Vt. - As Vermont governor, Howard Dean was known as a buttoned-down and bottom-line chief executive. He fought higher taxes, cut programs over the cries of fellow Democrats and often sided with business when the choice was jobs versus the environment.

Which explains why many people back home scarcely recognize Howard Dean the presidential candidate, who has stirred liberals across the country with his blunt talk and passionate antiwar speeches.

"A lot of us laugh and say, 'Howard, we hardly knew you,' " said Elizabeth Ready, the state auditor and a liberal Democrat. Added Bob Sherman, a Democratic lobbyist, "The Howard Dean I see running for president is a lot different than the Howard Dean who . . . governed Vermont. He was a moderate."

http://www.cmonitor.com/stories/news/recent2003/0713%5Fdeanvermont%5F2003.shtml

The people who kew Howard Dean the best, those liberal who continually had to stop him from:




Home » Top Stories »

SOLOMON: Tilting Democrats in the Presidential Race
By Norman Solomon, AlterNet
June 26, 2003

The corporate Democrats who greased Bill Clinton's path to the White House are now a bit worried. Their influence on the party's presidential nomination process has slipped. But the Democratic Leadership Council can count on plenty of assistance from mainstream news media.

For several years leading up to 1992, the DLC curried favor with high- profile political journalists as they repeated the mantra that the Democratic Party needed to be centrist. Co-founded by Clinton in the mid-1980s, the DLC emphasized catering to "middle class" Americans – while the organization filled its coffers with funding from such non- middle-class bastions as the top echelons of corporate outfits like Arco, Prudential-Bache, Dow Chemical, Georgia Pacific and Martin Marietta.

In a 1992 book, "Who Will Tell the People," political analyst William Greider noted that the Democratic Leadership Council's main objective was "an attack on the Democratic Party's core constituencies – labor, schoolteachers, women's rights groups, peace and disarmament activists, the racial minorities and supporters of affirmative action." During the eight years that followed, President Clinton "moderately" shafted many of those constituencies.

Clinton proved to be a political survivor. But his presidency led to the destruction of Democratic majorities in both the House and Senate.

Now, the Los Angeles Times reported in late June, "the centrist 'New Democrat' movement is struggling to maintain its influence in the party as the 2004 presidential race accelerates." DLC stalwart Sen. Joe Lieberman is getting nowhere. Other DLC-friendly candidates, such as Sens. John Kerry and John Edwards, are hardly catching fire.

A recent memo by a pair of DLC honchos, Al From and Bruce Reed, linked the party's progressive-leaning activists with "elitist, interest-group liberalism." The salvo is laughable. It would be difficult to find any organization of Democrats more deserving of the "elitist, interest-group" tag than the DLC, which has long been funded by oil, chemical, insurance and military-contracting corporations – and has served their interests.

One of the key "New Democrats" is DLC favorite John Breaux, a senator from Louisiana who distinguished himself by trying to protect deregulation measures approved in early June by the Federal Communications Commission. Breaux unsuccessfully proposed amendments to help TV networks to further consolidate media ownership. His efforts were even too flagrantly corporate for many Republicans on the Senate Commerce Committee.

Despite its setbacks, the Democratic Leadership Council need not despair. Most of the nation's political journalists, including pro- Democrat pundits, insist that the party should not nominate someone too far "left" – which usually means anybody who's appreciably more progressive than the DLC. That bias helps to account for the frequent mislabeling of Howard Dean, the former Vermont governor who has risen to the top tier of contenders for the 2004 Democratic presidential nomination.

After seven years as governor, the Associated Press described Dean as "a moderate at best on social issues and a clear conservative on fiscal issues." The news service added: "This is, after all, the governor who has at times tried to cut benefits for the aged, blind and disabled, whose No. 1 priority is a balanced budget."

When Dean officially announced his presidential campaign on June 23, some news stories identified him with the left. It's a case of mistaken identity. "He's really a classic Rockefeller Republican – a fiscal conservative and social liberal," according to University of Vermont political scientist Garrison Nelson.

As a fiscal conservative, Dean is aligned with the status quo of extreme inequities. That alignment was on display during a pair of June 22 appearances.

In an interview on NBC's "Meet the Press," Dean delivered a one-two punch against economic justice. He advocated raising the retirement age for Social Security, and he called for slowing down the rate of increases for Medicare spending.

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16268

I am extrmely concerned with those who have supported Dena without listeing tothose who had to fight with him to keep him from cutting programs to assist the blind, hanadicapped, the elderly and the poor, in order to adhere to his monomania for balancing budgets, even when there were alternatives that were moderate aqnd fiscally sound.

[LuminousX]

18. The next person to tell me who I should not vote for

is going to get a punch in the nose. It's a democracy. I can throw my vote away if I want to. So STFU about telling people to not vote for someone. If you want to list reasons why you think Person B is a great candidate for President then do so. If you want to highlight another candidate's record in relation to your candidate, do so. But don't EVER tell me what I should do with my vote.

[DrFunkenstein]

21. Even DLC Members Are Sick Of This Crap

"The Internet may be giving angry, protest-oriented activists the rope they need to hang the party," wrote Randolph Court in the DLC's bimonthly newsletter, The New Democrat Blueprint.

But the harshness of the sniping between Dean's camp and the New Democrats has surprised and upset a few party faithful, and that was evident at the convention.

Washington state Rep. Laura Ruderman rose during one question-and-answer session Monday to beg for an end to hostilities.

"Quite frankly, it's the kind of eating each other alive that drove Jim Jeffords out of the Republican Party," she said, referring to the Vermont senator's decision to become an independent in 2001. "I don't think we can be successful if we let ourselves go down that rathole."

It was a sentiment echoed moments later by Pennsylvania Gov. Ed Rendell, who acknowledged that the Democratic candidates had engaged in some "name-calling" and suggested that they stop criticizing each other.

Still, few of the moderates assembled in Philadelphia thought that the Dean campaign - or any campaign platform that includes a plank against the war in Iraq - will survive once a broader audience begins paying attention to the race.

---

New Hampshire state Rep. Peter Sullivan said that in his primary-crazy home state, Dean has made a splash in college towns and border communities that have attracted young, liberal voters transplanted from other states.

"I think it's going to be tough for him to move past the 18 to 19 percent he's got right now, even though, when you take away his opposition to the war, he's probably as much a New Democrat as anyone here."

[dsc]

23. It will never cease to amaze me how willing

Dean bashers are to contradict themselves from day to day. I would bet I could find a dozen threads on DU2 alone that claim Kerry and Dean had the same position on the war. Many of them posted by Kerry supporters. Yet now, when a group says being against the war is bad, all of the sudden Dean, and only Dean, is against the war. Simply astounding.

[Forkboy]

29. Ah no one takes the poster seriously anyways

if I came out and said "I hate Kerry" how many people would take my news on Kerry seriously? Nic has admitted that he hates Dean so it's obvious he'll post anything to further his cause.

Kind of sad really.

[SaveElmer]

24. It's the difference between leading and following

All the DLC does is take polls and then say the party should just move whichever way the electorate is. That is not leadership. If we truly value the core beliefs we have always held as Democrats, then we should be trying to lead the electorate toward those values. It may take some time, and we may have to lose a few elections along the way, but it is hell of alot better than just turning into poll-watching, slightly moderate Republican clones. And in the long run it will be better for our party.

[DrFunkenstein]

27. Don't Forget The "Corporate Hooker" Part

A big part of "third way" politics is a willingness to turn a blind eye to corporate malfeasance in exchange for a healthy war chest come election time.

This is one of the key points that separates Kerry from other DLC members. He has consistently created legislation and voted to hold corporations acountable. That is why he scores high on Ralph Nader's Public Citizen year after year.

One example is the Kerry amendment to end secret tribunals in NAFTA that superceded the US Constitution. The amendment failed, despite being a "modest reform."

"The amendment was a modest reform that guaranteed much-needed changes in the NAFTA Chapter 11 investment model in future trade agreements.

Under the model, foreign investors may file a claim in secret NAFTA tribunals to seek compensation when government public interest regulations in any way diminish the value of their investment.

In doing so, the amendment would have instructed U.S. trade negotiators to ensure that future investor provisions do not grant foreign investors rights beyond what the U.S. Constitution provides."

http://action.citizen.org/pc/issues/votes/?votenum=121&chamber=S&congress=1072