Kerry advisor: "We can take out Howard Dean whenever we want to"

[killbotfactory]

2004 Campaign: Lying in Wait for Dean

ADVISERS TO THE other front runner, Sen. John Kerry, don’t want to attack Dean now because they think he’ll crumble quickly when they finally do. In the meantime, Kerry advisers say, it’s good for the race to be seen by many party insiders as a two-way Kerry-Dean contest, since that deprives the other top-tier candidates—Dick Gephardt, John Edwards and Joe Lieberman—of media attention and campaign donations. “We can take Howard Dean on whenever we want to,” said one Kerry adviser. “Why do it now?”

If it really is a two-man race, Kerry hopes ultimately to argue that the party can’t afford to nominate the antiwar Dean. Another Kerry adviser says, “The Democratic Party isn’t going to want to nominate another 49er—a guy who loses 49 states, the way George McGovern did in 1972.”

Take him on like they did during the SC debates? Right. To quote Gephardt, "stop with the phony, macho rhetoric".

EDIT:

This should be take "on" not "out".

[Cha]

1. God ,,,I hate that lying stuff....glad he's so happy the way the attack...

on Iraq went!

[KoKo]

2. I laugh when I see Dean compared to McGovern. First of all not so many

folks remember McGovern......so his name becomes synonymous with "anti-war loser" and who he really was gets lost.....which reminds me of Repug tactics.........and secondly, because the two are so different in personality, background and issues and the times in which either, are or were, running as candidates that it just boggles my mind that any Democrat or Repug would even try to make this link.

I remember George McGovern and McGovern is no Howard Dean and vice versa!!!

McGovern was a better man than he is being portrayed........and Dean is a better man than to let this stop him!

I think most of these "campaign operatives" and "pundits" pushing this "McGovern" comparison stuff are "has beens" and showing their age or their complete ignorance of the issues involved in this campaign.

After all they seem very surprised that Dean was able to raise so much money over the hushhhhhhhhhhh "INTERNET!"

Like the Internet is "new" to them.........Sheesh........

[whirlygigspin]

3. let's take him out Rocco...

The Kerry team sound like gangsters.

...and they wonder why people support Dean.

Sounds like some people have been living off the taxpayer
for much, much too long.

Give em' hell, Howard.

[GDK]

105. Let's all learn to read

They only sound like gangsters because killbotfactory misquoted them. All they said was that they are biding their time on when to "take on," Howard Dean, as in criticize or draw distinctions. Let's at least try to keep the discussion in the realm of reality.

[Rose Siding]

4. Dean isn't anti-war

He's anti invading countries that pose us no threat.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

5. Read the last paragraph of the article

"But some independent Democratic strategists say all this Machiavellian restraint could backfire on Dean’s rivals. When Kerry finally does unload, for example, the theme will be that Dean is a phony because he really isn’t the progressive—or liberal—he claims to be. The Kerry team will focus on the fact that Dean has supported a balanced- budget amendment, opposes gun control, now supports the death penalty in some cases and has talked about raising the retirement age for Social Security. The Kerry team will use these issues to attack Dean’s character. But, ironically, those issues could undercut the other point Kerry’s advisers want him to make: that Dean isn’t mainstream enough to win the general election. “This race isn’t about left and right in any case,” says Simon Rosenberg, an independent Democratic strategist and head of the New Democrat Network. “It’s about insider and outsider. Dean has lucked into being the only credible outsider.”

Also, this is just serving to give Dean more press. The article has a great picture of Dean at his announcement speech with the caption Howard Dean's presidential campaign pulled in more than $7 million in the second quarter, pushing him near the front of the Democratic pack"

[blm]

17. Yep...great pic of Dean...

and an article that paints Kerry as the villain...AGAIN.

Just like the American Spectator article. WHO does Fineman work for, anyway.

[SayitAintSo]

19. I over heard Fineman make some really nasty comments about Kerry

In SC at the Clyburn Fish Fry (Spring Dem Convention & debate) when Kerry made his entrance with all the media folks hulked around him. Fineman leaned over to someone standing next to him and proceeded to make very nasty, derisive remarks about Kerry. I was stunned. I have watched Fineman since then very carefully and see the 'color of his coverage' so to speak. He has a real bias against Kerry I'm afraid.

[blm]

23. I think his 'bias' is FOR Bush and he is using faux admiration

for Dean to knock out Kerry in the primaries. I just can't believe people are stupid enough to buy it.

Bush doesn't want to deal with all the CIA, FBI, and military analysts who are going to Kerry with info. Kerry is quietly building a huge case against Bush to hammer him in the contest. Fineman is just one of the many hired whores for BushInc. who will try to keep the truth away from the mass public airing it would receive during the 2004 election.

[MercutioATC]

24. It's great that Kerry is building an arsenal against Bush...I'm sure he

will turn it all over to the nominee if it's not him. Sounds like a good thing to me.

[blm]

26. Yeah...like he had to hand over BCCI to Robert Mueller?

Which experienced investigator/prosecutor/candidate do you have in mind to make such an important case?

[MercutioATC]

28. It should go to WHOMEVER wins the nomination...

If Kerry is selected, great. If it's Kucinich, he should get the ammunition to use against Bush. This is a team effort after the selection.

[blm]

33. You couldn't bring yourself to say

"Kerry has to give all his work to Dean?"

Let Kerry work doggedly on putting the case together while Dean and his supporters keep tearing him down as Bushlite. Let Kerry compile the facts and the evidence while Fineman and the other mediawhores keep dumping on him and pumping up Dean. Let's keep Bush from having to face the guy with encyclopedic knowledge of all the connections and with the prosecutorial background and top debating skills. Yeah...that will work.

[MercutioATC]

34. You seem to be pretty convinced Dean will get the nod...

...and I like that. :evilgrin:

...and you're exactly wrong about my statement. I said that Kerry should give it to whomever wins the nomination (and I mentioned Kucinich by name, not Dean). I'll expand my statement to include ALL candidates. If there's an issue to be raised; if there's a fight to be fought, we should ALL get behind whomever is nominated and give them the tools they need to win.

You disagree?

[blm]

40. wasn't my point...My criticism

is of those who feverishly work AGAINST Kerry while Kerry is doing the complex drudge work needed to compile a case against Bush.

btw...I don't think Dean will win. I'm just holding mirrors in front of his supporters who tore down Kerry for the last 7 months.

[MercutioATC]

42. Well, I'm not one of them.

I actually like several of Kerry's ideas (the FICA exemption for the first $10k earned is one of them). I just happen to agree with Dean more and think he's the better chance to beat Bush. My only point was that if anybody develops a credible case against Bush, they should allow the nominee to pursue it for the good of the party.

Besides (abosolutely NO criticism of Kerry), how much work do you think he's putting in personally on "complex drudge work"? He DOES have a great capacity for facts and he IS the one directing the campaign, but neither he nor any of the other candidates are doing the grunt work these days.

[blm]

50. That's not his style.

You'd have to be familiar with his work on BCCI, IranContra and other investigations to fully understand how hands on he is. I'm not implying that is ALL he's working on, he is after all, still campaigning with a pretty full schedule.

I think it would behoove the Dean supporters to bear in mind that there is a whole other level of work needed to bring down Bush, and Kerry doesn't need the stupid heckling and sniping by the mean faction of the Dean supporters. Certainly not all of them, but, a number of vocal "tear em all down" types.

[MercutioATC]

58. I'll agree that the attacks are not productive.

I'll express what I percieve to be the strengths and shortcomings of ALL of the candidates (and I spend much more time on the strengths). There are a few posters in EVERY camp who insist on spending the majority of their time making negative posts about one specific candidate. THAT is unproductive.

I personally disagree with the decision of many of the candidates to vote in favor of the Iraq war resolution and the Patriot Act. I personally feel that they did the politically safe thing (look what happened to people who didn't like Max Cleland). I've said so before. I do not, however, feel the obsessive need to post that opinion to every thread that says something good about a candidate. There are posters who do just that.

Expressing an opinion here is what this forum is all about. Making the same attacks over and over is just annoying.

[dsc]

36. well if Kerry cares about his country

and not just himself if he does lose the nod he will give the info up. Sorry but this isn't about Dean, Kerry, Lieberman. or any other candidate. And quite frankly Dean has no control over Fineman and you quite well know it. So don't imply this piece is Dean's doing.

[blm]

41. I didn't say it was Dean's doing...

I don't think Dean has ANYTHING to do with the press exalting him and tearing down Kerry. I do think Fineman is a Bush whore.

And you're right, this isn't about the candidates, it's about what is BEST for this nation, and that is what Kerry is working on while Dean and his supporters are tearing him down and calling him "Bushlite"....for many of them it IS all about Dean winning, no matter what.

[dsc]

45. I dare say that you will find

immensely many more anti Dean posts from you than anti Kerry ones from me. I will admit that some Dean supporters can go overboard (but I haven't seen the ones I am thinking of in a while) by no means am I one of them.

[blm]

51. I post for general consumption...

rarely, personal replies. The many Dean threads extolling virtues that I doubt get answered.

[dsc]

55. Maybe it is me

but I can't understand what you are trying to say in your post.

[blm]

57. heh...ok...

that I'm not always answering just the poster. I'm crafting the answer for the thread readers and lurkers, too. And also, it's true that I have many posts about Dean but, that is because there are many more posts by Dean supporters to answer. They chose MY candidate to attack back in January, and now my other guy, Dennis, is getting it, too. I am returning the volleys.

[MercutioATC]

60. Has it occurred to you that "returning the volleys" just perpetuates

the problem? When certain people (who shall remain nameless, but I think we can all name them) make anti-Dean posts, I reply to their posts, I don't attack Kerry (or whomever). Essentially, you're in disagreement with what somebody says or the way they say it and you respond by doing the same thing to them.

...just doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

[blm]

62. Fair defense

is desirable for ALL candidates. Only Dean should have a defense team that gets gladhanded all around? I think not. The minority at DU deserve to have their views/rebuttals heard.

[MercutioATC]

70. You must have misunderstood me

I agree with defending your candidate. If I say "I won't vote for Kerry because he voted for the Patriot Act and the Iraqi war resolution", I'd expect you to say why those issues don't stop you from voting for him.

I'm asserting that responding to criticism if your candidate by attacking another candidate (and your attacks seem to be directed toward one candidate in particular, as do the attacks of certain other nameless posters) just perpetuates the angry tone here.

[blm]

73. Didn't misunderstand...

just asserting my view. Many silent members here are grateful that I speak out, since they gave up from the earlier relentless attacks.

[MercutioATC]

77. Well, you're obviously entitled to your opinion...

It'll be interesting to see what happens when a nominee is chosen and some people have to limit their attacks to Bush....

[Vis Numar]

82. So, you are just spinning

"I'm crafting the answer for the thread readers and lurkers, too."

No it's clearer why you support Kerry, birds of a feather...

And whats all that bunk about Kerry sitting on top of the motherlode of decades old crap, who cares!

[blm]

83. Hahah...so YOU say...

I don't have to spin. The facts are the facts. The general public need facts, not the lies of those who call strong liberals "Bushlite" to cover up for their own lengthy record of compromising centrism.

Since you are confused, I'll give it to you in shorthand - Aspects of BCCI and IranContra lead to 9-11 and Iraq.

Why the heck do you think Rand Beers chose to work with Kerry?

[peaceandjustice]

59. Dean is what's best for the nation.

Dean's supporters couldn't find traction for the "Kerry is Bush lite" charge if Kerry hadn't voted for the Patriot Act and the invasion of Iraq. Without those two votes the "Bush Lite" allegation comes across as unhinged. And I've seen plenty of Kerry supporters more concerned with maligning Dean than with "what's best for the nation".

[blm]

63. Tom Harkin is "Bushlite/"

Kerry's 17 year record of strong liberal advocacy means nothing, he is "Bushlite."

Dean's 11 year record of compromising centrism proves he would not have voted for the Patriot Act or the Iraq resolution making him NOT Bushlite? Get a grip...Dean was overthetop "law and order" guy in Vermont. He said on MTP last JULY that he "tends to agree with the president." when asked about the curtailing of civil liberties.

[peaceandjustice]

65. I've said it before...

but Dean's record of "compromising centrism" is a liberal track record; Bear in mind that he governed a state represented in the House by a socialist and whose Republican Senator felt the need to leave the GOP. Dean's record is solidly left-of-center anywhere else in America except Berkeley and maybe Olympia. Nothing about his experiences as governor indicate how he would've voted on Iraq; Dean's own platform however spells out his opposition to the Iraq invasion-which, again, John Kerry voted for. Even on civil liberties you have to compare what Dean SAID, possibly off-the-cuff for as many Dean bashers have pointed out he often seems to speak without thinking his comments through, to what Kerry DID. And Kerry's 97% liberal voting record is padded out by procedural voting. John Kerry has no experience as Chief Executive of anything and has already indicated a willingness to write-off the South. I wish there were more governors in the race as four of the last five presidents had gubernatorial service.

[blm]

66. he never said he was writing off the south...

that was a Newsmax headline lie. Kerry said that Al Gore won without the South. Newsmax extrapolated from there.

Dean said last fall he would have voted for the Biden-Lugar bill. You can only go by the legislation Dean is on record supporting, not what he said after the growth of the antiwar movement.

Liberal Dems in Vermont specifically said that Dean aligned with the GOP against them much of the time.

[killbotfactory]

67. And what's wrong with Biden-Lugar?

It would have forced Bush to work through the UN to disarm Saddam, or else force Bush to prove that Iraq was an imminent threat to the US to authorize military force, and it would only be for the purposes of disarmamnet, not regime change.

Bush said the bill "tied his hands".

John Kerry said "It would require the President, before exercising the authority granted by the resolution, to send a determination to the Congress that the United States has tried to seek a new Security Council resolution or that the threat posed by Iraq's WMD is so great that he must act absent a new U.N. resolution. I believe that this approach would have provided greater clarity to the American people about the reason for going to war and the specific grant of authority that Congress was giving the President."

You keep bringing this up as if to prove Dean is some kind of hypocrit, but it is completely consistant with his views on the Iraq war. So what is wrong with it?

[blm]

72. Nothing is wrong with B-L...

it was a better bill. I have no problem with Dean's support of it. But, Bush would have still gone to war with B-L. If it had passed over the Iraq resolution, Dean would be grouped in as a Bush enabler by the same crowd who refuse see that the resolution forced Bush to the UN and boxed him in with the bogus evidence he presented there.

[peaceandjustice]

81. Kerry, Dean and the South

He never said he was writing off the South and I never claimed he did. But he DID indicate by musing that Al Gore won without the South that he may not have to win there to win either, which suggests a willingness to write it off. I think Howard Dean stands a much better chance with rural voters in Georgia and North Carolina anyways because of his position on gun control and high approval ratings from the NRA.

[blm]

84. Check the facts then...

Kerry has pretty much nailed down the Dem infrastructure in the South, especially South Carolina, and most Dem legislators down here want to campaign with a veteran and a war hero, which goes alot further than an NRA rating that the NRA will surely change when given the choice between Bush and Dean.

[Duder]

97. Advantage Dean...

Eleanor Clift, a Newsweek contributing editor and McLaughlin Group regular, is known for her accurate political predictions. She offered a few Thursday during her keynote address, “Women in Politics: The Inside Story,” at the eighth annual West Virginia Professional Women’s Forum offered by the Charleston Chamber of Commerce.

<snip>

So who can beat Bush? Political perennials Rep. Richard Gephardt, D-Mo., or Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass? Freshman Sen. John Edwards, D-N.C., a millionaire trial lawyer?

Actually, Clift kind of favors former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean.

<snip>

Dean has an edge on one issue dear to many West Virginians’ hearts, Clift said: gun control.

“The Democrats have really tried to mute” their support of gun control, Clift said, because they think that’s why Al Gore lost West Virginia and Tennessee in 2000. Democrats also think Congress went Republican during the Clinton years as backlash to the Brady Bill, she said.

“Howard Dean is a Democrat candidate endorsed by the NRA,” Clift said. “He’s from Vermont, a rural state, and he feels should be left up to states.

“Whatever you think about that issue substantively — we have the whole issue of guns moving between states — it may be a good move politically.”

http://wvgazette.com/section/Business/200307108

[peaceandjustice]

101. what facts? Here are some facts

your claim that the NRA will change their rating of Dean is not a fact. It's an opinion and an ill-informed one. Why would the NRA risk staining their credibility when their previous rating is well-known and easily revealed? Why would they risk angering an ally who could be come president? The facts are: James Clyburn, seen by many to be the major leader of South Carolina's African American community is not "nailed down" by Kerry, he's endorsing Dick Gephardt. John Edwards leads in South Carolina endorsements with more than all other candidates combined. The only Southern endorsements of Kerry I could find are Alex Sanders (Kerry can pat himself on the back over landing the endorsement of the head of the trial lawyers association! such a prominent figure!) and Harold Ford.

[blm]

103. Because Dean shifted somewhat

already saying he was for the Brady bill and pressing the "state's rights aspect". Look, McCain was prolife, but, the prolife organizations in SC supported Bush OVER McCain. If you want to go on record and say the NRA is NOT a political organization, well, I doubt many will agree with you.

I know a little something about SC....Kerry nailed down the Dem infrastructure last fall. More endorsements will be announced when they are ready to do so. They are there.

btw...Clyburn's chief of staff endorsed Kerry quite a while ago. Clyburn won't endorse anyone publically for some time.

[peaceandjustice]

106. here's a Clyburn endorsement link

Here is a link about Clyburn's endorsement of Gephardt. I guess some politics junkies can be coy and play word-games about whether or not it is an endorsement. The NRA may be a political organization but that doesn't explain why they'd risk alienating a Dean administration, I suspect they'll largely sit this one out. Even if they don't Dean can still reach out to working-class rural families who want to keep their guns AND have their children's health care covered. Anti-abortion groups were against McCain because McCain Feingold threatened their ability to influence the GOP.



http://www.thestate.com/mld/state/news/politics/5516843.htm

[He loved Big Brother]

95. Hmm..

While searching the internet for links to Dean's record as governor over the last few months, I noticed the Vermont GOP didn't seem to like Dean too much. The impression I get is that they certainly do not feel he alligned with them most of the time. :shrug:

[blm]

96. That was only post civil unions bill...

Read what progressive Dems had to say.
>>>>>
Dean kept his distance from his party’s liberals during his governorship.

"He seemed to take glee in attacking us at every opportunity and using us as a way to form alliances with more conservative elements," said former state Sen. Cheryl Rivers, a leader of the state Democrats’ liberal wing and former chairwoman of the powerful Senate Finance Committee.

Dean fashioned himself a position in the political center of Vermont politics even as the state has moved steadily to the left.
>>>>>
http://www4.fosters.com/News2003/May2003/May_19/News/reg_vt0519a.asp

[peaceandjustice]

102. sour grapes

hasn't it occurred to you that some of Dean's progressive critics were perhaps more interested in serving as governor themselves?

[GalleryGod]

53. Of course, Howie was hiding under the bed during the Vietnam era

:P andhe did pen the infamous, "George Walker,Texas Ranger" interview
which was nearly pornograpic in it'skow-towing. Only Peggy "Nooner" Noonan beats him out.

[dweller]

6. There is a difference in 'taking out' and 'taking on'

perhaps slight to some, but alot to me in context.
I'm not saying this to support either candidate, but your subject line is misleading.
after reading about kerry's 'get over it' comment, i looked here to see if he was now issuing threats, but that is only implied by your re-wording of the article.
what's the point?

dp

[killbotfactory]

7. You're right..,

I misread that part. Arg.

[belab13]

8. question the source of the article

Divide and conquer might be the intent of this particular piece.


My opinion is that the conservatives fear Kerry the most, as well they should. He's a veteran with a proven track record in the Senate. Kerry will be capable of garnering votes from labor, the environmentalists, various civil rights groups, and probably most importantly those folks that are still more concerned with homeland security than they are with their own economic well being.

[Classical_Liberal]

35. I wouldn't fear someone who falsely claims Dean is antiwar.

All Dean has to do is point out rightly that he isn't because he supported our efforts in Afghanistan, and than point to the lack WMD in Iraq, which will make people think he has good judgement, as opposed to those who supported it, who naively believed Bush's lies, or didn't care that he was lying. At the rate of death we are currently seeing in Iraq, about 300 guys will have died since Bush declared the invasion over, and Blair will be gone in England for the same offense, so that talking point will look more lame than it does already.

[Nicholas_J]

38. Again

Dean did not try to disavow and distance himself from those who were holding him up as the ANTI-WAR candidate.

This is the true definition of waffling.

[stickdog]

80. You are priceless.

Not disavowing the fact that you were against the Iraq war is the "true definition" of waffling.

Simply priceless.

If Dean said white was white, NickJ, would that make white black?

[Nicholas_J]

88. I am still totally against the war.

It is consistancy of belief, policy, and statements that indicate the most unwillingess to resort to war, except as a last resort. Only Kerry has had a consistant stance. based on constitutional, and international law.

WE are not discussing MY beliefs, but that of a candidate who's opposition to war in general, is the closest to my own .Only Kerry fits this description. Dean has been wavering and waffling all over the place. And comparing what he did as governor of Vermont, to what he claim he will do as president, I greatly doubt Deans ability to tell the truth.

I am a complete pacifist. Kerry is the only candidate who has a rational stance to avoiding war under all possible circumstances.

[CTLawGuy]

99. your candidate voted FOR the war??????

how do you explain that, being a "pacifist"

[dweller]

9. maybe a good time to check out the 'edit' feature? n/t

[killbotfactory]

12. I did.

Can you change the subject header on this new board?

[LastRobot]

10. To anyone who believes this to be true

Could you please find and study some good history books about what the Nazis and Communists did to their opponents before they swept into full tyranical power? No intention to insult, but please, please, PLEASE read carefully what comes out of the right wing machine, consider the sources, doubt anything from an "unnamed source", and pay attention? If you believe stuff like this, you will do their work for them and doom yourselves.

[Egnever]

11. I love the arrogance!

It is exactly why i wont support that campaign.

[Fleshdancer]

13. A word of caution...

Pitting Kerry against Dean is most likely Rove's stategy, not Kerry. This is suddenly starting to happen to Dean as well...pitting him against the DNC as supposedly reported by Matt Drudge tonight. The Dean blog has a posting from Joe Trippi (Dean's campaign manager) stating that the report on Drudgereport is completely false and absurd. This is a sad attempt to cause fueds within the Democratic Party.

Divide and conquer is a useful, tactical plan so let's not fall for it. At the end of the day, if Kerry wins the nomination I'm sure all the Dean supporters will vote for Kerry and if Dean wins the nomination, then Kerry supporters will back Dean. Just remember that we all share the same goal of getting bush far far away from the White House as soon as possible.

[RogueTrooper]

15. Placing the two candidates

on a head to head footing is part Kerry's current campaign strategy.

[gottaB]

14. Kerry's advantage

I'd have to second the idea that Kerry gains by Gep and Lieberman not getting attention.

Last Friday on Newshour, Margeret Warner put the "Bring `em on" question to the commentators and cited Kerry and then Dean. Gephardt's excellent "enough with the phony, macho rhetoric" was not mentioned. Dean is the topic of the day, and Kerry is regarded as the front runner. The others are being ignored.

[blm]

16. "take Howard Dean ON" is not "take Howard Dean OUT"

SPIN, SPIN, SPIN.

btw...anyone catching on to the Howard Fineman fawning over Dean the last few months, yet? Fineman even chose to slam down just ONE of the candidates for their remarks about "Bring 'em on." Kerry. Not Dean, Graham, or Gephardt. Just Kerry.

[killbotfactory]

22. Did you see the bold part at the bottom of my post?

Blahblahblah.

[valniel]

111. Close to an apology

Here is the link to the original NewsWeek article by Howard Finneman http://www.msnbc.com/news/934793.asp

I guess that is the closest we will ever come to an apology.

[polpilot]

18. Kerry needs to air a gangsta rap video including the themes expressed

in this post.

Dean '04

[kwolf68]

20. Dean?

I am not a one issue voter, but Dean supporting the Death Penalty and being against any federal legislation involving guns, means he has no chance in hell of getting my support.

Im not a single issue voter, but on most things I want a Democrat...Not just on health care.

And hell, I heard he was a bad environmental gov. in Vermont as well. Put a fork in this guy. He is nothing but window-dressing.

[killbotfactory]

21. How was he a bad environmentalist?

Well?

Also, he's not against federal gun legislation. He supports the current laws plus background checks at gun shows. He just wants to let states decide how much gun control they should have after that.

[Nicholas_J]

30. A number of Vermont Environmentalists are not happy with what Dean did

When Power Corrupts - Dean's Champion Legacy

By Sean McKeon
Howard Dean may, for all intent and purpose, be the yardstick by which governors in Vermont will be judged in the future. To some he represents the ideal politician, slippery when necessary, cautious when appropriate and ruthless in advancing his agenda through the accumulation of more than a decade of political power. In this small state, he has achieved remarkable success for an unremarkable man. But success measured in merely political terms begs the question of when does power corrupt and leave empty the place where great statesmen occupy legacies of more than passing remembrance. In short order, Dean’s legacy will be inextricably linked with some of Vermont’s darkest moments...

Dean’s actions during the Champion debate highlight the dangers of political power concentrated in the hands of a few and utilized to extract a pound of flesh from those who opposed his agenda and called him to task for his many prevarications over the last few years. Thankfully, Dean is a temporary and interchangeable caretaker of this state; he has no proprietary interest in Vermont outside his own self-aggrandizement. His ability to exploit is limited to his terms in office, which is why his legacy will always be viewed as shortsighted and transient, benefiting himself at the expense of the state. Champion is symbolic of the narrow view of current, professional politicians clashing with a citizenry that still mistakenly believes Vermont has a citizen legislature.

Absent definitive moral standards and ethics guiding its voracious appetite, government becomes something rather evil. It represents neither the citizens of the state or the God ordained mandates, which should properly bind those in authority. Liberty becomes an illusion, as cynicism abounds. “But what is liberty without wisdom and without virtue?” wrote Edmund Burke, “It is the greatest of all possible evils; for it is folly, vice, and madness, without tuition or restraint.”

In the final analysis Champion was never about wilderness verses no wilderness. That argument was a canard, a mare’s nest intended to obfuscate the “folly and vice” that currently epitomizes Vermont politics and politicians. Champion is the prenotice for what may well amount to the purging of Vermont’s rural communities and those who live and work there.

Sean McKeon is the executive director of The Northeast Regional Forest Foundation in Brattleboro, Vermont

http://www.sover.net/~auc/dean_legacy.htm

Meet Howard Dean
The Man from Vermont is Not Green (He's Not Even a Liberal)
by MICHAEL COLBY

For Vermonters who have seen Howard Dean up close and personal for the last eleven years as our governor, there's something darkly comical about watching the national media refer to him as the "liberal" in the race for the Democratic nomination for president. With few exceptions in the 11-plus years he held the state's top job, Dean was a conservative Democrat at best. And many in Vermont, particularly environmentalists, see Dean as just another Republican in Democrat's clothing.

As the son of a wealthy Long Island family (his father was a prominent Wall Street insider), Dean's used to having his golden path well greased. After dutifully attending Yale and then medical school, Dean looked for a state to launch both a private medical practice and a political career. He chose Vermont as much for its beauty as its lenient mood toward carpet bagging politicians, thus joining Brooklynite Bernie Sanders as a born again Vermonter.

Dean became Vermont's accidental governor in 1991 after Governor Richard Snelling died of a heart attack while swimming in his pool. Dean, the lieutenant governor at the time, took the state's political reins and immediately followed through with his promise not to offend the Snelling Republicans who occupied the executive branch. And Dean carried on with his right-leaning centrism for the next eleven, long years.

With his sights now set on the White House, the Dean team has been doing its best over the last year to polish up a mediocre gubernatorial record. They're also trying to position Dean as "the liberal" in the Democratic field so as to grab the much-coveted early primary voters.

And nowhere are the tall tales of Dean's liberalism more off the mark than when the Dean team begins to gush about his environmental record.

"EP under Governor Dean meant Expedite Permits, not Environmental Protection," proclaims Annette Smith, the director of Vermonters for a Clean Environment.

Smith is no stranger to Dean's environmental record, having tangled with the Dean administration on everything from the OMYA Corporation's mining to pesticide usage on Vermont's mega-farms. When Smith learned that Dean was holding a press conference at the Burlington Community Boathouse last week to celebrate his eco-legacy, she fired off emails to Vermont environmentalist calling for a protest of the event and wondering if they were "going to let Governor Dean ride out on his white horse of environmental leadership?"

It was Smith who stumbled onto Dean's official gubernatorial web site a couple of years ago and found a bucolic photo of her home town of Danby being featured with this caption: "Time stands still hereyou might even forget when it's time to go home." Ironically, the location depicted in the photo was the same spot Dean was pushing to host a massive gas pipeline, a plan that would have required timber clear-cuts and other dramatic topographical changes. The Dean team removed the photo within a couple of weeks, but not before Smith made hay with his apparent hypocrisy.

"Dean's attempts to run for president as an environmentalist is nothing but a fraud," Smith told Wild Matters. "He's destroyed the Agency of Natural Resources, he's refused to meet with environmentalists while constantly meeting with the development community, and he's made the permitting process one, big dysfunctional joke."

http://www.counterpunch.org/colby02222003.html

There are significant references to Deans poor environmental record. Like most conservatives. of ANY party affiliation, Dean supported legislation that was environmental, only in name, and was a disappointment to environmentalists, and big Vermont businesses felt very RELIEVED, but having Dean in office.

Dean’s environmental record rests more on his efforts at land conservation than on strict attention to regulatory enforcement. He pushed conservation through his support for the Housing and Conservation Trust Fund and through the Champion land deal in the Northeast Kingdom. He has been less inclined to hold business to a hard line with regard to state regulations, preferring to find compromises that would be less onerous for entrepreneurs. That’s why he has never won the hearts of some of the main environmental advocacy groups.

http://timesargus.nybor.com/Archive/Articles/Article/33318

I know you consider ANY discussion of Dean's record is BASHING...

But overall, Deans record as an environmentalist is not very good, unless you look to his own campaign site for praise of it.

[killbotfactory]

39. So...

Closing leaking landfills means he's a bad environmentalist?
Putting in emission standards more strict than Kyoto means he's a bad environmentalist?
Conserving thousands of acres of land means he's a bad environmentalist?
Moving to 1/3 renewable energy means he's a bad environmentalist?
Leading the fight to eliminate mercury in 10 years means he's a bad environmentalist?
Creating an energy efficiency to provide statewide strategies to conserve energy means he's a bad environmentalist?
Founding E-Vermont means he's a bad environmentalists?


Of all the anti-Dean articles I've read, the biggest problem they have with him seems to be that he didn't view businesses as an enemy.

[Nicholas_J]

43. Businesses are the enemy

Especially when they are union busting businesses like Wal-Mart, theat Dean brought into the state

[MercutioATC]

61. I didn't realize that Dean was the bastard son of Sam Walton...

I thought SAM decided where to put stores.

The "business is the enemy" stance will get us nowhere. Business exist to make a profit. Some are less mercenary about it than others, but it IS their primary function. Regulation is the way to control this, not declaring them the "enemy". Businesses (in the form of the people they employ and the taxes they pay) form an important segment of the economy. They're not evil, they just need good regulations under which to operate.

Dean, incidentally, is a proponent of fair labor practices. His health care plan gives breaks to businesses that provide health care for their employees. His foreign trade stance is that free trade must be tied to many issues, including the right of the workers to unionize.

[Nicholas_J]

68. Again, and again. and again.

Dean, with Republicna support, weakened the Vermont laws that made it very difficult for the BIG BOX stores to operate in Vermont.

Wal Mart rode into Vermont on Dean's watch. And had a hard time trying to get in before him.

[killbotfactory]

69. Walmart was forced to move into already developed land..

In downtown centers, to prevent sprawl, and walmart in turn drew in businesses to the downtown areas.

What a horrible man, that evil Dean!

[Nicholas_J]

71. But Wal Mart were kept OUT

Before hand.

There have been posts on this site, recommending that anyone who buys from Wal_Mart, should be banned. Impossible of course. But it is possible to keep a candidate who has worked in their behalf out of office.

[killbotfactory]

76. Some Vermont citizens think the downtown area looks better...

Since walmart moved in. Dean helped strike a compromise that stopped Walmart from introducing sprawl, destroying the environment, and killing small businesses.

"From what it looked like before," said Flood, 25, pointing to the packed Wal-Mart retail store across the street from his cafe, built to complement Rutland's signature New England charm, "it is an improvement for the look of downtown."

And despite the apparent contradiction, Flood isn't alone in his observation.

Across the country, Wal-Mart frequently draws criticism for promoting sprawl, threatening the environment and destroying local businesses. Hundreds of communities, including a handful in Florida, have fought to keep the retailer from breaking ground.

But here, in the heart of Vermont ski country, where rural is the norm and unpaved the rule, residents often credit Wal-Mart for saving their dying downtown. Now, six years after opening its doors to this community of 17,000, Rutland's Wal-Mart has become one of the nation's best examples of how to welcome the oft-vilified retailer to town, with little or no regrets.

link

Oh, that bastard Dean!

[Nicholas_J]

89. And more

Do not.

[dsc]

108. States can not ban Wal Mart

and towns haven't done much better. Wal Mart is annoying and often destructive but not illegal. Dean did get them to do something they haven't done anywhere else. They build in downtowns not outside of them and in existing buildings not huge boxes they have put up. Unless Dean was prepared to ban any new stores in Vermont he couldn't ban Wal Mart under those conditions. You can't selectively enforce zoning laws.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

75. "Tyrant!" "Monster!" (n/t)

.

[MercutioATC]

74. That's not what you said.

You said that Dean brought them into the state, which is a totally false and inflammatory statement. Dean supported legislation that he felt was good for the Vermont economy. I realize that Wal-Mart is not labor-friendly, but they ARE a business that brings jobs and revenue to cities.

The whole "big box" issue reminds me of the "superfarm" issue. Small family farms in this country have been virtually eliminated by the large commercial "superfarms" (my grandparents' farm included). Is this sad? Yes. We're losing a bit of our past. Is it a bad thing? Absolutely not. In our economy, the consumer decides who lives and who dies. The consumers in this counrty have decided that they want one-stop shopping and low prices. Superfarms and big box stores give them this.

[killbotfactory]

78. Not to mention, the restrictions placed on Walmart helped Vermont

"From what it looked like before," said Flood, 25, pointing to the packed Wal-Mart retail store across the street from his cafe, built to complement Rutland's signature New England charm, "it is an improvement for the look of downtown."

And despite the apparent contradiction, Flood isn't alone in his observation.

Across the country, Wal-Mart frequently draws criticism for promoting sprawl, threatening the environment and destroying local businesses. Hundreds of communities, including a handful in Florida, have fought to keep the retailer from breaking ground.

But here, in the heart of Vermont ski country, where rural is the norm and unpaved the rule, residents often credit Wal-Mart for saving their dying downtown. Now, six years after opening its doors to this community of 17,000, Rutland's Wal-Mart has become one of the nation's best examples of how to welcome the oft-vilified retailer to town, with little or no regrets.

http://gainesvillesun.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20030709/LOCAL/307080024/1007

[Nicholas_J]

91. B.S.

There are many examples world-wide, of job creation by supporting smaller local businesses, over large mega-corpopratio. Dena just prefers big business, to creative solutions.

[MercutioATC]

93. Smaller local businesses CAN'T compete...

and THAT'S the real issue here. I want to go to a hardware store with CD's and gardening tools and the last-minute groceries I forgot. So does everybody else. You don't disagree with their buisness model, you disagree with the way they treat workers. So do I. To state, however, that smaller local businesses fulfill the desires of the modern consumer is simply foolish.

[dsc]

109. No he prefers not to get sued

for selectively enforcing zoning laws. Imagine if pot were to become legal but towns were to use zoning laws to ban it. You would be up in arms yet you want Dean to do that with Wal Mart.

[dsc]

31. Supporting or not supporting Dean is your perorgative

but please get accurate informantion before making your decision. You claim that Dean is in favor of no new federal gun control laws. That is false. He is in favor of the assult weapons ban (which will need renewal by 04) and closing the gun show loophole (which would be new). I won't claim his position on gun control is terrific or even good. But I do ask just how do you think anything else is going to get passed? We had a popular President who favored gun control and a horrific even which illustrated the need for it. Yet nothing happened. We couldn't even close the gun show loophole.

[RogueTrooper]

25. On second reading

I am not sure if

a) Kerry has a very bad strategy. If I am reading this right, their masterstroke is to paint Dean as a centerist?

b) Kerry has no strategy at all, hence the "We'll do this later" line, and this is the best they can think up in a short space of time.

[blm]

27. Fineman is REALLY on our Dem side...dontcha know?

.

[Nicholas_J]

37. No...

Kerry, Edwards, and Graham have not been amused by Deans attack style of campaigning, and worse, mis-representing the actions of those in Congress to the public. He presents his opinion of things like the Iraq act as giving the president a "Blank Check", whihc his supporters have converted into "Voting for War" and it was nothing of the sort. Fortunately, they are not as hot headed and impulsive as Dean is and will wait for whatever they bring up to be the WORSE possible time to Dean to bring it up.

There are even large numbers of Dean supporters claiming that the other candidates VOTED for the Bush tax cuts, when none of them did.

The DLC democrats are simply planning to treat Dean as he has treated them.

Bottom line, there is MUCH in Deans record as governor that would not bear scrutiny, but since LACK of name recognition, and the lack of knowledge about his record, cuts both ways, There is Far more that is not known about him that can be used to use Deans own tactics with, and they can have a field day with this, placing Dean in a position of trying to defend and explain his many conservative decisions made as Governnor. They will wait until closer to the first promaries and caucuses in order to start using these things on all sides. The point at which MANY more people will be deciding who to choose.

[RogueTrooper]

49. I think you are the man who is praying twice as hard as before

to be honest.

You have been prediciting the demise of Howard Dean for quite some time. It still has not happened yet. In fact, the Dean campaign keeps going from strength to strength.

The DLC can "Bring It On" baby. Every time they have opened their mouths we have made $$$. Lots of $$$.

Tell my this. Is Dean going to be brought down on his record by the same people who brought down George Bush on his record? Howard Dean's record in Vermont is a good on. Otherwise why would people have re-elected him so many times?

The last time he stood for election he faced down the Religious Right. Has any other candidate done this?

[Nicholas_J]

87. Deans polling

Has not statistically improved at all in six months.
And it is out in the real world, and not the Internet, where the elections will occur. The fact that Dean can raise money on the Internet, and has support on the Internet, even his total support that they can number by counting those who join pro Dean orgtainzations, is still less than 200,000. A far cry from the support of 14 million other voter, many of whom still do not know who he is, and even more, who do know who he is, and do not suppoort him.

There are more people in Kerry's own state of Massachusetts alone, whosupprt him for the president, than Dean can show for the entire United States.


Same for Gephardt, and most of the other candidates. As far as can be told, Deans support on the Internet iself is dropping. The polls that led up to the MoveON primary had Dean at over 50 percent. Two months later, Dean had dropped into the low 40's. Even his meetup.com figfures are rising at slower rates asa percentage of total. is momentum is falling.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

94. "Momentum is falling"?

And so is the sky, apparently...

Too funny.

[CTLawGuy]

100. Sad....

thats what your attacks are....

[CWebster]

29. Kerry has to be very careful in his approach

Were he to use the Republican spin to challenge Dean he will risk alienating Dean's supporters, who are unlikely to be drawn in by the bs.

Kerry boxed himself in by spreading himself too thin - to be all things to all people. Now, he is weak on every front and has no popular appeal whatsoever. He can ill afford to be cocky.

[DrFunkenstein]

46. You can ill afford to claim any sort of grounds for your attack

First of all, why would he use Republican spin to challenge Dean? Where do you come up with this stuff? If anything, alot of people are claiming Dean occupies the "No Spin Zone" of the party, which is foolish.

Dean and Kerry have almost exactly the same stance on the Iraq invasion, except Dean spins (or spinned) it as anti-war, and Kerry spins it as diplomacy with the backing of force. Both have very good political reasons for spinning their positions as they have, neither of which I think is some sort of fraud.

Then you say that Kerry has "spread himself thin," when he has made a point of going to anti-war factions and telling them straight out that he is by no means any sort of pacifist. He doesn't say that to get applause - he knows that many will, in fact, sit on their hands. He tells activists that there is no point in bringing up the 2000 election over and over. Why? The activists are still seething at the theft of democracy, but Kerry is telling them outright that it has little practical value.

Kerry doesn't apply to the Left end of the party with applause lines. He does so because he is the most progressive candidate outside of Kucinich with a record of championing issues like media democracy, corporate crime, renewable energy, election reform, ecological protection, rebuilding infrastructure, and fuel-efficiency. I could go on for a long time, but you get the picture. His record is no secret, so you are more than willing to check it if you like.

Then maybe you can come back and attack him with something more than some half-thought theories about weakness and popular appeal. He is a top-tier candidate with the largest war chest to date despite Dean's impressive second quarter run. His war record and foreign policy experience play well with moderates and conservatives, while his domestic agenda plays well with the Left. That is not "spreading yourself too thin." That is called substantive appeal.

I'm not here to bash Dean, your preferred candidate, but I'll be damned if I let you try to knock down a damn fine candidate with a couple of ideas you haven't taken the time to think out.

[killbotfactory]

54. Kerry already used republican spin to attack Dean..

One of his campaign managers said that Dean wanted to give the UN a veto on US national security, echoing a statement that Tom Delay made.

Kerry's attacked him from the right on national security, so I don't see why he wouldn't do it again.

[DrFunkenstein]

86. I Already Said That Kerry Was Wrong

For implying that Dean's awkward quote about America eventually losing its dominance was a sign of weakness. Insider talk in the media suggested that Kerry's campaign people like Lehane were goading him to take on Dean. After that charge, and a few mumbles at the first debate, Kerry focused exclusively on Bush as he had before.

I've never heard this charge you're presenting. Do you have a link?

[killbotfactory]

104. Here's a link or two

Jim Jordan back in March

On Iraq, Kerry campaign manager Jim Jordan told the Associated Press that Mr. Dean wanted to give the U.N. "veto power over national-security decisions," and that it was "an extraordinary proposition, one never endorsed by any U.S. President or serious candidate for the Presidency."

Tom Delay in February

Dr. Dean disqualified himself for national leadership, Mr. DeLay said, by suggesting that the decision to go to war should be made by the United Nations. "If he wants to be president of the United States, but subject the United States to decisions by the U.N., he lacks the sound judgment needed for responsible national leadership," Mr. DeLay said.

[Nicholas_J]

90. Dean is the only candidate...

Who ever had a REPUBICANS FOR... organization that supported them:

Some Republicans back Dean
By TRACY SCHMALER Vermont Press Bureau

MONTPELIER - Democratic Gov. Howard Dean got a boost from the other side Thursday when a group of prominent Republicans turned out to support his re-election bid.

Led by South Burlington attorney William Gilbert, a core group of 11 Republicans said they believed Dean has proven his ability to lead the state in a fiscally responsible direction and for that reason, and his nine years of experience, he is their choice over GOP candidate Ruth Dwyer.

"In my judgment, in the last nine years Governor Dean has served the whole state of Vermont well," said Stephan Morse, former speaker of the House.

"There are issues that I disagree with him on, but...never in the end have I ever had any question that the governor has good, sound fiscal management."

One of those issues was Act 60, a law that many Republicans have opposed. Several times during the news conference, the Republicans said they disagreed with some of Dean's policies but reiterated their support for his fiscal conservatism.

Even Dean acknowledged that his fiscal policy was the common ground he shared with the nine men and two women at the table, most of whom admitted to voting for Dean in the last election.

The group, known as "Republicans for Dean" represents the first organized GOP endorsement for Dean in any of his five campaigns

http://www.rutlandherald.com/election2000/repbackdean.html


Fears of schism pervasive in GOP
By TRACY SCHMALER Vermont Press Bureau

When Ruth Dwyer walked into the Montpelier Room at the Capitol Plaza the day after defeating William Meub, the excitement was palpable...

Dean is holding a news conference today to unveil a "Republicans for Dean" committee headed by William Gilbert, who worked in the administration of the late Gov. Richard Snelling...

http://www.rutlandherald.com/election2000/fears.html


Top GOP will stick with Dwyer, but some back Dean
By TRACY SCHMALER Vermont Press Bureau

MONTPELIER - As some Republicans prepare to come out in support of Democratic Gov. Howard Dean, leaders within the party have lined up behind GOP nominee Ruth Dwyer.

From Sen. James Jeffords, R-Vt., to state Treasurer James Douglas and former party chairman Allen Martin, well-known Vermont Republicans said Tuesday they would stay loyal to the GOP ticket from top to bottom.

Meanwhile, a group of Republicans headed by William Gilbert of Burlington is expected to announce their support for Dean this week.

"An awful lot of moderate Republicans feel as I do, that the best candidate is the person with the most experience and the capacity to govern Vermont - that person is Howard Dean," Gilbert said. "It's the people of Vermont who come first, not the party." ...

Gilbert was clearly breaking camp, however.

He said he started to organize the "Republicans for Dean" committee after learning that there were other Republicans who felt as he did.

"We're not a two-issue state, being governor means dealing with a lot of complicated issues," said Gilbert, who spent six years working as general counsel and later secretary of administration for the late Gov. Richard Snelling.

Gilbert was clearly breaking camp, however.

http://www.rutlandherald.com/election2000/gop_dean.html

I do not think Kerry will not have a hard time making an argument about Dean and his closeness to REpublicans.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

92. Repubs for Dean is great

My husband is a Republican(I know, but he's lovable), and I am working on him. He will hopefully be a Republican for Dean. This is far better, IMO, than being a Republican for Bush!

[polpilot]

110. Since Fall '02 savvy polical observers have cited Dean's across-the-

political-spectrum attractiveness as THE MOST IMPORTANT aspect of his candidacy. The ability he has of attracting across-party-line support is THE REASON for his Vermont political success.

Only one of extremely limited political vision would not be able to interpret the consequences of 'a group of prominent republicans' supporting a Dean candidacy.

Dean '04...A Real Presidential Candidate

[dsc]

32. I wouldn't trust Feinman

if my life depended on it. He is though good for getting the GOP spin of the day. If Kerry's people are talking to this toad at all that is not good. They should know better. But until a real news person prints this I am not going to necessarily believe anything in it.

[IndianaGreen]

44. Who is advising Kerry, Al From?

It sure sounds like the kind of crap he posts on the DLC website!

Based on what Kerry's advisors said, can we safely infer that Kerry is solidly for the WAR, and that there is no point in Kerry continuing to play cute games with the public?

[DrFunkenstein]

47. Conservatives Safely Infer, We Don't Take Cheap Shots

Its called straw man fallacy. Make up your opponents argument for them, based on "inference," than take apart the argument you yourself made! In other words, it's bull.

[PATRICK]

48. childish or childlike advisors?

WHY do they leak these things- if they do. I suppose it might have an oblique strategic method that will appear clever- if Kerry wins. It simply exposes the fact that the advisors are dumb and not averse to trashing Dean's base while airing their laundry in the general media like some Jerry Springer confessional rubes.

These dinosaurs worry me more than the candidate and IMHO are holding them back from new possibilites- like getting in touch with the buried REAL world.

And yes, Kerry very much is disguised by the Dean phenomenon. Kerry seems the most liberal of the bunch, in the hawkish Kennedy mold.

Also he is disguised from being the non-DLC candidate frontrunner, keeping Edwards out of the limelight.

I KNOW it is too much to ask, but if ALL candidates would just let each other get full and equal access to the people and let THEM decide, it might just be better for themselves, the party, the nation and humanity. Hello? Ancient politico ninja turtles, hello?

[foo_bar]

79. confuse them with the truth

It's the post-modern political strategy: when you want to throw your opponent for a loop, tell him what you're really thinking and he'll assume the opposite. Rove was really endorsing Dean, and Kerry really has a thick dossier.

[blm]

52. IG goes on record believing Fineman?

Yes...I'm sure he's not carrying water for BushInc anymore. He's honest, now....really...no agenda at all.

[keek]

56. bring it on

as the shrub would say...

[primavera]

64. Wow, deja vu!

People in DC said the same thing about Barry's post drug conviction mayoral campaign. He didn't have any of support among the monied, upper classes in the District, and no one thought that the poor and indigent minority communities in DC would ever go to the trouble of actually voting, so they could be safely discounted. Surprise, surprise. For all of their money and influence, the upper crusties could still only cast one vote, and it turned out there were a hell of a lot more poor and disenfranchised people whose votes counted just as much as those of rich people. Who knew?

[election_2004]

85. a two-man race...

between Kerry and Dean is just fine with me. I'll gladly support either of them against Bush.

If part of Kerry's strategy is to knock out the other Democrats and keep the focus on "Kerry vs. Dean"...I say all the better, especially if it ultimately knocks out Lieberman!

[DrFunkenstein]

98. I Totally Agree, So Long As They Don't Play Nasty-Nasty

Clearly Dean and Kerry share no love for one another, but I would be more than happy to keep the others out of the race. Kerry and Dean are my top two choices, and I'd be more than happy to kick out the seven dwarves.

If Clark entered the mix, the political calculus would certainly change, though. Clark would be a strong choice on his own, and would certainly give tremendous weight to anyone who had him on their ticket, perhaps tipping the balance.

I think Kerry/Clark (why do I always think of Kelly Clarkson when I say that?) would be an unbeatable ticket against Bush/Cheney, but I have to admit that a Dean/Clark run would be pretty strong, too.

PS - I'd love to have Al Sharpton along to keep things amusing! That guy needs a TV show!

[morningglory]

107. I was a McGovern delegate

I was born the year they invented rope, as George Gobel used to say, if you don't remember GG then you are probably not old. McGovern picked a running mate, who was found to be taking anti-depressants or something and the repub's went insane. There was no defense against it, as being 'crazy' was not acceptable at that time. What kind of psych med's do you think Monkey Boy needs today? I would be grateful if he was taking something. It is a different world.