A thought for parents about that "speak in a calm, quiet tone" advice you've probably received.

[Orrex]

It's 99.99% bullshit. Not only has it never worked in my experience--not once, not under any circumstances, and regardless of repetition or consistency--it also wouldn't have worked on me when I was a child. Moreover, I've never known any parent for whom it actually works as advertised. Except one, and in that case the child snapped to attention because he knew that the calm, quiet tone preceded some nightmarish punishment once all witnesses had left the scene.

I know, I know. I'm about to be stampeded by enlightened, progressive parents who speak to their screaming angels in the famous calm, quiet tone, and I'm sure that they'll report that it works like a charm for each of them. Sure, I'm sure.


But years and years and years of practical experience shows that it doesn't work at all. Who came up with this bullshit? And to what possible end?

[MicaelS]

1. Reminds me of that Looney Tunes cartoon "Brother Brat"

Where Porky is the clueless babysitter for a Rosie the Riveter. She gives him a book on Child Psychology which Porky goes through, but nothing works. The mother shows back up, and shows Porky how to REALLY use the book, which is to beat the kid's ass.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiYxWhC1omE

[Orrex]

8. LOL. Sounds about right.

At least two or three times each day I reflect that, at least in terms of the non-beating of our children, we're doing than my parents did. My children routinely commit offenses that would have earned me a spectacular thumping back in the day.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. You are absolutely right, my dear Orrex...

I found that, when pushed right up to my limits, that the loudest, angriest voice I had worked the best.

And even though it sounds as though I was being calculating, I wasn't. That angry voice emerged when I had taken all I could, and I could not help it.

My kids always responded appropriately. They knew I meant business.

Calm works when everyone is being calm, before the storm has really hit...

[Maine-ah]

3. it does have it's place

yelling at your child doesn't always work either. I guess it depends on the situation, and the child.

[Orrex]

7. I think that you've stated it exactly

The "always speak softly" philosophy is as absurd, in practical terms, as would be an "always shout loudly" philosophy.

[Brickbat]

4. I have a tone that is low but furious. And when we were in public and my kids acted up, I would

whisper to them in a slow, furious, almost silent way that pretty much put the fear of God into them. I didn't beat my children; I just found the right tone that worked for them.

I've also yelled. It depends on the crime, location and my patience level. :shrug:

[HERVEPA]

5. Worked fine for my kids

[Orrex]

6. That sounds about right

The effective, softly-spoken parent is a magical creature found only online and in the imagination of the believers.


More power to you if it's true as you describe. That would make you the 0.01% that I mentioned, I guess.

[monmouth]

9. A medium boot to the ass always worked fine for my perfect sons...lol..n/t

[Mutley]

10. I see this every day.

Billy is throwing merchandise all over the floor. Mom says in a calm, quiet tone:

Mom: Billy, stop that.
*Billy ignores her*
Mom: Billy, stop it now.
*Billy continues ignoring her*
Mom: Billy, Mommy said stop it now.
*Billy is oblivious*
Mom: Billy, just please listen to Mommy.
*Billy couldn't care less*
*Mommy looks at me*
Mom: I just don't get why he won't listen.

[surrealAmerican]

21. The way to make that work is:

Mom (calmly, making eye contact): Billy, stop that and stand here by me.
*Billy ignores this*
Mom: We're leaving.
*Mom escorts Billy outside*

This usually only happens a couple of times before the child pays attention to what Mom says. He may still argue, but he'll stop throwing stuff.

[struggle4progress]

11. That's strange: it almost always works for me when I talk to other people's kids.

[Orrex]

13. That's because they don't know that you're (probably) not going to hurt them

But with their own parents, the kids no that no real threat of harm is imminent, so they know that the quiet voice doesn't mean anything, no matter how many times it's repeated.

[struggle4progress]

14. Nah. It's partly because I sound friendly and reasonable and concerned -- and mostly because

I'm not the parent

I seem to be, and might actually turn out to be, a good guy who likes the kid! So there's incentive to play nice with me, and there's typically no big emotional upside to yanking my chain

[Orrex]

15. If they have you believing that, then they've already won the battle!

:evilgrin:

Never give the little devils an inch, and never let them think that you think that you're on the right track. That way madness lies...

[dixiegrrrrl]

12. Au contraire.....always has worked for me.

Because the minute they ignored my normal voice, I GOT UP, went over to them, and took them to their room for a long long time out.They could scream all they wanted, but in their room ( with no toys) they went.

They learned actions speak louder than words, and looks speak volumes.
And I never repeated myself...except to say "what did you just hear me say"?
THAT I said...twice.

Never laid a hand on them, except to put them in their room.

Must have been attitude. Discipline and behavior was not a subject for long discussions.

This was back in late 60's/early 70's.

[JoePhilly]

16. Most parents are inconsistent, so they don't actually do it all the time.

1) The EASIEST way for a parent to get a kid to STOP doing something is to hit them. When I say EASIEST, I also mean FASTEST.

YELLING is a verbal smack.

If you want to do it well, here is how you must start.

When the child is in the crib, you have a baby monitor. When one of you needs to go in to console a crying child, the other parent LISTENS. The child wants something. And will manipulate the parent to get it. More time. One more story. A drink.

The parent who LISTENS has to figure out what the kids really wants.

If you start with this ... after each night, each parent will LEARN the other's weakness, which the child is also learning. This is why a child will often call for one parent or the other ... the kid has a plan. When the child calls for parent A, send parent B. This throws off the child. They have not planned for this.

2) Pick your battles. Many parents lose this battle because the draw endless lines, only to erase them. Don't sweat the small things, win the battles that matter and you will never have to raise your voice or hit your child.

I have 3 ... now 18, 12, 10 ... and by the age of 3 or 4, we could take them to any restaurant. We taught them how to act correctly in McDonald's. They loved McD's. So if they acted up there, the next time they asked to go, we said no, because of the way they behaved. This takes maybe 2 trips.

My kids have been saying please and thank you to every waitperson in every restaurant regardless of where we are ever since. If a waiter comes to the table and sets a water glass down, my daughters will stop talking, thank the waiter, and then return to their discussion. I regularly see adults ignore the wait staff in the same situation.

Yelling at them is EASY. Thinking about what causes a kid to act up is HARD. And many grown ups do not have the patience to do it.

The funny thing is that if you do it early, and you focus on WHY you kids act up, by the time your kids are 4 or 5, you will have parents of other kids regularly complimenting the behavior of your kids in public.

And its a great feeling for the kids, every time it happens.

[Orrex]

18. Our children are complimented for their behavior everywhere we go

Their public behavior isn't--and has never been--a problem.

It's always been a matter of manipulation, and I've always been aware of it. I can post links to years-old threads here at DU where I discussed the same issue. Additionally, strategies of consistency that worked remarkably well for our first child worked not at all for our second, and vice versa. Consistency is impossible when the children's responses are so categorically different.


Incidentally, I flatly reject the "pick your battles" mantra, because you have literally no way to know which battle will turn into a long-term nightmare, so you might as well tell someone to pick the right lottery numbers.

Yelling at them is EASY. Thinking about what causes a kid to act up is HARD. And many grown ups do not have the patience to do it.

If it were only about patience, then it wouldn't be a problem. But very often the real-world demands of time and inescapable obligation move the issue from "I can wait all day for you to put your shoes on" to "if you don't put your shoes on right now, then we won't be able to pick your brother up from the bus stop, and the school will notify CYS," for instance.

Here are two facts that I have never--and I mean never--seen refuted:

1. Yelling at a child is a terrible thing to do.
2. Sometimes there is no alternative to yelling at a child.

Let me be clear: we very seldom yell at our children, and yelling is never the first response except to get the child's attention when he's about to run into traffic or some similar physical danger.

And here's a question that I must ask of the "calm, quiet voice" parents: when your child doesn't listen when you speak in that voice, what do you do? Do you repeat your calm, quiet statement? How many times? And what do you do when they ignore you or walk away while you're talking to them?

[JoePhilly]

20. Your response is contradictory.

You claim their public behavior has never been a problem, and then go on to describe how different they are and that's why consistency doesn't work.

First, when I talk about consistency, I mean relative to EACH child, not necessarily ACROSS children. Children are individuals and will, by necessity, respond differently. Your job is to understand them as individuals, and then be consistent with them.

As for picking battles ... let's take your child who does not want to wear shoes. You have many options here. The first is to let them not wear shoes. Our bus stop is about 75 yards down the street, not too far for a kid to not wear shoes. Or, you let them not wear shoes, and you DRIVE down and leave that child in the car. Or, if this is a recurring issue, you get them into shoes earlier, before it can become an "urgent issue".

Also ... threatening the smaller child with CYS if you don't meet your other child at the Bus is a pretty silly tactic. You have threatened them with a consequence that they don't have the mental ability to understand. Don't be surprised if they don't respond well to it.

Now, to these questions that no one seems to be able to answer. They are fairly self answering.

As for #1: Its not that yelling is a terrible thing. It won't kill the kid. But when you find yourself yelling at a small child you should see it as YOUR failure, not theirs. What were the conditions leading up to you yelling? Kids feed on your emotions. If you are running around behind schedule, scrambling, it effects them. And they are likely to react in a similar way. It is common that when a parent gets distracted while rushing around, a young child will feel neglected, and act up just to get your attention. Arguing with you, and getting you to yell was the child's goal.

A better approach is for you to leave the room. The child wants your attention. Leaving the room ensures they don't get it for screaming and arguing with you. They need to find some other way to get your attention. You want to find a way to give them attention that has nothing to do with the shoes.

As for #2 ... that same line is used by people who hit their kids and think that is an effective technique. "Sometimes there is no alternative to hitting a child." Again, both are failures of the parent not the young child.

Now, as your child ages, they will argue with peers, and the fact that at times adults raise their voices will make sense. When an adult yells at a small child, it is perceived as a threat of physical violence. As kids get older, you can raise your voice and they will understand that your are expressing your frustration and not threatening them physically.

What about when they "don't listen" or "walk away"? You seem to be confused. When you speak calmly to a child, you don't simply repeat the same command over and over (i.e., "How many times?"). In almost every case, the child wants something. Your challenge is to figure out what they want. If you get good at this, you can anticipate what it is that they want. And you can see these issues coming.

A final question for you.

How do you feel after yelling at one of your kids? Good, or Bad? How does the child feel? Good or Bad?

I would submit that no parent wants to yell and scream at their kids. In the parent-child relationship, the parent is in charge. We get to make the decisions. And so, I would suggest a simple change in mind set. When you find yourself yelling at one of your kids, make note of it, track where and when it happened, and view it as YOUR failure ... after all, you are in charge. And part of your job is to figure out what happened, and why.

Don't be surprised when you see patterns. The same situations repeating. A child who has a "melt-down" in the evening on the days you work late. A child who won't do what you want when they are tired or hungry. So on. And as you noted, each kid is different ... its your job to figure out how to manage the situation so that yelling at them is not something you feel you need to do regularly.

[Orrex]

23. As I've mentioned before, yelling at them is not something that "I feel I need to do regularly."

As for #2 ... that same line is used by people who hit their kids and think that is an effective technique. "Sometimes there is no alternative to hitting a child." Again, both are failures of the parent not the young child.

Since you didn't actually answer that question but instead tried to neutralize it as though the described situation never happens, I feel no incentive to answer your questions.

However, I will clarify one point: I don't threaten my child with CYS, because that would be pointlessly cruel and the child would have no way to understand it in any case. Instead, I was summarizing two different but real situations; in my child's school district, if the parent fails to meet the child at the bus stop three times, then CYS is indeed notified. Again, I don't say this to the child, but it's a fact that instills the situation with a bit of urgency than a calm, quiet voice can realistically address in the time available.

The suggestions that you offer ("let him go barefoot," "leave him in the car," and "put his shoes on earlier") are great suggestions when they work, and when they do work then that's more or less how we handle the situation. The question isn't "what do you do when consistency and a calm, quiet voice works?" but rather "what do you do when these don't work?" It's easy to believe that you're in control when the situation is easily controlled, but when the situation is governed by necessities outside of your control, what do you do?

This is the question that "calm-voiced" parents never seem to be able to answer: what do you do when a situation inescapably requires immediate action contrary to the wishes of a stubborn child? The answer is typically something along the lines of "since I am the one in control, I don't let those situations arise" or "such situations do not exist." Those are nice sentiments, but they don't match up with reality very often.

Can you truly imagine no situation in which a calm, quiet voice is insufficient?

[Chan790]

17. It worked fantastically with my youngest brother...

but only if the calm quiet tone was being used to express sentiments of extreme violence.

"Jacey, if you don't stop pulling the cat's ears, she's going claw your face off and I'm going to laugh."

"Jacey, so help me, if I have to get out of this chair, we're going to bury you with the tulips."

"If I ever hear you say that again to a little girl, I'm gonna hold you down while she stomps your teeth in."

[Rochester]

19. If I can compare it to...

...how parents try to soothe their screaming brats by simply saying "Shhhhh...." to them as I try to eat at the next table without the caterwauling driving me nuts, and it is about as effective, that means it is not effective at all.
Did I mention I hate kids?

[LiberalAndProud]

22. My daughter says it doesn't work for her either.

I guess everyone must find their own style. The quiet voice works for me. I can't tell you why, it just does.

[RadiationTherapy]

24. I don't force my child to bend to my will using violence.

I force her to bend to my will using reward and the removal thereof.

Violent voices are similar to grabbing the kid and forcing them.

[Orrex]

25. Yeah, I've heard that one before

And when "reward and removal thereof" don't work, what then?

[RadiationTherapy]

27. Then we all move on in life.

Can you please give me an example when violence is a better solution than negotiation?

[Orrex]

28. When it is the lesser evil, obviously.

If your child is about to run out into traffic and isn't responding to your reward/denial strategy and is also ignoring your calm, quiet voice, do you stand by and let the child run into traffic? Or do you raise your voice as needed to get the child's attention before the oncoming U-Haul truck flattens him? And let's suppose that you're wheeling the sibling's stroller downhill at the time, so you can't simply race forth to grab the soon-to-be splattered child. In such a case I submit that an urgently raised voice is superior to a dead child, though you are free to disagree.

The problem with your stated strategy, as with all absolutist views, is that it simply denies that situations exist in which the strategy doesn't work.

It would be nice if reality conformed to your strategy in all cases, but what do you do when it doesn't?

[RadiationTherapy]

30. Yes, but that is yelling TO my child - as I would anyone about to be hit.

That sort of immediate response to her name and her parents' voices are not a function of angry, violent conditioning.

C'mon, now. That's not an example of what you mean. You mean when the kid is 'bothering' someone (like at a restaurant) and the parents use their calm voices to stop the kid and the kid don't listen - right?

[Orrex]

33. Well, if that's the case, than I need to back-pedal and agree with you

Yelling at the child in a situation when it is more effective to remove child from the situation is abusive yelling, and you're right that the restaurant scenario differs from the busy street scenario.


But when you put it like that, perhaps you illuminate something that I haven't understood. It's been my impression that that "calm voice" crowd will admit no circumstance in which it is appropriate to yell, in other words, that yelling is always violent or abusive. Your correct assertion that the two cited examples are different (restaurant/street) shows me that my impression was erroneous.

[RadiationTherapy]

34. The 'calm voice' crowd for you is synonymous, I presume, with "friend" parents?

The notion of parenting as a "friend" has, rightfully, I think, been mocked and dismissed. But I do not find declining to use violent voice and imagery or physical violence the same as being your kid's "friend".

There are things that will be and things that will not be - simply because Daddy will make it so - but I minimize forcefulness and work toward manipulation through other means. I do, on occassion, lose my shit though. hahahahahahaha.

[Fleshdancer]

26. Doesn't it depend on the age of the child?

My daughter went through the typical tantrum demon phase when she was 3 and NO voice would have helped. Instead, I just refused to engage verbally until she calmed down. If we were at home, I would simply walk away. If we were at a restaurant, I would pick her up and we would sit in the car, etc. Why? Because it worked with her.

Then she turned 4 and magically turned into a sane human being, YAY! I don't need to raise my voice right now (she's not a teenager yet so never say never, right?), but if she gets angry, I do allow her the time to cool off...something I wish more people would do with others in general.

She's a very low key, easy going kind of person though. She doesn't push her boundaries much and she doesn't talk back. I wish I could take full credit for how "easy" she is to parent, but it's just her temperament. So maybe it's age and personality type that dictates what parenting tactics work the best for each kid.

[Orrex]

29. Certainly. Depends on the age, maturity, and tempament of the child and also upon the situation

I should hope that the hyperbole of the OP was apparent, but I suppose that I should clarify that the "quiet voice" strategy works fine when it works, and that's not the question. The question is "what do we do when the quiet voice doesn't work?" Some have suggested either that it always works or that when it doesn't work it's the fault of the parent.

That would be a simpler reality, by far.

[RadiationTherapy]

31. By 'work'

do you mean immediate obedience to the orders of the parents even if a child doesn't understand why they must obey?

[Orrex]

32. No.

[woo me with science]

35. I remember a study from years ago

that tried to correlate kids' empathy development with different parenting styles when the kid hurt another kid.

According to the study, the kids with the least empathy had parents who either went ballistic screaming at them about what they had done, or just reasoned with them very calmly.

The kids with the most empathy had parents who were moderately emphatic and emotional when scolding them. The researchers hypothesized that some emotional intensity drew the kids' attention to what they had done wrong and alerted them of the importance of putting themselves in the shoes of others. Not enough emotional emphasis, and they didn't see hurting the other kid as highly important. Too much screaming, and they got worried about their own safety or parental relationship and couldn't focus on the other kid's feelings.

It was more complicated than that, because you also had to take kid personality factors into consideration. Sensitive kids needed less emotional impact than less sensitive kids to get the message...but the results were interesting nonetheless. We have emotion for a reason, and to take it out of parenting seems pretty unnatural.

[Odin2005]

36. When I'm disciplining my 4yo nephew I use a low-pitched, commanding voice.

It seems very good at getting him to absorb the dos, don'ts, and whys into his head.