Would you encourage your child to tell on a class mate who was cheating?

[NJmaverick]

why?

[rug]

1. No, I would encourage him to try blackmail.

[NJmaverick]

3. clever

[melman]

2. No

Snitches get stitches.

[Deja Q]

9. And that's why we need proper principals, with principles. The system has devolved enough.

Welcome to DU, BTW. :)

[NJmaverick]

4. To answer my own question, no I don't think I would

not really his or her business, so best to let it go. As they say the only person the cheater is really cheating is themselves. Now if my child were in an academically competitive situation, my answer would probably change.

[Deja Q]

11. If it affects everybody in society, then it's everybody's business.

I have to disagree with you, sternly, about this topic.

[NJmaverick]

80. If they are not grading on a curve and the student isn't near the top of their class

does it really affect anyone else?

[ElboRuum]

187. No it isn't.

There are many things in this society that affect everyone but do not come under the perview of it being their "business". By business, I assume you to mean, having or perceiving to have a legitimate and concrete say in the process or the outcome.

[stray cat]

28. What about if 1/2 the class got a copy of the exam they stole from the profs desk?

so 1/2 the class to 3/4 were in on it and had a day to study with the exam in front of them?

[NJmaverick]

78. Point taken

[triguy46]

150. So you instill moral relativism at an early age...

and hope the kid can figure out right and wrong later? How about just doing the right thing?

[NJmaverick]

183. Morals are a complex issue

why start them out with an unrealistically simple model?

[kwassa]

5. Yes

I am a teacher as well as a parent, and I would encourage any child to tell on another class mate who was cheating.

One value that we try to instill in our children is fairness, and cheating is a basic violation of that value. Many children are highly offended when they see their fellow students cheating, as they should be, because it works against those that are actually doing the work, and being responsible. There is no sense of merit if a cheater gets a good grade by the act of cheating.

In my classes, I am usually informed by some student coming to me privately, and there are not loud and public denunciations at any point. I take aside the cheater and talk to them privately as well.

[redqueen]

+1

I don't get the motivation behind encouraging children to keep quiet about stuff like this.

Maybe that's where the idea that whistleblowers are bad comes from.

[NJmaverick]

86. I think many a balancing the negative impact a child faces by being labeled a snitch

verses the positives of stopping a cheater.

[kwassa]

94. What is wrong with being a snitch?

The idea that there is something wrong with snitching is sick unto itself.

There is a whole "stop-snitching" mentality out there in the gang world that is used to intimidate potential witnesses to serious crimes. Law enforcement, and on a much lesser scale, teachers, need help in seeing that rules are enforced.

It takes a village, or at least a classroom, to make things work. It is not just the responsibility of the teacher to see that things are fair for everyone. It is everyone's responsibility.

[NJmaverick]

95. I try to be realistic. Your points are all pretty good

however they would be lost on the child that is ostracized, tormented or even bullied as a result of turning in the cheater.

[kwassa]

96. Then there needs to be safeguards against that built in to the school system

Bullying, and it's prevention, are a very hot topic in schools right now, with the emphasis on quick and immediate intervention in any bullying scenario. There simply needs to be adults that children can go to a confidential basis and express themselves about being bullied, be that teacher, guidance counselor, or administrator, and a process in place for dealing with such behaviors from one group of students against another.

In addition, we are called upon as teachers now to teach values, something that used to be the province of the family or the church. We have an entire "Character Counts" program and daily pledge.

By not standing up to intimidation, and being safe in doing so, the student essentially is enabling bad behavior to take place, and making the school worse for himself, in the long run.

[NJmaverick]

99. I'm not sure it's that simple as there is often after care and summer camps and the like

kids find a way. Kids can be creative and are able to defeat most safe guards.

[Odin2005]

122. Then the bullies need to be punished.

[Kajsa]

170. The student can talk to the teacher privately.

There is a way to do this without attracting attention.

I know, I'm both a substitute teacher and a Home Teacher,
going on nine years now.

Believe me, students try to pull everything on a sub, even
one they know well ( me).

Students tell me about cheating all the time.

I make sure to talk to the offenders at a time that does not
draw attention to the students who revealed the offender.

It can be done.

This is very necessary, as the cheaters throw the curve for
the entire class, without doing the work=not fair to those
who did do the work.

[Deja Q]

13. +50,000. Damn nice to see some sensible people on this web site.

:pals:

:yourock::yourock::yourock::yourock::yourock::yourock::yourock::yourock::yourock:

[Roon]

6. I was in elementary school

and one of the kids was using a multiplication table for math. It fit right into his hand and easily concealed. It really pissed me off because I can't multiply! Didn't snitch on him though, I really wanted to....

[mnhtnbb]

7. Aw. C'mon. Scent of a Woman is one of my favorite movies.

No snitching!

[Deja Q]

8. Y-E-hell-S. And isn't it damn obvious as to why?!!!

1. You are complicit if you see others cheat but do nothing.
2. The cheater gains nothing.
3. THE SCHOOL'S CREDIBILITY GOES DOWN WITH ANOTHER B.S. STATISTIC.
4. How would you feel? Surely people still have a collective conscience or guilt alarm or something?
5. And yet society whines that there's no discipline. THAT IS ONE REASON WHY.

I could go on with many reasons.

Note on point 3: Especially in pay-for schools, where their reputation means a lot compared to public schools... but then, people are so lax with standards in the first place (and I've posted polls alluding to that).


Anybody answering "no" is just being foolish.

And, hell yeah, I am very passionate about this subject. Because I will not be complicit in the dumbing down of people.

[Forkboy]

10. The cheater would be the one who is my child.

[Deja Q]

12. So you would teach him how to cheat? What are we supposed to infer from your response?

[Forkboy]

14. My kid would be smart enough to learn to cheat on his own.

:silly:

[Chan790]

45. That the ability to cheat is a valid and useful skill?

Because in some sense it is true. Cheaters prosper.

[ThomCat]

70. Cheaters often do prospers and bullies almost always

get away with it. Unfortunately, these are useful skills to learn as a kid, and they take you very far in the adult world. :(

[LisaL]

15. No.

Other children wouldn't like a tattle tale.

[MrSlayer]

16. No. No one likes a rat.

The classmate will eventually get caught on their own.

[kwassa]

17. How will the classmate get caught if nobody tells?

Those who know and don't tell are accomplices, to me.

[MrSlayer]

39. The teacher catches them perhaps?

And those who tell get a deserved ass beating. Mind your own.

[quakerboy]

42. Mind your own

When the kid in the desk across has the answers on their cuff, mind your own. When the effete kid gets called gay, mind your own. When coworker is skimming a few bucks from the till, mind your own. When the Boss is taking kickbacks from hiring illegals, mind your own. When the neighbors kid seems to have bruises more often than most kids, mind your own. When you hear screaming from the house next door, mind your own. Might just be good sex, and its none of your business anyhow.

It is my feeling that minding your own is a really poor way to live unless you really dig being a libertarian.

[MrSlayer]

117. There is a difference between ratting on someone and standing up for someone.

So in your first case, yes, mind your own. In the second case stand up for the kid against the bully, don't run and tell, stand up. In the third case, mind your own unless you are going to be blamed. Fourth case, stand up for the abused child. Last case, it depends, you can usually tell the difference between someone screaming in agony and someone screaming in ecstasy.

[quakerboy]

143. The one leads to the next

And then you find out too late your policy of "mind your own" has left you with a lot of regrets.

Its a matter of perspective, I suppose. You see it as ratting. I see it as standing up for everyone who did it honestly, but is to timid or indoctrinated to stand up for the value of what they have done.

[MrSlayer]

201. If I pass on my own why would I care if someone else cheats?

That person is only pretending to know, I really do know. In the long run I win and they lose.

[stray cat]

22. Like W?

[MrSlayer]

40. He was always going to get away with everything.

That's not a proper example.

[triguy46]

151. So, conformity is the issue, not doing what is right.

[newcriminal]

18. No!!

[Haole Girl]

19. No

My mother taught me "cheaters always get caught in the end."

[ccharles000]

20. yes

[Xipe Totec]

21. No

Why?

Because I was one of the cheater's accomplices.

I helped get a friend through High School by doing his English test and mine, both during the test period.

The poor guy didn't have a clue about English, and would have flunked.

The irony is that now he speaks English because he had no choice but to learn, in order to keep a job in the US.

I have no regrets.

[LeftyFingerPop]

23. God no...

Of course it is the right and moral thing to do, but your child is not going to care about that when 5 other kids are beating the crap out of him because he snitched.

[stray cat]

30. That tends to by my take as well - once you open your mouth people tend to find out

[stray cat]

24. For those who say no - is it at all because you think cheating is ok if you don't get caught?

[Haole Girl]

25. Absolutely not. nt

[LeftyFingerPop]

27. Why would you put a child in the position of having to snitch?

[stray cat]

34. The cheater is the one who presents the choice to the child

parents certainly should not force a child to tell the truth and risk his/her neck. I would advise a child against it but the cheater is the one who puts the child in the position.

[LeftyFingerPop]

37. I agree. n/t

[Withywindle]

56. I agree too.

I would advise my child to stay out of it UNLESS it was my child's work this kid was stealing, directly.

(And then, since my child has told me about it, I might pass a hint along to the child's teacher to keep an eye out for this, under conditions of anonymity. :D)

Months or years later, I MIGHT tell my child I had done this, depending on conditions.

[pitohui]

116. there's a problem w. reporting if it's yr own kid's work that is being copied

i attended a school where the person being copied, even innocently, would receive the same punishment as the cheat

therefore it would be sheer suicide to report the cheat rather than trying hard to keep your work covered

i was aware of someone sitting too close to me who was trying to see my answers, i could not report it because the punishment for reporting would be too severe, instead, i just had to cover up everything and write in a dark little space under my hand

i don't know if schools had similar rules today but i'd check it out before advising my child to do something that would hurt his own record or even his chance of passing the class

[Xipe Totec]

29. Don't be simplistic

Of course not.

The reasons can be varied and complex.

[stray cat]

31. Don't be naive - do you think no one on DU ever cheated on something

[Xipe Totec]

35. I assume you meant the reply not for me,

but for the person I replied to.

Since we are in 100% agreement.

[mnhtnbb]

125. No. It's the teacher's responsibility to monitor testing. Ratting out

fellow students is not honorable.

If a kid knows cheating is going on and the kid tells the teacher, a lot of teachers will pressure
the kid to give up the cheater. See my comment about "Scent of a Woman". Turning one kid against
another is not right. The teacher needs to do more careful monitoring.

[noamnety]

153. The cheating isn't always within view of the teacher.

sometimes it's work done outside of class time (take home exams or other assignments), sometimes it's an answer sheet swiped, and there are a other ways it could be virtually invisible to a teacher.

"Turning one kid against another is not right." <-- and yet the cheater is pitting the other students against the teacher and against their own sense of honor. Where is your concern about that? It's not the teacher who's created the problem, nor the person reporting it. I see very little accountability put on the people creating the problem by the people defending their right to cheat in peace.

[ElboRuum]

188. No.

It's wrong as far as I'm concerned, but you don't score points in heaven or the FSM's homeworld or in whatever moral spreadsheet you use to keep track of this stuff by applying a wrong to correct a wrong. Most kids, I would suspect, wouldn't be tattling for what I would consider noble reasons, it would probably be just to get the classmate in trouble. Even if it were for "noble" reasons, the result of this might is to foment lack of trust for him/herself.

[LostInAnomie]

26. No. Everyone hates rats.

Unless the test is being graded on a curve, the cheating doesn't harm them.

[noamnety]

148. You aren't a teacher, are you?

It brings down the education for everyone in the room when people won't do the homework and won't learn the material. The result is that the teacher can't teach to the same level, the classroom discussions aren't as meaningful, when the school fails AYP because people didn't learn the material and didn't have a way to cheat on standardized tests, resources that should have gone to other purposes get diverted to all kinds of intervention programs. Teachers who could otherwise be involved in after school clubs that reinforce learning and creative thinking are instead spending their time on those interventions.

If you think the impact of refusing to put effort toward your own education only impacts yourself, you are mistaken. Education is more than "this kid earned a 75.3 on a quiz, that kid earned an 87.1."

Also, as stray cat pointed out a few posts up, the cheater has already impacted the other student by putting them in a position to have to choose between social standing or compromising their own ethics - they've already affected people besides themselves just by virtue of creating the situation.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Xithras]

33. Yes, for the sake of the cheater. You can be a "rat" or an "enabler". Your choice.

People don't cheat if they know the material. If a kid has to resort to cheating to pass a class or a test, then the kid needs academic help NOW, before he or she falls further behind. By not snitching, you're simply abetting their academic failure and are becoming partly responsible for their future academic troubles. You're an enabler for their ultimately self-destructive tendencies.

Though it might anger them in the short term, the cheater is far better off if they're revealed to the teacher so that appropriate academic intervention can take place.

[quakerboy]

44. playing DA

It seems to me that at least part of the time, cheaters have to put more work and end up learning more by cheating than by not. Aren't the true failures the ones who just give up and fail crap? Doesn't a successful cheater demonstrate the skill to be an adequate member of society just by succeeding? And isn't that the point of school at the undergrad level, to demonstrate that you can fit in and be a good societal cog?

[LanternWaste]

47. Can your hypothesis also be applied to the work-place?

Can your hypothesis also be applied to the work-place? If not, what is the precise and relevant moral difference?

[quakerboy]

49. You tell me

Do any of us have the amazing fortune not to have that one guy who cant really do anything, but is great at getting along, so they call them "salesman" or "owner" or some crap like that, and pay them so that we will do their work for them?

[LanternWaste]

85. I imagine the type of worker...

I imagine the type of worker you described is the type of worker many people would rather avoid sharing responsibility with... thus my question.

[SPKrazy]

36. no but if they told me

I'd have to have a long talk about how cheaters never prosper and how it is wrong.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

38. Yes...Because the cheater might run for prez one day

...and we don't need another GWBush.

Seriously! I'd encourage my kid to speak with the teacher or administrator privately...especially if the cheater was copying off my kid.

[wickerwoman]

41. Telling vs. tattling...

I think the distinction is that "telling" has a reason behind it (to protect others or the person you're telling on) and is fine.

Tattling is motivated by getting the person in trouble and is bad.

I wouldn't tattle on a cheater just to screw him/her over, but I might tell if they were cheating on something potentially dangerous like their MCATs.

It's not really a black and white situation. I would have the kid look at his/her motivations and the seriousness of the cheating and it's potential implications down the road.

[redqueen]

88. Good point. (nt)

[proteus_lives]

43. No. Because the school-yard treats a snitch a lot worse then a cheater.

It's social death from what I remember.

[LanternWaste]

46. honor is a difficult thing to impart to a child...

I would. Although honor is a difficult thing to impart to a child through any means other than example, it's a lesson well learned.

And although I realize many would tacitly defend the dishonor in saying nothing (i.e., the ghetto-chic term "snitch" and that which it implies), I think that one's greater honor would earn him/her greater respect from his peers in the long run (at least his peers which are worth being friends with).

If we accept that cheating is a moral bad, then we must also conclude that turning a blind eye to it is also a moral bad-- even if not to the same degree.

[newcriminal]

48. I disagree completely.

I believe there is much more honor in knowing that their classmate is doing something they shouldn't, and not going to the teacher saying oh it's not fair. The child has no idea what the other child is going through. They might have parents that expect to much from them, or any number of reasons for cheating. I would have much more respect for my child to feel apathy for the cheater and not to go off whining to the teacher. Maybe ask the classmate if he/she would like to study together?

[wickerwoman]

105. There are no acceptable reasons for cheating.

And it isn't fair. Do you think none of the other students have parents that expect too much from them? At least revealing the cheating confronts the situation and moves towards a resolution.

I had students who came in to take their tests the day they broke up with their boyfriends/girlfriends, a few days after their grandparents died, a few days after 9/11 (some of them coming from funerals of relatives). Do they "deserve" to cheat because life is tough?

What kind of mindset is that to teach a kid? It's just an offset of the "life owes me a living and I'm going to get it any way I can and fuck anyone I have to step on to get it."

How do you know there isn't another kid in the class who woke himself up, fed himself, got himself ready for school because his parents were nowhere to be found, struggled through a learning disability to get an honest C on the test and has to look at his overpriviledged "ooo mommy expects too much of me" neighbor cheating on the same test and getting an A?

[LanternWaste]

174. in direct contra-distinction to the oft-quoted Edmond Burke proverb...

"I believe there is much more honor in knowing that their classmate is doing something they shouldn't, and not going to the teacher saying oh it's not fair."


And that particular statement of yours seems to be in direct contra-distinction to the oft-quoted Edmond Burke proverb... ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.’

I imagine his statement necessarily includes the trendy "No Snitch" demographic also.

[newcriminal]

185. Yes cheating on your spelling test is "evil".

A lot of you on here are trying to make this into something way more than what was asked. After reading this I asked my daughter (she will be in 5th grade) what would you do if you saw someone cheating on a test at school? She said she would what till recess and tell them they shouldn't do that. I said OK. I then asked her what would she do if she saw someone picking on a kid at recess what would she do? She said she would tell the teacher right away. That is exactly how I thought she would answer.

[LanternWaste]

191. Moral Bad = Evil-- regardless of degree

If a thing is a moral bad (evil), then it remains one-- regardless of degree of "badness" or degree of consequence. If a hypothetical cup of pure water suddenly has a foreign substance added to it-- regardless of how much, or indeed, how little-- that hypothetical cup of water is no longer pure water.

I'm certainly not making this into anything more than it is-- I'm simply being consistent in my own morality. Others may defend or justify turning a blind eye to it as they so wish.

[Odin2005]

197. Haven't you heard? ethical consistency is bad now, relativism and "situational ethics" are good.

Some of the arguments in this thread sicken me. :banghead:

Ethical statements are by definition universal and absolute, they are "Categorical Imperatives".

[ThomCat]

71. One of the most intelligent and best reasoned posts on this thread.

I think most parents would prefer that their kids NOT tell on the cheater mostly out of fear and a wish for their child's safety. After all, we all know that the person who tells is going to be a target forever as a snitch. Every bully is going to go after that kid, and nobody is going to come to his or her defense. Even the teachers probably won't defend the snitch.

So honor and honesty be damned, people will bend over backwards to manufacture all kinds of rationalizations and justifications for doing nothing and letting cheaters get away with it.

And then they'll wonder why their kids grow up to do nothing when they see someone homeless, hurt or starving on the sidewalk, or see a mugging in progress, or see a rape or sexual assault happening. How outraged do people have to get before they break through that well-trained apathy to do the right thing after we've taught them to just sit there and do nothing?

[redqueen]

87. Well said. (nt)

[XemaSab]

50. I would tell him or her to stay out of it

Scenes like that never end well.

[DeepBlueC]

51. No

It's not his job. It's always risky for a kid to step in as as surrogate for the teacher, voluntarily or involuntarily. There is a disproportionate social price to pay.

[Odin2005]

52. Yes. The "No tattling" BS is just indoctrination into conformity and groupthink.

Any adult that tells a kid that tattling is wrong is a bad caregiver.

I am disgusted by the "tattling is bad" BS in this thread.

[newcriminal]

53. Do you have children?

[Odin2005]

54. I was bullied viciously as a kid because I "tattled".

Us people with Asperger's Syndrome generally don't understand brainless group loyalty and groupthink. Apparently non-autistics are OK with putting loyalty over doing thew right thing. No wonder there are so few wistleblowers in our society.

[newcriminal]

55. I take that as a no.

It has nothing to do with brainless group loyalty. What a take offense is to your post that any adult who tells their kid tattling is wrong isn't a good caregiver. Tattling most certainly isn't always the right thing. I never take advice on care giving from someone whom has no experience.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

106. well stated. nt

[Mythsaje]

76. Maybe... or in some cases it might be the opposite...

If society were to tell a child that, oh, atheism was wrong (or even illegal) and that that child should grow up to believe that if s/he discovered that a person were an atheist s/he should tell the authorities, would you then believe that snitching was okay? Or, say, the child went to a private religious school and, having been indocrinated to believe that a certain behavior was sinful, would be it be appropriate to tell the child to inform on his/her classmate if s/he were to have caught that classmate indulging in such behavior?

Or, to use another example, let's take a child who's parents happen to smoke pot. Let's say the child goes to school and is informed (however untruthfully) that pot would kill his/her parents and, for their own safety, that child should tell his/her teacher or another authority figure. The parents undoubtedly break the law. But maybe then the parents are arrested, the child taken out of the home, and thrown into the foster care system and comes to some harm him or her self.

Would you say that snitching in any of these cases was a GOOD thing, or would you instead consider the possibility that there are good arguments against it?

[Odin2005]

77. Civil disobedience is the exception to the rule and not related to what I'm talking about.

I'm taking about things like standing up for a kid that's being ganged up on and bullied on some reason by a group of his or her peers, that is, I am against the use of group loyalty to protect a peer that is being a bully. It's the same mindset that causes "good" cops to never, ever, ever stand up to bad cops.

[Mythsaje]

92. Of course it's related...

You cannot cast an imaginary line in the sand and say "this is one thing and this is another" and expect agreement. All rules and assumptions about rules should be questioned, lest one fall into a trap at least as insidious as the group loyalty you despise.

[Petrushka]

57. When I started high-school, there were two girls who seemed to enjoy . . .

. . . bullying me on the schoolbus. Though I began to feel scared and angry when both girls
decided to occupy the seats next to me in class --- one to my left, one to my right --- I said
nothing to the teacher because tattling was a no-no. Anyway . . .

When the bullies' grades began to improve, it was because one or the other had taken my
homework or copied my answers on a test. Did I tell the teacher? No. Did I tell my parents?
No. Did I tell anybody? No . . . not till now, that is!

Back then, instead of tattling on the cheaters, I figured I'd deal with the problem by hiding
my answers on one particularly important test . . . sorta protect my answers from prying eyes,
fully aware that such a maneuver never worked before because both of those girls had only to
knock away my hand and glare at me. No sweat this time, however.

When I pretended to be trying extra-hard to keep my answers to myself, those girls must have thought
they'd have to wrestle me to see what I'd written. Trouble was: I mean: Like: I didn't care if they saw
what I'd written because I was actually writing down all the wrong answers!

Today, I'm wondering if either of those girls ever figured out why they each received an F on that test
. . . when yours truly received an A+. Did either of them notice how the teacher smiled and winked but
needed to say nothing to any of us about the test results when she handed us our graded papers? So . . .

Replying to your question with a question, NJmaverick: Is it considered "cheating" when one cheats bullies
out of what might turn out to be their free passes to the next grade? If so, I'd encourage my child
to not wait until her old age to tell!

:evilgrin:

[Tuesday Afternoon]

58. well...

would you? why? :hi:

[noamnety]

59. I know someone who saw the abu ghraib photos before they were public

She didn't "snitch." They were just passed around the barracks like any other war prize photos. It was understood that loyalty to the group was valued above other ethics.

[newcriminal]

60. Yes, cheating on an algebra test and war crimes are in the same category.

Didn't we all know that?

[noamnety]

61. Kids rarely have to make decisions about war crimes in this country.

But the ethics they learn when they are young influence the ways they think when they are older.

[newcriminal]

62. Yes, and the ethics I teach my kids are to care about people.

So, for them not to tattle on their classmate for cheating doesn't teach them to not come forward and tell someone that people are being tortured. It doesn't make any sense to group the two together.

[noamnety]

64. They are inseperable in my head

and that might be in part because I see the question as being so influenced by cultural values.

In the US, we tend to look out for "number one" - ourselves. That's reflected even in the answers that many gave here. They said not to tell - but not because they "care about people" - but rather because the kid themselves shouldn't tell out of their own self-interest (so they don't get beat up).

What I would find interesting is the same question posed - but with the cheating related to a sports team rather than academics. I wonder if there would be some differences in answers.

[newcriminal]

65. Read my post 48.

[noamnety]

66. yes, I read it.

It didn't change my view at all, but I did read it.

[newcriminal]

67. I didn't ask to change your view.

I certainly didn't say for my kid to look at for #1. I hate when people take two entirely different scenarios and group them together and try to prove their point. The two have nothing to do with each other.

[Petrushka]

68. "...cheating related to a sports team rather than academics." ?? Hm-m.

In academics, when a student successfully cheats,
he learns only to cheat himself. But . . . hm-m . . . ??

Since most school sports are competitve team sports, a student athlete's loyalty (as well as a team's loyalty) would be toward one's own school rather than one's rivals' . . . so . . . cheating (if/when discovered) would ruin the reputation of one's own team and school. A question, therefore, might be posed as follows:

Should a student spectator rat out his winning home-team
when he knows the sweaty jocks are cheating or should he
join the cheerleaders in another rah-rah sis-boom-bah!?

:shrug:

[Odin2005]

81. Excellent post.

+1

[newcriminal]

63. Sorry hit it twice.

[Odin2005]

79. Doesn't make cheating any less wrong.

Wrong is wrong. If kids think it's OK to cheat on a test what's preventing them to think that flouting the rules of just war are OK?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

127. because most sane people know the difference between cheating on a test, and killing people

and torturing them?

[Odin2005]

128. Then why aren't people on the streets demanding prosecutions for Gitmo?

And why is the show "24" so popular?

Where you you think cops get the idea it's bad for a cop to rat out a misbehaving cop?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

129. 24 is popular because its imaginary, gitmo prosecutions are not happening

because of apathy.

doesn't mean we don't get the difference

[quakerboy]

144. For curiosity

Do you think it was the people who used to keep quiet in grade school or the ones who would have blown the whistle on a cheater who made sure that those photos went public?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

176. yes. i saw a lot of cheating in high school and didnt care. it didnt involve

human life or spirit. kids were lazy, they cheated.

i would speak and do speak up against human rights violations

[ThomCat]

72. That is a damned good example, because despite the difference in

degree of severity, it is the same basic situation. It is the same thought process. "Do I tell and become a snitch, or do I keep quiet?"

In the case of the photos there is even more incentive to keep quiet because of military loyalty, and despite what the rules say real military honor says you never betray a fellow soldier. They also don't know how many dozens, hundreds or maybe thousands of people have seen the photos, so everyone can think "Someone else is dumb enough or by-the-book enough to report these so I don't have to put my neck on the line to do it."

In a classroom situation you can see if nobody else went to speak to the teacher about anything, so you know for sure that nobody reported the cheater. Or you can be pretty sure that nobody reported the cheater. So you still have that urgentness, that it needs to be done and you are the person that needs to do it.

[noamnety]

149. The reaction of the others who served with Darby

support the notion that people in the military see the ethics in the same way. When Darby was found out as the whistle blower in the torture photos, people didn't distinguish it by saying "oh, this is totally different than snitching out a friend in school because people's lives were at stake and it affected other people." Instead, they revealed the same attitudes as what I've seen in this thread, that people who don't help cover up the crimes of their peers - or at least look the other way - are "ugly rats."

From the commander of the VFW post in Cumberland MD - so this was not even the people he turned in, not people directly affected by it, just American culture on display in general:

"He was a rat. He was a traitor. He let his unit down. He let his fellow soldiers down and the U.S. military. Basically he was no good," Engelbach says.

... Asked if he agrees with that, Engelbach says, "I agree that his actions that he did were no good and borderline traitor, yes."

... "Their hometown held a vigil for members of his unit, including the accused, not however, for Joe Darby."

... "An officer asked Darby what he wanted to do. "I said, 'Sir, I just want to go home. I've always just wanted to go home.' He said, 'Well son, that's not an option.' He said, 'The Army Reserve has done a security assessment of the area and it's not safe for you there. You can't go home,'" Darby remembers. "'You can probably never go home.'"

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/12/07/60minutes/main2238188_page3.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody

[dropkickpa]

69. Yes

Because I tell Dropkid to always tell an adult authority figure (more than one if necessary) she trusts when someone is doing something that is wrong. She is not afraid to tell when she sees a wrong being committed, and I am damn proud of her for that and I tell her so. She also tells when she sees the little fuckwads picking on other kids for telling, so the bullies aren't getting away with shit. Funny thing is, she's pretty darn popular for a "tattle-tale"

This tacit approval of cheating only leads to greater wrongs being allowed, and it silences our kids voices in more serious situations. I've had WAY too many friends who were victims of abuse of all different sorts to ever even think about telling my daughter silence in the face of wrong doing is the best policy. FUCK THAT NOISE. That is a message I will NEVER pass on to her, and all of you who are telling your own children this are doing them a grave disservice.

I was the victim of bullies in elementary school, and I was complicit in my abuse many of the times because I stayed silent. If I had stood up and screamed when I was pinched/hair pulled/punched/tests copied/etc in class, if I'd immediately told when I was pushed, if I'd spoken up, I'd have taken away their greatest power, which was my intimidated silence. Want to know when the bullying stopped? When I moved and changed schools it started to happen again (I was always the smallest kid in my grade). This time, I spoke, LOUDLY. It stopped. I was called a tattletale (big fuckin' whoop, I was one of 6 kids, we all called each other tattle-tale, didn't bug me in the least). That lasted for all of a week, and the bullies ignored me and I made a bunch of friends and had great 3rd-5th grade years.

[Odin2005]

82. Excellent post! Thank you!

"I was the victim of bullies in elementary school, and I was complicit in my abuse many of the times because I stayed silent. If I had stood up and screamed when I was pinched/hair pulled/punched/tests copied/etc in class, if I'd immediately told when I was pushed, if I'd spoken up, I'd have taken away their greatest power, which was my intimidated silence. Want to know when the bullying stopped? When I moved and changed schools it started to happen again (I was always the smallest kid in my grade). This time, I spoke, LOUDLY. It stopped. I was called a tattletale (big fuckin' whoop, I was one of 6 kids, we all called each other tattle-tale, didn't bug me in the least). That lasted for all of a week, and the bullies ignored me and I made a bunch of friends and had great 3rd-5th grade years."

:yourock:

The groupthink apologists in this thread should be ashamed of themselves. And people wonder why nothing gets done about bullying? Why bad cops never get brought to justice? Why so few people are willing to stand up for what is right even if it might be unpopular?

[noamnety]

83. My daughther was in that situation once

knowing that a friend in first grade was being abused (molested by a grandfather). Because the fiend had told her not to tell anyone, she didn't - out of loyalty, out of having learned that "telling a trusted adult" when something is wrong is considered "tattling" as someone up thread labelled it. The language we use to describe it, with its strong baggage, is part of the brainwashing that happens when kids are very young.

It didn't take with me, it's the reason I couldn't pass an army polygraph, because to pass those you have to be able to think in those childlike terms. "Would you ever betray your country?" "Would you ever betray a family member?" The army requires a simple "no" on those questions, without the thousand qualifiers I need, about what situation would have got me to the point where I would consider betraying them, does betraying them mean being a whistle blower, what if someone in my family committed murder.

It's why I said it was cultural, because in some cultures if your family member has molested a child, the family will turn against you if you report it to police - the family "honor code" demands that you just shut up about it, just as some honor codes demand that if you know your best bud in college has raped a drunk girl while she's passed out, you don't report him to police.

[redqueen]

89. Love this post!

Glad you weren't so afraid of the disapproval of your peers. :)

[slay]

73. No

people should mind their own business. karma will get him/her in the end.

[GaYellowDawg]

74. Yes.

Better the cheater get punished now than in a place where there's an honor code.

[Mythsaje]

75. Is the cheater a friend? Yes? No?

Someone the child actively dislikes? Or someone s/he likes? There's a lot of different things that can come into play in a situation like this and I'd really be careful how I'd recommend the child react. I'm not thrilled about cheating, but I'm also not thrilled about snitching. One has to consider who the cheater is harming, and how much harm might come about if s/he were caught.

If it's a friend, there's an aspect of betrayal. If an "enemy" or something like an enemy, there's an element of personal vindictiveness involved that might complicate the whole scenario and have lasting moral implications.

I love how there are those who see things like this in black and white, but it seems to me that there are layers here one has to consider. While cheating is wrong, it's also wrong to betray a friend. Particularly without warning. Better perhaps to suggest that if one child knows, others will soon know as well. And it's only a matter of time before the cheater gets caught. Best to stop while ahead.

[Odin2005]

84. Right is right and wrong is wrong, doesn't matter if it's a friend or not.

not standing up for what is right because a friend, relative, or fellow group member may feel "betrayed" is the source of silence and complicity to the many evils and injustices that plague us.

It's attitudes like this that actually make me thankful that I have Asperger's, I'd rather have the charisma of a rotten egg than be a blindly loyal sheep.

[Mythsaje]

90. You assume I am a "blindly loyal sheep?"

You have learned nothing from my posts over the past several years, then? I am blindly nothing. But someone who would casually betray a friend does not deserve friends, or much else in my mind. Again, it is a matter of harm, and whether or not harm could be mitigated. The world is not black and white, but shades of gray, and anyone who cannot see it might as well be a Republican, for their viewpoint is based on exactly that assumption.

[Odin2005]

121. Correcting a friend's wrong behavior is in the friend's best interest.

If I had a friend who was, say, a meth addict I would try my hardest to make him get help even if he doesn't want it.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

123. what if you knew your friend was beaten regularly for bad grades?

or that her homelife was too disruptive to studying?

[Odin2005]

124. If the friend was abused because of a bad grade I would make an exception.

Hell, I would probably even help him cheat, because child abuse is the worse wrong then cheating. Then I would try to get an adult to contact child protective services to get my friend out of the abusive home.

If my friend's home life was too disruptive I would help him study.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

126. exactly. since we cannot know all the little details behind cheating

there can be no black vs white. despite your desire to not see gray areas.

and every parent has the right to tell their child to not get involved in an issue like cheating since you cannot possibly always know what the cheater is trying to avoid.

[Petrushka]

152. What if you knew of a classmate who was being bullied on the schoolbus . . .

. . . and also being bullied in the classroom, bullied by the big girls who cheated
on tests by copying their victim's homework and test answers . . . bullies who
were too busy tending to their makeup, clothes, and boyfriends to have time left
for schoolwork? AND . . .

What if you knew that the bullies' "victim" was being beaten unconscious at home by
her mother and browbeaten by her drunken father for bringing schoolbooks into the house
after her father said books put crazy ideas in a girl's head . . . a father who did not
believe in schooling, especially for a girl . . . a girl who, at thirteen, was told how
the law might say he had to send her to school till she was sixteen but it didn't say he had
to buy paper and pencils or anything else?

Would it make a difference to YOU if the "victim" was a runty "redneck honky loner" and
a straight-A student who was so ashamed of her situation at home that she could never
have forgiven your knowing because you might be tempted to stick your nose in and
only make things worse?


:shrug:



==================================================================================
BTW: Don't sweat it! The late-blooming runt now has 60 more years under her hat.

[wickerwoman]

157. Address the root problem.

If your friend is beaten at home, tell child protective services. If their home life is too disruptive, invite them to study at your house.

But there is no excuse for not acting with personal integrity. All of us could dredge up half a dozen good reasons to cheat, lie or steal but that still doesn't give us the "right" to do it. My parents insisted I work 20 hours a week during the school year as soon as I turned 16. That didn't give me the right to cheat on math tests which I no longer had time to study for. It presented me with the challenge of working a bit harder and overcoming the obstacle.

And in the case of kids with excessive parental expectations, is it really doing anything for the kid's self-esteem to think that the only way they can succeed is to cheat? You know that it's still gnawing away at the kid that they couldn't pass honestly. So why not get the real issue out in the open where there is some hope of addressing it instead of enabling/encouraging/turning a blind eye to cheating?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

165. as an adult you can say that but most children dont behave in this way

they just try to not have their friends get into more trouble. we are still talking about kids, right?

[wickerwoman]

178. That's why parents should set a good example and teach them better.

It's human nature to take the path of least resistance. If you can do nothing and not suffer any negative consequences for it, most people will do that whether it's the "right" thing to do or not. They'll do nothing even when it results in demonstrable harm to others and they carry that passivity into adulthood which is why it's so hard to find whistleblowers.

My parents taught me not to make waves and it wasn't until I was 32 or so that I finally shed my extremely passive approach to life and began to confront the root issues instead of constantly avoiding the consequences. I would lie about stupid things to avoid trouble (or because I just couldn't be bother to deal with the truth). I wish like hell someone had taught me to be more proactive when I was a kid.

It plays absolute hell with your self-esteem to know that you aren't acting with integrity. Even kids know what integrity is and the damage from encouraging them to compromise it can last a lifetime.

Would you seriously tell a kid it's OK to cheat to avoid trouble with their parents down the road? Would you want your child to live that way? Or would you want your child to know that it's better to be brave, live with integrity and deal with problems actively?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

179. my parents taught me to make waves only for things that were worth it (to me)

cheating in school, for kids, never was, never shall be. bullying was, human rights violations were, protecting people from harm was.

i am going to offer my child the same advice. if she feels cheating is that important to her, she can do it. if not, hopefully she'll find something else, she thinks is worth it

[wickerwoman]

190. I think we're conflating two issues here:

1.) Is it OK to cheat (or is it OK to allow your child to cheat)? and

2.) Should you tell on someone else if you see them cheating?

full disclosure: I was a teacher for years but even if I wasn't I would still say the answer to #1 is absolutely not.

I class cheating with lying and stealing under behavior which shows a lack of personal integrity. I think it shows a lack of respect for teachers, for the learning process and for education in general. And it shows a profound lack of respect for the other students in the class. It is taking an unfair and undeserved advantage over them.

It's like parents who do their kids' homework for them because Junior is too busy (with sports or scouts or music) and anyway, it's not really an important assignment and the teacher is crazy anyway- look how much work she assigns! What does that teach Junior except that he/she is too important to do things the same way as everyone else and that if you have a problem, you can get around it by behaving dishonestly rather than pointing out the problem and dealing with it. Why do we have the problems we have in education today? Because kids are taught by their parents not to respect teachers, not to respect learning and not to work hard when they have problems. They are taught that they are better than school (if teachers are so smart, why do they make such crappy salaries?) and that they have more important things to do. And that therefore it is OK to cheat.

But when we get to #2:

This is not black and white, I agree. I hope we can agree that cheating is morally wrong, but how much harm is causes can be context-specific.

The observer has to weigh how much harm is caused by the cheating against what would be gained by revealing it. I agree we should make waves when we see real harm being done. If you don't want to define cheating as "real harm" then fair enough.

But I would strongly encourage you not to condone cheating in your own children. It's symptomatic of a really nasty world view and one which won't serve them well in the long run.

[noamnety]

192. I'm with you on the lack of respect for teachers.

Teachers give up a lot of free time to grade student work. I don't like staying up til 11 pm some nights grading work. I don't know why people think it's no big deal to expect a teacher to give up their spare time to read and evaluate work that the student plagiarized.

I have better things to do with my life than grade a third party's work on my off time and give substantial comments on it when that third party isn't even one of my students and will never see the feedback. It's a theft of my labor, in other words. Teaching your kids that's okay is a shitty thing to do to people who are giving up their weekends and evenings to try to help your kids.

If you found out your kid was asking you for special homemade lunches daily, and you put effort into it because you thought it enriched the quality of their life in some way - and then you found out they were throwing it in the trash as soon as they got to school and laughing about it behind your back, you'd be pissed off at your wasted effort, and you'd think they hadn't learned how to treat people with basic respect.

[wickerwoman]

193. Exactly, cheating sabotauges the learning process for everyone.

I don't just slap a grade on tests and be done with them. I look at them carefully to see what material isn't being fully understood so that I can integrate a review into my lesson plans. When students cheat, I can't tell what they know and what they don't know, so I can't help them as well as I could otherwise. They screw themselves out of the opportunity to get help they need.

And what about peer review? Is it fair to ask two or three other students to read and review a plagiarized paper that one student has no intention of changing (because they didn't write it in the first place)?

Huge waste of time and effort for everyone. Very disrespectful.

[KittyWampus]

199. So, if gay people can't marry why should I make waves, it's not worth it (to me). See how fucked up

your attempts to rationalize really are?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

204. is it worth it to you? what do you do about it? i didnt say one has to be selfish

in what one decides is worth it. a kid being lazy and copying from his book, doesnt make me particularly perturbed

[proteus_lives]

98. It must be nice to live in a world of absolutes.

:shrug:

[Odin2005]

119. I don't think moral relativism is a good thing.

[ElboRuum]

189. Doesn't matter...

It's the ONLY thing.

[Odin2005]

198. I disagree.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

111. understanding human emotions is hardly being a blind sheep.

empathy, kindness etc are far more important that this black/white issue you have set up.

the reason people dont like snitches (and possibly why you were bullied) is because snitches are generally cowards. you do not have the balls to confront the cheater but go behind their back, to a more powerful authority figure, and then hide behind this authority figure. there is a certain element of cowardice to this. most people dont like cowards.

this has nothing to do with sheep.

[Odin2005]

118. When I was a kid I DID tell them to stop, if they refused then I went to the teacher.

Understanding what the other person is thinking is not relevant, just because one understands why somebody acts wrongly doesn't mean that person is still not in the wrong. And I am kind, I try to correct the person as nicely as possible, I'm doing it is that person's best interests because what the person is doing is bad for him/her in the long run

[La Lioness Priyanka]

120. going around calling people sheep because they disagree with you on one issue

the issue itself is bit murky because it involves kids and cowardice and some other variables, is hardly kind.

in fact very few of your posts can be described as empathetic or kind or even allowing someone to exist that isnt your opinion. despite what you feel there isnt a universal right and wrong, in any given cases, there are a hundred variable, and life does exist in gray. making complex situations into black vs white, is a very stupid way to see the world

[noamnety]

131. I don't see it as an issue of cowardice.

Teachers have the job of enforcing no cheating policies. Students don't.

There was a time once when I reported a good friend for child abuse. I have no regrets about that. It didn't carry any weight for me to go to a peer and say "hey, I think you shouldn't be abusing your kid." They knew it was wrong, they didn't need me to tell them that. Ditto for kids cheating. They didn't need to hear it from a peer; they need someone in a position of authority to apply appropriate consequences for their actions.

I don't put much stock though in what people think is cowardice or not - more often than not, other people's version of cowardice is very skewed from mine. In the case of reporting a cheater, as others pointed out, the person with responsibility for enforcing the policy is the teacher. Once the child has reported it, they've done all they're required to do by any reasonable standard. I can't see a reason for telling the cheater "I'm the one who told the teacher" - because it makes it into a big drama for no reason - except giving the cheater an out for trying to hold a third party accountable for their actions. It's between the cheater and the teacher to deal with.

If there are issues with a kid being abused because of bad grades, that's something that should have been reported to an adult by the friend as soon as they found out about the situation. If there's a situation where there is no place to study at the cheater's house, that's an issue that should be brought to the teacher's attention as well at the time the cheating is reported. They have a responsibility as the teacher to assess whether accomodations need to be made. It's not for a fellow child to determine that appropriate accomodations haven't been made to to determine that cheating (rather than learning the material) is an acceptable alternate accommodation. If there are extenuating circumstances the teacher probably can't do their job properly unless they are aware of them.

Going back to cowardice, seems to me the cheater is the ultimate coward. They're the one not doing what's right and refusing to be accountable for their own actions. It's why I don't like the language choices you are making in your responses - the word "snitch" is designed to put the fault on the whistleblower, not the person who's at fault. Those language choices do stay with us and influence our view of the world, including situations like date rape and abu ghraib, where people have learned they don't want to be "the snitch."

As to the actions of someone who reports it or not, you can argue it's cowardly to report it. I could as easily argue it's more cowardly to do nothing. When people hear a neighbor being abused, the most cowardly thing to do is to stay out of it and do nothing. The most responsible thing is to report it, call 911. Unless the police can't handle it or can't respond quick enough to an urgent situation, I can't think of a reason (except, like I said, creating drama because a person thrives on it) for inserting oneself directly into the neighbor's conflict with the law.

[Odin2005]

132. +1,000,000!!! Excellent post!

Going back to cowardice, seems to me the cheater is the ultimate coward. They're the one not doing what's right and refusing to be accountable for their own actions. It's why I don't like the language choices you are making in your responses - the word "snitch" is designed to put the fault on the whistleblower, not the person who's at fault. Those language choices do stay with us and influence our view of the world, including situations like date rape and abu ghraib, where people have learned they don't want to be "the snitch."

You get what I was taking about EXACTLY!!!

:yourock:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

134. the fact that none of you can see the difference between war crimes and

a kid not wanting to tattle about his classmate, amuses me. must be hard to get through life being so clueless.

[Odin2005]

138. You are naive is such attitudes do not have negative effects on society.

Much like the jerks that think rape jokes are OK. :eyes:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

139. i know that you have recently developed sensitivities to rape, but as

one who has suffered from sexual abuse, please dont conflate arguments.

most reasonably people can tell degrees of illegality, immorality, etc apart.

[Odin2005]

141. In my experience people SAY the can tell the difference...

...but that doesn't mean that is true with their actions. Look at how so many normally progressive people that claim to support gender equality and to be against bigotry towards those with mental illnesses use the word "bitch" when bashing a wing-nut woman, or imply that the Teabaggers are "violently insane".

[La Lioness Priyanka]

160. in my experience people know the difference. nt

[La Lioness Priyanka]

133. as an adult, you know the consequence of your action.

a kid may not know that social ostracism might occur as a result of tattling, if a parent is concerned about this, they are hardly sheep as dear odin likes to refer to them.

there are multiple reasons why one might cheat on an exam, some of which i find excusable

i think a lot of people project their miserable childhoods in this thread. i didnt cheat. if cheating occured in school, i didnt think it was a huge deal. if my kid doesnt, i dont think the world will come apart. this doesnt make me or others bad parents.

i think odin2005 is projecting his childhood issue with bullying onto the rest of us.

[noamnety]

135. I think you are bordering on personal attacks here.

I would like to think we can discuss this issue without resorting to accusing people of disagreeing with our position because they are "cowards," because they are "projecting their miserable childhoods" onto this thread, or resorting to Fristian psychoanalysis and diagnoses of anyone's childhood. That's a way to be dismissive of a person's arguments without directly addressing them.

In some cases here you do address rationale which I appreciate even when I disagree with you, but at other times you've sunk below what I'd consider truly civil discourse.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

136. umm i didnt call anyone a coward. i believe odin called them sheep.

and i do think its an issue of projecting.

[noamnety]

137. I was referring to this:

"the reason people dont like snitches (and possibly why you were bullied) is because snitches are generally cowards. "

I think that was personal and over the line, and I saw it repeated in the post I was just responding to. Something to reflect on, and possibly try to refrain from.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

140. umm. he mentioned that he was bullied for snitching. look upthread. nt

[noamnety]

147. I missed the part where he said

"people generally didn't like me because, being a snitch, I was probably also a coward." I'm asking that you limit yourself to the merits of exposing cheating or looking the other way, bringing in your own experiences or not as you wish, rather than resorting to that kind of personal off-the-wall psychoanalysis as a form of insult. It's a reasonable request.

I also think it's a weak argument to be dismissive of anyone who brings their personal experience to an issue by accusing them of "projecting." We ALL bring our personal experiences and upbringing to the table when we talk ethics, whether we admit it to ourselves or to others.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

159. actually i said, one of the reasons people dont like snitches

is because they are perceived off as being cowards. its an explanation. not an attack.

[Iggo]

91. Nope.

[BarenakedLady]

93. No

Stay out of it.

It'll catch up to the cheater eventually.

[Lars39]

97. Hmm. Nature vs Nurture...

Are sociopaths born that way or molded by their experiences? Does getting away with the small stuff encourage bad behavior? Food for thought. :)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

107. sociopaths cannot be created because they are told not to snitch. nt

[Lars39]

108. I was aiming more for the cheaters.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

109. kids who cheat on class exams are hardly sociopathic.nt

[Lars39]

110. Just wondering if it contributes.

Could be all the little things adding up.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

112. sociopathy, is a very defined set of behaviors, cheating isnt its main characteristic.

[Lars39]

113. The ones I know would cheat about anything if they thought they could

get away with it...as long as it benefited them somehow.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

114. yes, but what i am saying is cheating is a small part of a larger bigger set of behaviors

and most cheaters are not sociopaths. thankfully the number of real sociopaths is pretty low.

[quakerboy]

145. My question would be

Given the rare true sociopath, if they knew everyone is paying attention and would notice and hold them accountable for their actions, would they be as likely to do some of the horrific things that they have historically done? If they experientially know they will be caught, would they still do what they do?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

158. yes. because sociopaths dont care. its sort of the problem

[quakerboy]

162. I thought

they didn't care about others. But I was under the impression that they cared rather much what they might suffer.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

166. no, they dont really. their sense of shame/embarrassment/fear is very dull

[La Lioness Priyanka]

100. i would ask why my child wanted or didnt want to snitch on them

if she did it because of a "real" reason, like fairness, i would ask her to go ahead

if she did it out of jealousy, envy, pettiness, i would discourage her.

the motivation to do something, even the right thing, imo has to be moral

[NJmaverick]

101. That sounds pretty good to me

would you warn your child about the possible consequences of their actions?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

103. yes. informed decision making is also good.

:)

[newcriminal]

104. Very good point.

[guitar man]

102. No

Nobody likes a snitch and when the cheater gets bold enough, they'll be caught.

[pitohui]

115. creating enemies is never the way to prosper in life

cheats are ugly people, and tattletales/snitches are ugly people

there is difference between a whistleblower (who sees a genuine wrong, say, love canal or something) and a tattletale (who is just a kiss-ass looking to get the other kid in trouble for something that does him no harm)

if the teacher can't catch a cheat, it ain't the kids job to do it for her/him

an adult needs to be an adult

[RidinMyDonkey]

130. I would not

Maybe it's teaching selfishness as well, but no one likes a tattle tail. School is tough enough to get through without making it worse on yourself.

[noamnety]

142. Im my Masters in Education program

some of the students on my study teams plagiarized portions of their papers - that they were submitting for group projects. These students were in grad school, they were teachers-in-training, and in some cases they already were professional teachers.

Thoughts on how I should have handled that?

[philosophie_en_rose]

155. withdraw from the group

:shrug:

[noamnety]

156. The teacher assigned the groups at the start of the class.

We were assigned group research/paper projects by the teacher which was almost half our grade. "Withdrawing from the group" meant taking a failing grade at my own expense (thousand or so dollars in tuition plus a delay in my graduation, and a corresponding loss in salary since our payscale gives us another 1500 or so for having the MA.

Perhaps not the best option.

[redqueen]

161. Well for sure anyone saying it's best to say nothing shouldn't wonder

about how professionals who are borderline idiots got through college.

[noamnety]

163. Absolutely.

It also brought home for me the reality of how the mindset that it's okay to cheat affects other people.

If I hadn't had an odd feeling about the portions of papers my teammates submitted, I might easily have not checked for plagiarism myself. The first couple projects we submitted, it didn't occur to me that someone in a masters program - who would be responsible for ensuring that their students didn't cheat - would be so lacking in ethics.

If the papers had been submitted as written and if it had been detected by the instructor, all our names were on that paper. That put us all at risk of being expelled. The consequence of their actions could easily have been thousands of dollars of forfeited tuition for me, inability to get my teacher certification, loss of my job/income. All because they couldn't be bothered to do their own work or own up to the fact that they were too overwhelmed with other responsibilities to be in that program at that time of their lives.

As a result of that, I am pretty P.O.'d at people raising their kids to think cheating is no big deal, or "justified if you don't have time to do homework" or teaching their kids that the proper response is to look the other way. The kids cheating in grade school and high school are the same adults cheating in college, and throughout their entire career it jeopardizes the education and ethics of their fellow students, puts us in intolerable situations, and puts the teachers' jobs at risk when the kid making straight A's in class can't pass a state administered standardized test in the subject.

For anyone wondering, the way I handled it was that in our class forum in the team area, I made a public post calling out the student who cheated, telling them to rewrite their section because the following portions were plagiarized ---- and then I quoted their submission, and linked to the website they plagiarized it from. I knew that the teacher read those forums. At the end of the course we had to evaluate our fellow students, and I gave them zeros with an explanation and links to the forum posts in case the teacher somehow hadn't seen them, along with a statement that I didn't believe they should be allowed to continue in a teacher education program. If they're going to cheat on their MA, they're likely to cheat on student results for state testing as well, or embezzle classroom funds if they "need" the money.

I had about as much sympathy for them as I imagine Madoff's victims had for him. Screw over your peers by being a cheat, risk their careers for your own gain, you should expect to be held accountable.

It's a shame for those I reported (there were two separate instances) that they didn't learn that lesson in elementary school, when the consequences are so fleeting. If their peers knew they were cheating all through school and decided no consequences were better than accountability, the peers didn't do them any favors.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

167. you're not a kid though. so you should be able to make a judgment

knowing the things that are important to you and the possible negative/positive outcomes.

[noamnety]

171. There's an element of judgment in all decisions.

I don't think anyone here is arguing an absolute zero tolerance issue despite all consequences, although some have tried to present their opponents as incapable of nuanced thought as a strawman. I think we all get that if a kid knows absolutely they're going to get knifed, for instance, as a result of exposing a cheating student, we'd tell them to take care of their own safety first. (That's the situation my mom was in during high school - she handed over her homework to other students to copy because she was threatened at knife point. The risk of serious injury outweighed her ethics about cheating.)

The OP isn't asking us a thousand what-ifs and qualifiers, though. They're posing it as a general philosophy. Do we teach our kids that covering up wrongdoing and looking the other way when peers are unethical makes us good people? Or do we teach them that exposing wrong doing is courageous?

What are the ethics we teach our kids? What are the ethics we want them to have as adults? If we want them to have one set of ethics as kids and another as adults, how do we overcome the indoctrination into the "wrong" set of morals that we gave them when they were younger and most susceptible to absorbing the morals we taught them? At what point do we sit them down and say "all that stuff we told you about ethics when you were 2-18 years old, we'd like you to reverse that now that you are an adult?"

Most people I'd wager never have that conversation. And the result is exactly the society we have, where more than half of all frat boys (if I remember the study right) say they'd rape a woman if they knew absolutely they'd get away with it, where people who are cops believe their primary responsibility is to another cop vs. another cop's victim, where the military believes their primary responsibility is to another person in their unit over someone that person has harmed, where politicians will cover up bribes and corruption by other members of their own party, and even the "good" politicians believe it's better not to hold someone accountable, even for war crimes, because it's more important to "look forward." (Especially when members of their own party were complicit.)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

172. actually my only objection was the black and white way of seeing this issue

i would teach my own kids to do things for the right reason. i would discourage them to do things out of pettiness/jealousy and to let them know, there are things worth dying for and things that arent. ultimately, we make that decision.

[noamnety]

180. We agree on that, then.

I had a problem with people making it into a black and white issue for their kids: "Never report wrong doing by peers."

Having kids report problems to a trusted adult for advice or for the adult to deal with, seems like a good solution to me, so the child isn't in the position of having to make that judgment of what should or shouldn't be covered up. I prefer that to a black & white solution of telling the child never to tell an adult. It puts the decision making in the adult's hands, it keeps the kid out of that role, it teaches that when they are an adult they'll be expected to make tough ethical decisions instead of teaching them that reporting corruption is bad.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

182. i had the same problem, with its never ok to be quiet about cheating

honestly, i didnt care in school, still dont, doubt my child will. most kids, in my experience dont care.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

168. you're not a kid though. so you should be able to make a judgment

knowing the things that are important to you and the possible negative/positive outcomes.

[triguy46]

146. Yes. Its the right thing to do. This begs a bunch or straw man type arguments...

but bottom line, raise your children to be honest, to not turn away from wrong. Ultimately, honesty is a very important ideal. Not ratting out a friend is not an ideal of the higher level.

[philosophie_en_rose]

154. It depends.

I think it's a lot of pressure to make kids police other kids. The teacher should be supervising the class and should be the one to catch cheaters. However, if the kid definitely knows that there is cheating on something major (not like quickly finishing your sentence when the teacher calls time or something), then I'd call the teacher discretely. Most likely, the teacher doesn't have enough information to punish anyone. However, he or she can watch more closely next time.

[Initech]

164. Absolutely not - they'd be breaking the cardinal rule of the streets: don't snitch.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

169. Being a fucking rat is worse than cheating.

Besides, cheaters never win anyways.

[noamnety]

173. Do you feel the same about workplace politics? (nt)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

175. Depends.

[noamnety]

177. What sort of dishonesty in the workplace

shouldn't be reported?

What sort should?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

181. I would not report somebody for taking home office supplies.

You?

[noamnety]

184. small incidentals - like pens, no

because the odds are they're bringing their own supplies from home at least as often as walking out with them from work. I've probably got a few pads of paper in my car from driving to an offsite staff meeting, grabbing a note pad for note taking, and never getting around to returning it. Meanwhile there is a boatload of my own equipment in my classroom for kids to use, and I'm down at least a thousand dollars purely in damages to my personal equipment along with probably another thousand in supplies I've paid for out of pocket and donated. Digital cameras, cables, card readers, disks, lighting equipment, framing supplies, enlargers, the list is endless. Where I work, I think all of us are in that boat.

But if I found out a coworker was systematically and deliberately stealing from the school, taking more than they donated out of pocket in an effort to scam the system, absolutely I'd report it. Their thefts would be part of the reason our budget is so tight I end up spending my paycheck on supplies for the kids - the other staff members end up having to subsidize that sort of crime spree by having our budgets cut and donating back our salary in supplies.

In past jobs, I reported two of my direct bosses for violations of policy. In one case the boss was misappropriating government funds. I knew he was a vindictive bastard so I reported on an anonymous tip line. (Other employees filed lawsuits against him for other reasons, he was a piece of work.) In the other case, I knew the boss was fair, but he did screw up in an unacceptable way. I wrote up the violation, had him check it for errors, and he signed off on it before it was sent up the chain. I think I wrote up my husband for something, too once ... that's a more vague memory, it was probably something minor with no real consequences. He married me after that, so I guess he was okay. (Either that or this marriage is a multi-decade project on his part to get back at me for it.)

The husband wrote someone up once, too - I remember that because he reported the incident, didn't feel punishment was appropriate but did feel it needed to be documented. Under the section of the report where he was required to write the disciplinary action taken, he wrote in "flogging." That paperwork went through the whole system and nobody ever commented about it. :D

[Odin2005]

195. And that attitude is why cops almost never get punished.

[ElboRuum]

186. Absolutely not...

Snitching begets a lack of trust. Children who are notorious tattlers often find themselves ostracized and lonely because even children of good character feel uncomfortable around them.

[noamnety]

194. The people creating the lack of trust

are the people who are cheating. Not sure why so few people in this thread are putting the blame on the people who are actually at fault. It's very much like the Darby thing where the city got together for a vigil for all the assholes who were guilty of crimes, and threatened the whistle blower to the extent that he can never return there.

People's sense of accountability and responsibility is screwed up beyond all recognition.

[Odin2005]

196. Yep. Like I said, groupthinking sheep-ism.

[KittyWampus]

200. Enlightening thread. No wonder so few people have the guts to be whistleblowers.

[Odin2005]

202. Exactly my point!

:hi:

[cwydro]

203. It is very enlightening.

Learning new aspects of our fellow DUers every day.

[Juche]

205. No, because academic cheating is pretty much irrelevant

If his friend was suicidal, or was planning a murder, was bullying his classmates or was date raping people then yes. But something like cheating on a math test in junior high (which means nothing as far as the real world or real world consequences)? No.

The only kind of academic cheating that is a problem IMO is the kind where professional scientists flub their research to get grants.

[Petrushka]

206. Cheating on a junior high math test "...means nothing as far as the real world or real world . . .

consequences"??

Isn't it possible that some of those "professional scientists (who) flub their research"
are the same persons who cheated on their math tests in junior high?

If it's "pretty much irrelevant" when a youngster learns to cheat rather than
learning his lessons . . . well . . . :shrug: . . . that sure as shootin'
oughta shoot the "Butterfly Effect" and chaos theory all to hell!



:scared:

[Juche]

207. I don't agree

My morals are different, which I'm going to assume people in this thread will take to mean inferior to theirs or flawed. Cheating is relevant based on the consequences it has.

Is cheating relevant when a physician is supposed to be learning a new life saving technique he is going to have to start performing next month? Yes. Is it relevant when an 8th grader does it while learning algebra they are going to forget in a month anyway? No.

That doesn't excuse cheating, but I wouldn't consider it important enough to make a big deal out of. However if someone were a physician in an adult education class that was teaching the doctors about how to deal with swine flu or MRSA and someone was cheating rather than learning the material so they could apply it, then yes that is worth mentioning or addressing.

I guess I don't consider cheating the same for applied vs theoretical knowledge. I'm not saying it is ok, but it depends on what the consequences are of not learning the subject material because of the cheating.

[crispini]

209. What about the consequences it has to the cheater?

Succeeding in cheating teaches a child they can get away with it and continue to slide by the easy way rather than through hard work.

[Juche]

210. Doing things the easy way is generally the best way

I drive to work, I don't walk on my hands. So I take the easy way to work. Nothing wrong with that.

Cheating, in my view, is wrong to the degree that you need to know the knowledge. If you cheat while learning knowledge you need to know for important reasons then yes that is very wrong. If it is esoteric knowledge you will forget in a month, then its not a huge deal. Still not right, but not a huge deal.

[crispini]

211. I agree that doing things the easy way is the best way.

But I also think that a lot of times in life we have to do things we don't like. Sad but true. I don't like some parts of my job, others are pretty good. I suck it up and get through it because at the end of the day I like the paycheck. Cheating teaches kids that it's OK to just skip over the parts you don't like. Not going to work in the working world unfortunately.

[backwoodsbob]

208. would let him make his own decision

[Shell Beau]

212. I will encourage my child not to cheat.

[crispini]

213. Cheating is wrong.

Now, I do agree with the many people in this thread who say that there could be mitigating circumstances around cheating that the child might not know about. But the classroom conduct is not the student's responsibility. Quietly telling the teacher gives the teacher the chance to govern his or her own classroom appropriately. If there are mitigating circumstances, it's the teacher's job to find out, not the student's.