Ethics(?) question about Lucy-the-dog's demise.

[trof]

If you missed my first post about Lucy
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=8442063&mesg_id=8442063

Now the question.
Her owners don't know what happened to her.
Yet.
As far as they're concerned she just disappeared.
Maybe ran off.
Maybe someone picked her up.
Hell, maybe a gator got her.
It's happened before here.

Anyway, she went missing a couple of months ago and their grief has abated. They have a new dog. They don't know that Lucy died a horrible death, locked up in a vacant house and starving. There are pieces of trim clawed/gnawed off at front and back doors.

Should I tell them?
I can't see what good it would do.
It sure won't bring Lucy back and I know the knowledge would sadden and horrify them.
It seems to me to be kindest to just keep my mouth shut.
What say you?

[Haole Girl]

1. The truth is always better

Take it from me. :hug:

[trof]

8. In most cases, yes. But not always.

[Haole Girl]

12. There is an expression... "The truth always comes out."

And while it doesn't always, a story like this, will more than likely come out. But you will have to do what you think is best. :hug:

[trof]

23. I guess I'm doing what I think is 'best'.

I see it like this...
I can keep quiet and cause no additional pain.
I can tell all, 'satisfy' their curiosity, and cause pain.
Is satisfying their curiosity worth the pain they'll suffer?
:-(

[lizziegrace]

2. I'd want to know

It might help save another dog from the same fate, somehow. I don't know... I had a cat disappear and I had no idea what happened to her. To this day I wonder and it's been 15 years.

[XemaSab]

3. Tell them that you found her dead in the woods

n/t

[Kali]

4. Tough question.

I lean towards informing them, if for no other reason than the obvious lessons to be learned (possible location for missing pets and keep pets under supervision, to say the least).

[Midlodemocrat]

5. I wouldn't want to know that the dog suffered like that.

And, I would trust you with whatever story you chose to tell me. I don't think I would have any reason not to believe you.

[Haole Girl]

6. What happens when it slips, down the road?

How would the neighbor feel then?

You know what I mean...?

[Midlodemocrat]

7. Why would it? I mean, I doubt it will come up over and over

and if it did slip down the road, I would just say we were trying to protect the owners' feelings. Personally, I would not want to know that my dog suffered like that. JMHO. YMMV.

[Haole Girl]

10. I see your point

But, having been in a similar situation, and knowing how easily a story like that slips, it's just better to tell the truth from the beginning. JMHO

[trof]

16. That is a concern.

Seven people know about this.
They have all said they wouldn't tell, and we're close enough that I think I can depend on them to keep mum.

If it did come out, later on, I'd tell our neighbors that we only wanted to spare them some needless(?) pain and anguish.
I think they would understand.

[Haole Girl]

20. Seven! uh oh.

Well, the level of trust may never be the same. When my cat died, when we were on a trip, and they didn't tell me for several months (the neighbors who were going to watch him) there was never the same level of trust. I really didn't want to get into it, but it's something to keep in mind... especially if that many people know about it.

Maybe the modified truth? I dunno. It's a really awful decision to have to make. :hug:

[trof]

30. Yeah, 2 can keep a secret if one is dead.

:-(

[Haole Girl]

33. Unless they are all attorneys or former spies

The chances of all 7 people keeping any kind of secret would be very slim... very! lol

[Midlodemocrat]

21. That's what I think as well. I think they'll understand if it comes out

that you were trying to spare them. Personally, I think it is a kindness.

[trof]

13. Thank you Midlo. More info about Lucy's owners:

They're going through a rough patch right now.
He and his brother own our local Chrysler dealership.
I don't need to tell you what a financial hell they're going through.
His wife has told me she's worried about him.
He's had to lay off half the employees and he's devastated about that.
He's always been very close to the people who work there and their families.

Plus there's a serious question about the business surviving, period.
They built a huge new showroom and support facilities about 4 years ago and are in debt up to their eyeballs.

I can't see how it would help to add this to what this young family is already having to deal with.

[Haole Girl]

14. How many people know about it, trof? nt

[trof]

17. 7. See post #16.

[Midlodemocrat]

15. I know for me, I would be devastated if one of my dogs suffered like that.

I think you're doing them a kindness, frankly, by telling them this little white lie. How many people know about it? Can you get them on board?

[DeepBlueC]

22. knowing this won't make this situation any worse

They have a pet to love, a pet that someday might go missing and they need to know where to look. And if they tell others the story the potential is there to save the lives of other people's pets as well as their own.

[Chan790]

9. A modified truth would be best IMO.

A pet owner always wonders and thus knowing would abate that, bringing further closure.

Beyond that, use very little detail...don't mention that she starved to death or the damage as she tried to escape from being trapped. It would harm nobody to imply (without stating anything specific) that she went off someplace to die and that it wasn't the horrible death that it really really was. Sometimes a lie is noble.

[Runcible Spoon]

11. I would want to know, but I wouldn't want to know that she suffered

perhaps there is some way to broach it without giving the explicit details. Truly horrible for everyone involved.

[trof]

19. Once they know 'how', they'll draw their own conclusions.

They're smart people.
And they'll re-live it and dwell on it.
I know I would.

[DeepBlueC]

18. the truth ...they need to know for the sake of other pets they might have

You don't have to go into details about gnaw marks. She was found in a closed house. Looks like she got locked in somehow. Anything you make up will introduce questions that need to be answered in their own minds and if there is a flaw in the logic of your lie or if it leaves questions still unanswered, that will become something they will have to continue to try to answer. What they are thinking now...that their dog simply left them or got picked up by a scrounger for medical labs (happens), got stolen by some wicked and uncaring person, got euthanized in a distant pound is already hurtful. Leave it up to them to manage their emotions. Is a gator getting her in any way a kinder imagining? And knowing this is a good lesson in where to look for a missing pet. The number #1 place to look is always in outbuildings and places that the animal might have got shut up in. That's knowledge that they might need sometime in the future.

[wartrace]

24. Tell them the truth.

It will hurt them deeply but it is the only thing you can do. I would want to know what happened had it been my dog.

[Gormy Cuss]

25. They deserve to know that the dog is dead.

The horrid details needn't be shared at this time if you think they're under too much stress but they probably do still worry about how Lucy is doing. It is a kindness to let them let go of that worry.

Whether they should hear the rest of it is not something that I can say because I don't know them. Use your best judgment on how much info they can handle.

[trof]

28. Naturally I wouldn't go into the gory details, but...

As I said in another post, they'll know.
They're intelligent people.
They'll visualize what she went through.
Inevitable.

[Gormy Cuss]

29. So tell them nothing and then they'll eventually hear it through the rumor mill

and be angry when they realize that all of you kept it from them.

It's tough either way, trof. I'd be inclined to let them know that the dog was found dead on the snowbird's property. If they asked for more info, I'd tell them the limited truth, that poor Lucy somehow got into the house and died.

[skygazer]

26. If she was my dog, I would want to know

If it was my child, I would want to know.

Not knowing is the worst pain there is - the imagination is far worse than any reality because it can go to a million places whereas reality is only one horrible reality.

It is not a kindness to presume to know a person's best interests. Yes, it will hurt them terribly, sadden and sicken them. That is part of honoring their beloved pet's life - knowing what happened to her, feeling the natural feelings one does when one loses a loved one. And eventually accepting it.

You do not have to go into graphic detail. You only need tell them gently that Lucy's body was found, that she apparently somehow got into the house and could not get out. That's enough. That lets them know that she is not still somewhere, hurt or scared.

It is awful to never know what happened to someone you love. I know that for a fact.

You are a good friend to want to protect them from this. But I would want to know. :hug:

[trof]

27. OK, I've decided that it's not my call.

I've talked to the friends who own the house where Lucy expired.
At first she wanted to tell Lucy's owners.
But the more we talked, the more she kind of saw my point.

So...it's up to her.
And I told her I would tell them if she wants me to.
She doesn't know them very well.

I'll let you know what she decides.

[suninvited]

31. I had a pet die of what had to be an agonizing death

years ago, when I was 14. My parents didn't believe in wasting money on animals, so when we moved into a house that seemed to come with a beagle in the back yard, I was shocked when they let me keep it.

Of course, she wasnt spayed and had several litters of puppies. She never went to the vet because they were too expensive. Because we lived in a rural area with no leash laws or fences the beagle would follow me to school and wait on the school's porch for me to come out and then follow me home. One of my classmates accidentally hit her with a car one day. She limped for a while but seemed to be okay, just walked a little funny with her back legs. Then she got pregnant again.

When it came time for her to give birth she wasn't able to. The suffering she went through was horrible, and I begged my father to take her to the vet. He said we couldnt afford it but if it didnt end soon he would shoot her to put her out of her misery She was unable to have her puppies, presumably because of the car accident. She was tearing at herself and looking at me pitifully, hoping I could help her. I couldnt. I cried more than she did, she was very quiet. I even tried to sleep out in the garage with her, but my parents wouldnt let me. One morning, when I got up and ran to go outsdie and check on her, my father stopped me and told me she had died during the night. I dont really know if she did, or if my father shot her.

To this day, I am haunted by all of this, and even still sometimes I wake up crying after having a dream about her. I have lost animals before, but never had one suffer like this. This death I never fully got over and I am tortured by my thoughts of her suffering. I am 48 now, this all happened 34 years ago.

I would not tell the owners what happened.

[skygazer]

32. I am so sorry you had to experience that sense of powerlessness

and to see your loved pet suffer like that. :hug:

:(

[LeftyFingerPop]

34. Trof, please, do not tell them...

In my humble opinion....

At least at this point, there is an ounce of hope, that they will always have, that their dog ended up in a good home.

Knowing the truth would eat at them for ever, and serve no good purpose.

Knowing the details for certain would hurt them forever.

[LisaL]

40. These people are adults, one would think they should be able

to handle the truth.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

35. I wouldn't want to know.

[TK421]

36. Tell the truth...it will only come back to bite you on your ass if you lie about it

and there is nothing ( on your part ) that you should feel shameful about, IMHO

Just talk to them about it.....nobody is going to be happy about the outcome of this situation, but ( I REALLY hate this fucking saying...but ) it is what it is.

[S n o w b a l l]

37. No...don't tell

They wouldn't fault you if they found out you didn't tell. You were only looking out for their feelings and I think they'd understand that. It seems they are over their grief...this would only hurt them again and deeper.

I can only speak for myself, but I could never get that image out of my head and would rather not know.

[Critters2]

38. Ethicists make these determinations by setting up an ethical framework,

based on one's prorities. In this case, the question is which is a higher ethical priority for you--truth or mercy? If you place a higher premium on truth, then, to function within your ethical framework, you'd tell them. If mercy and kindness are higher priorities, you wouldn't want them to know.

I think I'd also consider what I think are higher priorities for them. If you think they hold truth as a high principle, and would be hurt if they found out later that you had kept it from them, you should probably tell them. If you think they place a higher premium on mercy, and would understand if someday they learned you hadn't told them...not telling them would be okay. Probably.

Wish I could tell you what to do, but they made me take ethics classes in seminary so I'd know this stuff. I don't get to use my ethical methodology class stuff very often...and you did ask.

I can't help but think of that poor dog. :cry: I'm sitting here, watching my beagle sleep, with her cat brothers on either side of her....and the idea of that little beagle's last days breaks my heart. When the beagle wakes up, I'm gonna give her hug!

[LisaL]

39. I would tell them.

Especially considering they got the new dog. If they know the truth, more likely they will take precautions with the safety of their new pet.

[merh]

41. I wouldn't want to know, not ever

just reading about Lucy's death has left a knot in my stomach. It makes me so sad that she died a horrible death.

[fortyfeetunder]

42. I'd tell the truth.

It won't be easy but I think once the *truth* is out, then someone will be thought as a betrayer. I feel for the family's predicament but they need that closure.

[amitten]

43. I sure as HELL would not want to be told. No good will come of

it, and the family will suffer knowing that sort of thing.

I think telling them would amount to an act of cruelty at this point. Fuck the truth. When it's that ugly, it isn't worth knowing.

[Genevieve]

44. No way would I want to hear that kind of news about my dog.

I'de much rather try to believe he was found and living a good life somewhere.

I'de have nightmares for the rest of my life if i found out
my baby died like that

[ThomCat]

45. I would tell them if it was me.

:(

Poor Lucy. What a long, unpleasant way to go. I've spent the day thinking about her, wondering how a dog gets into an uninhabited house but can't get back out again.

[Kali]

46. this has been an interesting thread for me

because it has made me think about good people's reactions to this dilemma. I haven't changed my opinion, but I have a better understanding for the opposite opinion. The motivation to spare feelings is strong and I suppose I have even done it on occasion - especially with kids and of course in small insignificant ways with typical white lies about someone's appearance or in response to gossip, etc. I think, though for me with so many already knowing about this, that the truth - gently and sympathetically presented - is still the best choice.
I do allow a small amount of wiggle room based on the number of replies who said they would not want to know. If the owners are truly these kinds of people and you know that, then I can see a bit more reason not to tell them. Personally I would want to know. Life can be tragic and the desire for avoiding pain and guilty feelings is understandable but not actually realistic.