Homeopathic 'Healing' - Why do people still believe this crap?

[Taverner]

Sure, its no crazier than Christianity, Islam, Flat Earthism, Creationism or Astrology...but people shell out good money for snake oil.

Why?

I just had a coworker who ended up getting a Staph infection because a cut was treated naturopathically rather than with antibiotics. Now, even Keflex isn't killing it.

And all because she didn't trust Doctors and Science.

[Midlodemocrat]

1. She better watch that it doesn't develop into MRSA.

She will be royally fucked if it does.

Oh, and


:popcorn:

[Taverner]

2. Well yeah, but Staph is scary enough

That bug scares the bejezzus out of me...

[Midlodemocrat]

3. MRSA IS staph

it's methicillin resistant staph. My husband had a MRSA pneumonia in October. Scary, scary crap.

[Taverner]

4. Ahhh - did not know that. Yes, scary

[LeftyMom]

5. Because they're ignorant of elementary school level science.

Or blinded by wishful thinking.

Oh, and :popcorn:

[Schema Thing]

6. I had a friend die from a sexually transmitted staph infection

I had to look it up; I didn't even know that such a thing could happen. Apparently it's becoming more common.

[Deep13]

7. Unknown.

:shrug:

Homeopathy was discredited a century ago. It arose out of an alternative health movement in the second half of the 19th century that saw a variety of quack "therapies." All that remain now are homeopathy and chiropractic. The problem then was that as medical science advanced, more and more traditional remedies were found to be either ineffective or harmful. While science often knew the cause of disease and what did not work, at that time they did not have anything that actually did work. As medicine developed public health measures, antitoxins, antisepsis, anesthesia and, eventually, sulfa, alternative treatments lost favor tot he real things.

[MineralMan]

8. That stuff, along with all the other quackery

works just fine if you have nothing really wrong with you. It can even make you feel better. Trouble is that the "practitioners" of this bogus crap let people think that it's useful in real diseases.

An aquaintance back in California was a chronic hypochondriac. She had everything from chronic fatigue syndrome to other vague disorders. The reality was that she was depressed and anxious.

She went through every one of the quack medical practitioners in the area. Each one made her feel better...for a while. Then, of course, the underlying depression and anxiety returned after a short time. So she switched to another practitioner of another form of quackery.

Finally, at her wits end, she went to a real doctor, who got her on the right dose of Zoloft and one other medication I can't remember, and she did just fine.

Sadly, the same quacks also attempt to treat illnesses that end up being fatal.

[ccinamon]

9. maybe because most doctors treat symptoms and not causes???

And they have a very narrow focus and do not look at the body as a whole unit, but just as pieces and parts?

Personally, I got tired of "if this cortisone shot doesn't work, we will do exploratory surgery"....amazingingly, my chiropractor and posture strengthening exercises have fixed both my shoulder and my knee --- and no exploratory surgery! Now I have movement and without severe pain!

[TZ]

11. Umm yeah

Why do you think doctors don't treat causes? Hello? Antibiotics for bacterial infections..Anti-virals for viral infections. Vaccines as prophylactics for diseases.
That "don't treat the causes is a myth!". I have a rare bone marrow disorder. The meds I'm on interferon...DO go and keep the bone marrow in check.
But I suppose if I go drink vinegar or take a sugar pill I'll be okay.
And by the way, I had a chiropractor nearly PARALYZE a friend with their incompetence because it was a serious disk problem that needed surgery not more quackery.
Doctors do understand how the body works. Thats what all that education is about.

[Deep13]

13. I don't have any problems of that severity, but they are bad enough.

Modern medicine makes my life bearable.

[Deep13]

12. Three points.

First, progress in medical science has been made by realizing the body is a collection of discrete systems. Earlier ideas of balance of humors or of chakra energy looked at the body as a complete unit. It isn't either physically or from an evolution point of view. While I think it is an overstatement to say that doctors do not take the whole person into account, the localized approach does get results. One would not treat the whole body for an ankle sprain. One would treat the ankle. Also, I cannot blame doctors for being conservative. If cortizone every few weeks works, why roll the dice on surgery?

Second, even if you are right and scientific medicine is somehow flawed, it does not mean that homeopathy works. It is a quack remedy regardless of the short-comings of science. The need for more than we have does not mean that something exists to fill that need.

Lastly, "my chiropractor AND posture strengthening exercises?" How do you know it wasn't just the physical therapy? Anyway, sometimes people get sick and die for no apparent reason and the same is true about people who get better. This is one reason by personal experience is never good evidence unless it is in the context of a clinical test.

[Taverner]

19. Chiropractory only works because of the massages

Notice most Chiropractic sessions include a large does of therapeutic massages now.

Which is fine by me, insurance covers chiropractory, but it doesn't cover therapeutic massages (which have been shown to work)

[conscious evolution]

26. Yes and no

Massages help the adjustments work.When ones vertebrae are re-aligned by the chiro the muscles tend to pull them back out of place unless they are loosened up by a good massage of the connecting muscles.
Sometimes massage alone is enough for some people,sometimes not.The longer the back problem has existed the less likely that massage alone will work.

[PVnRT]

32. The plural of anecdote is not data

As for "most doctors" - whatever.

[trof]

10. You probably don't hold with etheric surgery then.

;-)

[Deep13]

14. Most surgeons use intravenous anesthetics now.

Ether works, but has some substantial draw-backs.

:evilgrin:

[trof]

15. For you and others uninitiated, this is etheric surgery:

"I received the Etheric Surgery, which he calls Bioquantum Systems, and 24 hours later I was on a fast track to restored health. I received what could only be described as a heart transplant that saved my life. Six months later I received a lung and liver transplant as the second part of the restoration process. The Arcturians told me I had served as a Surgeon with them many times in the past, much like the good doctor. I received full training with them and brought the system to the United States in my return of 2001. Spiritually awakened Beings were chosen from very qualified, dedicated healers and have been trained in Sweden, Canada, Mexico and the USA in the past 6 years of my work. Many lives have been saved by this fairly simple system: Children, Teenagers and Adults. We have also worked on dogs and cats as well.


As unusual as it may seem, this system of healing can remove damaged body parts and replace them with new ones. It has been used to treat all forms of cancer, diabetes, sexual disorders, childhood diseases, spinal problems, and glandular disorders.



In this manner, we see the physical body as a holographic projection in 3-d time and space from the creative form known as the Etheric Body or Divine Blueprint. The existence of the Subtle Body has been verified by Kirilian Photography or Aura Body Photography as seen at most Holistic Fairs around the world. Whatever is removed from the blueprint is correspondingly replaced at the physical level as well within 72 hours."
http://www.consciousmindjournal.com/Articles/2007-03-01/Etheric-Surgery---A-Very-Different-Approach.cfm
:tinfoilhat:

[Deep13]

16. I figured it was something flakey like that.

I was just kidding about "ether."

[CreekDog]

18. you have got to be kidding me

:wtf:

[Schema Thing]

22. Sweet! the ultimate placebo!

uh, yeah, bud, we just put in a new heart while you were under, and since we're running a special, you got new lungs too. You're set to run that 5k with a little training....

[AntiFascist]

17. I'm a recovering homopath

...oh

[mainegreen]

20. I'm astonished how many people genuinely believe in astrology and ESP.

Homeopathy is practically a hard science compared to the nutty crap many people believe.

[madinmaryland]

21. I am NOT a homopath. I have NEVER been a homopa.. Oh wait,

tap, tap. That's something else.

:shrug:

[tigereye]

23. some MDs use a combination of alternative therapies with traditional

medical practice - I think as more research is done, there will be more alternative therapies that are found to be effective. I think it really depends on what kind of illness or problem people have and the level of severity.


I have found accupuncture, done by an MD trained in Chinese medicine, very helpful in reducing back pain, in combination with more traditional methods.



I really think many people gravitate to alternative medicine because they dislike how impersonal and bureaucratic some traditional medical practices are... :shrug:

[Deep13]

25. With respect, it is not "traditional" medicine.

Tradition or convention has nothing to do with it. Traditional medicine includes bleeding, purges, prayers and magic, perfume to ward off bad air and accupuncture.

Modern medicine is scientific. A treatment must be demonstrated to work in clinical testing where the subjective feelings of individual patients are minimized. That is why statements like "I have found" are entirely unreliable.

I understand that why people find medicine to be cold and impersonal. Nevertheless, it is the approach that got us from bleeding to efective treatments.

[Taverner]

Yes, and I am sick of people lumping "herbal" treatments with alternative medicine

The herbal treatment may or may not work, and has traditionally low success rates. But this is because the "drug" in question is not standardized like meds are.

Herbal medicines sometimes work for some people, depending on the strength and amount of said drug in the pill.

[SoxFan]

24. Damn it, if I wanted another Rick Warren thread...

oh. never mind.

[NJmaverick]

27. In my opinion it's all about the need to feel in control of our lives

We all want to feel in control, even our health. Traditional medicine is limited and is unable to cure all illness and injury. So some people turn to alternative medicines, like homeopathic healing, so they can believe all medical problems can be solved.

That said, I personal use both. I am more than willing to all available modern medicine, but I suppliment that with preventative and alternative medicines (like vitamins and herbal suppliments).

[Taverner]

38. To me herbal supplements are not an alternative medicine

Just an unregulated one

You can take valerian root as a muscle relaxant, or you can take valium. Same drug, one extracts the drug from the herb and standardizes it, the other just gives you the ground up roots from the plant it came from.

[kentauros]

52. Valium you also have to have a prescription for and go to a doctor to get it

when all you need is a simple muscle relaxant, thus, valerian. There is something to the whole plant that is missing from the "standardized" drug that also helps the body. As I recall, this is referred to as a 'tonic' effect, which is preferable to the single extracted substance making the drug. Here's some info on that:

http://www.naturalnews.com/022628.html

Of course, it's not written by an MD, so you probably won't accept it as viable information :P

[Taverner]

109. Well yeah - look I'm not anti-herbal meds

If they are backed up by science

I even take Valerian, but being non standardized, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

[NJmaverick]

56. I guess it's a matter of how you use them. If you shun doctors in place of herbs

then it would, by definition, be alternative. If on the other hand you use them to enhance, it would simply be a suppliment, again by definition.

[woo me with science]

28. Because their repressed memories tell them to. nt

[Orsino]

29. Because it tends to be faster and cheaper than real health care...

...which isn't yet recognized as a universal right. There is quite a bit of truth in Chris Rock's old joke about his parents' over-reliance on Robitussin.

[Taverner]

37. Yes very true - and this is sad

Why Universal Health Care isn't a Universal Right is beyond me

[bunnies]

30. Oreganol P73. Works when big pharmas antibiotics dont.

I've used it in more situations than anyone would care to hear about.

Certain food products, herbs etc., DO have healing properties. And the body doesnt build up an immunity - unlike the poisons in the pharmacies.

Doesnt it strike you the least bit ironic that you're dissing natural medicine while admitting that the prescription that "science" gave your friend doesnt work? :shrug:

Maybe someday, when the drug companies can find a way to patent food products, they'll convince people that they work - like they've done with the poison they dole out now.

[nickgutierrez]

33. .

http://www.uslaw.com/library/International_Law/Oregano_Supplement_Marketers_Advertising_Fraud.php?item=212887

[bunnies]

39. All vitamins and mineral supplements are...

prohibited from making those claims. Thats the way the gov't aka big pharma likes it.

Got toenail fungus? Hell, trade it for liver failure! Wheeeeeee~

[nickgutierrez]

49. So, why settle?

If there's such a strong factual basis for this "treatment", why did they agree to settle, and pay $2.5 million in damages?

Or did Big, Bad Pharma make them do it?

[bunnies]

72. You dont trust 'vitamins' either, do you.

:eyes:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

74. I don't trust vitamins to cure staph infections or the bird flu, no.

Do you?

[bunnies]

79. No.

But I DO trust Oreganol to cure a festering wound. I've used it many, many times.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

98. If you wind up with festering wounds many many times...

you should probably try something else.

[nickgutierrez]

75. Vitamins for which the maker paid $2.5 million in damages?

No.

[bunnies]

78. lol. Because "pharma" NEVER pays damages do they...

:rofl: Find me ONE person thats died from Oreganol P73. I'll wait.

[nickgutierrez]

82. That's the bar?

Someone's got to die before a treatment is found to be ineffective?

Of course pharmaceutical companies put out faulty products from time to time. To claim that I'm defending all things "Big Pharma" is disingenuous. The key difference here is that, when something like Vioxx ends up doing harm, it's all over the news, and rightly so. When something like this is revealed as being nothing more than a placebo, after making claims to greatness, there is no great public unveiling, because there's really no new story to tell. Just another huckster with a fake cure.

[bunnies]

85. So Georgetown University is a huckster with a fake cure?

Somehow I doubt it.

[nickgutierrez]

91. Did Georgetown University make and distribute Oregano P73?

Or, if not, why are you conflating the results of an actual survey with a medical "supplement" known to be nothing more than a placebo?

[bunnies]

93. No. They did a study. "Oregano Oil May Protect Against Drug-Resistant Bacteria"

http://gumc.georgetown.edu/communications/releases/archive/carvacrol_treatment_10062001.htm

Known to be nothing more than a placebo? Georgetown disagrees.

[nickgutierrez]

96. I saw that, and it made no mention of Oregano P73.

I'm referring specifically to that substance.

[bunnies]

103. Umm. Oreganol P73 *IS* Oregano Oil.

Simply a brand of Oregano Oil. Nothing else in it.

[kentauros]

40. That seems to be more of a statement against corporate fraud in general

than against the effectiveness of the supplement. Same thing happens with Big Pharma as we all know.

Try these links on oregano:
wiki entry - health benefits
Scientists win SEED award for Himalayan oregano project

[Taverner]

41. A wiki and a puff piece about two professors does not make up for empirical evidence

!

[kentauros]

53. Oh well.

I was under the impression that the information for the "puff piece" was from research at a university, no, two universities. How is that "puff"?

And why is wiki so "untrusted" except when it backs up "your" side? There's references you can look up there, too :)

[nickgutierrez]

57. A few quick points:

1. Let's get the obvious one out of the way: Those links have nothing to do with the fraudulent "cure" addressed in the post I was initially replying to. Remember, the makers of that very same cure paid $2.5 million dollars to settle a lawsuit.

2. Saying that a substance has a decent chance of being part of a cure for MRSA is different from saying that a substance is a cure for everything, which is more along the lines of that same original reply.

3. The claims on a wiki page are mightily suspect, regardless of who or what is making the claim about whatever topic. The claims made in that wiki entry don't say anything more than that Oregano might have some vague sort of "antioxidant" effect.

[kentauros]

73. I am glad they were convicted of the fraud the perpetrated.

I mentioned that Big Pharma does the same thing. Maybe you missed that point. We all know corporations will do anything they can to get away with what they want, legally or otherwise. That was my first point.

I never said anything was a cure. Don't put words in my mouth/keys. Again, I'm glad a company that committed fraud was punished. If you've ever looked at a natural supplement bottle, I'm pretty sure (not absolutely sure, mind you) that they all say their supplement is not meant to be a cure or is not backed by the FDA in their claims.

As for the wiki entry that I linked, I see you only skimmed it. From the same link I gave:

"Additionally, oregano has demonstrated antimicrobial activity against food-borne pathogens such as Listeria monocytogenes.(4) Both of these characteristics may be useful in both health and food preservation."

"Oregano has recently been found to have extremely effective properties against Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA). Showing a higher effectiveness than 18 currently used drugs. (8) (9)" (my emphasis)

(4) ^ a b Faleiro, Leonor; et al. (2005). "Antibacterial and Antioxidant Activities of Essential Oils Isolated from Thymbra capitata L. (Cav.) and Origanum vulgare L.". J. Agric. Food Chem. 53 (21): 8162–8168. doi:10.1021/jf0510079 S0021-8561(05)01007-1. PMID 16218659.
(8) ^ "Himalayan Oregano Effective Against MRSA". Medical News Today (24 November 2008). Retrieved on 2008-11-26.
(9) ^ "Scientists win SEED award for Himalayan oregano project". University of the West of England (28.10.2008). Retrieved on 2008-11-26.

[nickgutierrez]

81. There's a key sentence in the Medical News Today article.

"The microbiologists at UWE are now carrying out further tests, and hope to publish the results in a scientific journal."

These are promising preliminary findings. The responsibility now falls to the scientists to make it work, to prove that it works, and to get it out there.

[kentauros]

84. Then to me, that's great. It has potential.

Again, I never said anything was a cure, only that it sounds interesting enough to look up more info on and learn about it. Now I have. It still sounds like it will have a beneficial effect in treatment.

With regards to the company that made claims it couldn't back, they got punished for it, as they should have. That shouldn't prevent others from marketing the substance in the meantime as a supplement. :)

[nickgutierrez]

89. Ok, that's where we disagree, then.

For me, if something is marketed as a "supplement", that's an implication that the substance has medical value. I want that evaluated: clinical trials, FDA approval, and all the rest, before it hits the market. In the case of this Oregano P73, in the original reply, it turned out to "only" be a placebo. That is, it did no harm, but had no effect, either. But it still did "damage", in the form of money, to everybody who bought it relying on its claims to be a cure. That's the harm, and that's why these things should still be proven before being sold.

[kentauros]

92. The thing about this whole argument that gets me is that

pharmaceuticals also go through that "rigorous" process and yet, dangerous drugs make it to market anyway. I don't see as much time spent around here arguing about stricter controls on what Big Pharm can market versus the time spent arguing about the effectiveness of supplements and herbal remedies.

Anything can kill or harm you if you don't follow the directions, but how many supplements and remedies come with side-effect warnings of suicide, coma and death from recommended doses? ;)

[nickgutierrez]

95. If you ask me...

...there should be no mass-marketing for prescription drugs. You'll get no argument on that point from me.

The reason there is so much time and effort spent on arguing about herbal remedies is that so many of them are at best nonsense, and at worst deadly. There's a collection http://whatstheharm.net/herbalremedies.html">here of over 100,000 documented stories of people dying from herbal remedies. Now, sure, it's anecdotal evidence, but that's a hell of a lot of anecdote, and a lot of the stuff used in these stories has been shown to absolutely be harmful. When herbal remedies submit themselves to the same (admittedly not perfect) testing procedures as the pharmaceuticals, then I'll start taking them more seriously.

[kentauros]

104. Then I will ask you something.

If I, as someone that does use natural healing sometimes as a primary and sometimes as a supplementary to "approved" scientific/medical treatments, were to post a similar link of a huge data-source of anecdotal "evidence", would you still not take me or the link seriously? Would you simply dismiss it as anecdotal and not give any credence to it whatsoever? Because if you (or the OP) say 'yes', then how do you expect me to take your link/evidence seriously?

[kentauros]

34. That sounds interesting; I'll have to look into it more.

And then there's Medicinal Mushrooms and how popular they are in research these days :D

[bunnies]

43. Yep. Mushrooms and sponges are the wayof the future.

They found some anti-tumor agent in a certain sea-sponge too! Luckily though, the scientist that found it patented the "drug"... so maybe sick people will actually get to use it!

Personally, most of my mushroom 'research' has been of the psychological kind. Now *there* is a treatment I can get behind. :rofl:

[kentauros]

55. You might look over that mushroom site

Fungi Perfecti

Paul Stamets has done a lot of research into mushrooms, including using them for bioremediation in addition to medicinal uses :)

[bunnies]

77. Bookmarking. To read when I get home.

I will definitely check it out! :hi:

[kentauros]

86. They sell gourmet mushroom kits, too

Grow your own shiitake!
Sell to local markets!
Mint your own money!

:D

[Taverner]

36. No, science doesnt work because it wasn't treated in time

Giving my co worker herbal tea didn't fix the wound either.

Seriously - show me results from an independent, empirical study that shows Oreganol P73 works as good as Penicillin and why it works from a chemical standpoint (rather than saying it unites your chakras for the age of aquarius) and maybe I'll reconsider

And medicines aren't poisons any more than the herbs they come from. Yes, many medicines have herbal origins. The active ingredient is just isolated and standardized, so the dose isn't a random thing, but can be verified, quantified and measured.

As a good friend said "If it cannot be measured, then it does not exist"

[bunnies]

54. Of course herbal tea didnt fix it.

You know - there really is no reason to mock me.


I have a bunch of studies bookmarked at home - but heres one re: anti-viral properties - to start.

http://www.seeeach.com/doc/40425_The_Seventeenth_International_Conference_on_Antiviral_Research

Here:

re: staph infections & other things

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/10/011011065609.htm

adding:

http://www.chiroweb.com/mpacms/dc/article.php?id=50197 many research links there.

[RadiationTherapy]

106. Just put some oregano oil on your tongue.

You may then assess the anti-viral/bacterial efficacy.

[XemaSab]

44. Many pharmeceutical medicines are still derived from herbs and plants

Aspirin, Taxol, Digitalis, and many others are plant-derived.

Also, many traditional Chinese herbs have been shown to cause cancer, liver failure, and other problems.

Just because it's in the pharmacy doesn't make it poisonous, and just because it's herbal doesn't make it safe.

[bunnies]

69. I agree with your last sentence.... but

would really like to see a link re: those Chinese herbs you speak of.

[XemaSab]

83. Here:

http://www.cfpc.ca/cfp/2002/Oct/vol48-oct-cme-2.asp

Since 1993 in North America, awareness has increased about the potential toxicity of JBH. In the lay press, books and periodicals have cautioned readers against its use. In fact, there is now a recognized list of herbal remedies that might cause liver toxicity: borage (suspected), chaparral tea, coltsfoot, comfrey, Crotalaria (apparently contaminated with pyrrolizidine alkaloids), germander (skullcap), mate tea, mistletoe (suspected), pennyroyal oil, sassafras, Senecio (groundsel), valerian (suspected), megadose vitamin A, and willow bark (theoretical—contains salicin, which is structurally different from acetylsalicylic acid and therefore unlikely to cause Reye’s syndrome. No clinical adverse effects have been reported).

[bunnies]

87. From the article:

"This case study is meant to inform physicians about a benign Chinese herbal remedy that became a manufactured poison."

So - its not talking about the Chinese herb itself.

Further, the section you quoted in your response says only "might" and "suspected" followed by "No clinical adverse effects have been reported".

:shrug:

edit to add the opening sentence: Jin bu huan (JBH) is most likely a benign Chinese herbal medicine that has been in use for a long time. It became a poisoned pharmaceutical when marketed as “anodyne tablets” in the 1990s.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

102. The herb and the tablets made from the herb contain tetrahydropalmitine.

A rather nasty alkaloid which people probably shouldn't be self-medicating with.

[conscious evolution]

94. One of the problems

with studies on chinese TCM and herbal drugs is that the modern day research results are seldom released/seen in the west.Some clinical studies can be found but a lot of them never see the light of day due to the chinese goverment wanting to hold on to them for financial reasons(read:exploit).

[Deep13]

46. I suppose you have clinical evidence to support that claim.

When we relied soley on "natural" medicine, most of us died in our forties. That is assuming we successfully ran the gauntlet of childhood diseases which were often fatal.

Being resentful of scientific medicine is like a blind person being resentful of his guide dog. It means being angry at the very thing that gives us freedom from the ailment.

[bunnies]

65. Does Georgetown University count?

:shrug: http://gumc.georgetown.edu/communications/releases/archive/carvacrol_treatment_10062001.htm

[Deep13]

68. Seems like a good start.

Let's see how it goes in clinical testing.

[bunnies]

71. The way is see it is...

I know its not going to cause me any harm, and its worked for everything I've used it on. Sure, I'm not saying its the be all and end all of antibiotics... but for an infected cut (or big nasty zit)... its A++++.

[kimmerspixelated]

110. YEAH, BUNNIES!!!!!!

I, too have had luck with Oil of Oreganol! They make that in a cream form which will knock out anything as well.

Also Tea Tree Oil is fantastic!

It's amazing the hatred towards certain cures that have been around for thousands of years!!! And yet they continue to believe in synthetic toxins!


Go, Bunny!

[derby378]

31. I study the history of American homeopathy sometimes...

The American Institute of Homeopathy, believe it or not, is actually older than the American Medical Association by one or two years, making it the oldest national medical society in America, if not the world.

I don't use homeopathic medicines, either, but a lot of the first homeopaths were actually strong anti-quackery advocates. They protested the excesses of "regular" doctors who thought nothing of pumping you full of pills until you either recovered or died from an overdose.

Plus homeopathy is supposed to work by interacting with what they called the Vital Force, but other people today might call qi, chi, prana, orenda, etc.

[Taverner]

35. The Vatican is even older than the AIH but I won't see them if I'm sick either

[derby378]

42. You win a bubblegum cigar for that one

Nicely done!

Still, there is one homeopath I have to mention - Constantin Hering, MD, who was the first doctor of any sort to study medicinal uses for nitroglycerin. Heart patients around the world owe him no small debt of gratitude.

Of course, Hering did originally envision nitroglycerin as a headache remedy. Placing a single drop of nitro on the tongue will cause a severe headache that lasts for a few hours, and Hering, remembering the Law of Similars, figured that a diluted and "potentized" amount of nitro would negate headaches in his patients. Didn't exacly work that way, but someone down the line leafed through Hering's lab notes, studied the cardiovascular system, and put two and two together.

[Taverner]

45. Just because they stumbled on that by accident doesnt make their claims any more true

Besides, it took science to put two and two together, not homeopathy

[derby378]

51. True, indeed

I used to head up a skeptics' group in Dallas. We did have a lot of fun with homeopaths who claimed to sell tablets impregnated with the essence of X-ray, moonlight, light from Polaris (part of my personal collection), and even vacuum.

[Deep13]

58. It predates most scientific medicine because it happened during the time...

...when medicine had advanced to a point where people knew that traditional therapies either did not work or were harmful. Unfortunately, knowing that traditional treatments did not work did not mean that scientific treatments were suddenly available. Many people turned toward quack theories like homeopathy because they needed something and fell into the logical trap of assuming that just because something is needed that it is necessarily available. Also compared to traditional treatments which were often uncomfortable and even harmful, the do-nothing homeopathic remedies seemed an improvement. While medicine in the 19th century may have been nearly powerless to fight disease, it did not take it long to learn that homeopathy was not the answer either.

Modern medicine in America began with the establishment of the Hopkins clinic in Baltimore. Before that, "regular" doctors learned at lectures which were neither standardized nor regulated. Often they did not even have that. The average doctor began treating illness without ever having seen a patient or having dissected a cadaver. The Hopkins facility was founded on the German model with emphasized anatomical and laboratory research. It had use of the newly developed Koch postulates which proved the germ theory of disease by allowing microbes to be isolated and identified. During the opening years of the 20th century, the number of medical schools was drastically reduced as serviceable ones were updated on the German model and bad ones were closed.

This was the era of progressive regulation. Progressive politics included an emphasis on standardization and scientific public health. It had already tackled seasonal epidemics with modern sanitation and was turning its attention of fighting disease at level of the patient. While many antitoxins were discovered that mediated the damage that bacterial infections could cause, no real treatment existed for infections until after WWI. Death from post operative disease in WWI was similar to previous wars. Doctors knew germs caused it, but were powerless to prevent it. By WWII, post operative disease was almost nonexistent. The difference was not any natural remedy designed to treat "the whole person." Indeed, most of the patients were not whole persons having been the victims of modern warfare. The difference in a word was Sulfa, the first antibiotic drug. By the 1950s, most of the diseases that stalked and killed children were either barred by vaccine or were easily defeated with Sulfa.

[derby378]

90. I thought the first one was penicillin

Still, you're dead on. :hi:

[Deep13]

99. Penicillin was discovered first, but Flemming did not realize ...

...the implication of his discovery right away. It was decades before it was used. "Sulfa" is actually a catagory of chemically similar drugs. I do not know if penicillin falls under that label or not.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

101. No, sulfa drugs were first. Penicillin came on the scene around the middle of WWII.

Neither completely eliminated the threat of infections, but they made it astronomically better. Penicillin was likewise much better than the sulfa drugs, although due to supplies sulfa drugs were still commonly used into the fifties, IIRC.

[Fire Walk With Me]

47. You're right.

I suggest a few cigarrettes, a nice deep bong hit, and then some peyote.

[Deep13]

59. Ugh! And then some Pepto Bismol. nt

[Reverend_Smitty]

48. Richard Dawkins made a great little documentary about alternative healing...

and our general distrust of science. It's called the Enemies of Reason and it's available on google video if you are interested in checking it out

[Deep13]

60. I will look for it. nt

[mainegreen]

50. Also, once upon a time many home remedies did work. Then bacteria and virus developed resistance.

And many home remedies stopped working.

Thrush used to be treatable by gentian violet extract. People would be told by doctors to use it because the yeast could be killed/inhibited by it. Doctors no longer tell people to use that because yeast has evolved to the point where that no longer works.

This happens to all medicine: homeopathic or industrial.

[Deep13]

63. In the case homeopathic, it never worked.

The only time scientific medicine stops working is when bacteria or viruses evolve and are no longer susceptible to the antibiotic or vaccine. Other scientific treatments are not effected in that way. Aspirin works as well today as it did in 1900.

Homeopathy is based on the idea that a substance similar to the disease will stimulate the body to fight the disease. Logically, this does not make sense since the person who already has the disease is already stimulated to fight it. Second, the doses are so infinitesimally small that often a patient cannot be sure of getting a single molecule of the medication. Anyway, even if it were a good idea that does not mean it works. Only clinical testing against a control group can show that.

[mainegreen]

80. Is that what homeopathy is? How bizarre.

I thought is was another name for using herbs/other.

Homeopathy is odd then, isn't it?

[Fire Walk With Me]

61. Say! Anyone here ever take note of the amount of antioxidant in Goji berries?

It turns out that some plants are good for you.

[Deep13]

64. A lot of plants are good for us.

Broccoli, for example.

[Fire Walk With Me]

70. I rub broccoli in my wounds, all because of their vast healing power.

[Deep13]

97. Oh yeah? Well I bath in broccoli juice!

Anything as long as I don't have to eat the stuff. Bleck!

[Fire Walk With Me]

112. You should attempt that with carrot juice.

You could land a "villian-of-the-week" role on Lost in Space :rofl:

[Tuesday Afternoon]

67. didn't valium derive from valerian root? doesn't penecillin derive

from moldy bread? isn't aspirin derived from white willow bark?

[kimmerspixelated]

111. Ding!Ding!Ding!

Touche' Tuesday Afternoon!

Folks that think all alternative meds are bogus must understand their synthesized meds are formed after models(herbs,etc.) the drug companies believed had worked. They can't patent nature so they had to create something!!!

[Taverner]

108. And I can sell you a bottle of Monavie for $50

It will last you a week, and cure everything ever known to man!!!!!!

[Fire Walk With Me]

113. I use Gojis whenever I can afford them (haven't worked in a while)

and I always feel better from having done so. Antioxidants are within current science's boundaries, and Gojis measure some five times more content than their Western contemporaries. Check it out, it's the real deal.

[Crazy Dave]

62. How about a good slug of Granny's "rheumatism medicine"?

[Deep13]

66. I see a red "x," but will assume you mean booze. nt

[Crazy Dave]

105. Yeah for some reason the image is blocked now

But that's what she used to call her 200 proof, white lightning

[JitterbugPerfume]

76. people are looking for a simple answer

in a complicated world

[AirmensMom]

88. My dad died

after he got a Staph infection in the hospital. He was treated with antibiotics and the infection only got worse. This is supposedly one of the best hospitals in the country and it's full of allopathic doctors. I suppose if he had died without taking the meds, it would be his fault for not trusting doctors and science. Or did he do it right by dying even while he did trust the doctors and science? Or is it that when homeopathy doesn't work, it's snake oil, but when allopathy doesn't work, well, that's different?

How do you know your friend doesn't have a similar infection and that it might not have responded, even with immediate treatment? Antibiotics do not kill every infection, even if they're given at the beginning.

People do what works for them. I have treated my cats with homeopathic remedies with success, even after the usual meds failed. And talk about shelling out money! The meds cost many times as much as the homeopathic remedies. I'm not saying it works for everything, but I never can understand the arrogance of people here who ridicule the observations, experiences, choices, and beliefs of others.

Oh, and I'm a Christian too. Your lack of tolerance is noted.

[Taverner]

107. On the Christian note, I have no respect for faith

None, what so ever.

Sam Harris is too mild in my opinion.

Anything that cannot be back by empirical evidence is either quackery, or a good candidate for R&D.

As for your Father, I sincerely (and I do mean that) feel and sympathize for your loss. I cannot imagine what it would be to lose a parent.


Staph is one of those things that is scary, thus giving even more impetus to treat infections right away with real meds, not non-science. Any infection can be come Staph, and that's what is scary, because any given human being has a few infections they don't even notice at all times (theoretically our stomach is one big infection that helps us)

[HEyHEY]

100. Homeophobe!

[Crunchy Frog]

114. It's cheap, it's harmless, and it can be an effective placebo.

Unless you're using it in place of a recognized medical treatment for a serious condition, I don't see what the problem is.

I don't trust doctors particularly either, but I think I've got a higher level of discretion than your friend, who behaved just plain stupidly.