More laptop questions: does Vista suck so bad that I should pay extra to get XP?

[Fran Kubelik]

I can pay $99 to get XP on a Dell Latitude. Anyone have any feedback on whether that's worth it?

I kind of want one of those silly Inspirons with the pretty colors, but they only come with Vista. And yeah...it's dumb to choose a laptop just because it's pretty. :( But it IS pretty. Sigh.

[datasuspect]

1. no, it's all hype and fanboy gibberish

they do this every time Microsoft releases a new OS.

just download SP1 it fixes some of the lag issues.

[Fran Kubelik]

2. some of the lag issues...

Ugh.

Thanks, datasuspect.

[pokerfan]

53. Right

Fanboys such as Intel and their 80K employees. Lot of other companies are doing likewise but Intel is the most embarrassing for Microsoft.

[woo me with science]

3. What I dislike about Vista

is that it's always trying to protect me from myself. Every damned thing you do requires a password, and I feel insecure about disabling them without disabling my security.

It's cumbersome to use compared to XP, and I don't like how it looks. That being said, I have a feeling some of this could be solved if I did a research mission on how to change my settings. It is just so damned inconvenient.

[DS1]

30. here

http://www.google.com/search?q=turn+off+uac&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t

[woo me with science]

41. Thank you.

I should have posted on DU about this a long time ago! :)

[begin_within]

4. Get a MacBook

then you can make fun of all the Windows users

[Danger Mouse]

6. Oh please. OS fanboys are SO annoying.

:eyes:

[begin_within]

35. Not as annoying as jealous Windows users

[Danger Mouse]

56. Jealous? Of what? If I want a Mac, I'll get one. I might at one point.

I like them. I just think it's stupid to make fun of someone for the OS you use.

[Deja Q]

9. Naah. I'd rather recommend a computer...

:yoiks:

[hobbit709]

5. I'd suggest playing a little on one first

My main beef with Vista is the DRM crap.

[truedelphi]

13. What is DRM??

Never had to ask things like that when a teenager lived here.

[RoyGBiv]

36. Digital Restrictions Management ...

Well, the purveyors of DRM want it to be Digital Rights Management, but the former is more accurate.

Basically it's anything that restricts your ability to view/hear or otherwise use content in a digital form.

This begins to explain Vista's DRM more objectively than I would:

"Vista's DRM technologies fall into several distinct categories, all of which are either completely new to the operating system or represent a significant change from the technology found in previous versions of Windows. The Intel-developed Trusted Platform Module (TPM) makes DRM harder to circumvent by extending it beyond the operating system and into the PC's hardware components ..."

"A set of related technologies grouped under the name Output Protection Management (OPM) also takes DRM to the hardware level. Perhaps the most prominent (or notorious) OPM technology, known as Protected Video Path (PVP), provides a good example of how hardware-based DRM works and what it can do. PVP content-protection technology is supported both in Windows Vista and within a small but growing number of high-end graphics adapters, high-definition displays and even digital display connector cables. It is intended, first and foremost, to protect the high-quality digital content that is slowly becoming available on the next-generation Blu-ray and HD-DVD optical media technology..."

"What does all this mean to a typical Windows Vista user who just wants to sit back, relax and watch a movie on his brand-new, state-of-the-art multimedia dream machine? That depends, of course, to a great extent on what he wants to watch; the latest Hollywood blockbuster is far more likely to require a PVP-compliant system than less mainstream fare. But sooner or later, most Vista users will probably encounter PVP-protected content -- and more often than not, they will walk away from the encounter at least a little frustrated, disappointed or even angry.

"Matt Rosoff, lead analyst at research firm Directions On Microsoft, asserts that this process does not bode well for new content formats such as Blu-ray and HD-DVD, neither of which are likely to survive their association with DRM technology. "I could not be more skeptical about the viability of the DRM included with Vista, from either a technical or a business standpoint," Rosoff stated. "It's so consumer-unfriendly that I think it's bound to fail -- and when it fails, it will sink whatever new formats content owners are trying to impose.""

http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=printArticleBasic&articleId=9005047

[truedelphi]

58. Thank you for the wonderful and detailed info n/t

[DarkTirade]

7. I've been leery of Vista ever since it came out...

but like every OS that Microsoft has put out since '95, it sucks at first, the patches come through and it gets mostly fixed, then they make a new one and start all over. 98 sucked incredibly. 98 SE was pretty good. XP sucked incredibly at first. XP with service pack 2 is pretty good. I'm just gonna give Vista some time to get over the suck.

[Betty88]

8. Get enough ram and turn off a few services...

and it should work fine. We have a Dell 1420 with Vista 3 gigs of ram no problems with it.

[EstimatedProphet]

10. Vista's OK with enough RAM

And turn off a lot of the options, like the one that asks if it's OK to download anything.

[LeftyMom]

11. You can buy your own copy and install it for less than that.

The way I see it, you're either going to need to install XP or drop in more memory. DIY, either one's going to run you $60-80 ish. Vista works fine if you turn off all of the security nags and have enough memory, but in my experience XP SP2 is much more stable. If you already have a copy of XP, you can use your Vista serial number and downgrade for free, though I think you have to call Microsuck to give them your Vista code and get an XP one.

I would get it shipped with Vista and then install XP myself, that way I'd have the Vista code later when they get the kinks out and maybe it's worth switching back (or if you need to have Vista to upgrade to whatever the version is, if it's decent.) I think you could probably do both XP and more memory (in which case you should have a pretty damn fast computer) for that $99 if you do it yourself.

[Fran Kubelik]

15. for $99 you get XP installed and vista on a disc for later

:shrug:
I'm gettting 2GB of RAM installed and am buying an additional 2GB to install myself (cheaper than having them install it when they build it - like 1/3 less).

Trying to get the most good stuff for the cheapest price.

[LeftyMom]

18. That sounds like a plan then.

That way you get the best of both worlds, imo.

[deucemagnet]

27. Can your operating system utilize all that RAM?

My box maxes out at 8 gigs of ram, but until I upgrade to a 64-bit OS I can only use the 3 gigs I already have, so I'm not bothering to upgrade my ram in the near future. Do you know if your OS can utilize 4GB?

[Fran Kubelik]

28. I think so....

4GB factory installed was an option. Though I have to admit I don't know enough to answer definitively.

[deucemagnet]

32. I have Vista Home Premium 32-bit and I can only use 3GB right now.

Officially, at least. I've heard that if I upgrade to 4GB I'll be able to use a fraction of the extra 1GB. You might want to check on that, though. Rather than buying more RAM than you can use right now, you might be better off waiting for a good deal on New Egg or Tiger Direct.

[Kutjara]

46. 32 bit Windows can only access 3GB.

It's a fundamental limitation of the bit depth of the OS. 64 bit versions can access many terabytes of RAM.

If you want to get the full benefit of your 4GB, make sure you install Vista 64. Unfortunately, 99% of PCs sold with Vista preinstalled use 32 bit, so you'll have to send off to Microsoft for a 64 bit disk if you want to use that instead.

For those interested in why 32 bit systems are limited in this way, here's the math:

A 32 bit OS has 2^32 bits of addressable space (i.e. slots to put data in). This translates to 4,294,967,296 bits. Convert this into bytes and you end up with just over 4GB of addressable space. The OS simply can't "see" any more than that (just like the old 16 bit systems of the DOS era couldn't see more than 64 kilobytes.)

"Great," you say, "so I can use 4GB of RAM, right?" Wrong. Every device attached to your system carves out a piece of your RAM for itself, too. So your graphics card, keyboard, mouse, hard disk, USB devices...you name it...all take a little wedge of your precious memory away. Typically, this amounts to about 500-600 MB, leaving you with 3.5GB out of your original 4. Windows takes an even more conservative approach and blocks out almost a gigabyte, so you end up with around 3.12GB of RAM as the maximum usable RAM on 32 bit Windows systems.

Of course, 64 bit OSes can address 2^64 or 1.844674407370955 x 10^19 bits, which should let us use all the RAM we like for the foreseeable future.

[deucemagnet]

48. Thanks for the explanation!

I'd like to eventually upgrade to the 64-bit OS, but right now all of the drivers available for my machine are 32-bit.:(

[Pierre.Suave]

64. Interestingly enough

I could put 32GBs of ram in my Mac Pro if I wanted to...

I also have 4GBs of ram in my Macbook Pro...

[Kutjara]

66. Then I'm guessing your machines are running either...

...Tiger or Leopard on Core2Duo chips. The C2D is a 64 bit chip and Tiger and Leopard are both 64 bit operating systems (athough there is also a 32 bit version of both, which will run on first gen CoreDuo machines). I've got 4GB in my Santa Rosa MacBook too, which is the maximum it can take, but this is a hardware limitation imposed by Apple, not a function of the OS.

64 bit systems can theoretically take 16 exabytes of RAM, but real world computers like the Mac Pro typically have arbitrary hardware limitations (like the 32 GB you mention) imposed on them, for the simple reason that nobody currently needs more RAM, and it would be prohibitively expensive to design an architecture that can support the full 64 bit address space. Laptops are even more restricted (due to physical space constraints and heat issues), so 4GB is still pretty much the maximum you can currently cram into them.

[Pierre.Suave]

67. leopard on All the macs

The Mac Pro has 2 quad core Xeons at 3.2ghz and the laptop has a Core2Duo at 2.4ghz...

and I am aware that OSX is now a 64 bit OS.

[Kutjara]

68. OK, I misunderstood your point.

I thought you were implying you were able to run 32GB in a 32 bit machine.

What I think you were really saying is that new Macs support the full 64 bit space out of the box, while most preinstalled Vista machines (regardless of the processor's capabilities) are still being hobbled with 32 bit versions of the OS? :shrug:

[Pierre.Suave]

69. yes

no silly restrictions imposed like the ones in Vista.

[Kutjara]

70. I'm with you on that.

Apparently, you can apply to M$ for a 64 bit disk if you own a 32 bit version of Vista (and don't want to pay for Business or Ultimate), but who the hell wants to wait a month or more before they can start using their OS? It's even worse if, after installing it, you find out that some of your hardware drivers don't have 64 bit versions yet (which still seems to be the case with some laptops).

[woo me with science]

21. What security nags can you turn off

safely?

[LeftyMom]

22. That whole UAC "did you really mean to start this program/wipe your own ass" thing.

http://lifehacker.com/software/vista/windows-vista-tip--disable-annoying-need-your-permission-to-continue-prompts-230866.php

[woo me with science]

23. Thank you!

Thank you, thank you, thank you! I have been wanting to do this for so long but never got around to looking it up. Today is FINALLY my day to make Vista more user-friendly.

Btw, you have about the coolest kid on DU. But I'm sure you already know that. :-)

[LeftyMom]

24. Awww, thanks!

I'm incredibly proud of him.

[newmajority]

44. The UAC is the obvious one, but there's a lot of useless shit that can be disabled

Here's a good reference for shutting down what you don't need in Vista.

http://www.blackviper.com/WinVista/supertweaks.htm

And for those still using XP....

http://www.blackviper.com/WinXP/supertweaks.htm

Because every Windows product since 2000 has been designed as a network operating system, the default installation comes with a lot of crap that would only be used in a corporate networking environment, and unfortunately there's no way to prevent these options from being installed in the first place*. So the best alternative is to shut them down after a clean install of Windows.










*(there are tools such as "nlite" which allow for customized Windows installations, but I'd only recommend them to dedicated IT "geeks" who would be able to fix their own mistakes if they screwed something up in that process)

[woo me with science]

55. Thank you very extremely much!

These look fantastic. I think I have my XP pared down pretty well, but Vista has me utterly confused. There are so many programs running on it, and I have no idea what is really necessary. This looks like it will be very helpful-our whole family thanks you.

[dolo amber]

12. As someone who answers this question every day, let me put in my $.02

MS will not be "supporting" XP after...hell I dunno, after a month or so (it keeps changing). Thus, there will be no more updates, patches, etc. That's about it. Vista is only a pain in that some of your programs/peripherals may not work properly, but as more people get it of course those fixes/drivers will be more readily available. Also, the playskool-esque interface is kinda lame. (<--MHO)

I'd be more wary of buying a Dell, as they are pretty much on a mission to make even their most basic replaceable hardware proprietary. We had one in last week that the heatsink/fan cost about $229 to replace (pre-markup, shipping, etc) because it had to be DELL SPECIFIC. Super, super lame. Dell, you are not Apple. :eyes:

Again, just my $.02. :hi:

[truedelphi]

14. We at this XP household have had it with the Patches.

If no more support means no more patches, then I guess we will be quite happy to live without them.

In the meantime we are going to figure out what we need to do to move over to Firefox as our browser and S&^tcan Internet Explorer

[Pierre.Suave]

42. that is the easiest thing in the computing world to do

go here: www.mozilla.com and download Firefox. install it, and you are done.

You can not delete IE, but you can choose not to use it.

[truedelphi]

59. I'm not sure on our system that would be that simple

It is a SOny Vaio and there are two separate places (One in a Windows folder and one in a Vaio folder) wherein you need to expalin what browser you want as your default.

And even after you explain that to those two places, sometimes the non-MIcro$oft selection will still be ignored.

But we are gonna give it a try! And keep our fingers crossed.

[Pierre.Suave]

60. I think you are making this WAY

more complicated than it has to be.

you download and install Firefox, start it up and it will ask you if you want to use it as your default browser, say yes, and you are all done...

it will even import your bookmarks from IE automagically...

[truedelphi]

61. Possibly!

But a lot of things happen on this system that I can find no reasonable explanation for.

For instance, ever since I gave permission for YouTube videos to be played, I cannot get sound out of the speakers.

Before YouTube was allowed to play vids, I could get sound.

Now we have to use headphones to hear anything over the system.

And going into the control panel and making selections there doesn't seem to help. I mean, from everything I am checking, the speakers are registered as working, selected, and having the proper drivers.

Yet no sound.

[Pierre.Suave]

62. I have an idea

erase the computer and re-install the OS.

Which windows OS are you using anyway?

[truedelphi]

63. We are using the Home Version of XP.

And I would never erase the system unless something far more serious than the speaker issue was occurring.

i am sure that not everything on this system is backed up.

[Pierre.Suave]

65. Well if you are on XP

download firefox, install it, run it, and then say yes to using it as your default browser, and you are done.

[jberryhill]

54. Patches?

We ain't got no patches....



We don't need no steenking patches!

[Fran Kubelik]

17. ok, so what would YOU get that costs less than $1,000?

Is Gateway better? I hate Toshiba...

[dolo amber]

20. Actually, we sell tons of Acer and almost never have a problem with them

They've been popular in Europe for a while from what I understand but are just breaking into the American market.

Y'know, you should pm me. I can get things wholesale! :bounce: :hi:

[Fran Kubelik]

50. Right on, Miss Marmestein

:hi:

[Maddy McCall]

33. Don't even think about buying a Gateway....

and you can PM me, if you like, for my story about them.

Horrible customer service, once they've made the sale. Overcharge on credit card. Hardware failure after hardware failure. Hinges replaced umpteen times.

Don't go Gateway.

[Fran Kubelik]

51. Thanks!

I had a nagging feeling about them. I will definitely stay away.

[ghostsofgiants]

34. Vista is slightly less playskool-esque than XP though.

Dell specific heatsink/fan? The fuck?

[RoyGBiv]

37. 2014 ...

http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/24/microsoft-promises-to-support-windows-xp-until-2014/

Bit more than a few months.

Businesses just aren't moving to Vista and won't. They were able to put enough pressure on Microsoft that they pretty much had to cave or open themselves up a gaping whole for competition.

[PeaceNikki]

38. Some businesses are. My company is moving to Vista.

And it's really quite painless.

Companies that work with antiquated software and/or hardware aren't.

[RoyGBiv]

40. *Some* are ...

"Some" are still running Windows 2000. I'm not talking about "some."

The propagation rate of Vista in business environments is horrendous from a Microsoft perspective. They don't openly admit that, but their actions clearly indicate it is a rather severe problem, e.g. their accounting department includes every sale of XP now as a Vista sale, the extension of XP support, the focus turning to Windows 7, etc.

It's not painless for an organization with 2000 computers that have 1MB of RAM and will need to add another Gig at least to all of those computers so that they run as well as they need them to run. The organization I work for has over 10,000 computers deployed. They did some tests and determined operation would be brought to a crawl if they did a Vista deployment without a hardware upgrade. (These are not "antiquated" computers. Most are 3-4 years old and do everything this organization needs done perfectly well.) The costs involved in "upgrading" are prohibitive with no benefit.

[KG]

16. Vista doesn't wanna play nice with some older programs, and figuring out some of the new twists on

GUI is annoying, but my Vista seems to doing ok.

[carlyhippy]

19. vista can be a pain

mine lags, and it's constantly checking security for this and security for that, I guess it's a good thing but it can slow down web surfing, the graphics I guess are better, supposidly...I can't really tell the difference.

[Madrone]

25. The thing with Vista is this -

If it works for you and doesn't cause any problems it can be pretty nice, even great. If you are one of the ones with issues and have problems it's a complete and total pain the the ass. The machine I have at home with Vista Ultimate on it has been stable and I've not had any issues. Granted, I haven't used it much yet and won't for another week when I get a new TV. It's destined to be a Media Center and when I got it and tried to connect it to my ordinary CRT tv it was practically unusable (the display, not the computer).

The biggest problem I've had with Vista on *other* people's machines (I work for an ISP) is getting networking to behave properly. Not *everyone's* - but it's come up a number of times, including on the Vista box we bought ourselves so we'd have some sort of visual to in order to walk people through issues as our workstations are all XP.

Based on what you've said I would go ahead and get XP - $99 is relatively cheap, and you still get Vista with it. I see this as a win-win. You're getting more bang for your buck, you're getting the choice, and you're getting the opportunity to change your mind at will. When you first get it install Vista (taking care not to overwrite the XP partition if they don't send you any physical media) and try it out for awhile. If you find it aggravating, go back to XP.

[Fran Kubelik]

29. Ok, so I did it. Here's my specs.

1 222-8075 Latitude D531, AMD Turion 64 X2 Mobile Processor TL-60 (2.00GHz 1M) $880.25
1 320-5330 15.4 inch Wide Screen WXGA LCDfor Latitude D531 $0.00
1 311-5688 2.0GB, DDR2-667 SDRAM, 1 DIMM for Dell Latitude Notebooks $0.00
1 320-5332 ATI RADEON X1270 Integrated Graphics, Latitude D531 $0.00
1 341-4569 120GB Hard Drive 9.5MM 5400RPM for Latitude DX30 $0.00
1 466-6167 Windows XP Pro SP2 with Vista Business License, Dell Latitude, English $0.00
1 310-7283 65W AC Adapter for Latitude D-Family $0.00
1 313-5638 8X DVD+/-RW for Latitude D-Family $0.00
1 420-8667 Cyberlink Power DVD 8.0 Playback Software WITH Media Dell Latitude/Mobile Precision $0.00
1 420-8010 Roxio Creator Dell Edidion,9.0Dell Latitude/Mobile Precision $0.00
1 430-2305 Dell Wireless 1505 Draft 802.11n WLAN Mini Card Latitude $0.00
1 310-8949 Resource CD w/ Diagnostics andDrivers for Latitude D531 Notebook $0.00
1 310-9158 Resource DVD with Diagnostics and Drivers for Vista Latitude D531 $0.00
1 312-0490 6-Cell/56 WHr Primary Battery Latitude D531 $0.00
1 986-2680 Basic Support: Next Business Day Parts and Labor Onsite Response Initial Year $0.00
1 989-4147 Dell Hardware Limited Warranty Plus Onsite Service Initial Year $0.00
1 989-4148 Dell Hardware Limited Warranty Plus Onsite Service Extended Year(s) $0.00
1 985-7072 Basic Support: Next Business Day Parts and Labor Onsite Response 2 Year Extended $0.00
1 373-0019 Factory Enable 40GB Primary Partition, Remainder Secondaryfor Latitude, OptiPlex Precision $5.43
1 310-9160 Vista Premium Downgrade Relationship Notebook $.00


Thanks for your input!

[jobycom]

26. No. There's nothing wrong with it, it's just not worth paying to upgrade.

I imagine there's some technical area of expertise where Vista is bad--intense gaming or something. But I've got it on a few computers at work and one of my desktops at home, and have no problems of any sort with it. For basic operations, it's fine, and there are even little things I like better about it.

If you are buying a computer because it's pretty (no problem with that), then you probably aren't concerned with all of the intense hyper-clocking pipeline-throughing number-crunching nuances, anyway. The truth is that most computers now have a lot more than 80% of consumers will ever use, so looks and price are as good as any criteria, once you get above the disposable house-brand variety, where you have to worry about durability.

The big thing I heard on Vista was it wasn't worth paying a hundred or two to upgrade from XP. I heard some gurus who didn't want it on new computers, but their reasons were beyond what most people would need to worry about for basic gaming/accounting/home office/Internet use.

Short answer: One of my seven home computers (counting kids' and ex-spouse's), and three of my 18 or so work computers have it, and I've never run into any issue with it. Those computers are even the favorites, though that's probably because they are the newest.

[RoyGBiv]

39. Depends ...

Basic use for most people often includes viewing digital media, and that can be problematic on a Vista machine without the correct hardware. A new system will have the "correct hardware" in this sense (DRM enabled), although it may not have the correct hardware for it to run reasonably well.

[jobycom]

43. Maybe, in a few years, that could be an issue, but that's way over-hyped.

I'm not an expert on this by any means, but from what I understand, all the DRM stuff involving Vista isn't even an issue yet. The encoding will come on the discs or downloads themselves, and aren't being used yet. Everything not encoded, meaning everything available now, should still work. The theory is that future protected content won't work with XP or other OS's, so the problems are made worse, not solved, by using XP.

The bigger issue--that Microsoft is enabling a hated DRM system that angers everyone and forshadows all music and video playing devices maybe being limited to proprietary media formats--is troubling, but that's a different issue. We already have that issue with IPods, anyway.

Fill me in if I'm wrong, I'm not a geek on this. Just a user.

[RoyGBiv]

45. It's hyped ...

I wouldn't call it "over-hyped" though.

The DRM of which we speak is already in use, mostly on hi-def discs. It's also an issue with some hardware that doesn't conform to Microsoft's DRM scheme, usually older harder and the newer stuff that came out around the same time Vista was released. I've personally seen a newer LCD monitor that wouldn't work in Vista. I didn't trouble-shoot the issue down to a level that I could positively say it was DRM related, but I suspect it, since the monitor worked fine using the same hardware and a different operating system. (It could have been a video driver problem. Drivers on Vista are still an issue with some things.)

As of a few months ago there was also a problem with the online service provided by Netflix. It's actually an issue with the networking, but for the end-user it's the same. Netflix has a sloppy fix, emphasis on "sloppy." It may be integrated into the Netflix service generally now and so transparent to the user, but from my third-party eye helping a friend get it working after dealing with Netflix phone support (very friendly and helpful, btw, and *very* frustrated at all the Vista related issues they were having) it seems as though it could be a security risk.

The bigger issue you mention is in fact the bigger issue, but it's not as simple as that. What we're talking about here is hardware level restrictions enforced by the OS. (Standard copy protection is software level restriction.) That is, to use the OS, you have to have "certified" hardware. We're rapidly working in reverse, moving from being able to put your own system together out of whatever parts you want to being forced to purchase hardware that a software company (and the corporate influences of Big Media) deems allowable. It's a broader implementation of the nonsense you see with the industry revolving around printers and ink production, locking the consumer into what is essentially proprietary hardware.

And before they show up to beat me down, no, I'm not blaming Microsoft for all this. But, they're an integral part of it.

[jobycom]

47. That all sounds driver-related.

First, I've watched Netflix streaming movies on Vista, so the issue isn't consistently a problem. That's a glitch which can be fixed, just like all the driver/compatibility problems with XP/ME/98, on down the line. As for the monitor, that sounds like a driver. DRM protection shouldn't affect a monitor unless code-protected media is being watched, anyway. Maybe the driver is interacting with the DRM restrictions somehow, but again, that's a glitch, and not likely to happen with a laptop.

The over-hype to me are the critics claiming that Vista will require all monitors to be replaced, that only DRM protected media will be viewable, that DRM safeguards will slow down all programs, etc. One critic called Vista "The longest suicide note in history," as if the problems were so extreme they would bring Microsoft down. In favor of Mac or Linux, I guess. :shrug:

But yeah, it's got bugs, and some may be DRM related, although that's not what the DRM stuff is supposed to do. When it's working, those aren't issues. For my basic use, I haven't had any issues yet.

I agree about the bigger picture. Wasn't trying to undersell it, I just was tired of typing by then. :) One reason it might not get as bad as all that, though, is because of what happened to Apple. Apple was so proprietary that people stopped using it. Microsoft and different And there is a big market for build-your-own stuff, and they won't want to kill that market entirely. Microsoft has an issue with home-builts because home-builders tend to use duplicate copies of Windows, or hard drives with the OS already installed, or a copy they bought for a since-caput computer (I've done all three). That means Microsoft isn't selling a new license for those home-builts, whereas they are for the computer off the shelf. So they probably want to make that market smaller, or more likely, they want to require some form of license on all periphrals and components, thus giving them a bigger cut of the market. But I don't think they want to go to where Mac is, with everything coming out of one box, and choices being so limited that most people decide they don't need a Mac.

There's a lot involving politics, too. Republicans like mega-corporations like Microsoft, so they don't enforce regulations, and their tax structures favor mega-corps. Dems favor smaller businesses, so they regulate and they structure taxes towards helping startup and smaller businesses. We saw this in the 90s, where the big business mindset of Reagan gave way to the diverse economy mindset of Clinton. You saw the emergence of more computer companies, more components made independently, more software options emerge. You saw bigger corporations spin off less productive departments, which were run more efficiently as an independent company.

I think the market, like politics, tends to be centrist, and the more proprietary Microsoft gets, the more consumers will look for other options--maybe including trust and monopoly lawsuits. On the other side, when computers get to component-oriented so that consumers have to buy everything separately and piece them together, consumers get upset, too.

Anyway, that's not enough of reason for an individual to buy or reject Vista. :) Just something to worry about for the future.

[RoyGBiv]

49. Driver related ...

The monitor issue may well have been. Like I said, I dunno. I have limits on how much free labor I'm willing to do, especially when I know a simpler way to do something. :)

The Netflix issue wasn't. This was awhile back, and as mentioned, I talked to Netflix about it, and the tech was extremely frustrated. He knew precisely what to do, however, because he'd been doing it for awhile. I can't even say I fixed it. They did, by uploading a file to the machine that circumvented the problem. It was just a text/config file that Netflix accessed when you tried to view a movie, and from what I could tell, it had some networking instructions that routed around some Vista internals. (I can't explain it any further than that.)

Microsoft would explain it's not a problem with Vista, but a problem with Netflix and their compatibility with Vista, which is technically true.

At any rate, as you say, the real problem with Vista's DRM will come in the future. But, I do think that's a reason to reject Vista. Broad acceptance legitimizes the efforts of Microsoft and Intel to appease the media gods at RIAA and BSA.

[ScreamingMeemie]

31. Get the Vaio...Get the Vaio...Get the Vaio

I hated Vista at first but it just took some getting used to. It wasn't compatible, at first, with any of my appraisal software. I had to call and have them help me work with it. It isn't fun, but once it's all set up it's not bad.

[Fran Kubelik]

52. I almost went with the Sony on your advice

...but I think I got a great deal on a Dell. I got a 3 year next-business-day service warranty and most of the specs I wanted for a really decent (under $1,000) price. The only trade-off is that it's not a pretty laptop - I really liked the colors and patterns on some of the other, less durable laptops. :) But I was convinced that buying a laptop based on how pretty it is is like buying a car because I like the color. ;)

[TrogL]

57. Vista is an unholy mess

They've moved everything around to even more non-intuitive places, it routinely locks up for no particularly good reason and software that runs fine under XP either won't run at all or has wierd differences.

IE7, in particular, is an utter nightmare, especially in handling favorites.