Top 10 Reasons Not to Eat Pigs

[ElsewheresDaughter]

Pigs in the grass

WATCH :loveya: ...
http://www.youtube.com/v/6PNexpa9HdU






1 Porking You Up
It's a fact—ham, sausage, and bacon strips will go right to your hips. Eating pork products, which are loaded with artery-clogging cholesterol and saturated fat, is a good way to increase your waistline and increase your chances of developing deadly diseases such as heart disease, diabetes, arthritis, osteoporosis, Alzheimer's, asthma, and impotence. Research has shown that vegetarians are 50 percent less likely to develop heart disease, and they have 40 percent of the cancer rate of meat-eaters. Plus, meat-eaters are nine times more likely to be obese than pure vegetarians are. Every time you eat animal products, you're also ingesting bacteria, antibiotics, dioxins, hormones, and a host of other toxins that can accumulate in your body and remain there for years. Learn more about animal products and your health.

2Pigs Have Feelings Too
Ninety-seven percent of pigs in the United States today are raised in factory farms, where they will never run across sprawling pastures, bask in the sun, breathe fresh air, or do anything else that comes naturally to them. Crowded into warehouses with nothing to do and nowhere to go, they are kept on a steady diet of drugs to keep them alive and make them grow faster, but the drugs cause many of the animals to become crippled under their own bulk. Learn more about cruelty to pigs. Check out these videos from pig farms in Oklahoma, North Carolina, Nebraska, and South Dakota.

3Pigs and Playstations
Think that you can outplay a pig on your Playstation? You may be surprised. According to research, pigs are much smarter than dogs, and they even do better at video games than some primates. In fact, pigs are extremely clever animals who form complex social networks and have excellent memories. Eating a pig is like eating your dog! As actor Cameron Diaz put it after hearing that pigs have the mental capacities of a 3-year-old human: " like eating my niece!" Learn more about pigs.

4 Pigs Prefer Mud, Not Crud
Pigs are actually very clean animals. If they are given sufficient space, pigs are careful not to soil the areas where they sleep or eat. And forget the silly saying "sweating like a pig"—pigs can't even sweat! That's why they bathe in water or mud to cool off. But in factory farms, they're forced to live in their own feces and vomit and even amid the corpses of other pigs. Conditions are so filthy that at any given time, more than one-quarter of pigs suffer from mange—think of your worst case of poison ivy, and imagine having to suffer from it for the rest of your life. Learn more about what happens to pigs in factory farms. Check out the mange-ridden pigs on these South Dakota and Nebraska pig farms.

5 Farming Family Values
Factory farms are pure hell for pigs and their babies. Mother pigs spend most of their lives in tiny "gestation" crates, which are so small that the animals are unable to turn around or even lie down comfortably. They are repeatedly impregnated until they are slaughtered. Piglets, who are taken away from their distraught mothers after just a few weeks, have their tails chopped off, their teeth are clipped off with pliers, and the males are castrated—all without painkillers. Learn more about cruelty to pigs.

6 The Manure Is Blowing in the Wind …
A pig farm with 5,000 animals produces as much fecal waste as a city of 50,000 people. In 1995, 25 million gallons of putrid hog urine and feces spilled into a North Carolina river, immediately killing between 10 and 14 million fish. To get around water pollution limits, factory farms will frequently take the tons of urine and feces that are stored in cesspools and turn them into liquid waste that they spray into the air. This manure-filled mist is carried away by the wind and inhaled by the people who live nearby. Learn more about how factory farming damages the environment.

7 Bacteria-Laden Bacon and Harmful Ham
Extremely crowded conditions, poor ventilation, and filth in factory farms cause such rampant disease in pigs that 70 percent of them have pneumonia by the time they're sent to the slaughterhouse. In order to keep pigs alive in conditions that would otherwise kill them and to promote unnaturally fast growth, the industry keeps pigs on a steady diet of the antibiotics that we depend on to treat human illnesses. This overuse of antibiotics has led to the development of "superbacteria," or antibiotic-resistant bacterial strains. The ham, bacon, and sausage that you're eating may make the drugs that your doctor prescribes the next time you get sick completely ineffective. Learn more about the effect of eating meat from sick, diseased, and drugged animals.

8 Hell on Wheels
More than 170,000 pigs die in transport each year, and more than 420,000 are crippled by the time they arrive at the slaughterhouse. Transport trucks, which carry pigs hundreds of miles through all weather extremes with no food or water, regularly flip over, throwing injured and dying animals onto the road. These terrified and injured animals are rarely offered veterinary care, and most languish in pain for hours; some even bleed to death on the side of the road. After an accident in April 2005, Smithfield spokesperson Jerry Hostetter told one reporter, "I hate to admit it, but it happens all the time." Learn more about cruelty to pigs during transport.

9 Killing Them Without Kindness
A typical slaughterhouse kills up to 1,100 pigs every hour, which makes it impossible for them to be given humane, painless deaths. The U.S. Department of Agriculture documented 14 humane slaughter violations at one processing plant, where inspectors found hogs who "were walking and squealing after being stunned as many as four times." Because of improper stunning methods and extremely fast line speeds, many pigs are still alive when they are dumped into scalding-hot hair-removal tanks—they literally drown in scalding-hot water. Learn more about what happens to pigs at slaughter.

10Ditch the Bacon and Get Fakin'
Save pigs from hell and yourself from bad health by feasting on faux pork products instead. Stuff a sandwich full of Yves brand veggie ham slices, or throw some Lightlife Smart Bacon into a sizzling skillet—the freezer and "health food" sections of your local grocery or health food stores are packed full of these and other tasty substitutes. Check out VegCooking.com for hundreds of recipes, product recommendations, vegan meal plans, and a shopping guide.:loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya:

[BlooInBloo]

1. Top 1 reason: Bacon Is Fucking Good...

mmmm..... bacon....

[dropkickpa]

3. Bacon is the chocolate of the meat world

Read that somewhere on here, and it just rang soooooo true. I picked up some delicious pancetta yesterday, gonna make my lettuce-hatin' version of BLT's for dinner tonight.

[BlooInBloo]

4. heh! Yup.

[Richard Steele]

17. Someone once said that -ALL- foods can be divided into two groups:

Foods that can be improved by adding chocolate,
and foods that can be improved by adding bacon.

And I tend to agree.

[EstimatedProphet]

31. Chocolate bacon is really good

http://www.vosgeschocolate.com/product/bacon_exotic_candy_bar/exotic_candy_bars

[BlooInBloo]

53. I was really drunk one time, and tried a bacon-tini. Not good. Not good AT ALL.

[Susang]

63. I love that company

I'm probably going to do my best to interview with them in the next couple of months. Supposedly, I have skills they are in need of. ;-)

[EstimatedProphet]

64. Man, talk about a job from heaven!

It might be TOO good!

[greatauntoftriplets]

65. A woman I used to work with went to Jim Beam Brands, up in Deerfield, I think it was.

She gets free samples. Talk about a dream job.

Good luck to you with them. The commute would be a lot better for you than the current one is.

:hi:

[Matariki]

67. Ah, pancetta - for the PERFECT Spaghetti Carbonara

Thick sliced pancetta, cut into bite size pieces. Boil spaghetti. Meanwhile, fry with minced onion until browned - add white wine and lower heat, cook until wine is reduced. Toss cooked spaghetti into pan and add beaten egg yolk, LOTS of black pepper and some grated fresh parmesan. Maybe a little chopped parsley.

That's it. Easy on the egg whites and NO NO NO milk or cream!

I like 'fake' bacon - especially morningstar brand - but there's no way you can make a perfect Carbonara without the pancetta.

[jgraz]

92. If you like pancetta in your Carbonara, you have to try guanciale

You'll never go back, seriously.



Shit, now I'm hungry...

[Catshrink]

7. My sentiments exactly!

I love the stuff!

[MysticalChicken]

30. I'm not fond of bacon...

It's too salty, and I don't like salty things. I won't even put salt on my food unless it really needs it. I'll eat bacon occasionally, but it's one of those foods that I really need to be in the mood for to eat. And I'll only eat bacon by itself--never on anything else.

[dropkickpa]

35. Try Pancetta

It's an italian dry-cured bacon, and VERY yummy. It is salt cured, but there's a big flavor difference.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

2. But i don't want a L.T.

I want a BLT...

[nam78_two]

5. That is sweet.nt

[Connonym]

6. Craig Ferguson once said that bacon is the reason he's no longer vegetarian

They can do wonderful things with soy protein -- I love soy crumbles and burgers, prefer soy brats to regular but they can't adequately duplicate bacon. Until they do I have to say that bacon will probably continue to be my undoing as well.

[IntravenousDemilo]

8. You forgot one.

"You're Jewish/Muslim."

[Wcross]

9. Then why did god make them out of pork chops?

Geez, if we aren't supposed to eat pigs why are they so freakin tasty? BTW- I was just about to leave for the store and you gave me an idea for dinner:)

[sasquatch]

11. That's what I say

:woohoo:

[cobalt1999]

10. and give up pulled pork sandwiches, bacon, pork chops,..

sausage and gravy biscuits, honey glazed ham, and ribs!?!

No thank you.

BTW, can I tell you what you should give up in your life?

[Kali]

37. "BTW, can I tell you what you should give up in your life?"

I like. :thumbsup:

[midlife_mo_Jo]

12. Mental capacity of a 3 year old?

Geesh It's ridiculous claims like that that make me not take the vegetarians/vegans seriously.

[cobalt1999]

18. There are two types of vegetarians/vegans.

Sort of like believers in god. One group has their beliefs but doesn't go around trying to convert people, the other group is on a crusade.

The "let's see if we can convert people" type of vegan are like the Jehovah's Witness or Evangelical Christians...basically assholes who think their "morals" should be imposed upon others. Fortunately, many vegans live their lives without trying to convert anyone.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

26. I"m not afraid of someone trying to convert me to their opinion

as long as they aren't assholes about it. :)

I just hate intellectually dishonest and downright STUPID arguments. :puke:

[Mythsaje]

75. What's so unbelievable about that?

In fact, I think that's probably an understatement, since recent studies have indicated that the smartest dogs may have the mental capacity of up to a seven year old human child. As do many corvids.

[jgraz]

93. I loves my bacon, but there's a lot of support for this claim

Especially given some of the 3-year-olds I've met.

[northzax]

13. just remember

most of thay soy protein is imported. I buy my pork products, like all the meat I can, from local, organic producers.

[nam78_two]

73. You have a point-eating local makes big difference

I cannot ever conceive of eating animal products again myself, but I think it is unlikely that we as a society as a whole will move away from them any time soon. My biggest issue has always been really the factory farming aspect and the utterly inhumane procedures used and I think buying local, patronizing farms where the animals at least lead a happy life for most of their lives, would make a huge difference.

[dropkickpa]

14. There' s a big movement in Western PA

A lot of people practising pasture raising of cattle, swine, and other food animals. I just spoke with a guy yesterday who pasture raises his swine, keeping them like REAL pigs, not the namby-pamby factory pigs, and, from speaking to the HUGE line of people waiting to buy, his product is DELICIOUS! He was sold out of what I wanted (pork butt), but I got his card and will be seeking his products out. His pigs are pretty much outdoors all the time except for his farrowing stalls (not the little pen we all hear about, a big actual stall, I asked the dimensions) and in winter the younger ones tend to come inside to the barn. He said most of them prefer to be outside most of the time, though they are free to come and go in the barns. It's a small operation, as most of these are, but I see/hear about more and more of them popping up all over. And the higher end restaurants are usually the top buyers at these locales. Support your local farms, buy local (it's tastier!)!

[ironflange]

15. I have a nice piece of pork tenderloin marinating right now

It's hitting the grill in a couple of hours.

[skygazer]

16. I prefer to raise and eat my own pigs

And I've always thought it a poor argument against eating anything to point out how intelligent it is - why is it worse to eat an intelligent animal than a stupid one? That seems more callous to me than being an equal-opportunity carnivore.

[BarenakedLady]

19. So adorable

I love piggies!



Me and a "friend" at Farm Sanctuary in NY.

[Guava Jelly]

98. Dang it BNL

I love pork grrrr!!!
But you are so stinken cute!!
Why can't this be a don't eat beef thread..I'd give up cows in a shot.
At least that guy is safe.

[BarenakedLady]

104. Hehehe

It's a good thing I love pigs, it is the only meat that tasted really good to me.

Thanks for the compliment!

:D

[Inchworm]

126. Yes you are!

Hey you!

Alls I'm able to see in this picture is you, straw hay, and a big ole pillow! :evilgrin:

:hide:

You look marvolous by the way. Rawr!

flirt- flirt- flirt :loveya:

:hi:

[BarenakedLady]

140. Awwww

You are a sweetie (for an omnivore ;) )

Oink!

[stuntcat]

20. how can people..

How can people who know what happens in factory farms complain about someone who so strongly wants it to end that they make a thread saying so? That many people really think torturing an animal through it's whole life then giving it this grotesque death that no one else sees is just fine, the way we should live?
Some of the comments above mine made me sick. I have much more respect for pig's souls than for people who feel that way about animals. I am not proud of my species.

[datasuspect]

21. many of us don't anthropomorphize animals

we just see them as food or apparrel

[BarenakedLady]

24. I hate that word

Of you, I'm fond. :D

[idgiehkt]

29. I don't either, it's unscientific

all animal species are distant cousins, anyone who has studied biology or anatomy knows this. We are all collections of cells undergoing similar processes (diffusion, filtration, osmosis) to stay alive. The belief that homo sapiens are a separate and distinct species (biologically) from the rest of the animal kingdom is a religious dominionist belief and it always surprises me to see non-religious people espousing it.

There is no excuse for this kind of cruelty and the industries rely on the religious dominionist belief system to excuse themselves. Acknowledging that animals have an physical as well as emotional responses to pain/torture, to cruel confinement, and the other types of mistreatment outlined in the OP is not anthropomorphization, unless one truly believes God made Adam from dirt and Eve from a rib. If we look at the hundreds of years of sciences showing the biological similarities among animal species then we have a moral obligation to eliminate this cruelty, regardless of whether we eat the pigs or not. I don't fall into the group that says that everyone must be vegetarian because I think that much needless cruelty could be eliminated if people didn't present the argument as either/or. I know there are tons of compassionate people who eat meat who would support humane slaughter methods and who know what is happening to animals in these factory farms is inhumane at best and hideously cruel at worse. There is no excuse for it, regardless of whether one enjoys bacon for breakfast or not. I believe in humane treatment of animals and I believe in the quickest, most painless death for them in the event that they are slaughtered for food. In my dream world, everyone would be a vegetarian, but in the meantime, eating meat doesn't excuse underwriting cruelty and environmental destruction to the extent that is happening because of these factory farms.

[BarenakedLady]

38. Good post!

:thumbsup:

[stuntcat]

42. factory farms

factory animal farms are the worst result of our "progress" .. oh and raping the planet. But these two issues are one to me, they both come from the same problems and will end in the same problems.

[Danger Mouse]

57. excellent post!

well said. :)

[nam78_two]

82. This is an excellent post

I have to applaud :applause:. I agree with pretty much everything you said there.
Especially this:

I don't either, it's unscientific
Posted by idgiehkt
all animal species are distant cousins, anyone who has studied biology or anatomy knows this. We are all collections of cells undergoing similar processes (diffusion, filtration, osmosis) to stay alive. The belief that homo sapiens are a separate and distinct species (biologically) from the rest of the animal kingdom is a religious dominionist belief and it always surprises me to see non-religious people espousing it.


It is wrong to assume that people with a scientific background support a more callous/cavalier attitude towards animals. It is actually in general quite the reverse. Many of the most passionate animal advocates and environmentalists I know are scientists. Reason magazine and Techcentralstation want you to believe that empathy and compassion towards animals is the domain of them softies with no interest in science (which would of course tell you to ignore all this because of teh foodchain!!!!series!!).

Disclaimer: I am not saying every scientist I know is necessarily a vegetarian or a PETA member. But, I can't think of a single one who would say factory farming is acceptable or that we can ignore animal welfare.

[ThomCat]

127. Very well said.

"You're anthropomorphizing" is almost always a back-handed way of insisting that animals have no personalities, can't sense pain, and have absolutely no value as living things.

It's a way for people to desensitize themselves to cruelty.

The same arguments have been used to justify abuses and slaughter of groups of people. "You're just projecting human qualities that they don't really have." It would be nice, when people claim that there are no personalities, emotions or pain there, that they have some way of proving it before they make absurd claims.

[HERVEPA]

151. What you said!

[stuntcat]

25. I ain't saying..

not that they have souls as big as ours (even though I have to wonder about some of us) but they do have consciousness and little memories and identities. I guess there's no discussing it with people who can't respect that in them.. to me it's all part of the mistake people make putting themselves above the Earth, 'god's image' and stuff.

What you've said has made me more ashamed, please leave it at that, my opinion of people is low enough already :(

[datasuspect]

27. it seems like your pathway to morality

is my pathway to flavor (vis a vis our views on animals that don't rank very highly in the food chain).

humans do worse things to each other.

[LaurenG]

32. Dude that doesn't make it OK though does it?

I'm not a meat eater but think that treating any creature inhumanely is wrong, including humans. :(

[Danger Mouse]

54. so you're saying you have no problem with grossly inhumane treatment?

[datasuspect]

60. we might have fundamentally different definitions of "inhumane"

in your construal, the way i answer your question without further clarification on your part might tend to make me look like a monster.

to the owner of a feed lot, i might seem like the average consumer.

i'd have to know what you mean by "inhumane" before i answer your question.

*disclaimer* i don't think "animals" incapable of rational thought, speech, and the ability to manipulate tools are "people." nor do i impute to them generally accepted "human" qualities just because they might be cute, cry out, or bleed.

[Danger Mouse]

66. my definition of 'inhumane'...

the conditions at factory farms. that about fits the bill.

[otherlander]

81. That's what we do, though.

We look at a species of animal that has to follow all of the natural laws to survive, and we anthropomorphize it until we fool ourselves into thinking that that species isn't animal at all. The word "animal" is only used as an insult. And that species, we tell ourselves, doesn't have to follow all those natural laws. Finite resources? Ecological niches? We've got no need for such nonsense! We're different! And we convince ourselves that this somehow makes it possible for the species to go on growing in population indefinitely, even though there are more members than can be fed, which means more and more starving in each generation, which means that the habitat has to keep expanding to produce more food, replacing thousands of other species with the relatively few species that are useful as food. But somehow this is still considered compatible with biodiversity. And then we've got these silly people talking about "getting back to nature"... as if they think that it was possible to leave in the first place.

[BarenakedLady]

23. I agree

Giving out information to others now automatically makes one a zealot and an asshole?

Even if I didn't agree with the OP pov, I wouldn't jump to those conclusions.

[cobalt1999]

36. But they didn't make a thread about Factory Farming...

They made a thread about not eating pigs. Big difference.

You can be against factory farming and still eat lots of bacon, sausage, and ham. Either they were disingenuous or on a conversion mission.

BTW, I don't believe in any souls, gods, religions, and I don't accept other people pushing their moral codes on me. Live your life the way you want and I'll live mine.

[datasuspect]

43. i agree with you

and that's enough for me with this absurd thread.

[stuntcat]

49. sorry to complicate things with the word souls

I do not ever mean "soul" in a religious sense. The conscious identity that I do believe people have is not in any way holy or even necessarily good.
I grew out of religion as a preteen.. so it puzzles me to no end how people who don't believe in anything will still believe humans are better than animals.

And I do still eat some meat, I just wish our farming of it was something like the sweet old farms in picture books and stuff, not animal concentration camps that slaughter thousands of animals every hour to sell to happy consumers who never see or even imagine what happens there.

And I'm sorry if by replying you think I'm pushing my moral code, I just don't want you to think I'm actually using religion to give my feelings any meaning.

[cobalt1999]

59. I'm not a fan of factory farms either.

The point I was making was the op was dishonestly combining factory farming with going vegan. You can be against factory farms without giving up meat. We eat non-factory farm meat and try to buy as locally as possible.

BTW, humans are not better than animals, that's impossible because we ARE animals. I have no more issues eating another animal than a bear does eating a salmon.

[datasuspect]

62. we aren't better than animals

we just kill more effectively and efficiently than they do.

[datasuspect]

61. as long as we have existed as bipedal organisms capable of manipulating tools

we have slaughtered animals.

there was never a halcyon time in the past where our food led some ideal existence prior to being bled, cut up, and processed for consumption.

granted, in our past (as humans) we relied on wild game to subsist, but when we developed the ability to organize our activities for barter and then ultimately for profit, animals have been cultivated to feed us, clothe us, make our soap, our brushes, our shoes, our book binding, etc.

i understand what you are saying, but industries and wealth are not built on considering the emotions of food and apparrel.

our economic system requires maximizing efficiencies to bring products to market in the quickest way possible.

i'm not even saying this good or bad. it just IS.

[idgiehkt]

89. agri-business is an evil led by right-wingers

who slowly drove the small farmer out of business with these methods of raising animals for slaughter. What you are saying might be true, but one of the things that makes me a progressive is that I oppose it.

[BlooInBloo]

41. Yah - i once ate a pig who was writing his memoirs. I felt awful.

[Arugula Latte]

132. Good post, stuntcat.

I agree. :applause:

[Amerigo Vespucci]

22. The inevitable Pulp Fiction ping:

Vincent: Want some bacon?
Jules: No man, I don't eat pork.
Vincent: Are you Jewish?
Jules: Nah, I ain't Jewish, I just don't dig on swine, that's all.
Vincent: Why not?
Jules: Pigs are filthy animals. I don't eat filthy animals.
Vincent: Bacon tastes gooood. Pork chops taste gooood.
Jules: Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know 'cause I wouldn't eat the filthy motherfucker. Pigs sleep and root in shit. That's a filthy animal. I ain't eat nothin' that ain't got enough sense enough to disregard its own faeces.
Vincent: How about a dog? Dogs eats its own feces.
Jules: I don't eat dog either.
Vincent: Yeah, but do you consider a dog to be a filthy animal?
Jules: I wouldn't go so far as to call a dog filthy but they're definitely dirty. But, a dog's got personality. Personality goes a long way.
Vincent: Ah, so by that rationale, if a pig had a better personality, he would cease to be a filthy animal. Is that true?
Jules: Well we'd have to be talkin' about one charmin' motherfuckin' pig. I mean he'd have to be ten times more charmin' than that Arnold on Green Acres, you know what I'm sayin'?

:evilgrin:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110912/quotes

[supernova]

28. Pig parts are also used on cardiac ops

If you need a valve replacement, you have two choices: a mechanical valve (with the added requirement of blood thinners for life) or a pig heart valve, since they are the natural material that most closely resembles our valves.

You can also get a human replacement valve, but as with all other donor organs, supply is limited.

And yes, I love bacon. I eat it and all other products sporadically though.

Odd factoid: In the "bad fats" category, lard is smack in the middle between olive oil and butter. Not as good as OO, but a lot better for you than butter.

[EstimatedProphet]

33. But butter tastes really good too

[dropkickpa]

34. And they are invaluable tools in biomedical research

From training surgeons to transplant research to diabetes, etc etc etc. Transplant - not just pig parts in humans, pig to pig because there are a lot of immunologic similarities between pigs and people and these projects work to try to 1)understand rejection better 2) how to improve outcomes through drug therapy 3) new surgical techniques such as partial liver transplants, which were pioneered in pigs, enabling live donation.

[idgiehkt]

39. well, they are sentient beings, not "tools"

at it's core this is exploitation. One species, a hominid derived from an ape, exploiting another species for it's own survival. Without venturing into the 'rightness' or 'wrongness' of the topic at hand, there is little else more convincing that humans are just another animal on the food chain than the fact that we would see another animal as a 'tool' with which to proliferate our own species. I feel so out of sorts in discussions like this because I feel that if anything what makes our species special is our potential to be benevolent stewards of this planet and of other animal and plant species. No other species that I know of shows a desire to preserve...of course no other species is as destructive across the board. Tool-making to the extreme, using the parts of other animals to save our own kind, it's as it's base a very animalistic, unevolved psychology that seems to point to the baseness of man rather than any lauded 'greatness'.

[supernova]

45. I really think we should get back to

the Native American ideal of having reverence for the animals that support our lives. Plains Indians worshipped the buffalo because it gave them everything they needed to survive in that environment: protein, clothing, living quarters, storage containers, and that's just the skins I don't know what all they did with the bones.

[northzax]

154. sure, they worshipped the bison

but they still killed it, ate it and wore its skins for clothing.

[dropkickpa]

47. They ARE tools.

no matter how you feel about it.

tool
n 1: an implement used in the practice of a vocation
2: the means whereby some act is accomplished;

We ARE just another animal in the food chain, but we happen to be at the top of it, and our behavior is not so far removed from that of animals. The natural world is a very harsh place, full of what we view as cruel and violent behavior, though we hesitate to call it that when it comes to animals, because for them it is "natural".

And don't forget, veterinary medicine has benefitted directly from human biomedical animal research. 20 years ago, how often did you hear about dogs being treated for cancer with chemotherapy, radiation, etc? How did we know that would even work in them? Much of the research was already there showing it would work due to biomedical research for human treatments already in place.

I love animals, but I do not value them more highly than I do people *in general* (of course, there are specific people who would never even come close to where my dog is in my heart).

I'm sorry if I sound snarky, but I never hear of anti-research people practicing what they preach when it's THEIR butt on the line (or their kids/loved ones/beloved pets). They are more than willing to benefit from the efforts of people like me while at the same denigrating and reviling me, denouncing what we (the scientific community) do as murderous and horrible. I find that hypocritical in the extreme.

[nam78_two]

76. I do wonder if we will be seeing viable alternative options for animal research at some point though

I agree that you have a point when it comes to medicine -I can voluntarily give up pretty much all other animal products, but if I were to get cancer or some other dreaded disease, I would certainly make use of modern medicine :-/.

However, I do see a growing body of biomedical research focusing on moving towards technologies (mini-human chips/working with stable cell lines) which could conceivably replace animal research. The idea appears to be that it will both eliminate the ethical concerns and be cost effective.
For example, I currently work in the areas of deafness/cancer research and I work almost entirely with stable human and mouse carcinoma/epithelial cell lines. Of course I am not saying it will all be different today or tomorrow, but still I do see options to animal research opening up. Technology has come so far. One of the people on my thesis committee worked on that sort of thing. The whole animal-on-a chip/ mini human idea.

This sort of thing interests me a lot :
http://www.hurelcorp.com/MIT%20TechRev.pdf

Again I don't say this will happen today or tomorrow, but I am certainly seeing a whole lot of possibilities arising. It is pretty interesting :). It has been receiving some attention too-I have seen articles in Nature, Science, Scientific American etc., where they are talking about it as a real possibility in the future.

[idgiehkt]

84. because something is used as a tool, does not make it a tool

people and other animals are misused all the time; I just watched a show on Court tv yesterday about a woman named Sharon Marshall who was kidnapped as a child by a pedophile. She made straight A's in high-school and won a full scholarship to study aerospace engineering at college. But her "father" (the kidnapper) would not let her go, instead he made her into a stripper and prostitute until he finally murdered her, as well as two other people. What was she here for, her own purpose, or what he made her into? This is all about perception, not about 'feelings' and animals have their own purposes quite exclusive of medical research on them. I'm not sure how veterinary medicine figures into this debate, nor am I certain what the assurance that not 'valuing (non-human) animal species than humans' has to do with it. No one on this thread has suggested that animals be valued higher than humans. I wasn't aware of any studies that cover the subject of what people who advocate humane treatment of non-human animals do in situations like this. What I do know is that an awful lot, if not most, of the "research" being done using non-human animals is frivolous crap like cosmetics testing. It is also repeated over and over when companies change their formulations, which is constant since "new" is one of the main commercial selling words. Again I'm talking in shades of gray here, not exactly popular on this site, but if all the non-'necessary' testing/experimentation on animals, a huge amount of which is cruel and inhumane, that would be a step in the right direction. Right now the situation as it stands is abominable. I also don't understand this separation, the reference to the 'natural world':
"The natural world is a very harsh place, full of what we view as cruel and violent behavior, though we hesitate to call it that when it comes to animals, because for them it is "natural".
We are part of that natural world, boasting of our place at the 'top of the food chain' when it's convenient and dragging out the old excuse that 'we are just animals' to excuse our crappy ethics the rest of the time. No animal I've ever seen tortures other animals as thorougly, as widely, for as prolonged periods of time as humans do, yet we dare to brag about how 'intelligent' our species is. We do experiments on non-human animals to gauge pain response and then claim dogs and cats 'don't have feelings'. We are just typical monkeys...if you go to the zoo and watch the monkes and the apes, you can really begin to see why humans are such jerks.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dropkickpa]

100. What on earth does a girl

subjected to the whims of a batshit-crazy pedophile have to do with bacon? You just went off the deep end with this one, sorry.

[HERVEPA]

152. Having a bad heart valve

I have thought about this. It was discovered 28 years ago and is not any worse now, so I hope the time to have it replaced never comes.

But I would go with the mechanical one. Couldn't live with the thought of taking that from another living creature.

[supernova]

161. I have two

bad valves, and like you I hope the situation never comes up.

The problem with this op is that the fix is never permanent. At some point, you have to replace the replacement.

I'm not really sure what I would choose. Ideally, I think I wouldn't mind a silicone valve. I don't know why they haven't made this or what the issue is with 100% silocone. They do make silicone-coated mechanical valves, but not fully silicone ones, like bakeware. I'm not certain how widespread the metal/silcone combo is yet.

To get back to the thread topic, pig valves don't require additional meds and tend to last longer than mechanical valves.

[I Have A Dream]

40. Sorry that you're getting such abuse, ElsewheresDaughter.

Thank you for posting this. :hug:

[flvegan]

44. It's sadly typical around here.

Happens every single time a topic like this comes up.

[I Have A Dream]

46. Yes, I've noticed.

:(

[Danger Mouse]

52. i think for once...

we agree on something.

[idgiehkt]

85. I think the centrists in this place outnumber the progressives

by a huge margin. Maybe 2 to 1 or 3 to 1. I know fundies that are more understanding about humane farming methods and humane slaughter than some of the "liberals" here. Even if one still eats pork, to deny that these methods of raising animals for food are horribly inhumane and incredibly destructive to the environment is just ludicrous.

[dropkickpa]

101. Nice generalization

THIS is a really good example of why people here get so polarized, because, if we don't agree that YOU are 100% right, we couldn't possibly be progressives.

I saw no one here defending or denying factory farming practices (in fact, the OP was not specifically about factory farming practices), but because we don't jump up and rend our clothing in anguish for the animals, we aren't progessive, right? Because you are the authority on what a "real" progressive is.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

48. i didn't mean to offend anyone with this post....

i am sorry if you were offended.

may i recommend a read?

Ishmael by Daniel Quinn

[Danger Mouse]

51. don't be sorry.

i think it was a great post. :hi:

[lligrd]

86. It's A Good Post And True

Sometimes people just don't want to accept the truth. I went to PETA's website once (and only once) and watched a horrifying video showing the crates and the pigs being slaughtered. Can't get those pictures out of my mind.

I don't have much hope that people will ever give a hoot (or should that be an oink) about pigs when so many don't even seem to care about the innocent people being slaughtered and starving to death in the world.

[idgiehkt]

87. at least they will live through it

the pigs won't.

I live in NC and I remember what happened with hurricane floyd because of the factory farms. It was a nightmare. :(

[nam78_two]

88. I thought it was a great post

:toast:

[cobalt1999]

99. Would you be offended if someone posted...

A Top Ten Reasons women should wear burkas or a Top Ten Reasons your religionious beliefs are evil?

Think next time before you go off telling people how to live their lives.

[BarenakedLady]

103. Not even close

A better example would be Top Ten Reasons to ride a bike or Top Ten Reasons to use solar panels.

No one is telling you how to live your life. I don't understand where all the hostility is coming from.

[cobalt1999]

107. Wrong.

The OP was using their view of animals and their moral code in order to attempt to convert people to their way of thinking. Which is the same thing that religious folks do when they attempt to "spread the good word" or "educate" us infidels. That is why I used religious examples.

Anyone tries to impose their personal moral codes on me, I'll call them on it and fight it to the end.

[BarenakedLady]

113. How is listing a bunch of facts

Even putting aside any of the "emotional" reasonings, imposing a moral code on you?

*edited to say nevermind...I read the OP with my filter on. I'd rather leave it.*

I can agree to disagree on the purpose of the OP.

[cobalt1999]

115. That's just spin...

If you can see nothing wrong with the post about "facts" about eating pigs, then how about a fundie coming here and posting a bunch of facts about sex outside of marriage (chosen because it's another issue based on personal morals).

They could post facts like the current STD rate, deaths from AIDS, abortion rates, along with their emotional reasonings and moral objections. According to your logic, they aren't pushing their moral code, they are just posting "facts". We both know the reason either post would have been done was to convert others to their way of thinking.

You just don't want to see it because you are in agreement with the original poster, however, if someone used the exact SAME logic and approach on another topic you disagree with, you'd probably call them on their bullshit.

Furthermore, the "facts" were more on factory farming and that is not the same as giving up meat. So, not only was the person trying to convert, their "facts" don't support their conclusion.

Like I said, anyone tries to convert me based on their personal moral agenda, I'll call them on it and fight it to the end.

[BarenakedLady]

119. And like I said

I re-read it with that exact filter.

I'm really trying to understand how it is offensive, honestly. To a fault, I am the type of person to try to put myself in opposing shoes. I see what you are saying, but I still don't find the offense. Even if I disagreed with the OP, I wouldn't be offended (using your examples). I would disagree but wouldn't feel pushed to convert.

Perhaps if someone was knocking on my door to "give me the good news", I'd be annoyed. But not someone sharing their POV on the internets. I can read it or not.

Is there a way this OP could have been worded differently to convey their thoughts on this without being offensive?

[cobalt1999]

128. "...worded differently to convey their thoughts on this without being offensive?"

I'm not sure it's possible to word a post that conveys a personal moral objection to other peoples behaviors without offending them.

To start with, I wouldn't title it something like...
"Stop doing this",
"10 Ten reasons to stop doing this", or
"You're going to hell, if you don't stop doing this"

That isn't going to change anyone's mind. Also, if the original poster wanted to honestly convey information, they wouldn't use a list that has little to do with their conclusion, nor would they use emotional appeals that are again based on their own personal moral code.

We all see the world through our own set of values and morals. If everyone would leave it at that, the world would be a better place. However, some people, conclude their personal viewpoint & morals are "better" than others and if you don't agree you just need more "education". To me that is offensive behavior, but I'm a liberal atheist living down here in the bible belt so I get that attitude a lot and maybe I'm just overly sensitive to it.

[unpossibles]

131. sadly, I do understand where it comes from

I've been a vegetarian since 1990, and I have gotten so much crap from people. I don't make it a point to even discuss why I am a vegetarian because I get accused of 'preaching' yet people daily make it a point to tell me why I should eat meat, or act like I am trying to be better than they are, even though I don't even bring it up unless asked of unless it's relevant. Even then - such as in a restaurant - I will ask for a dish "without the chicken" or whatever if there are not vegetarian options.

So back to your question, why do people feel the need to be crappy toward someone who is simply trying to share information? Because on some level they do feel bad about it. Not true across the board, but this has to be it. It's just like when a heavy drinker starts giving their non-drinking friends crap - it's because they know that deep down they're not necessarily doing the right thing.

I am fine with the idea that we're omnivores. We are. Granted, we are much closer physiologically to animals which don't eat any or much meat than we are to carnivores, but I'll get to hear thousands of more times about why we have sharp canines (which are somehow incapable of bringing down wild game). But we are addicted to meat as a culture, and some people just don't want to consider that. The average American (and now other nationalities as well) eats far more than the recommended amount, but whatever.

Enjoy your dead animal, everybody. You know, babies are not very smart and made of tasty meat too, but that doesn't mean I want to eat one.

[cobalt1999]

137. I hear the same shit from the born again Christians around here.

Whenever I get annoyed at them for trying to convert me they use the same bullshit line "it's because they know that deep down they're not necessarily doing the right thing", or "you know deep down you are rebelling from god and you feel bad about it".

*sigh*

I wish all these conversion freaks could actually have brains enough to realize, NO ONE is feeling guilty or sinful or whatever because we don't subscribe to your world view.

If you can't, at least be original.

[unpossibles]

141. ok, then

why do I get it from people who I say nothing to about it? As soon as someone notices I order a veggie dish - even one fairly under the radar - they ALWAYS chime in with some smartassed bullshit. Frankly, 20+ years on, it gets old. I never give anyone crap about anything, yet I am fair game because I chose to do something for my own reasons? And for the record, I gave up meat originally because I processed it daily in a restaurant which made everything from scratch and it started to gross me out and make me feel ill. Yes, I love animals, but used to be a heavy meat eater, and did not ever thing twice about any animal rights issues or anything else. It just grossed me out to the point I could barely smell the stuff for about a year because I had to make homemade sausages, clean chicken parts and make chicken stock, etc.

And as someone who has been given shit by friends because I did not feel like drinking with them, it sure came across the same way. Not saying it's true for everyone, but you know what I mean.

Don't try to make it sound like I am a religious nut, because if I were I would not be so tolerant of assholes telling me what to eat. People get all upset about vegetarians being self-righteous, and frankly some are, but I would be a millionaire if I had a penny for every rude comment a meat eater has made to me, and to which I have mostly not bothered to respond.

But whatever. You can continue to cast me as the one giving others crap. Whatever. I don't f'ing care, honestly.

[cobalt1999]

142. "why do I get it from people who I say nothing to about it? "

Why? Because most people are basically interfering assholes.

The annoyance you feel towards them isn't because you feel "guilty" or "know you are doing something wrong". You're annoyed at people trying to inflict their standards onto you. Of all folks, you should be able to relate to how irritating that is. I can relate to your experiences and I don't blame you for being pissed off.

How about this? You don't try to influence my diet, I won't try to influence your diet, you don't make assumptions on how I feel, I won't make assumptions on your intentions.

Sorry you have to deal with that so often and, believe me, if we ever went out to eat together, I wouldn't even think about commenting on your personal choices.

[unpossibles]

155. thank you

I do appreciate it. And yes, I know I am way over-generalizing, but that's how it comes across sometimes from a lot of people. Sadly, it's often the same people too. I think that what makes it extra frustrating is - as you point out - I honestly do make it a point to not lecture anyone about beliefs, vices, diet, lifestyle, etc. as I know we each have our own lives to live, and unless someone looks like they are in immediate danger of an immanent crash (which has happened exactly once with someone I knew who was a junkie and I did say something to them out of genuine concern), I stay out of all of it.

:)

[cobalt1999]

160. No problem and I know I'm being overly sensitive too.

A lifetime of having folks trying their best to convert me or judge me based on their moral standards (religion, lifestyle, personal choices, etc) has made me overly sensitive to people telling me what I should do.

Later! :hi:

[Shell Beau]

153. That last comment is just plain silly.

[unpossibles]

156. so are most of the other comments in this thread

I think it's kind of rude and insensitive for some to respond to the OP with "but pigs are made out of tasty meat!" or other nonsense.

[Shell Beau]

157. Well when you post a topic like this, that is what you are going to get.

People don't like to be looked down on. And whether or not the OP meant that, that is how some will take it.

[unpossibles]

158. I don't recall the OP saying that anyone who eats pork is evil

it just gave reasons not to. Yes, that could be seen as an "attack" I suppose, but I look at it this way: if someone posted a "Top 10 Reasons to eat pork" I'd probably either not read it, or at least not respond to it if I disagreed. Or maybe not. Maybe you're right, and I too would have gotten defensive for no reason. Hard to say.

[Danger Mouse]

50. excellent thread. one of the things that got me back to being vegetarian..

and hopefully, staying that way.
factory farms are just plain evil. i have no problem with people eating local farm raised pork that has been decently treated and humanely slaughtered, however, factory farms are brutal and sickening.
the fact that some duer's seem to have no problem with them is also sickening.

[stuntcat]

55. *not for your eyes*

sickening to me too. I'm disappointed by comments I've seen here every time someone hints at what happens on the factory farms. I have a feeling if I posted anything about the millions slaughtered per day or the grain and energy spent on it, or the number of people who starve to death so some of us can live the way we do then I'd be banished from the great DU.

[Danger Mouse]

56. i feel so much better about myself after having given up meat, especially pork products...

the best place to hit these scum is in their wallets, it's all they care about or understand.
it's disturbing stuff, and it's tough to come to grips with it, but just pretending it's not there won't make it go away.
if this is a progressive site, then why is this not a progressive cause?
factory farms are at the very least, horrible for the environment and at the worst, disgustingly inhumane and unsafe for humans let alone the poor pigs.

[nam78_two]

71. Nice post

:)

[Danger Mouse]

72. thanks

=)

[Matariki]

Factory farms are evil.

you said it. Downright sickening.

I'm not a vegetarian, but I don't eat meat from those places.

[mitchum]

58. Pork really is the only meat that I feel guilty about eating

[Zomby Woof]

68. I don't go around telling people what to eat

How about you vegans returning the favor once in a while?

[yewberry]

77. How about restricting your remarks to the poster you're addressing

instead of bringing a bunch of people who had nothing to do with the post into it?

[flvegan]

78. *points and laughs*

Great post, Chachi.

[no name no slogan]

69. Obviously, this person has never heard of the FOOD CHAIN

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

70. If only it weren't so delicious.

As my American Studies professor put it, if I could, I would go to waffle house everyday and just get bacon with a side of bacon.

[sanguinivorous]

74. While I don't care for the whole factory farming end of the business...

...there's no way in fucking hell that I'm giving up pork or any other kind of meat.

[Matariki]

79. self delete

I appear to be lost.....

[GoneOffShore]

80. The Omnivore's Dilemma

Bacon good, factory farming bad.

I keep going back to Michael Pollan: "Eat Food, Not too Much, plants mostly."

It's really pretty simple.

You don't want to eat anything that your great-great-grandmother wouldn't recognize as food.

So, if it's a "food product" you probably don't want to eat it. Hence, "Veggie Ham Slices" or Cheez Whiz or PopTarts or Processed Cheese Food or anything with ingredients whose names don't recognize (We're talking chemicals here, not actual vegetables or the like).

[Tian Zhuangzhuang]

83. All my great grandparents are from the old country

There are a lot of things they recognize as food I would never eat. :)

[GoddessOfGuinness]

90. If we eat all the pigs, who will be left to run our government?

Oh...you weren't talking about the human pigs, were you?

[lligrd]

94. Human Pigs, Aren't Those The Human-Animal Hybrids

Bush warned us about? Maybe he had a point. But why is he hiring them?

[GoddessOfGuinness]

112. He's one of them.

[sam sarrha]

91. HORMONES fed to pigs.. is that why childrem are maturing sooo early, and 1 in 3 get cancer

[GirlinContempt]

108. 1 in 3 chidren get cancer?

??

[jgraz]

95. Two words: Niman Ranch

...and other wholesome, humane family farmers.

I have no problem killing an animal for food. I have a problem with how we raise animals for food. It sounds strange, but if vegan activists would help promote small-market, humane, organic meat producers, it would be a huge step toward the very admirable results that most vegetarians hope to acheive.

[dropkickpa]

102. Yes

Support your local farmer, they are finding a niche market right now, and most are barely breaking even, but they are doing it because they belive in what they are doing. It's good for the environment, it's good for your neighbors, and it's good for the local economy.

[supernova]

106. Yes, exactly

I buy locally produced everything when I can, including meats, poultry, and dairy.

[nam78_two]

145. I agree with you

Factory farming is what I would like to see most of my fellow animal activists focus their energies on. It is one of the most evil systems out there imo and with more public awareness, it is one we could hope to lick. Those things should be abolished.

[FunkyLeprechaun]

97. You really should see the exhibition I worked on

Dealing with reuse of everyday objects. One of the things that people did in wartime years was to keep a farm and they slaughtered their own pigs and used every part of the pig (including the hooves), so that nothing went to waste. The quote was "you can take everything except the squeal".


The very same exhibition had guides on how to grow your own veg garden and such to save energy.

Please... I'm not trying to flame but I have no problem with people choosing to be vegetarian but the push of their vegetarianism on me reeks like religion fanaticism. In fact, I'm semi-vegetarian (eating veg most of the day and one meal having a bit of meat in it) due to my health issues (I cannot eat much meat and I LOVE meat).

[jpgray]

105. Prosciutto di parma is a proud cultural tradition that I always enjoy participating in

No vegan gastronomer will ever perfect a substitute. Cheers to those who do the least harm, but prosciutto is an amazing food experience in almost all situations.

[Deep13]

109. 11. Pork tastes like people.

This is according to Christopher Hitchen's book, God Is Not Great. He specualtes that the reason Judaism and later Islam developed a prohibition on eating pork is because earlier cultures who practiced human sacrifice and cannibalism noted the similarity between the two meats. He said that big city fire fighters hate the smell of bacon and that some south Pacific cannibal culture (I forgot which, but probably New Guinea) refers to human meat as "long pig."

[msanthrope]

134. Two points to follow up on your post---

1) I worked in a morgue....I can attest to the fact that a burning/burnt human body can smell very much like pork barbeque...


2) Ham/pork is often used in ballistics/forensic testing because it is very like human skin/tissue/flesh.

[Lyric]

110. I hate threads like this, because

it puts me (and other people) at "moral odds" with people we usually highly admire.

I can listen to arguments based on practical foundations, like the environmental impact of eating a lot of meat. However, those arguments do not lend evidence to the notion that eating meat is morally wrong. They lend evidence only to the notion that eating meat to the extent that we do is unsustainable. If some unforeseen disaster wiped out half the world's human population tomorrow, and we were all forced to become small farmers again in order to survive, the environmental impact of eating meat would be practically gone. We would go back to having a handful of cows, chickens, and pigs, and occasionally fishing, and the Earth would be perfectly fine. The problem is not that we eat meat. The problem is that there are too damned many of us here eating meat, and it's hurting the planet. It's a problem of scale and sustainability, not morality.

I do not believe in objective standards of morality. If something offends your sense of right and wrong, then by all means don't do it. But do not take it upon yourself to try and "convert" me to your ideas of morality, because I think morality in general is a load of social-control bullshit. The only rule in my life that I adhere to (although imperfectly, like all other humans) is "try not to hurt other people". Beyond that--the pleasures of life are what make it worth living. I resent the hell out of the endless "moral rules" that try to turn every pleasurable thing into a taboo and/or a guilt trip, and I suspect that a lot of other people share that resentment.

That doesn't mean I enjoy inflicting pain on animals. Of course I don't. Only sicko insane people do. But it does mean that until organic, humane animal products are affordable to people like me, my choice is restricted to (1) Doing without one of the few things I can afford that gives me pleasure, or (2) Eating what's available and dealing with my own conscience on my own terms. My life stinks enough as it is. I refuse to give up yet another thing that I very much enjoy. Maybe that isn't a good enough reason for someone else, but it's good enough for me. I only have a short amount of time on this planet, and I don't believe in some eternal reward (or punishment) in the afterlife, so I'm going to enjoy what I can now. Yes, it's selfish. No, I am not going to waste my life wallowing in guilt over it.

It's not easy to post something like this here, because it's like inviting people to verbally crucify you over it, but I'm going to do it anyway.

[cobalt1999]

111. Good Post.

You stated things much more eloquently than I ever could and I share your opinion.

[BarenakedLady]

114. I wouldn't verbally crucify you

I understand what you are saying. We do have to chose what is important enough to us. What we are each comfortable with.

[Heidi]

129. Thank you, ocktoberain. That's a sound and reasoned perspective.

:thumbsup:

[DS1]

116. as soon as specific brand names are mentioned as an alternative

I cast my stink-eye upon these types of posts

[IndianaJones]

117. by Mennen. nt.

[Shell Beau]

118. There is a vegetarian forum you know!

Just sayin'!

These type of posts usually piss people off.

[supernova]

122. About time we had a

good veggie vs meat eaters flamefest.

Tho' so far, so good. ;-)

[Shell Beau]

123. It has been a while I suppose!

:)

[BlooInBloo]

133. Food eaters mostly ignore the sickly withered frayed hair vegetarians.

[BarenakedLady]

136. LoL.

:rofl:

[Shell Beau]

146. Aren't we all food eaters?

:shrug:

[BlooInBloo]

148. Nope. There's food eaters, and then there's vegetarians.

[Shell Beau]

149. Surely you are being facetious.

[BlooInBloo]

150. No I'm not. And don't call me Shirley.

[unpossibles]

159. you obviously don't know the right vegetarians... lol

I have a friend who is vegetarian - was vegan for years in fact - and can bench 390#. It's not me, but I have been a healthy and active vegetarian for 17 years with no ill effects. In fact, I am healthier and less run-down than some of my meat-eater friends. I'd say it has more to do with activity, other life-style issues, and general nutrition than meat consumption.

Or you can continue to hold yet another false stereotype. Your call.

[stuntcat]

162. lol thankks

We have a new Sunflower vegetarian restaurant here and my husband's dad who's always had to have fat steaks every other day (or he thought he'd collapse and die or whatever) is eating there all the time now.

[nam78_two]

143. There are no rules against posting factory farming/animal welfare related matter in other forums

(well at least not in forums like the Lounge and GD).

These type of posts usually piss people off.
I would respectfully submit, that for pretty much any view-point discussed on here there exists some sub-group that vehemently disagrees with it. If that were the criterion for refraining from posting topics, I suspect message boards would disappear altogether ;).
I do agree that this is a particularly flameable topic. However at least imo the OP did a good job of keeping it from being flame-baity and that is reflected in the responses. Almost all of the disagreement even has been largely respectful.

Only one deleted message thus far -that has to be some sort of record for this particular topic ;).

[Shell Beau]

147. I was just saying that because this type of topic does piss people off.

It does get some good discussion going but usually turns to crap soon.

[HughBeaumont]

120. It's regrettable. I like pigs. But I also love ribs too much.

I was a Vegan for four months, vegetarian for two years. Couldn't do it either time. I felt especially shitty during the vegan days. John Robbins' book Diet for a New America got me on that kick about 11 years ago. But since I hate beans, there really wasn't a whole lot to eat beyond nuts, fruit, vegetables (and their juice), the Morningstar/Boca burgers (which weren't as abundant in stores as they are now) and grain. I made a few things, but nothing that I'd call a substantial meal. I more or less ate in snacks.

Yes I lost weight, but at the same time I was tired, starving all the time, had zero energy and motivation and blacked out a lot. It wasn't uncommon for me to sleep for 10-12 hours during that period. My body reacted very negatively to the experience. It would probably be better if I had known how to cook bean-less veggie dishes. After four months, I couldn't take it anymore. I gorged on 12 plates of food at Pondo, much of it wings.

I was a vegetarian for two years, couldn't really do that with consistency either. My body didn't repel the cuisine as much as when I was a vegan, but it didn't make me happy either. I simply couldn't contain my craving for BBQ ribs and chicken and felt like I was kidding myself to pretend not to want to eat a full slab of baby backs. I barbecue ribs for a hobby and you best believe I consume my work. I won't eat anything for 24 hours before a smoking, which is how I manage to not blow up like a balloon because of this.

Right now, I keep everything in moderation and eat nothing but fruit and water before lunch. Most times I eat burgers, they're usually vegan. I only eat one huge meal a day, be it lunch or dinner, and some form of animal product, sorry to say, is on the menu.

I'm meant to be omnivorous, and that's just the way it be.

[supernova]

125. I'm like you, Hugh

Hey, it rhymes. :D

I truly believe that different people are physiologically built for different diets. I too feel better when I eat meat. I have days when I only eat veggie for various reasons. And when I do, I do take care to eat complete proteins, so that's not the issue. But I invariably feel washed out, lethargic, and just not as thriving as I do when I eat meat.

[HughBeaumont]

130. All I got to say is this:

That's why.

[cobalt1999]

138. That's just mean!

I'm working from my desk during lunch that'll probably come from the vending machine and you go and post that! I'll go back to chewing on my pencil now.

[HughBeaumont]

139. How do you think I feel?

It's making me hungry just looking at it. I want to do at least one more before it gets to Kelvin here, but I don't know if that's going to happen! Hopefully it'll stay warm another couple of weeks.

[supernova]

144. Must. Not. Make. BBQ run.

*sigh*

[tjwmason]

121. Slight correction - 1 Reason not to eat pigs.

Reason number 1 referenced only the quantity consumed.

Reasons number 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 referenced a particular set of farming methods - these considerations do no exist as a function of eating pigs, but rather of current factory farming and abbatoir procedures. Were I to raise pigs in my back-garden and to slaughter them there too (for example) - these issues wouldn't come into play.

Reason number 10 wasn't actually a reason to do or not to do anything, rather it was a suggestion of how to avoid eating pigs - if I ever were to decide to go vegetarian I wouldn't eat these faux meat foods anymore than I eat other faux foods.

Reason number 3 does actually present an argument against eating pigs - that of their intelligence. I fear it is also a argument which I personally find unconvincing.

No flames from me, I have the highest respect for vegetarians and my diet is frequently vegetarian (both by principle and by accident) - but posting a list like this in here is bound to produce a strongly negative response.

[supernova]

124. Mason, how dare you be so sensible!

:P :D

[rockymountaindem]

135. No I'm not Jewish

I just don't dig on swine, that's all.