BARRY BONDS, An American Hero....

[madinmaryland]

Also the Best HomeRun Hitter Evah!!1!!



:hide:

[Deja Q]

1. He does steroids. He's a cheater. And "Giants"? Hah, not after you use steroids...

:hide:

[madinmaryland]

2. Kind of like this...

[rucky]

51. as the OP said. American Hero.

which doesn't necessarily make someone a role model nowadays.

[taterguy]

3. Gets paid millions to do something most people do for fun

Damn right he's heroic

[Richardo]

4. You have a pretty low threshold for the term 'hero'

A multimillionaire athlete and soon-to-be indicted perjuror on steroids? Not in my book.

[deadparrot]

5. As a huge sports fan...

there are very few athletes I would consider heroic.

[Indy_Dem_Defender]

7. In baseball at least

off the top of my head
Jackie Robinson
Ted Williams

[deadparrot]

10. Robinson, certainly.

Don't know about Williams.

He was a tremendous baseball player, one of the best who ever played. However, athletic talent alone isn't sufficient grounds for heroism in my book.

[taterguy]

13. Williams interrupted his career for military service

We can debate about whether or not that's heroic but it was a major sacrifice

[deadparrot]

18. Again, that was completely urelated to his baseball career.

If the OP was trying to make the point that Bonds is a hero simply because he hits lots of home runs, I have to emphatically disagree. My respect for someone doesn't stem from their identity as an athlete, but in the way they treat other human beings.

Also, lots of baseball players (not to mention lots of 'ordinary' folks) gave up their careers to fight wars. Like you said, we can debate heroism, but in terms of making sacrifice, Williams certainly wasn't the only one doing so.

[madinmaryland]

50. Don't worry, I am not implying the Bonds is an American Hero.

As you pointed out, Bonds has done NOTHING heroic, other than hit a bunch of home runs. I just happened to see the picture and thought it might draw a lot of chatter!

[Oeditpus Rex]

16. Let the record show

that without Branch Rickey taking a huge risk, Robinson never would've had the chance for heroics. Rickey was most certainly a hero.

Also noteworthy in this is Pee Wee Reese, the Dodgers shortstop then and a Southerner who befriended Robinson and often stood between him and some other Dodgers — not to mention opposing players — who didn't want to play with a black man.

[deadparrot]

19. I don't disagree.

But my respect for those men doesn't stem from their identity as baseball players or managers. It stems from their emphasis of humanity over skin color amidst much resistance. The few athletes I would consider heroes are mainly clustered in the years around the integration of MLB.

Just because McGwire, Bonds, et al., shot up and hit a crapload of homers doesn't make them worthy of the title of hero, though, was all I meant to say. At least, not in my book. :shrug:

[Oeditpus Rex]

21. The definition of 'hero' has been diluted

That's really what's being discussed here.

[Joe Fields]

74. Add Clemente to the list of true heroes.

[Poiuyt]

14. Me either

Except for Brett Favre

[madinmaryland]

6. OMG!!11!! This has been recommended twice!

:wtf:

[sniffa]

11. now E times!!1!!1!1!!

[jgraz]

8. Boy do you got that right

So much more than this guy


Or this guy


Or him


Or these losers




We should all be thankful to have such a heroic American to look up to.

[taught_me_patience]

9. Maybe not a hero

but the sweetest left handed swing ever. Steroids and HGH do not give you plate discipline.

[Oeditpus Rex]

12. I think fans of Joe Jackson, Ted Williams et al

might argue the "sweetest left handed swing" bit.

[BrotherBuzz]

24. Hey, hey, hey Stretch had a sweet left-handed swing, too.

I'm just saying :shrug:

[Oeditpus Rex]

25. 44?

Looked like he was swingin' a 7-iron.

[MiserableFailure]

29. Uh, how about Babe Ruth? He was left handed?

And Lou Gehrig as well? Babe Ruth is still better than Barry Bonds.

[Oeditpus Rex]

32. We're talking about swings

Ruth's wasn't exactly a model.

[MiserableFailure]

33. Well if we're talking sweetest swing ever by a left hander

I'd probably say Garret Anderson, haha.

[Joe Fields]

75. George Brett had one of the sweetest left handed swings I've ever seen.

Smooth as silk.

[IndianaJones]

43. David Justice had a sweet swing. Beautiful. nt

[MiserableFailure]

65. yeah and he beat his wife

since we're going to attack character of players now, fair game

[MiserableFailure]

30. I'll elaborate on Ruth in case you don't get it.

Babe Ruth- lifetime batting average .342, Barry Bonds .298

Babe Ruth- lifetime on base percentage .474, Barry Bonds .444

Babe Ruth- lifetime slugging percentage .690, Barry Bonds .608. HUGE GAP here.

Now even if you adjust for ERA and compare their stats to the league averages over their careers and adjust for park factor(the parks they played their home games in), Babe Ruth has an adjusted OPS(on base percentage plus slugging) of 207. Ted Williams is second at 190 and Barry Bonds is third at 182. That means that Ruth was 107% better than the league average position player adjusted for what I said above over his career. Ted Williams was 90% better and Bonds was 82% better. Throw in the steroid allegations and the fact that Ted was also a left handed batter(just like Ruth and Barry), and I don't know how you can claim with a straight face that Barry has the sweetest left handed swing ever.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/OPSplus_career.shtml

Giants fan?

[taught_me_patience]

59. Black people were not allowed to play.

When I talk sweetest swing... i meant asthetically. For 3 years, Barry was the most feared hitter ever witnessed in baseball. Evertime he swung the bat, I though he would hit a home run. I will never see anything like that again in my lifetime.

Yes... lifetime Giants fan!

[MiserableFailure]

63. So blacks weren't allowed to play

And that means that Barry was better than Ruth? Hardly. All it means is that maybe Ruth wouldn't have been the best ever had blacks been allowed to play. It has nothing to do with Barry because Barry was allowed to play and had to resort to steroids and still couldn't match the performance of the Babe.

[Initech]

62. Ruth was also a drunken, alcoholic womanizer.

And a major asshole to boot. But at least no "performance enhancers" were involved!

[MiserableFailure]

64. Has nothing to do with stats

Ty Cobb still was the best hitter for average in the history of the game even though he was a racist prick. Babe Ruth being an alcoholic womanizer has nothing to do with his stats. Steroids can obviously boost stats. Terrible argument from you. i expect better.

call ruth names all you want but he was a better PLAYER than bonds.


but if you wanna get snarky, here we go. maybe ruth would have been even a tiny bit better if he didn't use performance detractors like alcohol so much.

[Initech]

72. I'm with Lewis Black on this one

He said we should forget the performance enhancing drugs and bring back the performance hindering ones.

As far as Ruth being a drunken asshole, that is true. But that doesn't detract from him being a great ball player. If we don't let Bonds into the HOF, then McGwire, Canseco, and everyone else that used those drugs shouldn't be allowed in either.

[MiserableFailure]

78. I agree with barring all those players, for what it's worth

But Canseco wasn't getting in anyway

Sosa and McGwire have a shot

[Oeditpus Rex]

73. Ruth drank copious amounts of beer

But there's no evidence to support alcoholism. Nor was he any more a womanizer than most other ballplayers.

And I'd really like to see you qualify "major asshole."

OTOH, Bonds is an unapproachable control freak who intimidates teammates and once told his mistress, "You need to disappear."

[IndianaJones]

46. Griffey, Jr. nt.

[Wetzelbill]

57. at his best. Easily. nt

[Blue-Jay]

80. If Little-Griff could stay off the DL, he'd be great.

Unfortunately, he tends to stub his toe while stepping out of his car, and then needs to have three months to recover.

He has the best natural swing I've ever seen when he's healthy, but I can count on one hand the number of times he's been "healthy" in the past 6-7 years. What a shame.

[Rabrrrrrr]

15. If by American you mean "By any means possible, damn the ethics", then, yes.

he is a true American hero.

[opiate69]

17. Actually, here's the greatest home run hitter ever..

*How I hate ethnocentrism...*

[bertha katzenengel]

34. OH! OH! OH!

The Champ.

[KitchenWitch]

55. *snerk*

[Joe Fields]

20. No you DIDN'T just say that!!!!!

:crazy:

[Crabby Appleton]

22. "Nothing wrong with cheating as long as you win" king george II

[Elidor]

23. .

[bertha katzenengel]

26. Locking. Flame bait.

Tsk tsk. ;)

[Danger Mouse]

27. Wow. Love the image.

:puke:
I better not say anything against Bonds, though, or he might burst through my wall and tear my head off.

[MiserableFailure]

28. American hero?

Look, talk about what a great ballplayer he is, but calling Barry Bonds an American hero is a real joke. He's done nothing heroic. And he's not the best home run hitter ever. He may end up with the most home runs, but there's two things that obviously need to be mentioned. one of course is the infamous steroid allegations, and the other is that Barry is third all time in at bats per home run. Mark McGwire hit a home run in every 10.61 at bats, Babe Ruth in every 11.76 at bats, and Barry Bonds is third all time with a home run in every 12.93 at bats. Now McGwire was a steroid abuser and Barry most likely was as well. That leaves Ruth at the top. Interestingly enough, the home run leader, Hank Aaron, who never used steroids, is all the way down at #36 all time. He homered once every 16.38 at bats. In other words, Babe Ruth homered 50% more of the time. Hank Aaron just had a ridiculously long career and was very consistent.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/ABpHR_career.shtml

[madinmaryland]

52. Sorry, but I forgot to include this in the post....

:sarcasm:

[mentalsolstice]

31. Barry Bonds, biggest POS! This was a hit 'n run thread! nt

[Thirtieschild]

35. Well, yeah, if steroids make you a hero....

My greatest all-time favorite is Hank Aaron. He could do it all, hit, field so gracefully I felt I was watching a ballet dancer.

The night he hit the big one, I got my son up to see it. Knew it was coming because Aaron's number was 44, and the opposing pitcher (Dodger?) was 44. And he did it without steroids. You could tell he wasn't on steroids - his head hadn't reached gigantic proportions.

Aaron would have gotten far more attention if he's played for a team in a "major" city. The Braves weren't on cable yet.

[Oeditpus Rex]

36. Al Downing

was the Dodgers pitcher. "Gentleman Al."

[IndianaJones]

37. Is there not a possibility Aaron used performance enhancing drugs?

Would your opinion of him change if it came to light that he did?

[IndianaJones]

38. I wouldn't call him a hero...greatest player of all time? Possibly.

[LynneSin]

40. Greatest Player bulked out on steriods - yeah, I'll give him that

Greatest Player - I highly doubt it.

[IndianaJones]

41. His statistics put him in the argument. It is a game of statistics. nt.

[Oeditpus Rex]

42. It's also a game of *analysis* of statistics (n/t)

[IndianaJones]

45. I would be interested to see any analysis that does not at least put him in the argument.

There is endless debate as to who the greatest is. There are some players that are unquestionably in that debate. Bonds is one.

[Oeditpus Rex]

47. Okay, I'll give you that

I was caught up in the theme of the thread, as well as no sleep.

Certainly, an argument can be made for Bonds as the best ever, just as arguments can be made for another dozen or so ballplayers. In my book, he doesn't win the argument — but if someone "wins" and the argument's over, where's the fun? :D

[IndianaJones]

48. Definitely agree. I happen to be in the camp that puts him there...

but I could not vehemently argue against at least 3 other players taking that "title".

[Oeditpus Rex]

49. The thing with Bonds is it's harder to be objective

Because there's always the "How much was him and how much was the roids?" question.

He got what he wanted, I guess. But along with it, he got what he didn't want.

[IndianaJones]

56. The debate is certainly clouded. For me...

there are several players that must also fall into the category of questionable. Mays and Aaron for amphetamine. Aaron for steroids. If the argument is made that Bonds must be discounted for his alleged use of performance enhancers, the field narrows considerably. Ruth, Williams, and players from up until about the mid 60's seem to be the only ones above reproach.

[MiserableFailure]

66. Um, NO

Look at my posts above

Babe Ruth and Ted Williams are the #1 and #2 greatest position players of all time. There is no debate. If we ignore the steroid issue then Bonds is #3.

#1 Ruth
#2 Williams
#3 Bonds
#4 Gehrig

There you go. And Bonds is only in the top 5 cause of those sick years from 2001-2004 where he was on roids and bashed like 250 homers

[Oeditpus Rex]

67. Oh, well — that settles it, then

:eyes:

[MiserableFailure]

68. Kinda funny

First of all that you are a Dodgers fan and arguing that Barry deserves to be in consideration for greatest ever.
When confronted with stats you refuse to look:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/OPSplus_career.shtml

On base percentage plus slugging. Best offensive metric out there. The OPS plus is adjusted for era the players played in and also home park factors(pitchers park, hitters park).

As you can see,

Ruth is 1st, Ted 2nd, and Barry is 3rd.

Barry is considerably behind Ruth, and closer to Ted, but when you throw the steroids in, it becomes even clearer that he's just not in the same league as those two.

[Oeditpus Rex]

69. One, my ball club has nothing to do with it

That suggests that I can't be objective. This is wrong.

Two, I haven't "argued" that he deserves consideration for greatest ever. I've acknowledged the logic of that consideration.

Three, I'm not even talking about any of this, but about your dogma. You say it is, therefore it is. "There is no debate."

There's always debate.

[MiserableFailure]

70. Stats don't lie

Should we debate whether or not Reggie Miller was a better player than Michael Jordan? Or that Johnny Damon was a better center fielder than Willie Mays? I mean we could, but it would be pretty stupid. Granted, Barry is closer to the top players then those examples, but it's still clear who the best player ever. If you poll baseball journalists, 85-90% of them say Ruth.

[Oeditpus Rex]

71. 'Stats don't lie'

Tell that to exit pollers in Ohio.

SABRmetrics — the psuedo-science for those incapable of actual debate.

[taught_me_patience]

76. You forgot to add in steals (514)

Barry was an all around offensive threat, including stealing bases. Also... please factor in the 8 gold gloves and being the all-time leader in walks. This, combined with the fact that Ruth and Williams did not have to play against black players, makes him the greatest all around player ever!

[MiserableFailure]

77. What about Babe Ruth's pitching?

Hmm? Ignoring the fact that he was a top pitcher for years before he became a hitter? Being able to pitch well AND hit well at the major league level is a huge deal...

[LynneSin]

39. George W. Bush - Greatest President EVER!!!!

:sarcasm:

I rate Bush and Bonds pretty much on the same level - 2 cheats who did whatever it took to win regardless of what rules they broke.

[Serial Mom]

44. Heehee

How true, how true....

one difference though, Bonds originally had the ability to be a great player without cheating!

[madinmaryland]

54. Well, when Bonds cheated (or cheats) no one has died.

BIG Difference.

[Initech]

61. I'm betting someone dies over #756.

But that's only if it happens in San Fransisco. Just sayin'! :evilgrin:

[KitchenWitch]

53. That must be photoshopped, Barry Bonds never smiles!

[driver8]

58. Barry Bonds -- selfish, ungrateful piece of shit.

How could anyone call this asshole a "Hero"?

[Bake]

60. I hope nobody pitches to him!

And he just gets walked from now until he retires. That would serve the Big Fat Cheater right.

Bake

[wildhorses]

79. henry aaron, hammerin' hank

"Throwing a fastball to Henry Aaron is like trying to sneak the sun past a rooster." --- Curt Simmons, pitcher

[Onceuponalife]

81. biggest jerk in sports

Even his own teammates can't stand him. How can you call this selfish jerk a hero when you've got someone like Pat Tillman to revere.

[ghostsofgiants]

82. He wasn't on the Springfield Nuclear Power Plant softball team, he's worthless.

[Common Sense Party]

83. What is this..."baseball" of which you speak?

I'm unfamiliar. Is it some sort of sporting diversion?

[Bullwinkle925]

84. As a Giants fan . . .

I'm sorry to say that he's wearing 'our' uniform. Wish he had been traded a long, long time ago.