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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 03:08 AM
Original message
Poll question: How many flames will I get on this GD post?
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Crazy Guggenheim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 03:10 AM
Response to Original message
1. Maybe a little.
:popcorn:
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KitchenWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 03:10 AM
Response to Original message
2. You have a set of brass cojones!
good for you!
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laheina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 03:12 AM
Response to Original message
3. I don't know.
I may be a little *too* open minded at times, but the polyamorous movement is picking up steam, and that is very similar. You think? :shrug:
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 03:14 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Most of the "polyamorous" people I've known personally
are a bit flaky, but I think it's hard to argue for gay marriage and not plural marriage as well. :shrug:
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laheina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Hmmm.
Neither one jibes with traditional (biblical) values, yet it is hard to say which one would evoke more fear in the conservatives. :)

The argument that you laid out in GD was compelling, though, mostly because of the benefits. I don't know about the interpersonal part of it, but those points are part of the reason that I've always admired the communal lifestyle.
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Polygamy jibes very well with biblical values
Polygamy was quite normal in biblical times--something the Fundies like to ignore. They choose to pretend that polygamy is some new or foreign concept that certain groups are foisting upon a chaste Christian public, when it is really a part of their own heritage.


There were 40 polygamists in the Bible--here are just a few:


Jacob (Israel)

Father of the twelve patriarchs of the tribes of Israel

"Israel"

"The prince of God"

4 Wives - Leah, Rachel, Bilhah and Zilpah

"And it came to pass in the evening, that he took Leah his daughter, and brought her to him; and he went in unto her." Genesis 29:23

"And Jacob did so, and fulfilled her week: and he gave him Rachel his daughter to wife also." Genesis 29:28

"And she gave him Bilhah her handmaid to wife: and Jacob went in unto her." Genesis 30:4

"When Leah saw that she had left bearing, she took Zilpah her maid, and gave her Jacob to wife." Genesis 30:9

http://www.biblicalpolygamy.com/polygamists/jacob/


Abraham

Faithful friend of God and father of the Hebrew nation

"Father of the faithful"

3 Wives - Sarah, Hagar and Keturah

"Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar." Genesis 16:1

"And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife." Genesis 16:3

"Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah." Genesis 25:1
http://www.biblicalpolygamy.com/polygamists/abraham/


Moses

Penned the Pentateuch, Torah, Genesis through Deuteronomy (which includes authoring the passages of Genesis chapters 2 through 3, Genesis 2:24, Exodus 21:10, Deuteronomy 21:15, etc.).

2 Wives, Zipporah and the Ethiopian Woman

"And Moses was content to dwell with the man: and he gave Moses Zipporah his daughter." Exodus 2:21. (See also Exodus 18:1-6.)

"And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman." Numbers 12:1
http://www.biblicalpolygamy.com/polygamists/moses/



For a full listing visit http://www.biblicalpolygamy.com/polygamists/



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laheina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Touche!
I was getting hammered left and right on some issues yesterday. :P

Having studied the bible for a good part of my college education, I should have thought better than putting it that way.

However, even while fundies like to ignore the Old Testament, and anything else in the bible that doesn't agree with their predetermined point of view, and they have an odd way of interpreting the bible using their idea of dispensationalism, they may still have a little bit of ground here.

Biblical exegesis is complicated. Even taking the OT by itself, the 3000 years BC and the Documentary Hypothesis almost preclude a person in some instances from saying "OK. This is it. This is *the* answer." Then that interpretation needs to be applied to daily life, and because culture changes, it's nearly impossible to do so. In this situation, these facts would mean that it is very difficult to use the argument that it is "Biblical" in support of polygamy. We could argue something similar regarding animal sacrifice at the temple.

OT aside, the fundies may have grounds to argue that by NT times, this practice was largely outmoded. The NT, despite what your link above may argue, did forbid it, and it was largely this section of the bible that was the basis for the traditional christian doctrines. The best that I can say about the linked polygamy site's take on the NT is that I spent some time with the Septuagint this morning, and they seem to be using the King James translation and making what I like to call "loop-hole" arguments based on the decisions of the translators in rendering the text from the ancient greek into english. This doesn't really pertain to the actual text as much as that it's a common way of rationalizing non-mainstream view points. It would take me a while to make a good study of it, though.

So because of the traditional Christian beliefs on this matter, maybe I should have used "Traditional Christian" instead of "Biblical?" But my opinion still remains the same: even thinking about the subject of polygamy would fry a fundie's brain! :)

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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. The NT did indeed forbid polygamy
But it still is false for the fundies to claim that trying to allow it in modern times is altering "traditional marriage". Polygamy was the original "traditional marriage" (or at least one of the forms of it) back in the very beginning, if you want to believe their Bible. Therefore going strictly to "one woman, one man" was a change in traditional marriage.


And the fundies by no means ignore the OT. They are quite fond of quoting it to support their hatred and oppression of gays, their portrayal of God as a vengeful being bent on throwing everyone into the hellfires (except them of course), and anything else they choose to glean from it. But as you pointed out, they ignore anything that is inconvenient for them (a policy I like to call the 'Cafeteria Plan'). They dance around this by claiming Jesus' coming negated it, those passages only applied to those people in that time, Paul only meant that part as a suggestion (yes, one actually said that to me :eyes:), and other clever excuses. At the same time, the things they want to impose on others are somehow indelibly written in stone. Go figure.


But my opinion still remains the same: even thinking about the subject of polygamy would fry a fundie's brain!

Thinking about marriage in which a woman has equal footing with a man would fry the average fundie's brain. Thinking about polygamy would make it explode. :rofl:
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Are you sure
that the NT forbids polygamy? The most I've ever seen is Paul's recommendation that Bishops not have more than one wife, which would imply that polygamy was being practiced by some. It is known that some early Christians practiced polygamy.
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. There are two passages
1 Timothy 3:2
2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

1 Timothy 3:12
12A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well.


And according to one site:

Although the New Testament passages relate to elders and deacons we can apply it to all Christians men because these are worthy standards for all men and we should all seek to be Holy as God is Holy (1 Peter 1:16), and if these standards are holy for elders and deacons then they are holy for all.

http://www.gotquestions.org/polygamy.html


I'm not saying I agree with it by any means, just throwing it out there.



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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. That's what I thought.
Edited on Thu Mar-16-06 12:03 PM by Radical Activist
The only condemnations are by Paul and applied to leaders in that area. There is no blanket condemnation or forbidding of polygamy in the New Testament. Polygamy was practiced by Jews in Jesus' time yet there's no record of him or the original 12 apostles condemning it. On the other hand, Old Testament passages specifically approve of and command plural marriages by some of the early patriarchs.

I'm not arguing that this justifies polygamy. I think its important to point out that this is part of the history and heritage of ALL Christianity, not just Mormons.
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laheina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. Yup.
While by the time of the NT, the Roman standard of monogamy was pretty much the norm, the Jews were pretty scandalized by the sexual laxity of the culture. There were also many cultures contained within the Roman Empire, and I'm betting that monogamy wasn't the norm for all of them.

While Jesus doesn't have a solid teaching regarding marriage, and polygamy isn't explicitly prohibited in the gospels, one can draw the conclusion from his discussions regarding divorce, for example, that he was generally favorable toward the institution and that he regarded monogamy as the normal--if not ideal--practice.

Later, Paul had a firmer doctrine on the subject of marriage, and while he was unmarried, he explicitly states in 1 Corinthians 7.2 that "each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband" and these are in the singular in the original. The King James Version reads the same.

However, there is a tendency for people not only to accept or ignore what they choose, but also to bend text during interpretation. :shrug:
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. So I was correct
Edited on Thu Mar-16-06 12:11 PM by Radical Activist
There is no specific condemnation of polygamy in the New Testament, except a recommendation from Paul to leaders in a specific area where monogamy was the norm. Paul had a lot of interesting comments about women and marriage that you won't find elsewhere in the Bible.
Jews practiced polygamy in Jesus' time and there's no record of his objection. Historical documents also show there were early Christians who practiced polygamy.
The suggestion that condemning divorce is somehow a condemnation of polygamy at the same time is counterintuitive.

There are a lot of good arguments about why polygamy is a bad idea, but you won't find them in the Bible. This is something that all of Christianity has in its past. If any, monogamy became the norm among Christians due to their adaptation to Roman cultural norms, which may be what Paul was suggesting to Timothy.
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laheina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. I don't know that we are on the same wavelength.
And I want you to know that I am in no way slamming the Mormons. I find that *most* religions use methods of theological rationalization of some form or another, and while I think that a good case can be made for the Mormons (or LDS, which I prefer to call them) it is by no means unique to them. The same can be said of the protestants, Catholics, and even some versions of Buddhism that I have studied.


"There is no specific condemnation of polygamy in the New Testament, except a recommendation from Paul to leaders in a specific area where monogamy was the norm."

That would speak to Buffy's verses from the "Household Codes" of the later epistles, but not to mine. If you read the entirety of 1 Corinthians 7, Paul is recommending that people do not marry unless they find it necessary to prevent immorality. He then says that in this case, you may marry, but only one person. The extension of this to the leaders of the community is interesting in this respect because they were examples to the others. This was put up as the ideal, that "Each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband." For disregarding this as only pertaining to a certain area, see below.

I am also aware of the argument that the LDS used against this verse, which is circuitous at best.


"Paul had a lot of interesting comments about women and marriage that you won't find elsewhere in the Bible."

Paul had points on lots of stuff that wasn't anywhere else in the bible, but this isn't unique to Paul. He is far from my favorite Biblical character, and in fact, I would just choose to ignore him altogether if I could. However, here in lies the issue in theology and biblical studies: who gets to decide? By choosing to ignore or theologically weigh some sections heavier than others, a person can justify almost anything, especially when we take the biblical content out of it's original context and start imposing select facts or opinions onto the text based on modern sensibilities. Therefore, I think it's a better methodology to use the Bible as a whole, and (with a very few exceptions in the Torah based on literary methods of the time) trust that the early Christian redactors *at the very least* created a work that was for the most part logically coherent based on their practices. Hell, they changed enough stuff--they should have gotten it right at some point.


"Jews practiced polygamy in Jesus' time and there's no record of his objection. Historical documents also show there were early Christians who practiced polygamy."

Jews practiced polygamy but it was the exception, not the rule at that time. There were people that did, that is true. However, taking a few recorded instances and projecting it onto the whole society is fallacious. If a man showed up with his three wives, let's say, and Paul converted him, he wasn't going to make him divorce them. No Christian of church rank would have done so. It was more important that they were brought into the church, and nobody was thinking long term at this point. Paul didn't think that a spouse that wasn't Christian should be divorced. But he also thought that people that could avoid it shouldn't be married at all. This is why: Paul's eschalogical viewpoint. Paul thought that Jesus was a comin' any second. He didn't think that *anyone* should be making any long term plans or commitments, and that marriage should only be undertaken as a short term vehicle for avoiding sexual sin. This wasn't a regional thing. This was the foundation of his theology, and everything that is genuinely Pauline needs to be read with this in mind.


"The suggestion that condemning divorce is somehow a condemnation of polygamy at the same time is counterintuitive."

I don't think that I ever would have argued that point. In bringing it up at all, I was just providing background. I agree that it was a trivial bit of info.


"There are a lot of good arguments about why polygamy is a bad idea, but you won't find them in the Bible. This is something that all of Christianity has in its past."

Really, I'm not trying to say that polygamy is bad or not. If you read my earlier posts in this thread, I think that it has some pretty good points. If the people involved are all willing, I think that they should be able to go for it!

I also agree that Judaism is the legacy of Christianity. Learning about their religion sheds oodles of light on Christian beliefs, especially the early ones. I will also gladly lay claim to the Patriarchs as such--polygamy and all.

However, the lack of an explicit injunction against polygamy in the Bible is a pretty poor case for it.


"If any, monogamy became the norm among Christians due to their adaptation to Roman cultural norms, which may be what Paul was suggesting to Timothy."

Actually, the Jews--previous to Jesus' time-- were the ones that had adapted to Roman norms. They had been under Roman dominion and previous to that were under the Dominion of the Ptolemaic dynasty--hence the koine greek of the NT. They had adopted much of that culture as well. However, the origins of Judaism came from a people that saw themselves as a people apart--God's chosen people. One of the most telling interpretations of Jesus' teachings puts him in the light of a revolutionary against this cultural movement (of adaption of foreign cultures) and can be found in the works of John Dominic Crossan-- one of the founders of the Jesus Seminar.
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laheina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. You Know it!
:rofl:

And your 'Cafeteria Plan' is an awesome turn of a phrase. I'm gonna' borrow that, the next time the occasion permits. :hi:
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billyskank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
22. Jesus' coming negated it
Yes indeed. He said a load of stuff about rich people too, IIRC. :)

But, as you pointed out, they take the bits that fit their lives and forget about the bits that challenge them. :(
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laheina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Hi there!
Hi Billy! :hi:

Yup, I agree. Buffy called it the 'Cafeteria Plan,' and I think that is a damn fitting description. :)
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Crazy Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. And some that I've known fit more into the "swinger" category
More in it for the sex versus an actual relation of shared love, commitment and obligations. Not true polyamory.
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laheina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #9
26. Yes.
That's not my cup o' tea, but I think that there is a distinction to be made between the two.

Many people will use the description of polyamory, because it has less of a negative connotation than 'swinging'.

Likewise, some true polyamorists will be labeled as swingers because it isn't very well developed in a social context. I will be awhile before many can get their brains around it.

:hi:
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realisticphish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 06:57 AM
Response to Original message
7. If you posted in here
it would be all "Oh, that XemaSab!"

but in GD...
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 12:33 AM
Response to Original message
11. That last sentence was just BEGGING for trouble. I like it.
Redstone
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TimeChaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 01:19 AM
Response to Original message
14. I hope not,
because I agree totally.

:hi: What's up XemaSab? I've been gone from DU for a few days as I waste away my spring break.
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ProudToBeBlueInRhody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 02:32 AM
Response to Original message
17. Too easy......
GD has had it's sense of humor removed.
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Broken_Hero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 02:54 AM
Response to Original message
18. ha...
good points, i had to throw in my two cents, in a few places...good post...:)
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Rowdyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 03:31 AM
Response to Original message
19. Well, I posted on it and it was anything but a flame
Response to Reply #97
143. Are you familiar with Robert Heinlein's "Lazarus Long" scifi series?

To many fans of early scifi he is a real artist. Lazarus Long was a long lived, multiply married man who eventually traveled back in time, fell in love with his own mother, and (during an affair) became his own father.

Besides that tidbit (which I HAD to mention) the future world he envisions involved large, expanded families of consensual adults raising children as a commune. If you're interested in the subject, I think you'd enjoy his interpretation.
"You can't say civilization isn't advancing; in every war, they kill you in a new way"...Will Rogers

Fascinating question. Thanks for posing it.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
24. ppfft, "flames", don't you mean "how many ph#'s"...
:rofl:
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SOteric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-16-06 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
27. You left out one of the biggest benefits:
If you should murder any one of your co-spouses, there'll be an obfuscatingly large number of other suspects for the police to focus their investigation on.
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