Do you believe that child abusers should be forgiven...?

[bliss_eternal]

...by their children? By society? Or is their crime beyond any level of forgiveness? Or should they suffer harsher sentences?

I was reading an article about the father of the guy from the Beach Boys--so sad. I had heard that his father abused him, but had no idea to what extent. After reading this article, I get why that poor man was so messed up for so long.

This is what bothers me about people that seem to think having children is some sort of obligation, one can absolutely destroy a person for a great many years, if not forever based on hurting them when they are children. If someone isn't mentally prepared or capable of being a parent, they should not have children, imo. Because it seems that some people never completely recover from such abuse.

So, what are your thoughts on this? Should children forgive parents that abuse them at some point? Should society? Or can the abuse of a child ever be forgiven?

[billyskank]

1. In my opinion *anyone* should be forgiven

but the quid pro quo is a commitment not to offend again. That in turn requires trust. So, I would say everyone should be theoretically forgiven, but not necessarily automatically.

[bliss_eternal]

2. I understand what you are saying...

I agree that anyone deserves forgiveness. I just don't know how easy it is in some cases for children to offer it.

In the article I read, the Beach boys didn't attend their father's funeral. Can't say I blamed them at all...

[mzteris]

44. maybe it's better said

Anyone deserves the opportunity to DESERVE forgiveness.

[bliss_eternal]

53. Well said,

(lol)Always good to see you, mzteris. :hi:

[mzteris]

100. I have to admit, though

I'm not sure forgiveness is always possible, regardless of the circumstances - which has much more to do with the person doing the forgiving than the one being forgiven.

While I do think understanding WHY someone may have behaved the way they did surely goes a long way towards being able to forgive that person, somethings just can't BE forgiven, IMO.

Also, I think that once the individual - themself - is AWARE of WHY they behave the way they do, then it becomes incumbent upon them to seek the help they need to NOT DO THAT ANYMORE! If they "can't control themselves" then - get committed, incarcerated, take yourself off the count - 'cause there "ain't no excuse" for continuing to perpetrate the abuse anymore.

Sounds simplistic, doesn't it?

[bliss_eternal]

103. No, not at all--

(sound simplistic I mean)...

I think what you describe is part of being human and part of being an adult. I don't think it's simplistic at all. It takes a great amount of strength to acknowledge personal problems and shortcomings. It takes even greater strength to surrender to the fact that one has no control over their ability to 'stop doing something' so that they can get help somehow.

I'm always impressed by people that know they don't have what it takes to be parents, so they give their child up for adoption, or they choose not to have children at all, etc. I wish more people 'thought' about what parenting means and the immense responsibility involved before...

[jpgray]

52. I'm with you (nt)

[no name no slogan]

102. Exactly. Forgive, but never forget

If the person sincerely asks for forgiveness and is genuinely regretful for what s/he has done, then by all means they should be forgiven.

However, their actions should not be forgotten. They still need te re-establish trust with society and their victims.

[LaurenG]

3. Yes

Parents generally do to their kids what was done to them. At some point someone has to stop the perpetuation. There are ways to find healing and it is a long hard process for many but yes forgive them, find a way for the sake of future generations.

[derby378]

4. Hell, no

The very fact that they were abused means that they have an obligation to stop the cycle themselves rather than perpetuate it. They know what abuse can do to a child, and we're to forgive them for doing it anyway?

Lock them up for a good, long stretch. I don't want these child beaters breathing air that can be better utilized by law-abiding citizens who love their children and actually know how to discipline them without screwing them up for life.

[LaurenG]

5. Right they should have stopped it but in this instance they didn't

Now what? The child of these adults has to live the rest of their life feeling horrible. There has to be a way to gain peace. I was an abused child so I'll speak for myself here. I had to find a way to forgive my abuser. I was fortunate enough to have enough spirit not to let them break me. I also confronted the abuse when I was older. For me it was a long hard process but I have forgiven them and now my kids are the better for it.

[bliss_eternal]

10. Stopping the cycle and forgiveness

would seem to me to be two seperate issues. I could be wrong. What are your thoughts on that?

I think it's possible for one to stop the cycle by not abusing their own children (or not having children, or not allowing the children to be alone with the grandparents, etc.). But wouldn't it also be possible that one could stop the cycle AND still choose to not forgive those that abused them?

Is one dependent on the other in your opinion?

[LaurenG]

14. Yes, this one

"But wouldn't it also be possible that one could stop the cycle AND still choose to not forgive those that abused them?"

I chose, for my own peace of mind to let it go. After many years and then hearing stories of how badly the abuser was treated I realized that mean people aren't happy they are trying to find a way to relieve their own demons. It's very complex and everyone must figure that out for themselves. For me personally I had to find a way to let it all go and I chose to let them off the hook.

[bliss_eternal]

23. I'm glad that you were able to

make peace with the situation and this solution worked for you. Very sorry for what was done to you...:hug:

[bliss_eternal]

11. Many abusers are incapable

of reasonable thought or the ability to take responsibility for what they did. When confronted, they deny what they did was wrong or 'that bad,'they diminish the damage they inflicted, or worse they blame the child for what they did.

I have trouble sorting out if people like this are entitled to anything from their victims(children). If they weren't related--if it was just some random guy that beat up a random child they didn't even know, would anyone say that the child should forgive that person for what they did?

Why is it that society deems that parents are owed respect and forgiveness when they ruin a child's life. The child does not ask to be born, nor abused once they get here...

[smirkymonkey]

78. True. This is my problem w/ my stepmother, and even my

father who kind of "looked the other way." Any time I have tried to discuss it with them, I get the "After all we've done for you....My mother beat me...blah blah blah" Never an acknowledgement or an apology. This was "Mommie Dearest" type of abuse too - sick games and physical abuse. For some reason, I feel that the abuser must at least acknowledge what they have done in order to open the door for forgiveness.

I dropped trying to resolve this years ago, deciding it was pointless. I have worked on forgiveness, acceptance & understanding in therapy and in recovery (4th steps - many of them) however I still find myself in relationships with abusive people (mostly bosses and roommates - I would never put up with it in an intimate relationship, although I have in the past.) I thought I could work through it on my own - maybe I can, but maybe not.

[madeline_con]

127. "Why is it that society deems that parents are

owed respect and forgiveness when they ruin a child's life."

I never got the impression that society did that. Abuse is unforgiveable.

[NashVegas]

33. Previous Generations Didn't Have the Info We Do

Well, depending on whether or not they looked around and made correlations, came to conclusions.

[sojourner]

54. i'll speak up as one of those abused children who becomes the abuser

-- completely the opposite of what I intended for my life. No, not sexual abuse (thank god). No not ritual abuse or other sick perverted abuse that you sometimes read about (thank god). Just the sort of "ordinary" "normal" "good old American" spank the kid 'til my hand hurt, and when that wasn't enough use a belt; yell at them when I was mad; tell them how disappointed I was in them; lose control of my temper and scare the shit out of them with my violence even though not directed at them - (they still saw it)!

Please do not start in on me until you hear me out...nobody plans on abusing their children -- and if speaking up here gets me totally hated then that tells me a lot about the mindset and the ability of people here to see beyond their own limited point of view.

When I had my family I pretended there was nothing wrong with me. I had no idea what the pent up rage that came from my childhood of sexual and emotional and physical abuse could do to me and those I loved. I was surrounded by loving and forgiving people who could not understand the idea of hating someone for what they had done to you, so I learned to completely bottle mine up. Problem with doing that is that the rage gets served as "leftovers" to the people closest to your heart.

I finally went to get professional help when I got so desperate that I wanted (and tried) to kill myself. No big loss as far I went...I'm sure you'll agree. But I thought about what THAT would do to my kids. I got help.

Along the way, I learned to forgive myself. I learned to forgive my father...but I had to experience and work through my rage before I could bring myself there. And, no one could have or should have forced that choice on me. It was purely my own decision...based on my own feeling that my father acted out of his own dysfunction and was as lost as I felt when I was in a rage.

My decision to forgive him was the most healing moment in my life. I highly recommend it.

Not only did it allow healing for me, but because it was managed with honesty and integrity, it also gave my dad a chance to get some healing, too. Further than that, it helped my own children. Forgiving my dad gave me the humility to ask my own kids for their forgiveness. And the help I sought really did help me to put away all that dysfunctional anger. It allowed me the insight to recognize how my actions were just acting out what I had experienced myself and gave me the tools I needed to change my actions.

I have children who have witnessed and experienced abuse. But they have witnessed and experienced healing. They are terrific people. I am extremely proud of them. I wish I could do more to correct the mistakes I've made, and when I see the opportunity, I DO take it. But, mostly, I am glad someone didn't decide to lock me up and throw away the key. Because then my chance for redemption would have been lost, as would the chance for my dad's healing and the love that my children and I now share.

But it's between the abuser and the abused, this forgiveness. Society at large forgive me? I haven't asked. Neither did my dad or my mom. I don't think that YOU or anyone else putside the situation holds the power to forgive abusers.

[derby378]

65. Thank you for sharing your story

Here's the view from where I sit:

If I ever experienced abuse from my parents, it was strictly of the mental/emotional kind, and it was very rare - children do have a tendency to test their parents to the limit, and I'm sure I've done it a few times, myself. But part of my own strife with my folks stemmed from when our family embraced fundamentalist religion - when your parents try to stifle the search for answers with demands for blind obedience to artificial dogma, something's got to give.

On the other hand, although I did get spanked once in a while (including with a belt), my mother and father gave me an otherwise good home, stayed on me to keep my grades up in school, rejoiced in my achievements and consoled me in my times of sadness or personal disappointment. Sure, we've had words, but we have a great relationship. And even though my father and I were distanced from each other for a while, I feel we've gotten closer over time.

Having read your experiences, my heart aches for what you went through. I'm glad that you're recovering, and I wish you the best in the future.

Granted, without actually experiencing what you did to your children, it sounds like your level of abuse is NOT what I had in mind when I talked about locking abusers in jail. I've heard too many stories of children being beaten with appliances and furniture, struck with closed fists, or scarred for life by being pressed against hot stove burners. That is the abuse I alluded to earlier, and as far as I'm concerned, too many parents still get off scot free with this sort of activity. And I stand firm with my conviction that these abusers should be locked away - as opposed to you, who never inflicted any long-lasting injury on your children and who was tormented by inner demons of your own. The key here is that these other parents are largely content to remain in their own cycle of dysfunction and abuse. You, on the other hand, were not. You got out.

Some lyrics from a Marilyn Manson song have just forced themselves into my head: "I want to love, I want to live, but it's a long hard road out of Hell." Maybe this is of some relevance to your own ordeal and your own journey away from abuse; I can't say for sure either way. But I am certainly glad you didn't kill yourself. If you snuff out a single candle in a roomful of candles, doesn't the room still get a little darker anyway? Death has a way of doing that. And it's obvious from what you told me that you would have been dearly missed by those who were closest to your heart.

Again, thank you. Keep your feet upon the path to peace, and have a happy New Year if I don't bump into you again before the clock strikes midnight.

:hug:

[bliss_eternal]

77. as derby stated

so well, I was also referring to punishment and jail for people that inflict irrevocable harm upon a child.

Violent torture, sexual abuse, physically and/or emotionally terrorizing them, dumping water on them, blacking eyes, breaking limbs, molestation, one parent (or other adult) watching while the other parent does any or all of the above, etc., etc.

[datasuspect]

6. depends on the type of abuse

.

[bliss_eternal]

7. What types do you consider 'unforgiveable' ?

...so to speak (not sure that's a word--lol).

[datasuspect]

8. ugh

child molesters.


there is some shame in this world that people don't deserve to have absolved.

[bliss_eternal]

13. thank you

for sharing. I agree with you on that one.

[YankeyMCC]

9. By individuals perhaps

but not by society. I'm not sure "forgiveness" really has much meaning on a societal level. But people who've abused children have proven themselves to be a direct threat to the very core of society, the very thing (children) that our society requires for continuation. All the worse because society exists largely to protect this simultaneously critical and defenseless component of our society - the children.

So I don't see how a responsible society can continue to allow people who've proven to be such a threat to our success as a society to remain free within the society - ever again.

I don't support the death penalty in the real world because of the inequities but there are limited cases where I can understand it's use theoretically and child abuse is one such case.

But individuals may choose to forgive other individuals and in fact that too is core to being human, and that's one reason that I would lock up child abusers forever but not kill them, because killing them (besides the chances of being wrong in convictions) would rob them and others of the chance of being and expressing their humanity - thus reducing us all.

[bliss_eternal]

12. Interesting thoughts

I appreciate your sharing them. :hi:

For a long time I used to say that I supported the death penalty for child abusers, primarily molesters. This came after seeing documentaries and reading articles where molesters were stating that after counseling, incarceration and other rehabilitation the desire to molest just didn't diminish or go away.

In a weird way, I thought it was just more humane to kill them and put them out of their sick misery. With time I evolved, and changed my mind. I personally just can't endorse killing anyone for any reason. It's not for me to say if someone lives or dies.

But I do sincerely wish there was some way to make sure people like that never saw freedom again. I just don't believe that aspect of them changes, unfortunately.

To molest a child, that is the one thing in life that is non-negotiable in terms of forgiveness in my opinion.

[YankeyMCC]

21. I sympathize with that thought

I feel the same way about molesters, it's the way they are and they're not likely to change.

And although I also sympathize and recognize the need for individuals to forgive these people I at the same time recognize it is beyond my capability to forgive them. I know this from personal experience, a close friend of mine has a child that was essentially threatened with severe physical violence and subjected to extreme verbal assault by her grandfather (my friends father-in-law). My friend's child was not hurt and my friend put his father-in-law in his place at the moment.

I never liked this guy much and after hearing this story I have never forgiven this man and do not speak to him even when I see him at my friend's home for parties and such. Which is the odd thing because my friend or at least his wife and he's peacefully going along, and even my friend's child all appear to have forgiven this man - but I haven't.

[fishnfla]

15. Well, dad, you fucked up my life forever. But I'm over it, really

Its not you, its me. Its my fault for being naive and vulnerable.

Lets go have a beer.....:puke:

[bliss_eternal]

24. I know you didn't mean it to--

but your response made me laugh aloud. It does sound rather silly put this way, doesn't it?

[jmm]

16. I guess it depends on what you mean by forgive.

I had a psych professor once admit that even though he was legally obligated to report child abuse he and his colleagues often didn't because they thought it would be too disruptive to the family to have an abusive person prosecuted. I immediately launched into one of those I don't care if you fail me rants and stated how I was sickened by the idea that most people make allowances for abuse that takes place between people that know each other. If anything the penalties should be more severe when somebody abuses their child. Physical pain means almost nothing in terms of how one recovers. When I was in high school I got into a fight with a girl named Jen. She started it but I made sure I finished it. I later found out that when she got home she was slapped around for losing. I can't help but to think that what her father did to her effected her far more then the bruises she got from me.

Getting back to the point of the thread, if a person was raped, beaten, and/or verbally assaulted by a stranger we would all understand how they could forgive the person yet not want anything to do with them. Yes I believe it is healthy for people who have been abused to let go of any anger they may feel but that doesn't mean they have to embrace their abuser even if they are related to them. It is impossible to go back into ones past and recreate a happy childhood complete with great role models but this is what most people want to do when they talk of forgiving abusive parents.

[Evergreen Emerald]

18. disruptive to the family

Your professor makes me angry. He had an obligation to protect that child and any other the abuser might take a hankerin for. Instead the decided to define disruptive through the eye of the abuser. Think of the "disruption" the child endured.

The point of the thread: I do not think the two are mutually exclusive. A person can get time in prison and be forgiven by his victim. I have seen many victims forgive their abusers, but want to ensure that they don't do it to anyone else, and also to pay for what they did through time in prison.

I guess it depends on the definition of forgiveness.

[bliss_eternal]

27. Evergreen Emerald--

this bothers me, too. It always bothers me that some seem to enable abusers, despite the damage it does to the children.

I am guessing it is based on the old belief system that ultimately it is best for a child to be with their parents. But when does society deem this not to be best, especially if one is proven to be abusing the child? This has always bugged me...

[bliss_eternal]

26. This is probably the closest many ever get--

Quote:
Yes I believe it is healthy for people who have been abused to let go of any anger they may feel but that doesn't mean they have to embrace their abuser even if they are related to them.

Sometimes it seems that so much is made of people 'moving on' that they fail to actually process what happened. By that I mean, go through all the stages, denial, anger, bargaining, acceptance, etc... THEN if they can, forgive. I've seen so many feel that to forgive means exactly what you said in the last sentence of your post--embracing the abuser, pretending everything was shiny and happy.

It troubles me that more people aren't comfortable with the concept of being able to separate themselves from and severing ties to the abuser--and forgiving if they choose to, are able to, etc.

It seems that our society puts so much on the shoulder's of the child/victim/survivor and little on the abuser. That troubles me...

[rug]

17. Yes, nothing is unforgiveable.

[BlueIris]

19. No.

I had a whole post prepared in explanation, but I'm not going to bother. I think forgiveness must be earned. Someone so damaged that he or she would abuse a child isn't, in many cases, (not all, but many) capable of understanding normal, civilized, human behavior. They're not capable of earning forgiveness in any kind of valid, meaningful way. If some other survivors are capable of gaining peace through forgiving their abusers, great, but I don't believe that this (potential) method of helping survivors heal should be encouraged by the mental health profession (and no self-respecting pro I've ever worked with to deal with my abuse issues has ever tried to impose this philosophy on me). Telling someone that they must forgive somone who is not interested in or capable of remorse for their behavior, (and can't deserve forgiveness as they cannot replace or make restitution for what they've taken away) doesn't promote health. Because it isn't rational. As for society, in my opinion, "forgiving" child abusers through all of the myriad of ways these abusers suffer no real accountability for their crimes impedes progress advocates are trying to make to protect people from abusers in our society. It's equivalent to validating the abuse, even more so than the ignorant "forgiveness is the only way" approach to treating survivors is.

For the record? Child abusers are beneath scum. Those of you here who have abused children, (you know who you are) including the "it was just spanking/yelling/denying food/a 'little' harsh criticism about her weight" crowd are deeply damaged individuals. Please don't choose to have or raise any additional children, and keep your dysfunction as far away from any children your family members have as you can. A psychiatrist, a behaviorist and a fat pile of tranquilizers can help, I'm told, but even then...stay away from kids, 'kay? We'll all be better off that way.

[bliss_eternal]

28. I liked what you said here--

thank you. You bring up something that has bothered me for some time. Forgiving those that in many cases don't (and won't) acknowledge what they've done.

If one looks at this from the standpoint of religion, you can't be forgiven of sins unless you ask. How can one forgive a parent/guardian for something they choose to not even take responsiblity for? In fact in many cases, continuing to abuse the survivor by denying the abuse and creating more damage (as the survivor questions their memory of the events).

This has bothered me for some time. I'm actually rather relieved to see I'm not the only one that doesn't readily buy into this idea.

[fight4my3sons]

35. This is a problem for my husband.

His family is in denial of what they did to him when he was a child. He will not even tell me all of it. I knew it was bad when the last time we saw them was the day our first son was born (three years ago). He said that when he saw them around him he realized that he could never let his children be around them knowing what they did to him, especially when they deny everything they have done and blame him for all that has gone wrong in the family. We tried to go through family mediation, but they argued with us over who they thought was a "qualified" family therapist. We wanted an actual therapist with a degree in family counseling, they wanted the priest from the church. We don't go to church. We said that we would meet with both, they said no. That was the last of that. My husband and I went to individual counseling and we haven't had contact with them since.

[BlueIris]

36. Good for your husband (and you)

for calling that situation for what it was: UNACCEPTABLE. Especially if they wanted to be around your kids. For the record, not knowing anything about the situation because I've never met a single one of you--they aren't just "in denial" about the abuse they inflicted on your husband; they're ultimately not capable of understanding that what they did was wrong, nor will they ever be safe for your children to be around.

[fight4my3sons]

40. Thank you for your reply.

My husband has said the same thing. He does not want his family around our children. Especially because they are boys. He feels that they will just treat them the same way he was treated. I really don't know what went on, his childhood Friends have even told me that I don't want to know. I do know that he chose to go to military school to get away from them during middle and high school. He also moved in with a girlfriend's family for three years and had no contact with them during that time.
He is a wonderful father to our boys. Very sensitive and caring. Very gentle. He is very careful about the way he deals with them and often talks to me about how we are doing things now, what could be done different, what we will do in the future. He is doing everything he can to make sure these boys do not live the life that he did as a child. Of course, I did not live that life and that makes a difference also.

[bliss_eternal]

56. fight4--

I agree with BlueIris, they are not in denial. They are incapable of understanding what they did was wrong. I'm glad that you and he have chosen to not have those people in your lives and the lives of your children.

I'm so sorry for what your dh has been through. :hug: to both of you!Thank you so much for sharing what I'm sure has been difficult for you both. Your story proves that one has little to do with the other--one CAN break the cycle, with or without forgiving the family of origin. Sounds like it's best to NOT have contact with them, when they are still sick--especially when there are children involved.

[fight4my3sons]

115. Thank you

It is a hard choice. Everyone thinks these are lovely people. That has always been the worst part for my husband. If they only knew. I know it will be hard when the kids start asking about their grandparents. My husband says that he is going to tell them that they are sick and that is why we don't see them. He says that the older they get and the more they grow into self confident individuals, the happier he is with his decision. Every time our older son gets into mischief he has said "boy, my parents would've beat me something awful for that" and my oldest is only three so I can't even imagine the things he has gone through. Really, don't all little kids get into things? aren't they all curious explorers? He says his parents didn't see things that way. :-(

[bliss_eternal]

117. Yes, all children do

get into things. It's their nature, as you said they are all curious explorers--and should be. How else do they learn.

How did your husband become so evolved and sane after surviving those people? He sounds like a great father and husband.

:hi: Thank you so much for sharing your experiences with me, here--I really appreciate it!

[fight4my3sons]

132. With my husband I think it was

the influence of his ex girlfriend's parents that he lived with for the three years and the love ans support that they gave him. He adores them. We still send them Christmas cards every year. They paid for him to go to college! The mother was a clinical psychologist, that could have helped. She used to tell him that it really was not normal, what was going on in his family and what was happening to him. That is all he has told me. That and how he saw those parents treat their children and how it differed from how his parents treated him and his siblings. It made him realize that his family did not function well.

[bliss_eternal]

138. Wow--

they sound like amazing people--angels in your husband's life. They put him through college!? That is so wonderful!

His life would be completely different if they weren't in it. Isn't it interesting how it sometimes takes one thing to really change things?

[khashka]

48. I'll disagree with you slightly

I do think forgiveness is important. For the person who was abused, not the abuser.

I can only speak from my own experience. My parents were great.


But when I was 17 I was brutally raped by a guy who killed and dismembered the people he raped. Except me. 22 years later I still wake up crying and sweating and remembering. Forgiveness was an important part of healing from that. The healing still continues but when I forgave him I felt set free. No longer did my life have to be filled with rage and hurt and fear - it was MY life again.


Khash.

[bliss_eternal]

58. Khashka--

omg--(((khashka))) I'm SO sorry you experienced this. It's wonderful that forgiveness was part of your healing process, I agree that it's about YOU and should be. Just because you forgave the guy, doesn't mean you necessarily want to sit down and have dinner with him. Your ability to act with and show such grace is so profound... :hug:

[khashka]

101. Thank you

But it's nothing really. Terrible things happen. To all of us. You can let it destroy you (which I did for far too long) or you can use it to help yourself (and if you're lucky) help others (which I hope I have done).

Maybe forgiveness isn't the best route for everyone. But it was necessary for me.


I do feel cheated. He was executed. I never wanted vengeance or to hurt him. All I ever wanted was to ask him "why". I'm not stupid, I already know the answer. But I really needed for him to look me in the eye and answer that question.


I really hate telling this. I do, because, like I said, terrible things happen. To all of us. You really want to know what the worst part was? Never ever being allowed to say what happened. So I tell it - because maybe there is someone reading my words who thinks if "he can say it, so can I".

Khash.

[JanMichael]

79. I agree with you. On the point that forgiveness is earned and that abusers

should stay the fuck away from kids, period.

We would ALL be better off if the people that control themselves stopped fucking with future generations. It just isn't right.

[Rabrrrrrr]

104. Forgiveness that is "earned" is not forgiveness, it's vengeance.

Forgiveness comes from within the forgiver, regardless of the penitence/remorse/whatever of the one being forgiven.

Forgiveness only works when it is offered freely and without condition.

If anyone waits until the person who needs forgiveness apologies, rectifies their life, or otherwise acts in accordance with the wishes of the forgiver, the forgiver is gonna be waiting forever to offer the forgiveness, and will likely spend all that time suffering from anger and/or hatred.

No, forgiveness is never earned - it is given.

What *IS* earned is reconciliation. And certainly not every act of forgiveness leads to or ends with reconciliation; and that's okay.

[JanMichael]

106. Well in my case it's a two way street.

The abuser must, must, show defined conciliatory behavior in addition to the aggrieved accepting that behavior (Both the past and present). Both situations must be grounded in reality.

Basically the unrepentant abuser does not under any circumstance DESERVE "forgiveness" and I say that as the offender being "given" something.

This is a semantics game I guess.

Peraps there is more than one level of "Foregiveness?"

One is internal and the other is external? One is for the release of the abused the other is to the abuser?

[Rabrrrrrr]

109. But that is not healthy - insisting that the forgivee show some sign

of repentance or change in behavior, etc., might very well leave the one in the position to forgive without ever having a chance to forgive.

Forgiveness comes solely from within - "I forgive so and so for their behavior". It's a letting go of the hate and anger, it isn't the culmination of a vendetta or vengeance ("Now that you have met all my demnds, I forgive you").

I think there is only one level of forgiveness. The next step, after forgiveness, MIGHT be reconciliation. But, if the one being forgiven shows no signs of behavioral change, reconciliation is out of the question. And the one who forgives might simply never feel the trust or desire to seek reconciliation.

Forgiveness is a letting go of the ego and saying "Whatever you did, I accept it, it happened, it is part of who I am, and while I wish it had never happened, I am no longer going to spend energy hating you or wishing you dead or whatever because it is wearing down my soul and is more painful to me now than the pain you caused me".

And forgiveness does not have to be done in person, and the forgivee does not ever even need to know that it's been given. You might forgive someone who's been long dead; or someone who is now in prison; or someone far away.

Reconciliation is the in-person, relational part - and that's the part that demands behavioral changes on the part of the forgivee.

Think of John Paul II - he forgave the man who shot him, and then later visited him in prison and they came to a reconciliation, or at least an understanding.

[philosophie_en_rose]

110. Forcing forgiveness isn't forgiveness ... it's revictimization.

An abuser has no right to be forgiven. They have no right to expect trust from society or, especially, from the victim.

It is healthy for survivors to eventually come to the point where criminals are put out of their mind. That doesn't have to mean forgiveness; it can be, but it can also be a realization that the rapist or abuser is no longer a threat.

There are unforgiveable crimes. If you've ever seen a child after he's been raped and tortured, I dare you to ever tell him that he must forgive.

Rape and abuse are crimes that affect people other than the victim. Other family members, friends, neighbors... do they have an obligation to embrace a child rapist? Or have any association with the rapist at all?

Child abusers must earn forgiveness. There is an element of vengeance, but it's secondary to the protection of survivors. An abuser has no right to expect forgiveness and should stay the hell away, getting treatment on his own. To do otherwise is masochistic.

[Rabrrrrrr]

112. Couple questions for you:

Where did I say that one MUST or should be FORCED to forgive? I didn't.

Why does an abuser have no right to be forgiven? I have forgiven some who have abused me - am I thus and therefore ethically and morally negligent for given them a right that you apparently believe they do not have?

Where did I say that society has to trust abusers? I didn't.

To say that there are unforgivable crimes is to perpetuate a myth. People can forgive whatever the hell they want to forgive, regardless of how you might feel about it. I should hope that you are not a counselor or therapist - if you are, and you are telling victims that there are crimes that are unforgivable, then you are abusing your clients and forcing them into eternal suffering by telling them that if they try to release their pain, they are wrong. How awful.

And again, where did I ever say that people should be forced to forgive? I didn't.

And where did I say that forgiveness requires embracing? Or a relationship with the abuser? I have, in fact, said the opposite, both in the post you are responding to and my other posts. Please read my post.

And I will say it again - forgiveness that is earned is not forgiveness - that might be reconcilation, but not necessarily. But forgiveness comes solely from within. And I have known, and I accept the truth of, people who have not been able to forgive until their abuser (of whatever form) has died. And that's okay.

[smirkymonkey]

80. Thanks - I often feel so guilty for not completely forgiving the

person who severely abused me and most of my adult life I have been crippled by the effects of this abuse (compounded by my hyper-sensitivity and addictive nature).

I still dislike my stepmother, mostly because she is still an asshole, but I act kindly toward her and have silently declared detente. However, seeing how she treats my niece and nephew (although she doesn't "abuse" them, she despises them because they are the grandchildren of my real mother - whom my father loved deeply.) has kind of brought it all back again for me.

She is still verbally abusive and I still despise my self when I am around her and her children. I don't know how to make that go away.

[bliss_eternal]

121. I think that unfortunately

guilt is part of the process. Children are taught to obey their parents, to love and honor their parents no matter what.

When children grow up with abuse, maltreatment becomes their norm. They don't know anything else. So when the adult child tries to assimilate healthier behaviours like distancing themselves from their abuser, it's difficult for them on so many levels. Guilt is kind of a rebound affect of abused children trying to care for themselves.

Abused kids are conditioned to NOT CARE about themselves, to accept inappropriate and cruel treatment. When they reject that, move away from it and try to process all the conflicting feelings it's not easy. The old abused person, will cry out with guilt. Trying to keep one tied to what is comfortable and familiar(the abuse). In time, the healthier stuff becomes more ingrained and the guilt fades.

Despising yourself in the presence of abuse, sounds like you aren't as comfortable with that kind of behaviour. You probably really despise her and her treatment--but the pattern as an abused child is to turn it in on yourself. Push it back out and put it where it belongs--with and on the person that is being abusive, not on you.

:hug:

[smirkymonkey]

135. Thank you!

That makes a lot of sense - I am just waking up to the fact that I am so careful not to offend people who treat me like dirt. I keep asking myself why I am putting up with it - your explanation has helped me to see that I need to stop putting the feelings of abusive people ahead of my own well being. :hug:

[bliss_eternal]

137. For me, it took

thinking about things in a different way. I asked myself, if someone that I was friends with treated me this way--would I still consider them a friend? Why should someone be immune to treating me well because they were a 'blood relative'?

Much of what I said to you helped me a great deal to deal with the guilt of seperating myself.

I'm so glad you think it may be helpful for you! :hug:

[Orsino]

20. Depends upon the crime and the atonement.

Perhaps only the opinion of the abused matters.

[Rabrrrrrr]

22. There are no unforgivable acts

If there were, there would be no hope for humanity.

Now, whether they SHOULD be forgiven by those they abused - that's up to the abused to decide, and only when they are ready, if they ever are. We certainly cannot force the issue - might take them five years, might take them fifty, they might never decide to do it.

But forgiveness can often be an essential and profound step in the healing process, and a way to let go of all the pain. I've seen it do amazing things in people. But only when they are ready.

[bliss_eternal]

31. Good point--

when they are ready. Don't know about you, but I've seen some absolute messes made of people that denied their true feelings and professed forgiveness, when their souls and spirits were still mourning. Really not a good thing at all.

Too many outside of survivors try to tell them to 'let things go'...sometimes the pressure is so great,they do so prematurely.

[philosophie_en_rose]

111. There are unforgiveable acts.

A rational person that makes a choice to hurt someone in a way that can never be fixed, that chooses to do so again and again, and that never makes a choice to stop should not be forgiven.

There are people in the world that like the power of inflicting pain on others. They should not be forgiven until they make the choice to stop.

Forgiving anyone that does not choose to make a change in their lives simply enables their behavior.

Disconnecting with people that are unhealthy is not the same as forgiveness. Accepting that something happened and moving on isn't the same as forgiveness.

[Rabrrrrrr]

113. How does forgiveness enable a behavior?

I think you might be misunderstanding what forgiveness means.

I can forgive someone while at the same time locking them away in prison for the rest of their life in order protect society. I can forgive someone for their behavior in stealing all my money, while still suing them to get it back. It seems, from this post and the one you posted just above to my other post, that you think forgiveness means saying "Everything's okay, please be part of society and part of my life".

I can even forgive someone, as I posted above, without ever telling them or associating myself with them.

Forgiveness has no relational componenet - reconciliation does.

My hope is that in all our relationships, and in all the wrongs exacted against us, that we would be able to reach reconciliation - but I say that with the understanding that some wrongs, esp. like physical and mental abuse, rape, and perhaps some other things, have little likelihood, and that's understandable and okay.

[graywarrior]

25. I think society should not be forgiven

This is generational and has been accepted for centuries. Before it can be forgiven, it has to be understood. Before it's understood, it has to be recognized.

My dad was an emotional abuser to me and a physical abuser to my bro and mother. When I think back to his parents, I can see why. They were brutal, and the stories they told from the old country were even more brutal.

So, recognition, understanding, treatment. They have to forgive themselves. We just have to accept that they are sick.

[bliss_eternal]

29. Knowing they are sick--

do you choose to relate to them now? (if I may ask--if too personal I understand)...

I agree that this is generational and it must be understood and recognized.

[graywarrior]

49. I cannot relate to them, but I see the results of abuse continue

down the family line. My bro is very abusive to his kids, his wife, but mostly to himself. He hates himself with such passion. I recognize that in myself, but I chose another path, but only after years of self medication and living like an underachiever.

My bro has been among the missing for over a year now. He does this periodically. He may be in jail, he may be dead. For some strange reason, he idolized the abusiveness my father directed at him. He treats his kids the same way. I just made amends with my sister, who is a born again fundy: another form of self abuse, in my opinion.

Both my parents died very young as a result of abuse. All my nieces and nephews are so messed up I can't even talk to them without wanting to run away and vomit. Their kids are even more messed up. It gets worse with each generation. I can touch the denial, it is that thick. No doubt there is sexual abuse, if not physically, at least verbally, tho I have no proof. Tis why I distance myself from my entire family. They believe I am the weirdo. So be it.

[bliss_eternal]

59. graywarrior

I appreciate your sharing this. You've helped me with an important decision--thank you.

I know I don't have to say this, but want to anyway--you're not the weirdo. It's sad that we live in a world where dysfunction is encouraged and nurtured in so many ways.

Good for you for distancing yourself from them.

[graywarrior]

66. Helps me that I could be of help.

I kinda know I'm not the weirdo. I'm an orphan with a shitload of nutty relatives.

[bliss_eternal]

72. Ultimately--

it's their loss. They are the one's missing out, by not being healthy enough to participate in your life. Too bad for them.

[Misunderestimator]

30. Some should be forgiven... if they change.

And especially if they show remorse. I forgave my father a long time ago. My second brother, another story. I absolutely agree that abuse stays an influence in one's life, not just for many years, but forever. How it remains an influence is different for everyone. As for not having children... everyone handles the influence of their childhood experience differently. To simply assume that the pattern repeats in the abused child grown up, is not fair to anyone, especially when they are able to overcome such abuse through therapy, self-reflection and forgiveness.

The abuse of a child should never be accepted, but forgiveness is a very healing thing for all sides.

[DS1]

32. Society shouldn't forgive them before the child in question

and some child abuse amounts to torture far far worse than DU is apparently to forgive someone like Lynndie England for doing against grown men.

Everything is subject to the crime.

[GirlinContempt]

57. Society is incapable of forgiving

IMO

[DS1]

84. Mine too n/t

[William Bloode]

34. Depends i reckon.

I was abused both physically and mentally by my mother growing up. I don't blame her. My real dad was an abusive prick, who also kidnapped my sister and impregnated her when i was 2-3. I now have a niece who is my sister to. Now i understand my moms anger in retrospect and love(always loved her) and forgive her. My dad now, lets just say when the fucker died i was glad.

Mom on the other hand stuck it out, worked very long hours to keep us up, made sure i was well fed and clothed, i just had to take a beating once and awhile. At least she did her best, so i don't fault her....much.

I would not have tolerated being removed from the home. That was tried, and i just kept running away and hiding till they could legally hold me no more.

[bliss_eternal]

60. William Bloode

:hug: I'm very sorry. It sounds like you've been through hell and back.

[William Bloode]

87. Yeah my early life sucked.

Add to it being sexually abused, and you get the messed up freak i am today.

I just was delt a bad hand in life, no use to complain really. I just do the best with the hand i was delt.

Thanks :hug:

[bliss_eternal]

88. So sorry--

you went through all of that. It's horrible and inexcusable. You complain all you want. You are among friends here--
I'm honored you feel safe enough with all of us to share such personal things. Thank you for your honesty.
:hi: :grouphug:

[William Bloode]

89. In the last few years,

I have just been able to say or admit these things, and i am 38. It has made for a much more peaceful mind. I am just now beginning to let go of the loads of fear, and fury i had accumulated in life.

Early on i was a real mess, and not a very nice person. I have still got quite a few deep seeded bad problems, and attitudes. But now i am very aware of my failings and am working trying to improve them.

Yes i love D.U.. It is the courage i have seen from others here who have admitted similar details about themselves that make me feel comfortable doing the same.

Thank you for your concern.

[Deja Q]

37. Only those victimized by such monsters should have their answers considerd

It's as simple as that.

[BlueIris]

38. For once, we agree.

:-)

[NashVegas]

39. It's Up to the Abused

An abuser who is genuinely remorseful does need to be forgiven, but mostly they need to forgive themselves. As someone who put up with chronic abuse (verbal, physical violence), I see my chief business as attending to my own healing. There's a lot of truth in your post in #26. Being pressured to do the 'shiny happy' thing is not genuine forgiveness, it's being manipulated into an expression you don't feel. I would like to forgive, I'm just not there yet.


My way of stopping the cycle was to not have children, not start a family of my own. Now that I finally have something to give and think I can do it without being abusive, I wish like hell I weren't alone, but have no regrets about making the decisions I did, when I did.

[bliss_eternal]

62. Thank you

for your kind words regarding my prior post. I've seen those that think they are 'healed' because they say so, yet they are still living in a way that is not conducive to their healing (i.e. relating to the abusers despite having unresolved feelings toward them). Unless someone says they acknowledge and/or are sorry for what was done, I don't understand how someone can 'hang out with them' and pretend nothing is wrong. I feel that is a fertile ground for anger, resentment and bitterness. None of these things would allow a person to be emotionally healthy or ultimately heal.

Stopping the cycle is so important. Good for you for doing so. I get sick of people that don't understand this cycle calling those that 'choose' to remain childless 'selfish.'

I understand the feeling of being alone and kind of wishing maybe things were different. I've found that family can come in so many forms--they don't always have to be related to you to become your family.

[NashVegas]

68. Aye

I have an adopted family, and they are the epitome of what most people would call a "good family." It's a joy to enter a home where people have no difficulty expressing to someone that they think that person is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

[bliss_eternal]

71. I LOVE that!

Quote:
It's a joy to enter a home where people have no difficulty expressing to someone that they think that person is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

This is also my gauge for relationships. I want to be with people that are joyous and happy to see me! NOT those that act like it's a chore or the last thing they want to do is be with you. My husband used to try to call his brothers all the time, only to get them grunting responses to him on the other end--completely unengaged in the conversation. Completely unaffected by the fact that he gave enough of a damn to call at all. He no longer bothers to call them.

Life's too short to spend in the presence of people that don't recognize our innate fabulousness! LOL!

[bertha katzenengel]

41. 1. It's up to the adult child - no one can coerce forgiveness, and it's

wrong to try. It's even more wrong to tell a child who hasn't grown up yet that s/he must forgive.

2. IMO it's up to society to try child abusers, give them their due punishment, and then leave them alone as long as they stay away from and don't try to hurt any other children.

That said: this survivor has forgiven them all. It's not easy - I have to re-forgive from time to time.

[bliss_eternal]

63. It's interesting you bring this up...

Quote:
It's even more wrong to tell a child who hasn't grown up yet that s/he must forgive.

Do you feel that families that do this are equally guilty of abuse by encouraging the child to do so? Even in cases of the adult child--telling them to 'get over it' or 'honor your parents' etc.? Isn't this in a way, perpetuating the abuse in a different form?

[bertha katzenengel]

85. Indeed it is.

It's like making a child say "I'm sorry" (of course on a much larger scale). The kid probably isn't sorry he kicked his brother in the teeth. The child will come to regret it on his own, but probably not instantly - which is when the parent is standing there, demanding an apology to brother. (I could go on and on about that.)

It's not abuse as bad as beating or molestation or systematic emotional abuse. But it is wrong to try to make a child do something he doesn't want to do, let alone feel something he cannot feel. It builds resentment and just adds to the shit the child has to get over.

[Doctor_J]

42. Forgiven by God? Yes. By society? No.

Sorry.

[bliss_eternal]

64. No need

to be sorry. Everyone's just offering their perspectives here--all are appreciated. :hi: I appreciate your honesty.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

43. Speaking strictly for myself, I had come from a space of forgiveness

with my mother for decades...literally decades. I had wanted to resolve my issues out of love rather than resentment.

However, in 92 I moved home when my father went blind and became infirm. I moved home because of my fear that she would physically and mentally abuse him (he did NOT want to be institutionalized) and she would have were I not there to intervene.

I tolerated it well for the sake of my father. When he died, she began having health issues and being hospitalized several times and I stayed on with her. Over the years there has been a huge cost to me in who I became after having made a break at 18. I thought I was strong enough to tolerate it until I reached a point where I realized I wasn't.
In many ways, I've punished myself for tolerating her cruelty to me.

[bliss_eternal]

69. nothingshocksme--

I commend you for trying to be there for your father. I'm sure in his final days he was grateful for your presence and intervention.

It sounds like you acted out of the best intentions. It's so hard to NOT get sucked back into the cycle of allowing ourselves to be revictimized, especially when trying to be present for one that was ill. Please try to not beat yourself up for that. I'm sure you did the best you could under the circumstances. :hug: You need all your own good energy--be good to yourself.

Your post brings up an interesting question though. Is the adult child ever really at a place where they are strong enough to be around those that inflicted the abuse? Is there such a thing--strong enough?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

82. regarding your question

"Is the adult child ever really at a place where they are strong enough to be around those that inflicted the abuse? Is there such a thing--strong enough?"


Again I can only speak for myself.


When I moved home, I had investments and the proceeds from the sale of a condo. I didn't have to be there financially. I had to be there for the welfare of my father. We had no idea how long he'd linger in his condition which was completely helpless. He was blind, used a wheelchair, was missing a leg...needed to be fed, changed (he was incontinent of both urine and feces) shaved, transferred from bed to wheelchair and had mentally deteriorated from the ill effects of a brain injury (resulting from an auto accident.) With all these problems, his heart was strong. He lingered like that for five years until a stroke made him (hard to imagine) worse..but my parents were middle class and medical care is expensive. They would have lost their home and their investments were he in a nursing home for all that time. My care was free...nursing care is costly (and was even then.)

Back then when she was cruel and abusive, I was protecting him not myself. Somehow that was easier.

Unfortunately, to get away from my new found loss of freedom I gambled...for fun back then as an escape. Following his death...she began to get sick all the time and I continued to gamble..this time literally gambling myself into being broke..only by being financially dependent could I justify staying with someone who terrorized me as a child and continued to try to as an adult...unfortunately, I put myself in the weaker position by doing that. That gave her power over me and she wielded it much as she did when I was a child...via threats (that could seriously harm me) whenever anything made her unhappy or when she could not control.

There's been a HUGE cost to me.

The point is:

When you swallow poison, you either get killed or develop an immunity to it. I nearly got killed.

When you THINK that is love, you will allow cruelty, control and the self serving needs of others to FEEL like love.

AND if you can stand strong and not let them get away with it, which I often did, it fools you into thinking you will always be that strong until one day you are surprised when you fold in the face of it...when the feelings evoked by it aren't of an adult woman being terrorized by a tyrant, but of a person in an adult's body being just as frozen by the tyranny as you were when you were 4...or 10....0r 16.

SO the answer as near as I can see, is that you can if you draw boundaries, call their bluff and never do anything to leave yourself in a weaker more vulnerable position around someone like that..otherwise...no.

For the record..my mother is in complete denial about herself and has never admitted her abuse and certainly never apologized. After my father died, she did express remorse for how she had treated him...but it wasn't true remorse. She was looking for sympathy and looking for someone to tell her she wasn't "all that bad."

[bliss_eternal]

95. nothingschocksme--

sorry my response has been so late in return. I wanted to take my time with responding--as you have shared so much so openly here and it means a great deal to me that you did. I couldn't just toss off a casual response.

Anyway, you are an amazing person. Seriously. You put yourself at risk to care for your father and to protect him. That was at a personal sacrifice of yourself--and after he was gone,...I can see how after it was so hard and you had trouble with gambling, etc.

I'm very sorry that she, your mother has never acknowledged what she did to you or your father. I am hoping that you are in a better place now, are safe and not in a position where she is hurting you or taking you back to former times, so to speak.

I happen to share your view--that one that has been abused probably can't be around those that abused them, or those that are part of the system of dysfunction, without sacrificing their own health and well being. I've learned from experience, it just isn't a possibility, at least not for me.

[Fox Mulder]

45. In my case, absolutely not.

That's all I'm going to say about that.

[bliss_eternal]

70. Thanks

for sharing that much. Your input is appreciated.

[Mutley]

46. It's a difficult question.

Many abusers were once abused themselves, and in that way their behavior is partially not their fault. But on the other hand, adults are expected to know right from wrong, and their past doesn't matter when it comes to their own children (family members, neighbors, etc). They should know to do the right thing and either not have kids, or be extremely careful not to continue the cycle of abuse.

I suppose as far as being forgiven it should be on an individual basis. If someone is ready to forgive his/her abuser than that is wonderful. But I would never judge someone who just couldn't forgive. Forgiven in society, I don't know. I suppose it depends on the nature of the crime and how the victim feels about it.

Like I said: difficult question -- something to ponder.

[khashka]

47. There is a difference between forgiving and forgetting

We must learn to forgive if we aspire to be moral beings.

But we must never forget - we must be sure no other child suffers.

Sadly, those who are abused often end up abusing. It takes strength to escape that cycle.


Should children forgive their parents? Yes. I've known many people who were badly abused who grew up to be wonderful people - and that always was based on that moment of forgiveness. Not forgetting it or pretending it didn't happen, but finding it in their heart to forgive.

Society - I don't think forgiveness comes into it. It's an entirely practical matter - we have to protect children.



Khash.

[politicat]

50. Withholding forgiveness often hurts the withholder more than transgressor

It took me a long time to learn that, but the anger I held towards my father hurt me more than it hurt him. He didn't care that I hadn't forgiven him, and until I forgave him for being too stupid and weak and jealous and un-self-controlled to get the help he needed to stop being hateful and hurtful, the only person who was affected by my lack of forgiveness was me.

Once I managed to realize that I did have to forgive him so I could cut him out of my life, I was able to, and to move out of the dark place I'd lived in for so long as the adult child of an abusive parent.

It took me forgiving him to remove his influence, so for me, it was absolutely necessary to forgive him so that I could become a complete, whole, recovered person. Forgiving him doesn't mean I trust him, doesn't mean I care what happens to him, doesn't mean I want him in my life. What it means to me is accepting his inability to behave appropriately and effectively, and moving past that.

[bliss_eternal]

73. Interesting post

with great points made for forgiveness--thank you so much for sharing your perspective. I think you are correct in that it is about the survivor, not the abuser. Just because you forgive doesn't mean you decide to 'hang out and have a beer together.' You are ultimately freeing yourself of the energy...

[Nikia]

51. It would mean a lot if abusers and their enablers admitted they were wrong

And said that they were sorry. Even if in their circumstances they were messed up at the time, they should still apologize. Many abused children, even as adults, still have trouble accepting that they were not responsible for the abuse. They grew up thinking that if they were somehow better that their parents would love them enough not to hurt them or allow them to be hurt. Even though, as adults, they may know better intellectually, strong childhood beliefs and feelings often stick with them. An abusive parent or enabler denying, minimizing, or excusing their actions or saying that the child should just forget about what happened is not helping their child get past their self defeating feelings. I think that is more important to being worthy of forgiveness than any other action.
It is all fine and good if a formerly abusive parent has stopped their negative actions and tries to act like a supportive normal parent later in life, but admitting their actions and admitting that it was their fault, not the child's, is more important than any present emotional or financial generosity.

[bliss_eternal]

74. I agree that it would

mean a lot--

What sucks is, most just aren't capable.

It's so sad to me that ultimately in most instances the adult child has to find a way to make peace with all of it on their own--with nothing from the abuser, because most won't admit it happened, much less apologize for doing so. I've heard of a few rare instances of someone finding religion or being on their death bed and suddenly apologizing--but again it seems quite rare.

Sucks though. The survivor has more than their fair share of work in this life, just surviving living with such insanity and turmoil. On top of it, they frequently have to gut their lives to heal the damage that was done. It bothers me that it's all on them...

[YellowRubberDuckie]

55. As a child who has an abusive mother...

There is always something keeping me from relaly being close to her. I think I will forgive her, but I will never forget.
Duckie

[bliss_eternal]

76. Duckie--

:hug:

[djeseru]

61. No, I can never forgive him.

Even though it's been nearly 30 years, I can't. And he never wanted anymore to do with me afterwards anyway. My mother was silent and did nothing. Forgiving her has been on my list for a few years now, and I can't seem to get to that point yet. I still get the impression she doesn't care.

I've been busy taking care of myself here these past few years and I don't think I've done too badly.

[bliss_eternal]

90. djeseru--

I bet you've done a great job (taking care of yourself)--good for you! I'm very sorry for the loss of your family. I know it isn't easy to walk away from, but it sounds like it is for the best.

It makes me angry and sad that your parents can't even acknowledge how they've hurt you... :hug:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

67. I don't really understand anymore just what forgiveness is

If it is a magical "it never happened" state, then no. That would be foolish.

There are shades of abuse, and there are reasons for abuse. Perhaps I might understand if not forgive, and build a relationship upon the understanding.

[NashVegas]

75. The Funny Thing About Reasons For Abuse

For 20+ years I looked for reasons, I looked for understanding.

When I finally had the backbone to confront my former abuser, he deeply, sincerely apologized, but had no answer when he was asked why he thought his actions were okay. And in that moment, the reasons why longer mattered. Trying to bring logic into an emotional issue isn't necessarily going to solve anything.

You need not build a relationship on an understanding of what happened in the past. If you wish to build or rebuild, base it firmly on the present.

[bliss_eternal]

92. Wow--

it's great you got an apology--that's amazing actually. I'm glad you got that much.

But I totally understand what you are saying about understanding and getting answers to the 'whys' that plague one for all the years they suffer. In the grande scheme of things, there probably would never be an answer to that question that would make any sense or make up for anything...

[bliss_eternal]

91. a magical state

of it never happened--that made me laugh out loud. Oddly, story after story it seems that is what perpertrators of abuse expect from their victims--some insane magical, light, fluffy cloud, airy fairy, la la land of it just wasn't that bad.

That bothers me...

[UncleSepp]

81. Forgiving is not forgetting, or even accepting, so yes

Forgiving is letting go the need to fear, to hate, to be angry at a person for what they have done. Forgiveness is opening our minds and hearts to the humanity of the person who has hurt us, and allowing that person to be more than their actions toward us. That allows us to step outside of our fear, our hate, and our anger, and allows us to be more than victims. In that sense, I think forgiveness is important for the abused child as much as for the abuser, if not more so. Forgiveness is a way to say "it's over now".

Forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting the fear that went before, or the anger. Forgiveness doesn't mean dismissing the wrong. It is accepting the past as being the past that it was, and opening up the present to be the seed of the future that can be.

[Wapsie B]

83. Exactly.

Forgiveness does not condone the action. It's a necessary step to the grieving process, to let go of the anger and rage one has inside at the person who wronged them. If you can't forgive they'll just keep on hurting you.

[I Have A Dream]

86. I think that it is best for the child if he/she is able to forgive...

the abuser. Forgiveness is a big part of the healing process, and it also releases the control that the person still holds over you. There's much energy that goes into holding onto the negative feelings.

However, I really believe that forgiveness has nothing to do with continuing a relationship with the person. You can forgive a person and still make the decision to not have the person in your life anymore.

Interestingly, my situation is where my mother did something to me once over 40 years ago (and, in my opinion, the offense was not at all serious), and she will not forgive herself. It hurts me to see her beat herself up over something that caused me no trauma. I've told her, but I can't force her to forgive herself. Maybe she feels that she's less likely to do something like that again if she doesn't forgive herself.

[bliss_eternal]

93. I Have A Dream--

I'm sorry to hear of the way your mother is keeping herself on the hook--sounds tough on both of you. :hug: I hope that in time she is able to move past this.

There've been some really interesting things said on this thread in regard to the energy of forgiveness--very profound things. I'm really grateful for all the responses on this and the thoughtful posts others have written.

[RevCheesehead]

94. I believe that anyone who seeks forgiveness should receive it.*

* I am, of course, bound by my vocation to believe that forgiveness is available to any who humbly repent (literally, to turn around) and sin no more.

However, to forgive someone who has wronged you takes a tremendous amount of work and effort. Some people find it impossible to do so - and I can certainly understand why they feel that way.

Forgiveness is NOT the same as excusing previous behavior. In reality, forgiveness is about what happens within our own souls. Ultimately, we have to ask ourselves "do I want to live in hatred the rest of my life? Or can I seek healing and move on?"

I do not say this lightly. I have had to work very, very hard to be able to forgive people who deeply wounded me. This included forgiving the man who murdered my best friend 14 years ago. Some people I have not yet forgiven... but I am working on it, and moving in the right direction.

I would also like to remind everyone that forgiveness is rarely, if ever, instantaneous. It takes a great deal of time, and intentional work on the part of the "forgiverer." But ultimately, the reward of living a peace-filled life makes the time and effort worth it.

[bliss_eternal]

96. Hi Rev

thank you for this.

:yourock:

Seriously, it pains me when I think back to churches I used to attend. Church ministry that would tell those that were molested, and sometimes clinically depressed as a result of the years of abuse they endured, that they just had to let go of the pain and believe that Christ could restore them--immediately. I watched women be 'belittled' by clergy and in ways abused all over again by them--because they were unable to somehow 'instantly' be healed of their immense pain. Seeing people that obviously needed love and compassion being treated this way IN CHURCH didn't help my own diminishing trust in religion, church or the people one finds there.

One woman literally cried through a smile she attempted to plant on her face. She obviously wasn't at a point to forgive and was still mourning so much--but was told her faith was weak if she didn't 'stop taking her meds' she was prescribed and immediately 'act like' a healed person. They practically demanded she 'be healed immediately.'

(I saw some of this when going to that church--some of the rest was shared with me later, after we both left and ran into one another).

[RevCheesehead]

97. Clearly, the blame lies with the clergy.

Lazy assholes, didn't want to do any of the hard work, and tried to take the easy way out. :grr:

Have you ever seen "Leap of Faith"? I love it for many reasons.. but the thing I'm remembering is when Steve Martin is asked what to do if someone who is really sick comes to them for healing. They were told to keep the really sick ones away from the front. But just in case, they could always fall back on "if you aren't healed, then your faith isn't strong enough."

I've got a great couple of books about Clergy abuse and Spiritual abuse. However, I'm at Mom & Dad's right now. Remind me later in the week, and I'll send the titles of the books to you. They really opened my eyes to the kinds of things people have gone thru, in the name of religion.

[bliss_eternal]

98. I'll do that,

they sound like interesting books! Thanks!

I've seen a few friends go from abuse at home, to being abused in church-either joining a congregation that was dysfunctional, or getting sucked into cult like churches.

I would really be interested in finding out how frequently one that is abused by their family of origin, end up in abusive 'religious' situations. How many just trade one form for another? It would be interesting, if any studies like this existed...

[Rabrrrrrr]

114. A minister friend offered this great prayer for forgiveness, which I love:

"God, I know I'm supposed to forgive this person, but right now I can't - so I'm leaving it up to you to forgive them. And when I'm ready, I'll join you."

[bliss_eternal]

118. I LOVE that--

thanks so much for sharing it! :thumbsup:

[neweurope]

99. Good many NOs here -

I've been abused and say yes. Not necessarily by the abused; if they cannot find it in them that's understandable. But by everybody else - yes.

Every religion known to me preaches forgiveness. There's nothing god cannot forgive, if I remember correctly, and who are we to insist on vindictiveness? It's also the clever thing to do :)

--------------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[barb162]

105. If the children want to forgive, that's up to them.

I'd be more concerned about good therapy for the children than whether they forgive the abusers

[neweurope]

107. Certainly, I said "forgiven, but not necessarily by the abused"

---------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[raptor_rider]

108. My daughter's father

did something to her during a "supervised" visit, his mother being the "supervisor" at her house. My daughter was 8 months old and when she was dropped off at the house after the visit, she was covered with red welts, nail gouges and scratches. This little girl that never hung on to you when you carried her, clung to my mom for dear life. Pictures were taken, plus video. I took her to the Urgent Care Center and head to toe x-rays were taken and it was considered "Inconclusive" by the doctor there that it was abuse. What could a 8 month old do to get these marks on her body like that? She was only crawling at that stage. It went to court and of course they denied it and was not considered abuse in court, however, he never saw her again. This little girl did not trust a man besides my dad for 3 years. She would not let her uncles hold her, she would freak out. She still has a PTSD with it to this day if a man grabs her arm or tries to restrain her.
She wasn't told anything about it until she started asking about a month ago about her birth father (she is 8.) She never wants to meet him because of this and for the fact that he has never even tried anything to try to get visitation to see her.
She is happy with the man I married, a man that is going to adopt her after we are married 2 years (our state say we have to be married 2 years before we go through the process of adoption.) She has been calling him dad since before the wedding.

[bliss_eternal]

120. raptor_rider--

that's awful. I'm so sorry your daughter experienced this. :hug:

As you said, honestly there is nothing any child, much less an 8 mo. old could do to 'deserve' or warrant such treatment. This is the myth of abusers--that the child is/was bad and was entitled to such treatment. It's just bs coming from the mind of sick, emotionally disturbed people that don't have the emotional maturity to admit they know zip about parenting.

I'm so glad your daughter has a positive male role model in her life now.

[El Fuego]

116. Maybe after they've been shot in the head

[skygazer]

119. I think that's wholly up to the parties involved

And I don't think there's any blanket answer for the question. Like anything else in life, each case is different and each person's reaction and decision will be different. But it's not for me to say whether forgiveness is in order - that's for the victim to decide.

[LisaL]

122. Exactly. First of all, it's not our place to forgive someone else

for abusing their child. And WTF does "should be forgiven" means?
If the child decides to forgive his/her parents or not, it's his/her business, not ours. And there is no "should be" about it.

[bliss_eternal]

126. It was merely the way

I worded the question, nothing more or less--a question to obtain opinions on the issue.

Quote:
And WTF does "should be forgiven" means?

[Ladyhawk]

123. That's something I've wondered about a lot.

My father never asked for forgiveness. What he did was probably on the "borderline" of being legally abusive. For me it wasn't borderline. I was an extra sensitive child that didn't need spanking, let alone beatings with a belt--often for no good reason. I knew he wouldn't "get it" if I ever brought up the subject, so I kept it to myself. He's been dead for many years now, but I still suffer from the loveless, abusive relationship we had.

I guess for me it's not so much a matter of forgiveness as moving on. I have to do the best I can with who I am. Who I am is partially derived from how my father treated me. I'm the one who has to deal with it. I've chosen to try to grow. I may never overcome some of the effects, but I will certainly try.

I was also sexually abused multiple times by a member of our fundy church. In my opinion, fundamentalism led directly to the abuse in both instances. My father used "spare the rod; spoil the chlid" as an excuse for cruelty. The molester used the church as a haven. Fundy churches teach kids to respect and obey adults. Think how confusing this is when the adult wants to have sexual relations with the child.

As for forgiveness... :shrug: As far as I'm concerned the point it moot. I can either try to grow beyond what happened or I can stagnate. Forgiving my dead father or the molester (who knows where he is) isn't going to heal me. In fact, I've learned that "forgiveness" as taught by the church can set one up for more abuse. No thanks. I will try not to let what happened consumed me, but I sure as hell won't ever forget.

[bliss_eternal]

129. I agree with you

forgiveness as the church teaches it can set one up for more abuse. It's great that you see that--and I am SO sorry about the sexual abuse, and your father's abuse. :hug:

I had a church going relative that insisted in telling me that my mother loved me--which sent a horrible message, that love equalled pain. That I was never going to be good enough for someone that 'loved me' and love meant being hurt emotionally and physically.Being 'born again' she also subscribed to the whole 'honour thy father and mother' stuff--so no matter what kind of hell I was enduring that did not matter. Probably part of the reason this same relative takes as much shit as she does from her own mother. Proving your point that religion can set one up for more abuse.

She even had the audacity to give me scriptures and told me to be 'better' for my mother... You see, I had the kind of mother that told everyone around us something very different than what was really going on. She presented one persona to the world and her relatives, and was someone else with me, behind closed doors. So the religious relative was convinced if I was just 'better' somehow or 'more godly' I suppose--that I could make my mother happier.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

124. I can only speak for myself...

There was abuse in my family, and I have forgiven those responsible. I would never leave any kid of mine alone with someone that I knew had victimized a child. Never.

So I guess there's a limit to my forgiveness...It's called common sense.

[bliss_eternal]

128. I like the way you put that--

unfortunately common sense isn't that common. Good for you for utilizing it and keeping your kids away from people like that.

Thank you for sharing your perspective on this--I appreciate it!

[unsavedtrash]

125. no

[Rabrrrrrr]

130. One can be forgiven and still serve a harsh sentence.

I'm seeing a lot of posts here that seem to misunderstand forgiveness as meaning "everything is okay, please be a close part of my life". That's not what forgiveness is at all.

Forgiveness also does not mean that one says "what happened is okay" or "I accept your behavior".

I posted upthread a ways, that one can forgive someone at the same as one is locking them away for the rest of their life. One can forgive someone, and still make sure never to see or be near that person ever again.

One can even forgive the dead.

Forgiveness is saying "I am no longer going to expend energy hating/despising/wishing death on you for what you did/that event/whatever; what you did was a mistake/wrong/evil, it should not have happened, but it did and now I have better things to expend energy on."

But it doesn't mean you have to invite the person to come live with you, nor even that you have any desire to have a relationship with them, nor that you won't try to put them in jail for it.

[SKKY]

131. Child abusers, perhaps. Child molesters, never.

I think your outlook changed with parenthood- and I know mine certainly has.

[Rabrrrrrr]

133. Isn't one of the hallmarks of liberal thinking that all people are worthy

of compassion and understanding?

I'm not sure how saying that child molestors are never forgivable is any different than saying homosexuals are never forgivable, or that thiefs are never forgivable, or that deserters are never forgivable, or that a woman who had an abortion is never forgivable, or that divorce is never forgivable, etc.

I like to think that one of the highest marks of liberals is that we believe that all people are failable, and thus all people are worth equal consideration as fellow human beings, no matter their social status, race, gender, sexuality, crimes, behaviors, etc.

:shrug:

[SKKY]

140. You're absolutely right Rabrrrr. 100%. But it's one of the internal...

...conflicts I have. I don't know what the line is, and I don't know where it's drawn. But to me, in my mind, there is a huge difference between someone who abuses (Broad definition with lots of room for maneuvering) a child, or someone who sexually molests a child. Perhaps I'm not as liberal as I would like to believe- I also believe in the death penalty. I just know what I know.

[noonwitch]

134. It's up to the victims whether they want to forgive

Speaking from experience, there does come a time when you have to forgive on an individual level so that you can move on with your life, and stop thinking of yourself as a victim. Especially if the abuser has made positive changes in his or her life.

My father was never abusive to me, although he hit my siblings at times. He was an active alcoholic when I was a kid. We've forgiven him by now. It helped us to do so when he stopped drinking almost 10 years ago.

I was abused by other relatives in a different way. The relatives involved are deceased. It is impossible for me to hate them now-both of their lives came to tragic premature ends-one committed suicide and the other died a prolonged and painful death from kidney cancer. When my uncle died from cancer, I did forgive him prior to his death and spent some time with him and with his kids before he died, and have always been there to reach out to his children since his death. I figure that some day, his daughter will want to talk to me about her own relationship with her father.

I am having problems forgiving my mother, because she never owns up to anything. She looks the other way about the past, pretends nothing bad ever happened unless our dad was responsible (they are divorced now), and expects us to always see her as a victim and feel sorry for her. It gets really aggravating after a while. I have gotten to the point where I don't play into it anymore, and don't let her try to stir up problems between my siblings and I.

I don't think society really has a role in the forgiveness angle, as society at large is not the victim of the abuse. The role for society is more to support the child, to set examples of how to properly behave in public and how to treat other people with respect and love, and to determine, through their representatives and the political system, how to best intervene with abused children and their families.

[malmapus]

136. Depends on the extent

I dunno, my dad would get mad easily when I was growing up and, well, liked to take the belt to me. I figured it was just growing up in the rural south heh. Happened all the way through High School too till I decided I had enough one day when he raised his fist I shouted "NO" and took him down (tripped him and threw him to the floor and held him down), till I realized what I did and let go of him. Just got a verbal scolding about "don't you dare raise your fist to me in my house" verbal scolding, but that was the last time he ever tried anything like that with me again.

It took me till my mid 20s to come to terms and forgive him. So yeah, if it's like that I think forgiveness is due because I know that his dad was rough on him when he was growing up.

I am a father now myself with a wonderful two year old daughter who is the world to me. With my childhood and my military service experience, I kind of have a double whammy on me. I'm the first to admit that I have a quick temper at times. But I still don't let it out on my daughter, I'm determined that the cycle dies.

[Chemical Bill]

139. Forgiveness is for the benefit of the forgiver.

By that I mean that I had to forgive my parents for my own state of mind and well being. In fact, they don't even have to know. They do know, but if they were dead I could still benefit from forgiving them. Louie Anderson (Family Feud) wrote a good book about that.

I don't think that it's up to society. Society has a responsibility to keep abuse from happening, as much as possible. That may mean counseling, separation, or incarceration. That has nothing to do with forgiving.

Bill