Flamewar starter: "Cheers" was the Last Great Sitcom.

[RandomKoolzip]

I honestly believe that. There hasn't been a show since that has matched "Cheers" in terms of wit, originality, sympathetic characters, and warmth.

"Seinfeld" was funny, but it was also cold. The show's vaunted "nothingness" could feel like a vacuum at times, especially when such (proudly) flawed people ended up learning nothing from their errors and schemes. To boot, the audience often was asked to feel empathy for characters who seemed to delight in mistreating others (call it the "Volpone" corollary).

And a sub-flamewar: I feel the show improved with the removal of Shelley Long. Kirstie Alley was perfect for the role of Rebecca Howe, and the chemistry she engendered put "Cheers" over the top in my book. By the fifth season, "Cheers" was probably the best sitcom ever: the writing had tightened up considerably, all the characters' idiosynchrasies cast in soft cement, the earthiness of the show palpable, the Algonquinesque rejoinders sharp as pickaxes. Even the shouts of "Norm!" felt right. The reruns in syndication bear this out; watching an episode this morning made me realize that there really hasn't been a show like this since, and what a loss that is for television.

So there you have it: "Cheers" was the Last Great Sitcom.

[Loonman]

1. I'm a purist

Cheers ended for me when Coach died.

[RandomKoolzip]

7. The Diane/Coach era fells like a warm-up to me.

Watching those episodes now, I see a team of writers and producers following a formula that worked in previous shows ("Taxi," for instance), but biding their time, in preparation of creating a new template, which would come with the arrival of Kirstie Alley. The show was still insanely funny (The "Manchild in Beantown" episode comes to mind), but the corn quotient of the early stuff is higher, IMO: the friction between the prim, upper class Diane and the salty, working class Sam is such a stock theatrical device, to name just one geegaw.

But that's just MO.

[Loonman]

9. I thought Woody was too contrived

Coach was a doddering old man, Woody was a Midwestern yokel-hick in the big city. Wow, what an original concept!

[GOPisEvil]

2. I have a friend in TV. He says there are two "evergreens" of

syndicated sitcoms: MASH and Cheers. They always do a rating and make money.

[RandomKoolzip]

3. MASH gets too corny and maudlin for me.

But Cheers....I will always stop and watch an episode of Cheers when it's on.

[GOPisEvil]

5. Yeah, but for everyone that doesn't like MASH, there is someone who does.

Like I said, there is always competition for MASH and Cheers because they both make money hand over fist for the local station.

Beyond the first 3 seasons of MASH...very hit or miss.

[deutsey]

13. For me, MASH started becoming hit or miss after Frank left

I liked the Charles character, but it just seemed like the show in general was losing steam when Stiers joined the cast.

[GOPisEvil]

16. I can go for that.

I liked Potter as much as I like Blake. But the show got really preachy when they let Alda start directing. Hunnicutt wasn't as strong a character as McIntyre either.

[Bunny]

23. I'll use this opportunity to weigh in on M*A*S*H.

GREAT SHOW - the first five seasons. I loved Blake, really liked Potter, but adored Frank Burns. He is just the nerd you love to hate. He had some of the best lines I've ever heard, on any show. (Larry Linville attended the prestigious Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts in London, BTW.) Here's old ferret face himself:



That show went WAY downhill when he left - Winchester was okay in his own right, as a foil to Pierce and Hunnicutt, but it just wasn't that funny anymore. And boy did it get preachy! Gadzooks, I can hardly stomach it!

Oh, and Cheers was excellent too!

[deutsey]

24. Yeah, I think they could've ended the show either right before or

right after Charles came on. Most of the shows after that became preachy with over-written dialogue.

By the way, here's a question that only purists like me may know:

Did you know that you can always tell whether an episode of MASH has Linville or Stiers in it within the first shots of the opening credits?

If the arm of the wounded soldier is dangling off the stretcher on the side of the arriving helicopter, it will be a Linville show.

If the arm is tucked beneath the blanket, it's a Stiers episode.

[underpants]

43. I'm not even going to act like I knew that

I do know about the UPC code on the Hershey bar, Hawkeye's sister AND mother (Letter Home-second or third show), and of course Hawkeye wearing a pair of converse running shoes.

[chknltl]

4. I liked that show....

but I suspect "Mash" fans may beg to differ. I liked that one as well. Apples and oranges in the comparision imo.

[RandomKoolzip]

10. I think the reason why "MASH" is so beloved by so many people

is that it tried to be something more than a sitcom. MASH aimed to be "important" and ended up being unfunny, IMO. Plus the delivery of the lines was so Ben Hecht-fast that it harkened back to the thirties instead of the fifties in which it was set.

Quibbles, though...MASH succeeded in bringing some intelligence and some humanist persepctive to television, and for that, it's a classic show. I just don't think it rated as high as comedy as "Cheers" did.

[chknltl]

26. I thought both shows had their funny moments.

My fave Cheers episode saw Shelly Long winding up going for a swim after confounding Sam for the last time. Hot lips Hoolahan shooting her foot locker in order to get a new one was equally fun too. I was never too put out by all the poignancies from Mash. They were just 2 different shows. I can say for myself that I enjoyed them equally. I also enjoy the Simpsons and Married With Children as well as Mash or Cheers. I am not a critic so I shall not argue the merits or lacks of for those additions. They served their purpose of entertaining me in that mindless way TV often does. My faves right now gravitate to "news" related shows, I've not really put much time over the last few years with sit-coms. Perhaps they REALLY aren't as good anymore. (Upon self examination here I find I must blame bushco for my fascination as of late with news shows).

[underpants]

39. MASH became too preachy for my book

I still love it but it gets to be a little much from time to time and it completely lost the funny at one point...that point would be when Klinger stopped wearing a dress.

[underpants]

40. "Cheers" profited from its time period and the ensemble movement of TV

I could go on but you all obviously are beneath my level of knowledge on this matter.

[momophile]

6. that 70s show

I count MASH as one of the all-time greats - better than Cheers. But best post-Cheers might go to That 70s show. Anyone agree? Of course, I'm from the 70s so that might be why I think this.

[RandomKoolzip]

8. I like "That 70's Show," but...

I still don't understand why the creators set the show in the 70's since all the characters act, look, and talk like 90's/00's kids. Apart from a few topical references and clothes, it could have been just a funnier version of a typical 90's sitcom.

The ensemble comedy of "That 70's Show" is very strong, though, and the writing is consistently high-quality.

[sendero]

51. I love That 70s Show..

... I agree that they are not good at keeping with 70s anacronistic verbiage, but I can get past that.

T70S is almost always extremely well written. They pack more jokes per sentence than even seems possible. The characters/casting is perfect and they work great together.

Looks like this is the last season, which I suppose is fair, since chronologically they'd be in about 1985 now :)

[Tyrone Slothrop]

11. I agree with you for the most part

I don't know that I would call it the "Last Great Sitcom", however.

Seinfeld -- while a little cold at times -- was still Great (with capital G). I think Cheers was better, given the coldness of Seinfeld -- but I take issue with the "Last" in your title.

Likewise, I think the Simpsons was a Great sitcom in its prime. However, seasons 8-current are rather hit-or-miss and have diluted its quality somewhat. Again, though, all that aside, I would argue that it is/was a Great sitcom -- certainly revolutionary and highly influential.

[RandomKoolzip]

17. I love the Simpsons, and yes, it is GREAT (all caps)...

But because it's animated, it's in a category all it's own....I think of a "sitcom" as a live action phenomenon.

Semantic piffle? Maybe. I just see "The Simpsons" as being it's own species, like a platypus: elements of sitcoms, satire, dada, etc. in cartoon form. The term "sitcom" may be too limiting for what "The Simpsons" achieved.

[Jokerman]

12. Cheers was the last great non-animated sit-com.

I'll even agree that that the show got better after Shelley Long departed but I'm a big fan of the Simpson's so I have to add the "non-animated" qualifier.

[Beaverhausen]

14. I loved Kirstie Alley on Cheers

I went to a taping once. All the girls (Kirstie, Rhea Perlman) knew their lines well but all the guys screwed theirs up and had to do retake after retake. (Ted Danson and George Wendt especially...did you even READ the script before you showed up?)

I think Will & Grace and Scrubs have their moments but I think you are right about Cheers overall.

[RandomKoolzip]

19. Will and Grace.....I must admit I'm not a fan.

It's got that "Friends"y "we're white and rich and we live in the city and we're catty" vibe to it that I can't stand. "Cheers"'s denizens were down-to-earth, working class types, more human than caricature...some of them were even physically unattractive!

[Shell Beau]

31. I love Will & Grace although it should be called

Karen & Jack!! That show keeps me rolling!! :rofl:

[Felix Mala]

41. They used the term "pole smoker" last night. My jaw dropped.

[Shell Beau]

48. I missed it last night!! They get away with a lot of stuff!!

:rofl:

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

15. WTF??11!! Excuse me, but what about a little show called MOESHA?

[RandomKoolzip]

18. I'm sorry, but "The Parkers" beats "Moesha" with sweaty fists the size

of infants.

[GOPisEvil]

20. Oh, by the way..I agree that Cheers is the last great sitcom.

There have been good ones since, but none that are great.

[RandomKoolzip]

21. But....but...what about "Caroline in the City?!"

j/k :evilgrin:

[underpants]

38. Okay that's it I've had it with all you Urkel haters out there

just because it is a spin off of "Perfect Strangers" that is no reason to be hatin' on it.

[rbnyc]

22. News Radio!

I loved that show.

:cry:

[RandomKoolzip]

28. Me too, I loved it....

But I always though NewsRadio was, like Seinfeld, a little too glib for its own good.

[dback]

25. I'd vote for it's spin-off, "Frasier"

There have been several loveable sitcoms ("Friends" "Everybody Loves Raymond"), and there have been some brilliant, biting, satirical sitcoms ("Arrested Development" "Will & Grace" "Scrubs" "Weeds" "Sex & the City" "Seinfeld").

But "Frasier"--winner of 5 consecutive Emmys for Best Comedy Series--is the exception: perfectly written, directed, and performed farce that is gut-bustingly funny, but also warm and affectionate towards its characters. It's both crisply intelligent AND human.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

27. Well...can you extend that to Frasier?

Since it is a spin off? Then I'll buy in.

[Baclava]

29. Norm is my hero

SAM : What'll you have, Norm?
NORM : Well I'm in a gambling mood, Sammy. I'll have a glass of whatever comes of whatever comes out of that tap.
SAM : Oh, Looks like beer, Norm.
NORM : Call me Mister Lucky.

SAM : Whatcha up to, Norm?
NORM : My ideal weight if I were eleven feet tall.

SAM : What's new, Norm?
NORM : Terrorists, Sam. They've taken over my stomach and they're
demanding beer.

COACH: Can I draw you a beer, Norm?
NORM : No, I know what one looks like. Just pour me one.

COACH: How's a beer sound, Norm?
NORM : I dunno. I usually finish them before they get a word in.

WOODY: Can I pour you a beer, Mr. Peterson?
NORM : A little early isn't it?
WOODY: For a beer?
NORM : No, for a stupid question.

WOODY: How's it going Mr. Peterson?
NORM : It's a dog eat dog world out there, Woody, and I'm wearing
milkbone underwear.

WOODY: What's the story, Mr. Peterson?
NORM : The Bobbsey twins go to the brewery. Let's cut to happy ending.

WOODY: Pour you a beer, Mr. Peterson?
NORM : Alright, but stop me at one.....make it one-thirty.

NORM: "Women. Can't live with 'em...........pass the beer nuts."

[underpants]

35. What's shakin' Mr.Peterson?

Two cheeks and a chin

How ya doing Mr.Peterson?
"poor"
Oh I'm sorry to hear that
(points to beertap on the way to his bar stool) "No I mean POUR!!!"

[edbermac]

30. The O'Reilly Factor

More laughs than any other show around.

[Oeditpus Rex]

32. There have been two (2) original sitcoms

in television history: "I Love Lucy" and "Fawlty Towers."

All others are imitations.

So there. :P

("Monty Python's Flying Circus" is, of course, the paragon of teevee comedy. But it cannot be included here as it was not a "sitcom.")

[DanCa]

34. Are you forgetting the classic that is dharma and greg Sarcasam

[underpants]

36. Being quite the TV watcher....I've never seen a whole Lucy

Honestly but from what I have seen I haven't missed much.

[DanCa]

37. The only one decent on the show was Fred

They should have given Fred his own show and called it "Mertz World." No one asked me though.

[Monkey see Monkey Do]

46. Somewhat off-topic, but did you hear today's Cleese news?

He's had a species of lemur named after him!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5331564

[Oeditpus Rex]

49. A lemur?

Why not a parrot? Or an 'alibut?

And it's "Minister of Silly Walks." Stoopid AP. :grr:

[DanCa]

33. Married with Children cmon it still makes me bust a gut.

Especially with sam kennison plays als old angry gaurdian angel on christmas, and the one where they kept falling off the roof.

[Felix Mala]

42. You should know James Brooks and James Burrows as well as

Les and Glen Charles. Together, these four have been responsible for The Mary Tyler Moore Show, The Bob Newhart Show, Taxi, Cheers, The Simpsons, Frazier, Friends, "Terms of Endearment," "Jerry McGuire," "Spanglish," and numerous other little films and TV events. Not a bad track record.

[Felix Mala]

44. Also, Will and Grace, Tracy Ullman Show and Newhart

[flvegan]

45. Is this a Kirstie Alley thread?

[Jamastiene]

47. Oh, now you are asking for it.

Actually, I agree with you that Cheers was a great show, but I loved "Roseanne" too much to vote for "Cheers" as Last Great sitcom. Oh yeah, and I agree with you about Shelley Long. That woman gets on my nerves. I love Kirstie Alley on top of that.

[KFC]

50. The only great sitcom: Get a Life

At least on network TV.

[mac56]

52. "Cheers" was great. Definitely in the top ten.

Although I think the Kirstie Alley era was when it eventually JTS. On edit: I think it became a little too cute for its own good.

But "the last great" sitcom? I can think of four off the top of my head since "Cheers" that were/are every bit as good.

"Newhart"
"Mad About You"
"Scrubs"
"My Name Is Earl"

And I'd include "The Simpsons" even though it's animated.