Play Armchair Adolescent Psychologist -- (Please!!)

[Sparkly]

Let's say you were called upon to advise a high-school senior girl, 17 (18 in June) and her father. The girl is having sex with a 21-year-old guy, smoking pot, and smoking cigarettes. She isn't college-bound at this time (rejected for bad academic record), but is very smart, beautiful, articulate, thoughtful, sensitive, creative. She has an out-of-control angry, controlling father who rarely lets her go out, never lets her have friends over, rarely shows affection, removed privileges to punish her until she has none left, and frequently engages in loud, emotional screaming matches with her involving pushing, throwing things, even occasional strikes, on both sides. She was allowed to have a mall job once she made honor roll this year, but still doesn't have a driver's license.

She was recently arrested for having sex with her boyfriend in a car where there were beer cans and unopened cigarettes (charged with underaged possession of both). Father went ballistic and told police to book her.

Arguments ensued, father has found a new escape route: call police whenever she's unruly. School now has a record of her as a police problem; she says police security at school follow her around.

Spring break just ended tonight. Three months until graduation, father lays down the law: no smoking, no drugs, no seeing that guy, no emotional "outbursts," or ELSE: police will be called, you could be expelled from school, and you'll be out of this house.

The question is: What would you advise the father, or the girl, if you HAD to say something?

Examples of what you might tell the father:
- Chill out, sex, cigs and pot aren't abnormal for high school seniors;
- Lay down the law and kick her out if necessary;
- She's struggling for her autonomy, there's only so much you can do anyway, so let her go;
- She needs rules and structure;
- She needs love from you, listen to her and let her know you're on her side;
- Forbid her to see the boy;
- Insist she quit smoking;
- Other....

Examples of what you might tell the girl:
- Stop smoking, doing pot, and seeing that loser;
- Don't feel like a criminal, I did much worse at your age;
- When your Dad yells at you, nod your head and be quiet;
- Find a friend you can stay with in case he kicks you out so you can finish high school;
- You need self-discipline;
- You need to know you're loved;
- You're responsible for your own decisions, and they impact you, not your father;
- Other....

I know it's the lounge, 'cause I didn't know where else to post it, but please answer seriously. Thanks in advance!!

[tuvor]

1. Might help to know your role.

Are you in some kind of authority? A family friend?

[Sparkly]

4. Oh man, I was trying so hard ... It's personal.

I am her mother.

I divorced her father because he was making me crazy. When she was in 8th grade, she was living with me but failing in school despite 504 plans for diagnosis of ADD, school meetings, daily phone calls, private psychologists, you name it.

He's a high school teacher and had just remarried a middle school teacher at a school she could attend -- they persuaded me to send her to live with them because they could hand-pick her teachers and her counselors, give her more attention than me, they were plugged into the system, etc. etc... I thought that'd be best for her and made the mistake of letting her go.

Her step-mother is admirable in many ways and has often been a good advocate for her, but her father remains a nut, driving my daughter crazy in many of the same ways he made me crazy.

Now it's three months until her graduation. All I want is for her to get through the weeks ahead, graduate from that school, and (hopefully) come live with me. I am an hour away, in a different state. If she came here now, she'd have to get a GED -- it'd not only be stressful for her, she'd have an even greater sense of "failure." But right now, she's undergoing major stress. I'm not sure what to do for her.

[tuvor]

8. Since you're asking for our advice...

I don't know what I'd tell the ex, but I'd tell your daughter you'll support her no matter what.

Sounds like you belive a lot in her, and I dunno--maybe she needs to be reminded of that?

I have no kids, so I'm pretty useless. Good luck and prayers from me.

[flying_monkeys]

2. Dad: Back off. Girl: TRY to not be too In Your Face

Dad is cracking down too hard and almost shoving girl into the behavior - - She will get over it if he chills a tad. She, on the other hand, has to hear that pushing Dad's buttons is a DUMB IDEA and she better ratchet up the grades or she won't get far...

Actually, it sounds like that advice is probably too late for these two....

[Sparkly]

20. You're right on all counts

Even when she was 3, he'd yell at her in ways that would have had ME in tears, but she'd get this "am I a woman or a mouse" look in her eye and fight back like a little tiger.

And she's become an *expert* at pushing his buttons. In fact, in many ways she's really the "adult" in their arguments. He's just bigger and has the authority with the police, etc.

[JohnKleeb]

3. Hmmmmmmm and thank you for seeking my advice

- Chill out, sex, cigs and pot aren't abnormal for high school seniors;
Thats what I would tell the dad, now I dont smoke and I regretably have not had sex.
- Find a friend you can stay with in case he kicks you out so you can finish high school; She needs a friend she can trust honestly so she can finish HS.

[Sparkly]

5. Gotta tell ya, JohnKleeb

More than once, I've read your posts and thought, "Now there's a guy I wish she'd meet up with!"

I think you volunteered for a local Virginia politician (Sonas??) one of her teachers recommended her to work for.

[JohnKleeb]

9. He was a candidate not a politican, Socas

Here in the 10th district. You mean that lol, thank you, well good luck to her.

[Sparkly]

25. Socas, that's it

Well, one of these days, maybe... ;)

[JohnKleeb]

28. Yeah I did some stuff on the day of our homecoming parade

for him and Kerry, it was a lot of fun.

[neebob]

6. Ugh! Sounds like my dad

I could think of a lot to say to him, but it probably wouldn't have any effect. I might just tell him that she's attempting to control what she can; unfortunately, it's all negative because he tries to control everything.

Then I'd tell him Uncle Karma's takin' notes, and he shouldn't be surprised when the tables get turned on him - like, for example, if he has a stroke and becomes severely disabled - and she isn't very sympathetic. And she'll probably be relieved when he dies and not cry at his funeral.

In the meantime, she'll have a series of bad relationships and struggle and feel icky for a good part of her life because he's such an asshole. Oh, and she'll have problems with authority and do all kinds of little self-defeating things by way of acting out the same stupid play with him, over and over again.

Perhaps she'll be fortunate and manage to figure it all out at some point and be more effective in life and start to feel better, but she probably won't be able to forgive him or ever feel love for him - because he chose to be King Boss Man instead of a loving, supportive father. Because he was more interested in making her do what he wants than respecting her as a person and letting her be who she is and have some autonomy.

I would tell her pretty much the same things plus there's something seriously wrong with her dad, and she should try to do well in school, stop doing self-destructive things to prove to him that he can't control everything and/or get his attention, find ways to coexist with him until she finishes college, and resist the urge to pair off to get away from him because she'll probably just pick someone who's an even bigger asshole than he is.

[Sparkly]

7. Wow.

You DO get it!!!

[neebob]

13. Uh, yeah - and I'm glad you're not offended

because I hadn't read the post where you revealed that you're her mom. That must be a really difficult position to be in. I'd be inclined to defy conventional divorced-parent wisdom and go ahead and criticize the other parent.

At least you're not modeling denial and acceptance of emotional abuse, like my mom did. I've had massive issues with her since my dad died.

Oh, and make that "find ways to coexist with him until she finishes high school." Then get her away from him and make sure she finishes college. :)

[Sparkly]

14. Thank you!! n/t

[jdots]

10. Put about 3000 miles between them

not kidding it works sometimes.

[Not_Giving_Up]

11. Is she on meds?

If she is, maybe she needs an adjustment! If not, have you considered it? I'm the mom of an ADHD/ODD/Aspie kid...and I am NOT looking forward to the teen years, although he's been doing much better for the last year. I'll PM you a good site to go to for help...they saved my butt when things were really bad.

[Sparkly]

16. No meds

beyond self-meds... She was on meds for ADD, but stimulants made her develop OCD symptoms... The side-effects weren't worth the math-test gains, and she was so fidgety on those meds she drove the teachers nuts that way. (Plus she was thin as a rail and lost weight!)

Never did figure out the "can't do it" vs. "won't do it" question. Now she insists she was NEVER ADD and/or that it doesn't exist, so it's all our fault for ever working it that way.

[Not_Giving_Up]

21. Hang in there!

My son is on Concerta, which is a stim, but he's had no adverse effects. We tried Strattera, which is a non-stim, but that was ugly!!

Hang in there mom...PM if you need to!

[Sparkly]

22. Thank you!!

By the time we got to Conerta, it was an effort just to get her to swallow them at all....

[Not_Giving_Up]

26. I understand

Luckily, mine started taking meds pretty early. He knows that if he doesn't take his pill in the morning, he's likely to get himself in trouble, so he doesn't argue.

[DS1]

12. I think the more overbearing he is, the more rebellious she will be

It's a fight that's going on, and if he thinks it's bad now, wait until she gets to college or out on her own where he isn't going to be looking over her shoulder. So she's best off working out all these vices and experimenting with life while she's still got someone around that'll back her up if she gets in trouble. But it doesn't sound like he'd agree, so when she does get out, she's gonna go nuts with all the freedom.

That's my guess, anyway. Tell the dad that he should accept that she's gonna do stuff whether he tells her not to anyway - even if it means swallowing some of his pride. That, and he sounds like a right asshole.

[neebob]

17. And what he said about going nuts with all the freedom

She's already doing a lot more than I ever dared do as a teenager, and I went hog wild in my twenties. I'm lucky I'm not dead from some of the drinking/drug binges. Plus I racked up quite a list of sexual partners in my sad subconscious quest for the love I never felt from my dad.

Now I'm 44 and will probably always be single - but you know what? I have a dream kid - a 16-year old with a lot of freedom because he never disappoints me. Proof that doing the opposite of what my dad did works. He always said my chickens would come home to roost, and I expected to have a nightmare kid - but King Boss Man was wrong.

[Sparkly]

18. I agree with you

I think adolescence is all about a struggle toward autonomy, and he hasn't allowed her that. The more she's rebelled for it, the tighter he's pulled the reigns, and now it's just nuts. When she reaches that magical birthday, she'll just go crazy with freedom without knowing what to do with it, and he'll go crazy with cutting her off from the support she needs.

I just want to know how to catch her. I'd have done the whole thing so differently than he did. I tend to spoil and indulge her and let her know I love her; she reverts to baby-ness when she's with me. She arrives here angry and sullen and pushing me away; by the time she leaves she's clingy and scared.

[Not_Giving_Up]

15. Please check out the site I sent you

I found them when my son was in first grade, and nearly had the cops called on him at school because he went apeshit on a teacher. Before them, I had no idea about 504 or anything else. If nothing else, it's a good place to go just to scream about what's going on.

[Sparkly]

24. Thanks, NGU

:hug:

[Not_Giving_Up]

27. You're welcome

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Granted, mine is younger...but he was hospitalized at the ripe old age of ten for being suicidal. You need a place to vent and be reassured..CD will do that for you.

:hug:

[Yupster]

19. Dear Sparkly

First off, I'm a dad, so I'm asnswering from that perspective.

It appears that your daughter is behaving abominably.

I'm sure her awful behaviors are causing many problems for you and her father, as well as her step-mother too - and siblings too if there are any. Her poor grades, irresponsible drinking, drug taking and sexual conduct all adds up to a very immature young woman in my opinion. This may be even more embarrassing as her dad and step mom are teachers.

My apology if I'm wrong, but it appears to my reading of your post that you are much more on her side than her father's.

So, my advice, since it was generically asked for.

First to your daughter. Your father and step mother are nice enough to let you stay with them. Your father no doubt loves you very much. If he didn't, you wouldn't be there causing him so much heartache and trouble between him and his wife. It's not common for daughters to live with their divorced dads. Most dads would rather hand you to your mom. Can you not give him any respect for that at all? Is it that hard to follow his rules for three more months? Do you have to break the law while you're living with him?

So my advice is to follow his rules, graduate from high school, get a job, move into an apartment, and then do whatever your conscience tells you to do. If that is too much to ask, move in with your mom, take a GED, and maybe she'll accept your unacceptable behavior more than your dad will. Eventually you'll run out of people to take advantage of though.

My advice to the dad -- I'm sure you're at your wits end and have probably tried everything you can think off. As a teacher, you've no doubt seen the horrible results that your daughter's embarrassing and discraceful behaviors has led to for many of her peers.

My advice is to protect your family. You must not accept illegal activity. There have been enough warnings. Illegal activities should be police matters, not yours. As far as the sex, I don't know what kind of guy would be about to graduate college and have a girlfriend barely going to graduate high school, but there's not much you can do about that. You can't choose your daughter's boyfriends. The best you can hope for here is to demand that he respects your rights, and stays away from your home.

Advice to mom - When a child is behaving this badly, it's important for the parents to work together to try to help her. This is already made difficult because of her blended family situation. Try not to make it more difficult by letting her play you off against her father. She's probably an expert at that. I'd say you have a choice. Either support her father, or have her come to you and get her GED, which is no big deal. If she comes to you, don't be surprised when she pushes you beyond what you consider acceptable, even if you consider a lot more behaviors acceptable than her dad does.

Either choice, supporting her dad or bringing her to you, is better than letting her stay with her dad and you taking her side and therefore undermining his efforts to discipline her. That seems like the worst of possible choices.

One other thing. If you think she's in actual danger, you have no choice. You must go and get her.

Anyway, best of luck to all of you.

[Sparkly]

23. Thank you for the thoughtful response

Yes, she is immature, emotionally. As she grew up, she was off the charts in so many areas, but I think the stresses of her environment took a real toll on her.

I think she does want a relationship with her Dad, and I think he does want one with her. But both are remarkably stubborn. I'd have backed down long ago, in either position, just to keep peace if nothing else.

The boyfriend, btw, is college-aged but not doing well in community college, living with his parents, singing in a rock band, as I understand it.

You hit the nail on the head regarding my position with her father. I want to present a "united front," but I disagree with so much of what he says and does. When she's with me, I want to indulge her, but she has no friends here now.

Anyway, I do appreciate your comments as a Dad -- thank you.

[autorank]

29. This is way to complicated to handle online. You're getting good input

but take it to someone who works with adolescents, a professional not affiliated with any denomination.

First of all, you ex may be using this to continue a relationship with you via your daughter.

Second, you had better do a 'safety check.' That's why I suggest you get professional help. You could have her visit you and set up a meeting. This could be sufficiently twisted to present some safety issues.

Finally, when you do get help, and you must for your daughter and you, find out why she's getting caught. Seriously, teen can do all sorts of things and NEVER get caught.

Get help, now! Make it a priority.

[politicat]

30. Sparkly, check your system mail... whatever the little mail icon

above does.

[REP]

31. Girl: Grow Up

Priviledges are earned. Your poor grades and untrustworthy behavior do not merit rewards of priviledges. You are nearly an adult, and have to start learning how to act like one. Obey the rules. It is the minimum you owe your father for feeding and housing you.

Father: Try to teach the girl that ending up a knocked up high school drop out is not a great career path. She won't understand that there's something wrong with a man that age interested in a girl that young, but try to explain anyway. Explain that her actions have consequences, and that if she follows all the rules for (a period of time she could succeed at) she can have one priviledge back; continued good behavior and completed schoolwork will result in more priviledges being returned. Broken rules means losing priviledges and increased household chores. Remember she won't be an adolescent forever, and give thanks for that.

She does need rules and structure in a big, big way. If he didn't love her, he wouldn't care that she's throwing her life away - he'd pawn her off on the 21-year-old Romeo and his parents.

[neebob]

32. What about the part where he's out-of-control angry and throws things?

Are those appropriate ways of showing his love?

[noonwitch]

33. There's really not much anyone can do with a 17 year old

She's almost legal for everything but the beer and pot.

The father needs to learn to meditate so he can stay calm in dealing with this daughter who really knows how to push his buttons. Probably some family therapy is indicated at this time, with an experienced counselor.

He might want to create a behavior contract, that lists the expectations he has for her behavior that she must fulfill if she wishes to continue to live in his house. If not, she can go elsewhere. He's right not to sign permission for her to get a driver's license, that should always be contingent on the kid's behavior.

The kid needs to straighten up, or at least get learn to hide her misbehavior better. If she can't do that, she's going to need to find a different place to live. She also needs a career plan. Her grades might be bad, but pretty much anyone can find a community college program of some sort that can help her. That or a trade school. Make sure she reads apartment ads in the papers and sees that whatever minimum wage job she gets without any training will not pay for much in the way of housing. Let her know she will be spending $50-70 a week on groceries, and that utilities are also expensive. 21 year old boyfriends don't generally contribute much, either.