Socrates, Plato & the Apology and The Republic (Discuss)

[GingerSnaps]

Any opinions on it?

[Beware the Beast Man]

1. I have a theory that Socrates' allegory of the cave

Is his description of a near-death experience, with "heaven" described as "truth." If you believe that sort of thing, the allegory parallels what many say about the afterlife.

Other than that, it's been years since I've cracked open a Greek text.

[GingerSnaps]

3. I am screwed

I have to give a speech on it tonight and I have been down with the flu.

[BigMcLargehuge]

4. just imagine all the shadows in cave in their underwear

:)

[Beware the Beast Man]

6. On the Allegory?

if so, here's a link; it sums it up pretty well:

http://www.historyguide.org/intellect/allegory.html

[BigMcLargehuge]

2. Love both and reread them every year or so

here's my take -

Socrates was Jesus before Jesus was Jesus... does that make sense? i.e. he was the model for the Jesus character of Christian history. There's a whole lot of other stuff that appears in the bible that appears before the bible was written, such as the Babylonian: Utnapishtim/Old Testament: Noah stories, that there are enough parallels in the Apolpgy and Passion that I think one is an extrapolation of the other.

The Republic is a dissection of Spartan society, and as such, makes a very interesting read about how a people can restrict and legislate themselves into paralysis.

[GingerSnaps]

5. Thanks

I missed my class last week and I am in trouble.

[Ron Green]

7. Plato obviously was an elitist....

he did not trust the opinions of the masses, but advised to listen to the "wisest and best" people. Seems that today we're looking at the same issues: Who are the wisest and best? The RW thinks it's Rumsfeld and Cheney. I think it's Dennis Kucinich and Noam Chomsky.

[orwell]

11. Socrates the Socialist?

"You must contrive for your future rulers another and a better life than that of a ruler, and then you may have a well-ordered State; for only in the State which offers this, will they rule who are truly rich, not in silver and gold, but in virtue and wisdom, which are the true blessings of life. Whereas if they go to the administration of public affairs, poor and hungering after the' own private advantage, thinking that hence they are to snatch the chief good, order there can never be; for they will be fighting about office, and the civil and domestic broils which thus arise will be the ruin of the rulers themselves and of the whole State.

And thus our State which is also yours will be a reality, and not a dream only, and will be administered in a spirit unlike that of other States, in which men fight with one another about shadows only and are distracted in the struggle for power, which in their eyes is a great good. Whereas the truth is that the State in which the rulers are most reluctant to govern is always the best and most quietly governed, and the State in which they are most eager, the worst."

Plato does favor the wise philosopher king as enlightened ruler for those enslaved in the shadow world of materialism. But the charge of elitism may be the wrong one. If elite is defined as the rare and unique seeker of wisdom/truth, I would agree. But clearly, Plato shows clear disdain for those born to riches/power who rule for the benefit of the few or for the sake of blind ambition alone.

He sounds like he would agree with your Chomsky/Kucinich observation.

In any case it sounds like a pretty damning indictment of the current regime to me.

[Ron Green]

12. Yes, and perhaps "elitist" was not quite the right word, although Plato

has Socrates warning over and over against the opinion of the many. Right-wing free-marketers like to use the "governs best which governs least" point to support their mischief, claiming that liberals are "eager to govern," but it seems nothing has changed if you see these wingnuts as the heirs of those who will snatch the chief good. And the rhetoricians! They exist today in the electronic media.

[ladjf]

8. Socrates could have safely escaped prison and death but

said that he could serve the cause of truth better by becoming a martyr. Hmm. I was always a bit skeptical about that whole deal.

[Ron Green]

10. He said he could serve the cause of truth better by obeying the law,

even an unfairly-applied law in his case. Otherwise, there is no purpose to society, if laws can be obeyed or not obeyed according to individual choice. I guess he doesn't give much support to civil disobedience here.

[GingerSnaps]

9. Wasn't Plato responsible for Socrates execution?

:shrug:

[Magrittes Pipe]

13. You won't understand either unless you've read...

...the Theaetetus and the Phaedrus. Not to mention the Cratylus (which only makes sense in the original Greek, but you already knew that).