South Korean Gymnastics Coaches Need to Apologize to Paul Hamm!

[joeybee12]

By popular demand, I'm starting this up again.

Paul Hamm is getting screwed over by a lot of you, and by a lot of US journalists. The latter isn't surprising, since most journalists are lazy sacks of shit.

One question: Why didn't the SK coaches protest Yang's score at the appropriate time? They didn't. When they files the official protest over a day later, they said they did. But they're lying. The IFC did not back that claim, the judges did not, and SK can't produce ANYONE who even saw one of their coaches approach the judges' table. Also, even Yang's own words from the night before prove his coaches were lying. He said that he only has himself to blame for not protesting the score, and that it's something he has to live with.

Ok, so now the question again is why didn't they protest? I think the answer is simple. At the time Kim (who won the silver for SK) was in first place. No one expected him not to win the gold. Hamm was in 12th, apparently out of it. The coaches wanted Kim to have the gold, and protesting at that time would basically have been a protest against one of their own teammates, and Kim has been known as SK's top gymnast.

But wait, their plan goes awry. Paul pulls out two amazing routines and wins gold. Uh-oh, the SK coahes realize THEIR mistake, and like the poor losers they are, file a protest.

And, as noted before, there was a reason why Paul Hamm went last on the high bar--he scored the highest on that routine in the prelims. It was a reward, because it allowed him to know what he had to beat in order to win. If the SK coaches had played by the rules, then Hamm would have known that he had to perform even better, and, quite frankly,the judges might have rewarded him slightly higher because the routine was so spectacular on a medicore night that he truly deserved the gold for pulling it off.

Give up his gold? Fucking ridiculous.

A second gold for Yang? Baseless.

SK Coaches apologize to Hamm? Abso-fucking-lutely!

[Trajan]

1. Hamm was mediocre ....

Saw it with my own eyes ...

He is a fine boy, a wonderful lad, and it isnt his fault what happened ....

Still ... he wasnt the best ...

He should keep his medal, but he won it by default ....

Abso-fuckin-lutely ...

[joeybee12]

11. Are you sure you used your eyes? The reigning world champ is only

medicore?

Until he fell on the vault, he had a HUGE lead.

Neither South Korean was considered a contender for a medal before the event, but the Chinese and Romanians all had problems.

[trotsky]

17. The two sweetest words in the English language!

Dee fault! Dee fault!


I swear, there is a Homerism for every occasion.

[joeybee12]

20. I went to school with a Dee Fault...

...although she went by Dee Dee.

[mrboba1]

2. Exactly.

Saying that they should just add .1 to the guys score is ridiculous. The judges use the scoring to rank the routines - unless it is completely perfect. So Hamm gets a 9.825 because it was better than the others.

If they gave the SK athlete a higher score, that leads to anyone after him being based on different thresholds of scoring, and this is why these accusations are meaningless.

[joeybee12]

13. Exactly! The problem is that there are intricate details to scoring like

you pointed out. But lazy journalists only deal in controversy, and the whole story, and therefore the truth, gets lost. And I'm disgusted by so many DU'er's not seeing this--don't we all complain about journalists when they miss important facts in political stories? And now they just blindly go along with the mass media.

[qwertyMike]

3. The Korean won n/t

[joeybee12]

16. If you think that, then you know nothing about gymnastics scoring.

Read through all the posts and then try to rebut that Paul still would have won. You can't. So stop just blindly adhering to the mass media and do some critical thinking.

[Blue-Jay]

4. .

[ronnykmarshall]

5. Can I steal that pic?

[Blue-Jay]

6. Absolutely. I did!

Just don't use my bandwidth, por favor. :D

[ronnykmarshall]

14. Done!

I've copied it to my own picture site.

It should come in handy along with my Henny Penny one.

[chiburb]

10. I'm with you...

But at least the jingoism seems to have stopped... for now.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

7. Thanks for posting!

I actually was not aware of the Kim angle. That makes sense. Hamm worked very hard to get where he was, just like all the gymnasts. I would not give up the gold medal if I were in his place. Not only is there no reason to, it would actually hurt the sport, I think, by opening up a whole can of worms and setting a bad precedent for challenges occurring after the allowed time frame.

Judging is never perfect. Unless there is outright corruption, imperfect judging is just one of the variables athletes have to deal with. There are procedures for dealing with judging errors, and South Korea did not take advantage. It's no different from a football coach failing to ask a play to be reviewed after the officials make a supposedly bad call. Simply put, South Korea made a mistake. It's no different from a mistake made by a gymnast within a routine.

I have to think that the people who are suggesting Hamm offer to give up the medal or share it with Yang are not athletes themselves. This isn't a grade school spelling bee. Sharing the medal may seem like a "feel-good" solution to some, but it's not fair and not what Olympic-caliber athletes expect. They deserve to be treated like real athletes, and South Korea needs to learn sportsmanship.

[Dookus]

8. oh whee! THIS again

Hamm lost. He should be a mensch and give up his medal.

[joeybee12]

9. Day Two and you're still not thinking rationally!

I'm getting worried!

[chiburb]

12. Day 2 and you're still posting about it...

I'd say this is the SBLiarsforBush of threads...

[joeybee12]

15. Until I can get it through some thick heads around here, I'll keep posting

I'm sure you get pissed when the media leaves out important stuff about political stories because it doesn't fit their angle. Same thing happening here. If they had changed Yang's score right away, Hamm would have gotten a higher score and still have won. Gymnastics is based on relative scoring. They clearly saw Hamm's performance as better, and he would have score higher than Yang no matter what.

[Dookus]

19. You have not yet explained

why a technical adherence to artificial deadlines trumps the ideal of fairness.

[joeybee12]

22. Because Gymnastisc is relative scoring....If the South Koreans had

protested immediately, the score could have been changed. That would have made Yang's score the highest, and thus the score to beat, and against which all other routines on that apparatus would have been judged. They gave Paul the highest score because they felt his was the best routine, and trumped the previous highest score. If Yang's score had been the highest, in all likelyhood the judges would have put Hamm's still ahead of Yang's because they felt his was the best. So, if the SK coaches had followed the rules, Yang's score would have been changed, and I guarantee you Hamm's score would have been higher and he still would have won.

[Dookus]

25. that doesn't explain anything

First, you make a wild-ass assumption that Hamm would've done better if Yang's score were higher. Are you saying Hamm was holding back?

Second, WHAT ON EARTH does the time-limit for protests have to do with my question? I very specifically asked why an arbitrary time limit trumps fairness.

Third, Hamm lost.

[joeybee12]

27. You are hopeless! I SAID that the JUDGES would have scored Hamm

higher because that's what they do! They score based on what was the previous highest score. There's a reason why you protest immediately, because if a score is changed, then other scores that come after will BE BASED ON THAT CHANGED< AND THEREFORE HIGHER SCORE!

You seem to think that scoring is in a vacuum. It's relative!!!!!!!!!!

IT'S VERY FUCKING SIMPLE!

[Dookus]

29. dude

was your mother killed by a gymnastics judge or something? Why the vehemence?

[joeybee12]

35. Ok, it's clear you refuse to try and learn something about gymnastics

scoring. If you did, you would see my point. All you keep doing is making snide comments and keep saying that I haven't explained myself, when even a cursory skimming of my posts proves that I have. It's completely clear and understandable; you're just unwilling to give up your mistaken belief that Yang was robbed simply because you hear that parroting by so many in the media.

[Dookus]

41. No

you are wrong. I have read your posts.

I disagree with you. That doesn't make me dense, stupid, retarded or unstable. I just disagree with you. Can you understand that?

[Commendatori]

21. "Hamm would have gotten a higher score and still have won."

You're considering that as a given?

[joeybee12]

24. See above--and yes, I do, that's why it's important to protest a score

IMMEDIATELY. The SK coaches know they should have. But now they can make it look like Ynag was robbed, which he wasn't. Hamm was the best, and the judges scored him accordingly.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

18. You don't have to participate in the thread.

If you are so sick of the subject, just don't participate. I think it's an important topic. I don't understand how anyone can say this is about "jingoism". I don't necessarily root for the American. I actually didn't root for anyone in particular in the men's gymnastics. Mostly I just wanted to see them all perform. I support Hamm in this based purely on the rules and the circumstances, and I would do so no matter what country he was from.

[chiburb]

32. And you don't need the ability to read apparently...

I said (in an earlier post, not the one you're replying to) I DO NOT see jingoism today, which means I saw it yesterday, and who was speaking to you anyway?

Chimpy the Cheerleader indeed...

[chimpy the poopthrower]

50. Found an interesting commentary on this

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/olympics/gymnastics/wires/08/25/2090.ap.oly.jim.litke.gym.1st.ld.writethru.0866/index.html

[Dookus]

23. don't be obnoxious

Do you really plan to keep posting this until everybody agrees with you?

Have you read Don Quixote?

I'm not thinking rationally because I disagree with you? What a silly assertion.

[joeybee12]

26. Have you read what I've posted? Do you know anything about

gymnastics scoring? Are you just blindly adhering to your flawed theory that Yang would have won?

[Dookus]

28. Why

are you blindly adhering to yoru flawed theory that Hamm would've done better if Yang's score were higher?

Why not answer my questions? repeating the same talking point over and over doesn't actually improve the quality of your argument.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

38. That's not what joeybee is saying at all.

Joeybee is saying that gymnastics scoring is relative. I don't know enough about gymnastics scoring to verify that, but if you have information to the contrary, please provide it. The argument is not that Hamm would have performed better, it's that the judges would have scored Hamm higher. The fact that the judges gave Hamm a higher score to begin with means that they felt Hamm's routine was better than Yang's. If Yang's scores had been changed at the time, Hamm's would have also been higher because the judges would have made it higher since they felt Hamm's routine was better. As I said, I don't know enough about gymnastics scoring to verify that this assessment is correct, but I at least understand the logic. It seems like you are not even reading what joeybee is writing or trying to understand it. No wonder joeybee is frustrated.

[joeybee12]

40. Thank you!!!!!!!!!

As many times as I've pointed this out to him, he keeps coming back with the same argument and mis-states what I've said!

[strategery blunder]

30. Kim had too many holds and I don't think he was deducted for it

After throwing in this deduction, I think Hamm would have won fair and square. This was on Olympic coverage a couple of nights ago.

[Dookus]

33. That's the difference

between a subjective scoring decision and a simple mathematical error.

Yang was screwed by a mathematical error.

If a judge writes down 9.7 and the person putting it into the computer makes a mistake and enters 7.9 should that stand?

[joeybee12]

37. BECAUSE IT"S RELATIVE SCORING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dookus]

42. oh!

Exclamation points!

NOW I agree with you. :eyes:

[chiburb]

44. They help don't they?

Like putting on a pair of reading glasses. I wish he'd thought of that before...

;-)

[joeybee12]

57. I think Dookus was being sarcastic, and I think he still refuses to

see what I'm saying.

[strategery blunder]

39. When the commentators pointed this out, they started on a 10.0,

accounting for the simple 'mathematical error.' Then they took the missed deduction into account. Hamm's score was higher after BOTH of these considerations.

If the judges would have been on top of things, both with the start value AND the too many holds deduction, Hamm still would have won.

[Dookus]

43. forget about the extra-hold deductions

that's a judging decision which cannot be revisited.

The starting value was a simple error, having nothing to do with reviewing the routine.

[strategery blunder]

47. Both were errors

Had both errors been corrected, instead of just one, Hamm still would have won.

If scores are to be revisited and people are moaning about Kim being screwed, I insist upon revisiting every error, not just one that would have convienently put Kim over the top. After EVERYTHING is corrected, Hamm still wins.

[petronius]

48. I think you're misusing the word 'subjective'

For the judges to miss something that the rules dictate should be an automatic deduction is not 'subjective', it's just another mathematical error. (Silly analogy: If I fail to deduct a check from my checking account register, it's not 'subjective' accounting.) A failure by the judges to notice a defined mistake is not 'subjective', it is a failure of the judges to make a required subtraction - a subtraction that does not depend on their subjective opinion of the routine. In this case, the missed deduction is not really a different type of error from the start value screw up - they are both quantifiable mistakes by the judges that do not depend on 'subjective' scoring.

The subjective aspects of judging refer to the judges using their personal knowledge to rate the overall skill, technique, aesthetics, and so forth of each particular move. (From Merriam-Webster online: "subjective" - modified or affected by personal views, experience, or background.) Required deductions (for too many holds, stepping out or putting weight on the hands during the dismount, failing to include a required element, or whatever) would be 'objective', and would not depend on the judges opinions.

[joeybee12]

52. I don't think I am--it's clear that they thought--subjectively or objectiv

that Hamm's was the best. And what they do is rate that against what had thus far been the highest score--that's what I mean by relative scoring.

Hamm had no visible errors on his high bar routine, and so got a very high mark--they put it above the rest. If he had made a glaring mistake, things would have been different. His routine was technically hard enough and error-free for them to give him the highest marks. Yang made a few obvious mistakes, and was deduicted for them. If he had had the score changed immmediately, the judges were still in a position to give Hamm a higher score, because Yang's was teh benchmark at that point from which they would have rated Hamm's.

Gymnastics scoring--like figure skating and diving--does not exist in a vacuum. And for this reason, you HAVE to protest immediately because that changes EVERYTHING THAT COMES AFTER!

[petronius]

54. I was replying to Post #33

I'm on the don't-give-it-back side...

[joeybee12]

56. Oh, sorry! When these threads get so damn long, it gets confusing!

[chimpy the poopthrower]

55. I don't even think that aspect of it matters.

Even if you could say with certainty that without the wrong start score Yang would have won the gold, I still don't think that means Hamm's win is invalid. To me the important point is that South Korea had their opportunity to protest and they missed that opportunity. South Korea made an error and they must take responsibility for it. Just like a football coach who misses an opportunity to have a questionable call reviewed should not go and complain about it later.

[redqueen]

31. I didn't even think of that aspect

You should send a LTTE. :)

[chiburb]

34. Ooo!

You ARE evil! But will you remember what you posted?

:-)

[redqueen]

45. Most likely,no!

:)

[joeybee12]

36. I want to send one to the twit on MSNBC who says Hamm should give

up the gold, but they don't have an e-mail for him!

[redqueen]

46. It should be public, anyway

That way more people see it than just the twit. :)

[HalfManHalfBiscuit]

49. Nope. Hamm won on a math error, kind of like the Chimp.

Give up the gold, you don't deserve it.

http://www.jimrome.com/home/article/article_2.html

[joeybee12]

53. Read everything posted here--especially the parts about how

gymastics is scored, and you'll realize you can't back up that claim.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

51. Oops. Posted this in the wrong place earlier:

It's an interesting commentary on all this:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/olympics/gymnastics/wires/08/25/2090.ap.oly.jim.litke.gym.1st.ld.writethru.0866/index.html