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corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:46 PM
Original message
Poll question: john lennon or vladimir lenin
for sean

Sorry, polls are turned off at Level 3.

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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. Everybody's starting polls about
Edited on Thu May-06-04 10:58 PM by Dirk39
Revolution, Evolution, Masturbation, Flagellation,
Regulations, Integrations, Meditation, United Nations,
Bagism, Shagism, Dragism, Madism,
Ragism, Tagism, Thisism, Thatism,
John and Yoko, Vladmir Lenin, Timmy Leary, Rosemary, Tommy Smothers,
Bobby Dylan, Tommy Cooper, Derek Taylor, Norman Mailer,
Alan Grinsberg, Hare Krishna



But knowing these desktop-liberals, who escape from history too well: I did vote for Lenin, but don't tell anybody!

All Dirk39 is saying is:
don't give corporate whores any chance.
Not in the U.S.A., not in Germany,
Dirk
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NightTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
2. Or as President Reagan called him...
..."Nikolai Lenin." :eyes:
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Bossy Monkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #2
13. For once, Reagan was on the right track
Vladimir Ulyanov used the nom de guerre N. Lenin. There's nobody named Vladimir Lenin. One o' them hy-storical anomaleees.
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
3. Vladimir Ilyich for me
And I'll take Krupskaya over Yoko too.
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FDRrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Agree on the Krupskaya point
Damn Yoko.
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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. You're pervert!
Edited on Thu May-06-04 11:57 PM by Dirk39
Or is it me: I did vote for Lenin (John told me to do so and I have prove), but now, it even gets worse: I'm a HARDCORE YOKO ONO Fan.
Among many other things, I even love her voice.
Many of the punk and new-wave female singers would not have been possible without Yoko.

Pervert, decadent, european salon-bolshevist,
Dirk

P.S. but who the hell is Krupskaya, what's her latest single? I don't have MTV!
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FDRrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Anna Krupskaya
Lenins spouse...
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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Spouse?
Does this mean, she was only allowed to sing on the B-sides, but was in total control of Lenin and destroyed the Beatles hhh, on edit, Sovjet Union?
Women are worse than communists!
Dirk
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wickerwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 04:34 AM
Response to Reply #6
26. I think Yoko Ono's quite talented as well.
It's amazing how people who have never seen any of her work assume she's talentless just because she was married to someone famous.
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 05:41 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Hey! I have some of Yoko's recordings
They're quite useful for getting folks who don't get the hint that a party is over to clear out.
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FDRrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
5. Lennon
Edited on Thu May-06-04 11:10 PM by FDRrocks
The Dude: It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
Donny: I am the walrus.
The Dude: You know what I'm trying to say...
Walter Sobchak: That fucking bitch...
Donny: I am the walrus.
Walter Sobchak: shut the fuck up, Donny! V.I. Lenin. Vladimr Illyich Ulyanov!

Lenin start out with a good idea, but the Red Terror stuff was a bit too much. But then again I've seen quotes such as "The entetainment industry is just an offshoot of the Jewish religion" attributed to Lennon.

I chose Lennon, even though the idea of Lenin is idealistically romantic and all. Rule by the proletariate... ahh too bad Marx and Lenin were both wrong.
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rumguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Did lennon really say that about hollywood?
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FDRrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #8
20. My source for that is
a Beatles interview disc I acquired at a pawn shop called "The Beatles in Thier Own Words: The Lost Beatles Interviews".

In the press conference portion of this disc Lennon admitsd to saying what I paraphrased.
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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. Let's not become serious, but..
"the idea of Lenin is idealistically romantic and all"

I don't think so at all. As a leftist, I'm aware of the intolerable decisions Lenin has made. Whether Marx nor Lenin were idealists in any way. Even Lennon wasn't an idealist: Imagine is among the most misunderstood works of art in the history of mankind. But Marx is in a way absent from history and practise, although he advocated the commune in Paris.
As a leftist, Lenin is a pain in the ass for me.
It's so easy for leftists - like me - to sit on their desktops and tell other people, what to do or what they should have done or what's unbearable.
ahh too bad Bush, Cheney and Pinochet were not wrong????

Keep you doped with religion and sex and TV
And you think you're so clever and classless and free
But you're still fucking peasants as far as I can see,
Dirk

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GirlinContempt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #5
15. BAH! and stuff
Marx wasn't wrong, he was misinterpreted and badly executed. Big difference.
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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Misinterpreted? - That's too easy...
Edited on Fri May-07-04 01:22 AM by Dirk39
"Philosophers have always tried to
interpret the world, the point is to change it"
Karl Marx

And whatever might have been the results, Lenin TRIED to change it.
As difficult it might be, we have to face this. We cannot sit on our desktops stating: That's not what we wanted: it's misinterpreted. That's not, what we wanted: it's badly executed.
Maybe if only the Lenins would be more like us, and we would be more like Lenin, we might not become angels, but the world would be much better than it is now.
Our desktop phantasies about a better world harm no one and change nothing, they just help us sleeping in peace and although, there's nothing wrong with masturbation, we shouldn't consider it as a courageous act to change the world.
Dirk
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GirlinContempt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Yeah
Except that you know nothing about me, what I do, what I believe, and how much change I bring about or am a part of. Nothing at all. So your point is not so much a point and more an empty rhetoric.
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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. I admit everything...
but the Marx-quote about interpreting OR changing the world was somehow appropriate, wasn't it? At least considering that I really don't know nothing about you except your posting. I really didn't want to offend you in any way. It was just about reflecting an attitude that's so common to me. In a way, I'm somehow overly sensitive when people so easily take the easy way out. And it's something, I'm asking myself a lot of the times. I just wanted to remind people and myself, what it means to sit on your desk in your hopefully safe home in 2004 and tell Lenin, what he should have done or not have done to "execute" socialism.
Do we really know, what should have been done then? Are you really sure, that if you would have been in that position, you would have made better decisions? And if we don't ask questions like this, it's all just a game, while other people, who couldn't care less, make the real decisions.
Dirk
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GirlinContempt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. I don't know that is was...
I'm sorry if it reflects an attitude that you dislike, but I spend a good deal of my time advocating social change and WORKING for the things I believe in. I can't say I know EXACTLY what Lenin should have done, but I can think of things I would have done differently, and I know for sure what I would do today. Maybe, in his situation, I would have reacted the same way, it's really hard to say. But that doesn't mean socialism fails. Part of the problem people seem to have with socialism is they don't see it as a changing form of government, which is intrinsically what it is. When you try to stagnate it, it fails. But I also believe it's truly adaptable, and still relevant, though totally different today. Its why I do the things I do, and the fact that people who couldn't care less are in power motivates me to do things. I organize, hold workshops, volunteer my time at local indi free libraries, get involved. I spend most of my time DOING something. DU is what I do when I'm working on my home-based web design and I have downtime.

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FDRrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. Not matter what way he was interpreted
his predictions haven't come true. He was wrong. Wrong as hell. The world is not going to move towards an agragarian utopia.

The way he predicted it was as a natural movement, yet his texts hint at the need for dictatorship, which Lenine picked up on. Either way.

They were both wrong. Hegelian theory was wrong. Nietze theory was wrong. Idealism is great to a point, but Marx was just flat out wrong.
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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. Oops...
Did you ever really read Marx?
To me Francis Fukuyama 15 years ago sounds much much older than Marx 150 years ago. That Marx, who once stated: "I'm not a marxist".
I'm 100% sure that Marx wanted to be studied to correct him and there's no reason for noone, except idiots, to defend him or any of his research as a kind of bible. But putting this aside, I couldn't think of any other philosopher of the 19th century, who's still that current. Even if you just read the communist manifest today, which was a popular and not a scientific work of Marx even then, it's somehow frightening, how up to date it still is.

I like to turn the whole thing upside down: it's embarrassing for the so-called economic-science - and even more so philosophy nowadays - that Marx is still so up to date.

What you write about "natural movements", "Agragarian Utopias" and "Dictatorships" has nearly nothing to do with Marxism.

But you secret knowledge about Nietzsche and Idealism is simply too much for me to take.

"Was she told when she was young
that pain would lead to pleasure
Did she understand it when they said
That a man must break his back
to earn his day of leisure?
Will FDRrocks still believe it when he's dead
Ah, FDRrocks, FDRrocks, FDRrocks
FDRrocks"

Wladmir Uljanow Lennon

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GirlinContempt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #23
28. Beat me to it
:)
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minkyboodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
31. lol
Well thats just like.. your opinion maaaan..
Long Live the Dude

Scott
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Mattforclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
10. I'd rather take the guy who was murdered
than the guy who murdered. Lennon.
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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. If we all agree with you,
there's noone left to post that he or she is rather with us....
You need the Lenins to have the possibility to "rather take the guy who was murdered".
Others call this history,
Dirk
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Mattforclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. That's great
But I'll still take Lennon.

"You need the Lenins to have the possibility to "rather take the guy who was murdered".
Others call this history,"

Others call it mass murder. That brings up an interesting thought. Is Charles Manson history?
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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Could have been me...
Edited on Fri May-07-04 01:07 AM by Dirk39
saying "that's great but I'll still take Lennon"... in my safe european home.

It's that complicated.
I wouldn't compare Lenin to Manson.

As long as we sit in our chairs, watching the Nixons, Bushs, Hitlers, Fischers, Schrders and Pinochets succeed, in Iraq, Haiti or Chile and all over the world, masturbating about washing our hands in innocence...

...we might NOT make a differance. And although this attitude might be honorable, we shouldn't be too proud of it.
Wake me up, when the Nixons, Bushs, Hitlers, Fischers, Schrders and Pinochets in this world did resign, 'cause our honorable attitude simply convinced them. Or wait for the next election.
Dirk
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Sean Reynolds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #10
24. Yet you've got a sig line with Clark and Kerry......
Edited on Fri May-07-04 02:46 AM by Sean Reynolds
Two people that have been murderers themselves.
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Mattforclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. Nope
They haven't.
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Sean Reynolds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. They haven't?
Edited on Fri May-07-04 01:57 PM by Sean Reynolds
So when Kerry was in Vietnam he didn't murder anyone? When Kerry voted for the Iraq war, he wasn't murdering over 10,000 Iraqis? When Clark was in the military, attacking the hell out of nations - he wasn't murdering? What exactly makes them any different from Lenin? Because you might think their cause was just?

Well Lenin thought so too.

If you want to call Lenin a murderer, then I'm gonna call Clark and Kerry one too. Because they've either directly or indirectly been the result of someone's death. THAT to me is murder.
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GirlinContempt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. You forget, good sir,
that its DIFFERENT if you're an American. 'Specially a rich one.
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corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. or a democrat see bush sr used DU horrible but when clark did
he was a great military tactian
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corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #24
32. but sean they are democrats war crimes are turned into heroism
when they have D's after their names i am sure the DU clark used really wasnt all that bad and the School of Americas Thugs are really really nice men
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Sean Reynolds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 02:47 AM
Response to Original message
25. I think you know where I stand.
;-)
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. hmmm, Im not too sure, could you clarify...
whos the guy in the picture? ;)
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TXlib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
33. Lennon -- zhil.
Lennon -- zhiv.
Lennon -- budyet zhit'.
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
37. Neither...I prefer Marx

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