Did Michael Moore call the passengers on 9/11 a bunh of pu##ies?

[romantico]

Freeper said he called the passengers on the plane on 9/11 a bunch of pussies.Is this true?Any links dis-proving it?

[Gato Moteado]

1. if a freeper said it.....

...then it's almost certainly a lie. never believe what you hear from filth like freepers.

freepers=human garbage

[paper chase guy]

2. their assertion, their proof...

don't let em try to get you into proving a negative.

[zbdent]

18. Along the lines of proving a negative, Saddam's WMDs -

If you destroy the evidence of having WMDs, how do you prove you destroyed it? There's no more evidence you had it.

If there was evidence of having had WMDs and you show the remains, then you are proven as possessing the WMDs!!!!

[Trek234]

3. Disproving it?

Err well the burden of proof lies with the one making the accusations. Surprisngly, many times freepers don't have any evidence.

I have not heard this before, but it would not surprise me.

[AngryWhiteDemocrat]

4. No, he did not

...but what he DID say could be construed as such.

If I'm not mistaken, his comments were that the white people on board did very little to save their own lives. Had the planes been filled with minorities, who are used to defending themselves daily, they would have taken the terrorists down.

But white people, who always think that nothing bad ever happens to them, were unprepared to defend against the attacks on the planes.

But I may be mistaken on whether or not Moore said that

[NewYorkerfromMass]

6. That's the stereotypical gist of it

unfortunately.....you essentially got it right. I well remember the racist aspect of it.

[tinanator]

7. racist?

I guess if you are the sensitive white type, you might holla "racism"! but anyone with a lick of sense (Michael Moore, for example) would laugh their asses off at your Ward Connerly ways. Mr. Moore's points were all about racism, they werent racist. Can you say the same about yourself?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

12. Do you like to stereotype?

If Moore meant to shed light on the struggle of being a minority in this country then fine. But inas far as they perpetuate stereotypes, they were not constructive comments.
And why don't you just call me a Joey?

[Terwilliger]

23. do you really think that white males and what they want aren't in strict

control of this country? really?

[Monte Carlo]

62. Absolutely - it's FUNNY!

The only way we are ever going to rid ourselves of bigotry is to laugh at the stereotypes. Mike does not these thing out of malice, it is a jab. The only way we are going to get past the stupidity is to laugh at it. You can't tell me most white people are not ready to defend themselves.

[iverglas]

70. and damn, this is sad

Speaking as a feminist, one of my favourite jokes is:

Q: How many feminists does it take to change a light bulb?
A: (best if spoken by someone drowning out the question before it's finished)
THAT'S NOT FUNNY!

For anyone who doesn't get it: feminists have no sense of humour. Hahaha.

Then there's: If a man speaks in a forest and there is no woman there to hear him, is he still wrong?

I think it's maybe best told by a man, making fun of the stereotyped "men never get it right" woman, which I think is the stereotype actually being jabbed at in the joke rather than the stereotyped "always wrong" man. But I figure I can tell it out of solidarity. ;)

I figure Moore can tell his that way too.

Absent any actual evidence that Moore is racist, there is simply no reason to interpret what he said as an expression of racism on his part -- any more than there would be any reason to interpret my light bulb joke as an expression of misogyny when I tell it. He wasn't even stereotyping, the way my two jokes do. He wasn't saying all people of colour are street fighters, he was saying people of colour have damned good reason to know how to defend themselves.

Of course the chorus of Moore-bashers is composed of the usual suspects (well, I'm stereotyping on the basis of the one usual suspect I read making the usual plaintive complaints). The ones who would no doubt "interpret" Moore saying "call a spade a spade" as racism ...

Jeez, I can think of all kinds of people I don't like who manage to say funny things that I don't then twist myself in knots trying to portray as racism, or sexism, or Canada-bashing, or any other nasty thing.

Like ... "Soviet Canuckistan". That was so funny I about fell over. Okay, bad example; inadvertent humour, perhaps. So: "Blame Canada". Only silly tightass USAmericans who don't understand Canadian humour -- self-deprecation, largely -- thought that one was offensive. (And that was the joke, you see ... even though a Canadian didn't tell it.)

Yeah, Moore's was funny. But ya'll never win an argument about what's funny, 'cause there just ain't no proof good enough for a tightass. ;)

.

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

81. Props on another glorious post

So when are you going to come join the Marijuana party?

Iver, how do you think the ND's are going to fair in the next general election? How has he done out of the gate? Comes across well on TV - a lot of conviction - isn't a bearded socialst either. The other fella lost on looks alone (sad to say - was he just a strawman in the party race?)

Bill

[leftyandproud]

40. excuse me...

If the planes were filled with black passengers who didn't fight, what would you be saying if Ann Coulter said "You know...those black people were too scared to put up a fight. If we had some white guys on there, they would have done something about it."

What would your response be?

I love playing devils advocate!;)

[tinanator]

75. What a big IF

Anyone who cares what a lunatic like Coulter says, plays into her hands by responding. A waste of diverted energy. I guess parody and racism must ne'er cross paths, but anyone who casts a racist stone at Michael Moore should be automatically suspect in several ways, not the least of which is judgement. To sneer at the ONE lousy liberal voice OUT THERE in the mainstream conciousness, with such an immaculate labor perspective, you have to be Ronald Reagan or something, its RIDICULOUS to fault Michael Moore. Even moreso on patently ludicrous race card playing gossip trashing and disrespecting the one guy who made good being good. Get ahold of yourselves, and show some appreciation and support.

[DarkPhenyx]

55. Why weren't they racist?

That's a pretty interesting observation you make. It's also pretty silly, but that's my opinion. I'd like to hear what your justification of it is.

[Catherine Vincent]

8. Well if he did say that, this is one minority that would

have probably frozen in my seat and cried like a baby. He's wrong on that. He doesn't know how anyone, no matter what their nationality, will react in a situation like that.

[Brian Sweat]

16. That is the problem with stereotypes

The truth is that we are not as different as many people want to believe.

[Yupster]

17. Gosh -- that's even worse

not only insulting the victims but throwing racism into the mix too.

What a moron.

[radwriter0555]

44. Sorry, what office is Moore serving in? Or was he elected to?

He's not an elected, selected or public official of any sort.

While his opinion on things can be relevent, it's not something to defend nor negate.

I don't care what he says, although I don't mind being entertained by his point of view on occasion.

[DarkPhenyx]

57. Unfortuantely teh Left keeps holding Moore up as...

...some sort of great and all wise Oz. That makes him an easy target, adn a valid one, for the Right. Just as unfortunately he says and does some stupid things occassionally.

[radwriter0555]

60. The "LEFT" does? Or is it that the 'right' fears his voice so much

that they excortiate him at every turn?

Anyone with an iota of sense doesn't take what entertainers say to true heart.

We can appreciate a voice and a vision without bowing down and kissing toes, as the right does, with the likes of entertainers like limbaugh, hannity, oreilly, et al.

The right takes him WAY too serious, and apparently fears moore.

We, you know, "the Left", simply appreciate his opinion.

[DarkPhenyx]

61. Yes, the Left does.

Or portions of it.

[radwriter0555]

71. Sort of like how the right thinks limbaugh is a god?

like that kind of 'upholding'?

Oh wait, the left doesn't have any whores for the DNC on national radio.. or teevee...

Just A guy that make MOVIES.

That win an oscar.

[DarkPhenyx]

54. That's still a pretty stupid...

...and bigoted comment to make.

[MrPrax]

85. Yes Moore Did and was NOT one of his Finest Hours LINKS

He said it in London. I guess he thought he was being kewl...he should stick to the US--his forays in the UK or Canada haven't been very successful
(People in Toronto DO lock their doors BTW)

The Independent article
http://www.obv.org.uk/reports/2003/rpt20030106e.htm

an article on it http://www.poppolitics.com/articles/2002-12-02-michaelmoore.shtml

[Loonman]

5. No, he did not say that

More freeper lies.

[stopthegop]

13. he said pretty much what is related by AWD in post 4

I think on a show touting Angry White Men...there used to be transcript on Moore's site, but I can't find it this morning...I don't know whether it was a 'racist' thing to say, or just trying to be outrageous in order to sell books...

[whoYaCallinAlib]

9. Sounds like a freeper trying to discredit Moore.

Expect a lot more of that leading up to release of Moore's 9-11 documentary.

[liberalhistorian]

10. Freeps are always trying to discredit Moore and ascribe

statements to him that he either never made, or that they've taken out of context. They know just how popular he is, and they try to burst his bubble all the time with nonsense drivel.

[moez]

15. I'm new here....

So forgive me if this is not a good link to "quote" - but it does look as if he said it: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=30367.

I'll tell you what - he's a great guy and all but these comments where WAY out of line. For one, I can't imagine mocking anything about these passengers regardless of their race. And second, how does he come off stereotyping how "bad ass" minorities are.

If it's true, he screwed up.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

19. Well . . . sounds to me like Moore needs sensitivity training.

I agree 95% with his politics, but mocking these victims is over the top and indefensible.

[Terwilliger]

21. oh?

and where did he say this?

[whoYaCallinAlib]

25. Post No. 15

[Terwilliger]

32. post number 15? worldnetdaily? They publish Coulter.

Give me a legitimate source of information.

[Exultant Democracy]

38. For real, worldnetdaily is all trash.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

42. Fair enough. Did Moore dispute the WND article?

Just curious.

[Terwilliger]

45. did you find a link saying that Moore said the things claimed?

does Moore need to defend something that could be totally fabricated? why is the onus on Moore? why don't you find out, and get back to me.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

69. Usually, if someone falsely claims you said something, you refute

the claim and ask for an apology. That's all I'm saying.

[iverglas]

72. nah

Usually you consider the source first, and then decide whether it's worth wasting your precious time on it.

When the source is WorldNetDaily, it's a pretty easy call.

.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

73. Okay, you win.

I'll shut up.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

11. Did Bush call the Saudis our "good friends"?

well did he?

[Giverney]

14. Michael Moore

If he really did make statements that paint a brush stroke across all 'whites' then he's as stereotypical as the freepers out there.. I thought were were supposed to encourage that NOT happening.

Also, that's a pretty dumb statement considering:
1. Noone know what happened on board, there's a few phone converstaions about them slashing passenger's throats... but other than that.. nada.
2. the 'let's roll' guy was white. and they stopped that plane in pennsylvania.

sad people have to disrespect the dead... just like the dead bodies we're seeing on tv.. i dont care who they were, they're dead, dont flash that sh*t all over tv.

[Terwilliger]

20. no no...a link PROVING that is in order...

[Ripley]

22. I heard Moore say this on CNN last year...

"I think black people are smarter than white people. I've never met a stupid black person."

I think that is an absurd statement. I suppose he is bending over backwards trying "not" to be racist, but does anybody really believe he thinks that?

[baffie]

24. I can only say that in my experience

Michael Moore has a point about ethnic groups being more likely to stand up for themselves. And this are only my observations, mind you, for whatever they're worth.

I remember a few years ago this guy advertised on TV that for 10 bucks you could attend a seminar to teach you how to invest in real estate with no down payment. He portrayed himself as a humanist who wanted to give a break to others like himself who had started out with nothing.

Well, the "seminar" was nothing more than an hour-long advertisement for ANOTHER seminar that cost $300.

It was the African Americans in the audience who said, "Hey, wait a minute! This isn't what you promised us!" They made a serious issue about it, which was correct because we had been lied to. I really admired them! The white folks in the audience just sat there passively and said nothing. And I was one of that group.

In other cases it may be different, maybe white people stand up instead. But this may be the kind of thing Michael Moore has experienced.

Again, I'm just offering this as food for thought in the course of this discussion.

[Fixated]

26. ...

If he's never met a stupid black person, he must not have met a lot of black people. I think that 95% or so of all people are generally uninformed, black or white (or whatever).

He may have been joking, which actually would make it funny to me, but if he had a hint of seriousness when saying that black people could have reacted better, he needs an asskicking.

[Tansy_Gold]

27. Sometimes people say things just to get your attention and FORCE. . . .

. . . . you to think about what they've said, and then follow it up with some serious debate and analysis.

I think -- JMHO -- that is what Moore does almost all the time. In a sense he's a shock jock. Just the title of the book, "Stupid White Men," is supposed to grab your attention, regardless of your ethnicity. Think also about his appearance, about his resolute insistence that he's not going to project an image of anything other than what he is (which in fact may be another image, but I'm not going to go there.. . . . .)

I haven't agreed with everything Moore has said, but I do think he's one of those whose words should never be taken out of context. He's not a sound-byte person, because his sound-bytes seem rarely to mean what they appear to mean.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

29. You may be right . . . but there are just some things you don't joke

about . . . for shock value or otherwise. The victims of 9-11 are fucking off limits.

[moez]

33. WHAT????

Yeah, and all the black guys I knew in school were really fast and jumped high...

It's this kind of bogus homogenizing of other groups that is the basis of racism. Once you start making generalizations (even on "good" traits) you're no better than the people that get blasted around here.

Now, if Moore did it for some kind of shock value or to "increase awareness" or whatever - it's a load of crap. He shouldn't have said it and it shouldn't be defended (fan or not).

[ieoeja]

43. And in my experience you have that back asswards.

I have found minorities in most situations are less likely to stand up for themselves.

Within the United States power structure we Stupid White Men are cock of the walk. A lot of rightwing losers like to whine otherwise, but I have noticed that even they appear more aggressive in standing up for themselves.

Minorities still worry how The Man may react.

[theboss]

28. In a round-about way

On his European speaking tour, he essentially said that if black people had been on the planes on 9/11, they would have fought back. But white people are lazy and expect things to be taken care of for them.

Not only is this borderline racist, it's also stupid considering that passengers on Flight 77 apparently did fight back. They were white, though one was gay, so I guess he was used to standing up for himself. Or something.

That's my problem with Moore. He tries to make points through humor, which is great. But he throws out a lot of indefensible statements in the process. And he makes far too many blanket statements. He seems to have learned nuance from Ann Coulter.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

30. It was flight 93 in Pa.

and I agree with you 100%

[Terwilliger]

31. link?

"essentially said" don't cut it

[Liberal Classic]

34. Looking for a source, but here's the quote

If I recall, it was made during one of his speaking engagements or book signings in the U.K. A hardcopy source may be hard to find in this case, because it wasn't published, but rather overheard during a speech. However, I do not believe that Moore has denied he said something to this effect, and Moore's reputation is certianly not one for mincing words.

The passengers (of flight 93 on Sept. 11th -LC) were scaredy-cats because they were mostly white. If the passengers had included black men, those killers, with their puny bodies and unimpressive small knives would have been crushed by the dudes.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

35. Mike was obviously sharing notes with

Jimmy "the Greek" Snyder. :eyes:

[jiacinto]

46. That is such a racist comment

If Moore did say that I now have even more dislike for him.

[lazarus]

65. actually

That wasn't a quote. That was a quote of someone who claimed to have heard it.

This was debated over on DU1, and someone who was there that night heard it, and said this was wildly misrepresented.

[Generic Other]

36. What he was suggesting is that white middleclass Americans

are conditioned to be "polite" no matter what the situation. When they encounter situations that fall outside of their Emily Post notion of how the world should run, they are often unable to respond appropriately, because they lack prior experience dealing with such situations.

Minorities, especially black Americans, know that much of the behavior directed toward them comes from outside of the rules of social order. They have a history of complaining about such treatment. They do not react in stunned silence. Because they are more often targetted, they have learned to challenge those who attempt to victimize them.

I don't think it's racist to say that blacks and whites have dissimilar reactions to events based on cultural differences. And yes, many a minority would have sat glued to a his/her seat in fear and disbelief too. Moore is just suggesting that those who conform to society's rules unquestioningly are at a disadvantage when others break those rules. And that minorities are more attuned to that fact. When your history includes numerous hideous examples of polite, conforming individuals being targetted by vicious people who hate you, you develop a different mindset about when the "flight or fight" response should kick in.

Look at how the average American who voted for Bush deals with the fact that they installed a dangerous lunatic into office. Some defend their stupidity valiently because they don't want to believe that Republicans, or Americans like them, could be capable of evil on the scale that DUers see in Bush's actions. Most say nothing and act like it is bad manners to criticize. It utterly upsets their world view to believe they might be responsible for destroying the country by their actions. They act like it is rude to point such a thing out.

Will black voters who were disenfranchised join the Americans who don't want to make waves? Will black leaders say it is impolitie to accuse Bush of theft and fraud? Do we expect a huge and surprising black voter turn-out for Bush? I think not. Why not? Because experience shapes behavior.

And what of white Republicans who have had 4 years to regret their error? What will they do? Admit they need to change their course of action? Act outside the norm? Unlikely. Rather than believe the evidence before their own eyes, they will march in lockstep to their own destruction. Just like polite white Americans.

Women too are often victimized because we have been raised to be ladylike which does not work in every siutuation. I am sad that middleclass white Americans believe that setting the dinner table correctly is proof of good citizenship, that conformity is a good thing. It only serves to make it easier for others to control our behavior.

We all should learn from the lessons of the past 3 years. Don't act like sheep if you don't want others to herd you into flocks and lead you to the slaughterhouse. That's all Moore was saying.

[moez]

39. Like I said - I'm new....

So maybe I don't understand the "rules" here. Apparently, it seems that "our guys" can say what they want. And, if need be, we'll come up with some convoluted logical stream of consiousness to justify it.

Please.... how ironic that you criticize middle class white America for acting like sheep after rattling off your little diatribe. If that was any other Joe out there uttering these comments, if they were posted on this board, if it was reversed and said "thank Goodness there were no minorities on the PA flight", would your sentiments be the same? I don't believe so.

When we get to a point where we blindly follow and defend "our guys", we fall into the same trap as that which you pointed out for the Republicans. It's "upsetting to your world view".

I'm just saying that these things must be weighed on their own merits. If a guy you like screwed up - he screwed up. Call him on it and move on. But don't try to wash over it and justify errors.

[op6203]

58. .

Good point. If someone you support makes a tacky comment and you defend it, it makes you look bad, too.
OP

[Generic Other]

77. Rattling off my diatribe?

Well I guess if it's not your perspective, it's not worth anything, is it? Just a load of errors. I think you prove my point and serve to illustrate just why minorities are sometimes better able to think outside the box than the average white American who just can't get past the idea that their whiteness doesn't automatically make them best in every situation.

As for the PA "Let's Roll" flight, I have yet to be convinced that passengers had anything to do with the plane's crashing. The truth has not been revealed to my satisfaction.

[Yupster]

68. We had all been conditioned to go along

in criminal situations or hostage situations. It's not worth getting killed over. Just give them the money, do what they say, and they'll go away.

No one thought they were on a suicide mission. When the people in Pennsylvania figured it out they fought back. I bet given another half hour the ones in Washington would have fought back too.

Things are different today. I think any passengers would fight back today knowing what we now know, and color doesn't have anything to do with it.

[jagguy]

37. and DU loves this mor"a"n

but DU also loves being able to love and hate people (see Clinton) as it suits them.

Its a pretty quick fall once you're on a pedestal.

Noone agrees totally with anyone else especially when you focus on such a wide swath as politics. IF you can hit on 75% agreement you're doing pretty well.

I have little use for Mr Moore but that doesn't prevent me from being part of this group.

[jiacinto]

48. I don't like Moore

nt

[Terwilliger]

50. Carlos doesn't like leftists

or those who support them

[bicentennial_baby]

56. Correction

Isn't it "radical fringe leftists" that Carlos dislikes? :P

[JohnKleeb]

59. yes bic baby and socialists and communists too

anyways thanks for forgiving me the other day about private school and all I appreciate it. Come comrades lol.

[bicentennial_baby]

64. No problem comrade!

I hope you had a very good birthday! :hi:

[JohnKleeb]

41. I need a link

is it in the book supposely then I can check it out. If he said this I would agree it is racist or very ignorant at least.

[ieoeja]

47. It was a joke!

Look, I'm pretty uptight (i.e. been awhile). But even I can laugh at a simple joke. You people are way too tightly wrapped. What are ya', a bunch of priests at an all girl's school**?


Disclaimer: the author of this message is a white, male, Roman Catholic Atheist. As a human being has the implicit right to poke fun at himself and those like him, I can laugh at Moore's Stupid White Man humour, and make my own Roman Catholic Priest jokes.

[jiacinto]

51. Not a funny joke at all

nt

[lazarus]

66. he didn't say it

It is quoted nowhere in the known universe. The only place anyone has ever found it is in a quote of an assertion that has been disputed by someone who was at the same event.

[TXlib]

49. This is a standard rhetorical attack

To make a bold assertion, and then attempt to force the opposition to disprove it.

To often, the opposition feels the need to refute it, rather than demand the accuser bring proof.

[enki23]

52. alright.

several things become incredibly obvious about this "issue":

1. this is a huuuuuuuge fucking stretch
2. what he actually *did* say appears to be intended quite tongue-in-cheek
3. there is a serious concentration of fucking idiots who look for any chance possible to provide real or imagined justification of their innate mistrust of anyone who has, at any time, in any way been associated with ralph nader.

note: this also includes people who associated with people who associated with ralph nader, people who mention ralph nader without adding "the egomaniacal republican operative with a simultaneously huge and insignificant faction of mindless cult-like followers who spend their time alternately fellating their god-king and tending to their massive portfolios and/or weed stashes in their middle-class white bourgeois vegetarian feng-shui'd college dorm rooms" and people who ever have, or would vote anything other than democrat and won't beg forgiveness for it often enough to suit them.

[Terwilliger]

53. oh no...not just that...

supporting Nader was bad enough....then he had to question guns *SHRIIIIIEEEKK*!!!!!!!!!

[StandWatie]

63. the funniest part...

is the mix of pissed off, nader-hating, useful idiot democrats and NRA sycophants who apparently missed the entire message of the movie (it's not the guns, it's us) because he took a shot at St. Heston.

[Forkboy]

74. Hit the nail right on the head enki

Many of these people have no interest in what was actually said or not,it's just an excuse to dump on someone they've hated all along.

[Rich Hunt]

67. the source

It was in The Independent (?) - whichever one is connected to the Guardian. But it wasn't a direct quote. Basically a woman of South Asian descent attended a performance, got offended, and walked out. She reported it to this newspaper, and that was the only source for this.

If it is true, he did go overboard, but he does that a lot. I honestly think he tries to be politically incorrect once in a while to avoid being painted as another pious annoying leftie. I actually like this about him.

I think the valid heart of his monologue was that some groups of people are accustomed to having someone else clean up for them or get them out of a jam - it's a recurring theme in his work.

By the way, according to this account, it wasn't just African-Americans, it was skinheads and coal miners and some other people. I think he was trying to make a valid point about self-reliance (very dear to my heart - no one will ever clean MY toilet), but bringing ethnicity into it did make me cringe.

I'll try to find the article.

[MrPrax]

86. The Source is a Regular Columnist for the Independent

Here's the column...
http://www.obv.org.uk/reports/2003/rpt20030106e.htm
And SHE is right...
Do black people have a greater propensity for violence? I mean Moore was out of line...

[Blitz]

76. Since I was the one who started the thread on DU I

I thought I'd give you some information. First, here is the article that started the discussion:

http://argument.independent.co.uk/regular_columnists/yasmin_alibhai_brown/story.jsp?story=366725

Unfortunately, the full article is now only available if you pay for it. It was written in The Independent (A very liberal British paper) by Yasmin Alibhai-Brown (a very liberal and very well known British columnist). Here is the relevant quote, free of charge:


"I took my son to see Michael Moore live at the Roundhouse, in north London, before Christmas. The US radical and author of the best-selling book Stupid White Men was (mostly) clever, funny, angry, sharp, iconoclastic and sceptical about the lies and humbug processed by the US government and big business. Sure there were some flunked bits – you expect that, the troughs are part of the adventure, an evening with a well-worn rebel.

What we did not expect was to feel so enraged at one point that we almost walked out. It was when Moore went into a rant about how the passengers on the planes on 11 September were scaredy-cats because they were mostly white. If the passengers had included black men, he claimed, those killers, with their puny bodies and unimpressive small knives, would have been crushed by the dudes, who as we all know take no disrespect from anybody. God save us from such stupid white men, especially now, when in the US and the UK, black people's lives are being ripped to shreds by drugs, lawlessness, fear and frightful violence plus the endless circle of racism, exclusion and incarceration. This is not awesome, Mr Moore; it is a calamity, for descendants of slaves unimaginably more so

The most complete (free) rendition of the article that I could find can be seen here:

http://www.claytoncramer.com/weblog/2003_01_05_archive.html

Here is the original DU thread on the subject (you need to re-login when you get to DU I to access the thread):
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=26941&forum=DCForumID60&archive=yes

Actually, the thread is a very interesting read. It was one of my very first (if not my first) threads on DU.

One edit: Before you jump to conclusions about whether Ms. Alibhai-Brown told the truth in her article or not, take the time to learn something about her and read her articles in the Independent (which are, on the whole, a bit to the left of DU, IMO). Here is a brief description of her that I posted in the original thread:

. . . she is a woman that writes extensively regarding race relations and the role of Muslims in British society. Originally from Uganda, she has also authored several books:

No Place Like Home
The Colour of Love <1993>
Who Do We Think We Are? <2001>
Mixed Feelings <2002>

She is also a Senior Researcher at the Foreign Policy Centre and Director of its Global Britons Programme. She is regarded as one of the most authoritative commentators on issues of race and diversity in the UK.

[Blitz]

78. Kick

[Blitz]

79. Here is an interesting article that I just came across

Written by Kay S. Hymowitz, it is rather critical of Moore and mentions the quote in question:

http://www.city-journal.org/html/13_3_michael_moore.html

[Terwilliger]

83. this is from the front page of that article

City Journal is the nation’s premier urban-policy magazine, “the Bible of the new urbanism,” as London’s Daily Telegraph puts it. During the Giuliani Administration, the magazine served as an idea factory as the then-mayor revivified New York City, quickly becoming, in the words of the New York Post, “the place where Rudy gets his ideas.” The Public Interest goes further, calling City Journal “the magazine that saved the city.”

OK....nnnnnnnext!!!

[Fescue4u]

80. I remember when this came out...

It was pretty inflamatory and racist.

But hey he's anti Bush and anti-gun so we must ignore it right?

[jiacinto]

82. What this thread really says

Moore is like a God to people here. Along with his fellow deity, Ralph Nader, people will go to the most absurd lengths to defend and to rationalize their Gods and Holy Heroes. Moore can do no wrong and is above reproach.

[Garage Queen]

84. Nooooo....it's saying that we want to see the ACTUAL WORDS Moore spoke

All we've gotten so far is the quote from the woman who walked out. She says "He said this and this and this..." We've seen the NEWSPAPER's version of what her RECOLLECTION of what he said, but we've yet to see the ACTUAL QUOTE/S.

In a court of law this is known as "hearsay" and would be inadmissible.

[Forkboy]

90. Carlos has no interest in what was actually said

Nader and Moore are not Gods to anyone here...but they most certainly are his Satan.And his lies,distortions and hatred belong on FreeRepublic more than DU.Small minds fit right in there.

[jiacinto]

93. I don't distort Nader

I've gone by his own words and statements. And it is against the rule to equate another poster with Free Republic.

[Forkboy]

94. This thread isn't about Nader

but of course to you the two are inseperable.And no,your hate does fit in there...alert me.

[Terwilliger]

87. ...like Carlos

I think the attitudes towards his DLC dreams are starting to wear on the young boy.

[Forkboy]

89. Carlos...remember these words?

"You shouldn't be insulting people who disagree with you"

That was you yesterday.

Once again you show yourself for the complete hypocrite you are.

Once again you show that you're incapable of thinking beyond your own hate filled vision.

Once again you show a simple-minded myopic view of anyone who doesn't see things your way.

Once again you make a fool of yourself for all to see.

Once again your hypocrisy sickens me.

A mind is a terrible thing to waste Carlos.

[jiacinto]

92. I didn't insult anyone there

I just said that people considered them to be Gods. That's not insulting them.

Now if I called them a name or said that they were "stupid or fuckheads" then that would be namecalling.

But saying that Nader and Moore are like Gods isn't an insult. It's the truth. To all too many here both men can do no wrong.

[Forkboy]

95. No it's not the truth

and it IS insulting because it isn't....you've been told over and over it isn't true,yet you keep doing it.THAT is insulting.It's insulting to my intelligence and your own.

You dont seem to care that no one has shown the quote to be accurate...you just hate them.He's no God to us he's Satan to you.

[mitchum]

88. I was actually more offended when he said:

"Yeah, I send them to a private school, I'm not going to left my kids be a pawn in some failied social experiment"
"I wanted to do something more important with my life than work on a line"
"I don't really think you can change much by where you buy your stuff"
These were from a Playboy interview 4-5 years ago.
I'm not a Moore hater,. I really appreciate the things he has done for our side, but I always keep in mind that his "profession" is "voice of the working class"
Al Franken is much funnier, but thats to be expected. Franken is a comedy professional, Moore has never really had to work a hostile room (just riffing to the choir)
For interesting insight to Moore, read Ben Hamper's "Rivethead"

[alaine]

91. It's so weird this thing that keeps happening with the

"isms".

I'd want to know if this statement is offensive to Black and Middle-Eastern people (as the "puny bodies" thing wasn't lost on me); I'd want to hear someone say I'm in this group and this is a stereotype and it bothers me, or it's a stereotype but who gives a shit, there are a lot of other things that are more important. But I really don't care what white people think, because as a white person I have to agree with Moore, we are told to be nice and quiet. My only perspective on it is my point of view as a white person.

It's the same thing with sexism. Some men say they are not misogynist and then make sexist statements, and when they are called on it they say "I'm not sexist, I love women, there's something wrong with YOU, you're interpreting it wrong." If the woman replies, but I AM a woman and I am telling you this is sexist, then it goes round and round 'til you get to the point where it becomes obvious they only have love for voiceless plastic pin-ups, not 'ugly man-hating feminists who bitch all the time and never give them any pussy'.

The point for me is shutting the hell up long enough to let the group being referred to define what is offensive to them. Then we can learn not to repeat the same stupid mistakes. But if we fall into these stupid divisive freep wars we are really not getting anywhere but futher away from each other.