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Did Saddam gas the Kurds BEFORE that famous Rumsfeld handshake?

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doubles Donating Member (357 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 12:04 AM
Original message
Did Saddam gas the Kurds BEFORE that famous Rumsfeld handshake?
Just saw this on Nightline. If true, that the Reagan administration embraced Saddam AFTER he gassed the Kurds, why on earth are we allowing these hypocrites to get away with their preaching of late that we invaded Iraq because Saddam is an evil man who committed genocide? Why isn't the media focused on the fact that the Reagan administration embraced Saddam to fight Iran after he committed genocide?
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OrAnarch Donating Member (433 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
1. Did Saddam gas the Kurds at all?
Seems to be a much better question afterall...I wouldn't put it past the man, and hell, they are really a rebel faction, but evidence suggest they were caught in the crossfire of the Iraq/Iran war, and could have easily been gassed by the other side. Food for thought...but trust me, youll hear that point far more when we decide to invade Iran. The "truth" dynamically caters to the governments policies, providing ample material for propaganda. Best shot is to believe nothing.
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retyred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #1
13. No!
Our own Pentagon reported that it was Iran that gassed the Kurds not Iraq.



retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”

So I read this book
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Dagaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
2. Yes
That was under Jimmy Carter. The policy didn't change under Reagan and in fact they got cozier up until the Kuwaitt decision. Had Saddam not tried to take Kuwaitt we never would have had a problem. Gas away would be the policy still.
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T Roosevelt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Jimmy Carter?
IIRC the Kurd event was in 1988, and Rumsfeld was in '83 - everything under Reagan. Our initial support of Saddam was early 70s?
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doubles Donating Member (357 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. OK, now I am confused.....nt
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Yep... 1988 - and it was Iran who gassed the Kurds (by mistake)
Edited on Wed Dec-17-03 12:23 AM by alg0912
Who is responsible for the deaths of Iraqi civilians?

<snip>
This claim of Iraq gassing its own citizens at Halabjah has two problems. First, both Iran and Iraq used chemical weapons against each other during their 8 year war. Second, at the termination of the Iran-Iraq war, Professors Stephen Pelletiere and Leif Rosenberger, and Lt. Colonel Douglas Johnson of the U.S. Army War College (USAWC.) undertook a study of the use of chemical weapons by the Iran and Iraq in order to better understand battlefield chemical warfare. They concluded that it was Iran and not Iraq that killed the Kurds.

<snip>
Regarding the Halabjah incident where Iraqi soldiers where reported to have gassed their own Kurdish citizens, the U.S. Army War College investigators observed: "It appears that in seeking to punish Iraq, Congress was influenced by another incident that occurred five months earlier in another Iraq-Kurdish city, Halabjah. In March 1988, the Kurds at Halabjah were bombarded with chemical weapons, producing many deaths. Photographs of the Kurdish victims were widely disseminated in the international media. Iraq was blamed for the Halabjah attack even though it was subsequently brought out that Iran too had used chemical weapons in this operation, and it seemed likely that it was the Iranian bombardment that had actually killed the Kurds."

<snip>
The likely scenario of what occurred at Halabjah is as follows: 1. When Iraqi forces attacked Halabjah, the Kurdish civilian population fled. 2. Iran learnt of the Iraqi occupation and the flight of the Kurds and attacked Halabjah with non-persistent chemical gas. 3. However, poor Iranian intelligence had failed to learn that Iraqi forces had withdrawn from Halabjah and the Kurds had returned. 4. Iran gassed the Kurds at Halabjah by accident.
</snip.

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mobuto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. That's not true
The Kurds believe Saddam gassed them and the evidence agrees. After the gassing, Saddam's troops buried many of the survivors alive, and did their best to hide the evidence.

Iran and Iraq were bitter enemies. Why would Iraq cover Iran's ass rather than exploit the situation for propaganda purposes?

The War College Report was also written before the chemicals used were precisely determined or the extent of Iraq's chemical weapons program. Its now certain beyond a shaddow of a doubt that Iraq, and not Iran, was responsible for gassing Halabja and surrounding towns.
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doubles Donating Member (357 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. How many people actually died? I hear figures from a 1,000 to 500,000...
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. Your source?
That's the "official" version per the first Bush administration. Do you have another source, like the UN?
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. You beat me to it - Here's more from Pelletiere - It wasn't Iraq
Edited on Wed Dec-17-03 12:41 AM by Tinoire
and they knew this long before Bush stole office.

A War Crime or an Act of War?

By Stephen C. Pelletiere The New York Times, Jan. 31, 2003

<reluctant snip>

The accusation that Iraq has used chemical weapons against its citizens is a familiar part of the debate. The piece of hard evidence most frequently brought up concerns the gassing of Iraqi Kurds at the town of Halabja in March 1988, near the end of the eight-year Iran-Iraq war. President Bush himself has cited Iraq's "gassing its own people," specifically at Halabja, as a reason to topple Saddam Hussein.

<snip>

I am in a position to know because, as the Central Intelligence Agency's senior political analyst on Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war, and as a professor at the Army War College from 1988 to 2000, I was privy to much of the classified material that flowed through Washington having to do with the Persian Gulf. In addition, I headed a 1991 Army investigation into how the Iraqis would fight a war against the United States; the classified version of the report went into great detail on the Halabja affair.

This much about the gassing at Halabja we undoubtedly know: it came about in the course of a battle between Iraqis and Iranians. Iraq used chemical weapons to try to kill Iranians who had seized the town, which is in northern Iraq not far from the Iranian border. The Kurdish civilians who died had the misfortune to be caught up in that exchange. But they were not Iraq's main target.

And the story gets murkier: immediately after the battle the United States Defense Intelligence Agency investigated and produced a classified report, which it circulated within the intelligence community on a need-to-know basis. That study asserted that it was Iranian gas that killed the Kurds, not Iraqi gas.

<snip>

The agency did find that each side used gas against the other in the battle around Halabja. The condition of the dead Kurds' bodies, however, indicated they had been killed with a blood agent - that is, a cyanide-based gas - which Iran was known to use. The Iraqis, who are thought to have used mustard gas in the battle, are not known to have possessed blood agents at the time.

<snip>

http://www.wanniski.com/showarticle.asp?articleid=2434

==================================================
Memo To: Vice President Dick Cheney
From: Jude Wanniski
Re: A Very Important Fellow You Should Meet

You have known me long enough, Mr. Vice President, to know that I collect interesting people who are generally unknowns, but who deserve to be known. Remember Art Laffer and Bob Mundell? Anyway, I have discovered a very interesting man, Steve Pelletiere, who happens to be retired after a long and rich career with the CIA and then the Army War College in Carlisle, Pa. He's 70 years old and as I discovered when he came to visit me last month, a tall stringbean of a fellow, who knows more about oil than I will ever know, but who wanted me to teach him about the gold/oil nexus. Imagine that, 70 and still eager to learn. His Ph.D. is in Political Science and after a stint in journalism, covering the Middle East, he became the CIA's senior analyst at Langley during the Iran/Iraq war. At the Army War College, he and others studied Iraq's victory over Iran in minute detail, and he has written a number of books on how that feat was managed, with Iraq outnumbered 3-to-1 by the Iranians. If I were you, Mr. VP, I would invite him to kick things around with your staff, to give you the kind of overview you could never get by reaching out randomly to folks at the Pentagon or State.

To whet your appetite, here is a report of a talk he gave to the Center for Policy Analysis on Palestine CPAP), September 13, 2001. That is, two days after 9-11. He is a pretty good predictor, you will see, which is why I think you should ask him to bring in his crystal ball and tell you what will happen if we bring down Saddam by force, without the UN behind us. There are few people in the world with your experience, Mr. VP, but I think you know there are still a few things you do not know.

* * * * *

“The Role of the Media in Shaping Public Perception.”
Report from a CPAP briefing by Stephen Pelletiere

With a PhD in Political Science, a background in journalism, and a current position as professor of National Security Affairs at the U.S. Army War College, Stephen Pelletiere brought his expertise to a discussion of the media at a 13 September 2001 Center lecture. He focused on press coverage of Iraq, Palestine, and the current situation following the 11 September plane hijackings and attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon in the U.S.

Pelletiere began by addressing the media campaign against Iraq following the Iran-Iraq war. The U.S. did not expect Iraq to win, and when it did, U.S. leaders were “dumbfounded.” As Iraq sought to “rebuild itself” after the war, the U.S. attempted to prevent this restructuring through a number of avenues, focusing on damaging Iraq’s “credit worthiness.” Despite the accumulation of a large debt, Iraq “was good for the money” considering its oil resources. Still, in the spring of 1988, Iraq did not have the cash reserves necessary and wished to reschedule its debt payments. The media in the U.S. began running stories on Iraq, “the tone of which was extremely hostile.”

Despite the accumulation of a large debt, Iraq “was good for the money” considering its oil resources. Still, in the spring of 1988, Iraq did not have the cash reserves necessary and wished to reschedule its debt payments. The media in the U.S. began running stories on Iraq, “the tone of which was extremely hostile.”

“All of the stories were slanted against Iraq,” which by itself is suspicious. In addition, some of the stories were simply “phony,” such as the report that 80,000 to 100,000 Kurds were gassed to death by Iraq. “You can’t kill that many people using gas, in a concentrated period, in terrain such as exists in northern Iraq.” Irrational stories do appear in the media on occasion, but not usually so extensively in the established press. It seemed to Pelletiere that “this was a campaign.” At the time, Congress was debating sanctions on Iraq and may have been trying to prepare the public. When sanctions were eventually declared, Iraq could no longer reschedule its debts.

<snip>

http://www.wanniski.com/showarticle.asp?articleid=2208

The above text is based on remarks delivered on 13 September 2001 by Stephen Pelletiere, Professor of National Security Affairs at the U.S. Army War College. His presentation was based on his book Iraq and the International Oil System: Why America Went to War in the Gulf (Praeger: 2001). His views do not necessarily reflect those of the Center for Policy Analysis on Palestine or The Jerusalem Fund. This “For the Record” was written by Publications Manager Wendy Lehman; it may be used without permission but with proper attribution to the Center for Policy Analysis on Palestine.

This information first appeared in For the Record No. 82, 18 September 2001
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
prolesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. What is that remark
supposed to mean?
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economic justice Donating Member (776 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. Speculation, that's all. <eom>
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. Less than meets the eye
Do a search on other posts and you won't even care ;)
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #16
27. Yeah. Kind of like economic justice is slang for Evan Bayh
What an enchanting day to meet someone of your depth; it's certainly not an everyday occurrence :)
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #12
19. Thanks, Tinoire!
I couldn't find my link for wanniski.com right away - this is the best dissertation of the event... :thumbsup:
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #19
28. No. Thank YOU
I had that site book-marked but never listened to the 2 lectures before; I just did tonight. Those were GREAT! Thanks for bringing up Pelletiere and spurring me to listen to those!

:hi:
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. I thought we were closer to Iran in the 70's
then switched after the Iranian revolution. Or something like that...
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
4. Reagan got Saddam(Iraq) a seat at the U.N.
also ..
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scottcsmith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
6. It was after, 1987-1988.
Edited on Wed Dec-17-03 12:20 AM by scottcsmith
The Rummy photo is from 1983, and we were aiding and arming Saddam through the mid-1980s. It was 1987-1988 that Saddam attacked and gassed the Kurds. The NY Times reported in 2002 that we used covert ops to continue and aid Saddam, despite the gassing of the Kurds and our "official" objections.

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/51/220.html

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doubles Donating Member (357 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. OK, so Rummy's handshake was '83 but....
Edited on Wed Dec-17-03 12:31 AM by doubles
we continued embracing Saddam even after the Kurd event and now all the Repugs suddenly use the Kurd event to their benefit when it was never an issue with them post 1988/ pre 1990....

Interesting but not surprised, goes right along with their politics, why can't the average American see through this?
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Chants Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #10
25. You make an important point.
And that point is that the United States was on cozy diplomatic terms with Saddam Hussien at a time when he in the midst of committing shocking atrocities. It was a huge mistake. We should never forget that, or we are likely to repeat it.

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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 12:24 AM
Response to Original message
8. Here. Read this
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A52241-2002Dec29?language=printer

U.S. Had Key Role in Iraq Buildup


Trade in Chemical Arms Allowed Despite Their Use on Iranians, Kurds


By Michael Dobbs
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, December 30, 2002; Page A01


<snip>...What U.S. officials rarely acknowledge is that these offenses date back to a period when Hussein was seen in Washington as a valued ally.

Among the people instrumental in tilting U.S. policy toward Baghdad during the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war was Donald H. Rumsfeld, now defense secretary, whose December 1983 meeting with Hussein as a special presidential envoy paved the way for normalization of U.S.-Iraqi relations. Declassified documents show that Rumsfeld traveled to Baghdad at a time when Iraq was using chemical weapons on an "almost daily" basis in defiance of international conventions.

The story of U.S. involvement with Saddam Hussein in the years before his 1990 attack on Kuwait -- which included large-scale intelligence sharing, supply of cluster bombs through a Chilean front company, and facilitating Iraq's acquisition of chemical and biological precursors -- is a topical example of the underside of U.S. foreign policy. It is a world in which deals can be struck with dictators, human rights violations sometimes overlooked, and accommodations made with arms proliferators, all on the principle that the "enemy of my enemy is my friend."

Throughout the 1980s, Hussein's Iraq was the sworn enemy of Iran, then still in the throes of an Islamic revolution. U.S. officials saw Baghdad as a bulwark against militant Shiite extremism and the fall of pro-American states such as Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and even Jordan -- a Middle East version of the "domino theory" in Southeast Asia. That was enough to turn Hussein into a strategic partner and for U.S. diplomats in Baghdad to routinely refer to Iraqi forces as "the good guys," in contrast to the Iranians, who were depicted as "the bad guys."

A review of thousands of declassified government documents and interviews with former policymakers shows that U.S. intelligence and logistical support played a crucial role in shoring up Iraqi defenses against the "human wave" attacks by suicidal Iranian troops. The administrations of Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush authorized the sale to Iraq of numerous items that had both military and civilian applications, including poisonous chemicals and deadly biological viruses, such as anthrax and bubonic plague.

more


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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 12:34 AM
Response to Original message
14. No
Edited on Wed Dec-17-03 12:45 AM by Aidoneus
The various incidents of CWs against the Kurds were late in the Iran-Iraq war, as the Kurds in the area had allied with Iran in their war against the Iraqi state. Reagan's people tried to blame the CW events on Iran (and lately, some DUers believe the propaganda that Reagan-Bush put out on this view), to make up for the fact that they were on excellent terms with Saddam before and after then. Congress was furious, but eventually Reagan-GHWBush squashed any punishment against their friend Saddam.

Rumsfeld visited Saddam 6-7yrs before this, '82-'83 I believe. Around that time there were uses of chemical weapons against Iranian military, I forget the first use ('81 or '83 during an Iranian counterattack against the Iraqi invasion)
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Charlls Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. these days that handshake is have its 20th birthday


Apparently that meeting was december 1983...


:puke: How journalists can miss such an easy one??????????? :mad:
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 12:46 AM
Response to Original message
17. Q & A With CIA Analyst Stephen Pelletiere (A+ Video)
Edited on Wed Dec-17-03 12:49 AM by Tinoire
Part 2: Q & A With CIA Analyst Stephen Pelletiere

Exposing the lies: Who killed the Kurds? Israel's part in a US invasion of Iraq.


Retired Army War College prof. and CIA analyst (6 years) answers questions ranging from the gassing of the Kurds in Halabja , to Israel's push for war on Iraq; and the "chief enemy of the peace movement, the media."

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2098.htm

----

Part 1 is also very interesting and informative. He also discusses Venezuela and how oil is driving this administration. Definitely A+!

CIA Analysis: The Predicament Mr. Bush And The Pentagon Have Gotten US Into

"It's important you understand who is pushing this war"


CIA analyst Stephen Pelletiere (ret. prof at the Army War College) says that after Desert Storm, when Iraq refused to bow to US. pressure, holding out against American dominance, George W. Bush fabricated the present crisis so as to, once and for all, beat the Iraqis into submission - to control oil..."

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2097.htm

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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 01:24 AM
Response to Original message
22. Rummy facilitated Gas Warfare against Iran before the handshake
Edited on Wed Dec-17-03 01:26 AM by bumbler
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RBHam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 01:45 AM
Response to Original message
24. The Handshake


Mr. Hussein! Great job you're doing in that war with Iran!
The President sends his regards.
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