This Clark/Dean sniping has GOT to stop!

[Brotherjohn]

I know it's ongoing, but I've read several threads today in particular which seem to be going too far. I say this as a relatively objective progressive who likes both Dean and Clark and has not made any decisions yet.

Clark supporters bring up criticisms of Dean and Dean supporters bring up criticisms in Clark, and you know what these criticisms most remind me of? The baseless Right-Wing attacks we have grown so used to.

Both Clark and Dean supporters are trying to label the other as a hypocrite, neophyte, conservative, war-mongering, evil, lying duplicitous... blah blah blah. The thing that this criticism shares in common with Right-wing attacks, besides the visciousness, is the faulty logic and arguments being used, the taking of things out of context, the attempt to latch on to any little thing and make it appear what it is not. Also, the attempt at impugning the character of people who endorse or support the other candidate... witness the bashing from Clark supporters Molly Ivins has gotten here today from endorsing Dean (but Dean supporters have likewise been guilty of similar actions).

I know it's just the primaries, but the tenor of much of this sniping is getting so bad that I'm afraid if Dean gets the nod, we'll end up with a bunch of Clark voters who stay home because they just couldn't vote for Dean, and if Clark gets the nod, we'll end up with a bunch of Dean voters who stay home because they just can't vote for Clark. And then we'll end up with a "successful", "popular" two-term President Bush.

Snnff! Can't we just all get along?!?

[Bertha Venation]

1. read this bit again: THE HORROR

"we'll end up with a "successful", "popular" two-term President Bush."

:scared: I would rather have every bone in my body broken. NO shit.

Now: I've been for Dean for a very long time, but an attorney at the firm where I work is working for Clark and is trying to recruit me. She got me invited to a fundraiser next weekend. I'm thinking of going (if the host will give me a break on the min. donation -- I can't afford it) because I want to talk to Clark. I'm not averse to changing my mind.

I want Gov. Dean to be our next president. I think Gen. Clark is the second best choice. But no matter who our nominee is, by god, we must all go to the polls that day, every last one of us, or we don't have a chance.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

4. As Clark as my first choice by and Kerry as my second choice...

...I will say it right now, I will FULLY support WHOEVER the nomminee is against Bush next fall. While Dean is not my first or second choice, I will support his campaign and VOTE for him too.

Four more years of this shit is UNACCEPTABLE!!!


:dem::dem::dem::dem::dem::dem:

[Ksec]

2. I second the motion

But its usually the Deanies that start the shlt...

Im kidding... Lets just stop this. Im getting a bad headache over here.

[Evil_Dewers]

3. Dean hatahs stoop to new low

[mot78]

5. A house divided cannot stand

DU, and consequently, the entire Liberal Blogosphere is being divided admist partisan warfare. We're basically giving the Freepers an early Christmas presant.

[CivilRightsNow]

6. Completely unfair!

Im so sick of this crap.

I feel that Clark is a really really bad decision. I have reasons to back up my opinion. Im not just going out there and saying Clark eats fetuses.

I will continue to voice my concerns, however unpopular, because I truly believe in my heart and with GAGGLES of research that making him president would be a SERIOUS mistake.

Arg. Im not supporting anyone in pushing this country over a cliff. Why would you ask people to go complacently into that just cause someone put on a Democrat pin and got "drafted"?

[Brotherjohn]

9. I don't have a problem with you voicing your concerns.

I'm not asking you to go complacently into anything. It's just that a lot of the criticism coming from both sides seem to be much ado about nothing, laced with flawed reasoning and logic, and overly influenced by that person's obviously deep involvement in the campaign of the other party.

If you have logical, solid points to make, make them (not here though, please. I don't want this to be hijacked into a Dean/Clark fight). But a lot of the points I have seen from either side just don't hold up logically, speaking as an undecided observer.

[HFishbine]

13. Interesting Distinction

As I see it, Clarkies who despise Dean generally seem do so because they don't think he'd be as strong against Bush as Dean.

Deanies who despise Clark gernerally seem to do so because he wouldn't be as good a president as Dean.

[Brotherjohn]

23. I think those are both valid considerations.

Electability and ability. You need a good bit of both.

I don't think, however, they are reason enough to "despise" another candidate.

[wryter2000]

7. This is one Deanie who loves Clark

You're right, BrotherJohn. I've been avoiding it by not going into lots and lots of threads, but they're getting overwhelming.

To all of you flamewarriors, cut it out. You're only making your candidate look bad. And if you're making my candidate look bad -- Dean -- really cut it out!

[Racenut20]

8. Do they have a list they are working on?

I have sat here and watched Leiberman be trashed.

Then Senator Kerry

And now General Clark

And it all seems to be coming from the same folk, who support a certain candidate we won't call by name.

[chimpymustgo]

10. There is a common denominator to all the vicious battles.

nt

[Brotherjohn]

12. Come on. Try to be more objective.

EVERYONE here has consistently criticized Lieberman from Day One.

And I have read many, many threads criticizing other candidates with links to talking points or articles lifted straight from Kerry's campaign site.

And I can't tell you HOW many vile, harsh criticism's I've read about Dean on DU, from all comers. Particularly today, I have read some very harsh and, I think, unsubstantiated, criticisms of Dean from folks who support another candidate "we won't call by name".

A lot of it is "go after the front runner", and everyone is guilty. But it is becoming particularly bad between Clark and Dean, coming from BOTH sides.

[CivilRightsNow]

14. Why dont you call it by name?

Cause there are alot of us out there trying to get people to listen and respond to actual points that havent even picked a candidate yet.. I know I havent, Im narrowing down my options with THOROUGH research. Not some meet the press airing.

It sure as hell aint Dean... And, even though everyone wants to bash on the fact that we are a democracy yet nader is the devil, it sure aint nader supporters..

and judging from your list.. it sure aint Kerry.

So is it Kucinich? The liberals that love love? Is it the gaggle of Al Sharpton supporters?

Who is it?


How about its a bunch of people that care just as much as you think you do. Not one specific candidate's supporters?

Okay. Yeah. Novel concept, I know.

[GalleryGod]

33. Well done,Racenut! You've Discovered the "Progression Chart"

Whose campaign has the most self proclaimed cyber warriors?

Surprized that civil discourse has evaporated in these forums.

Idolatry and Zealotry? Take your pick:silly:

[Scott Lee]

11. Notice a record number of antiDean threads in lock-down

At least the moderators are on the ball here and starting to put a stop to this bullshit.

Look, you have to keep in mind the rancor is really only being spawned from the same handful of individuals, posting voluminously. It isn't like this is an explosion of majority sentiment on DU.

I think I'm going to start treating them like I do my 5 year old nephew when he screams and throws a fit: by ignoring them. This behavior usually stops when we stop feeding it attention.

[chimpymustgo]

15. Notice the number of anti-Kerry, anti-Clark, anti-Edwards locked threads.

Physician, heal thyself.

[Scott Lee]

24. I praise the moderators, and you snipe back. Right on time.

Tell us more about the "common denominator", ok?

[GalleryGod]

31. Handsome Line, My Friend!

:pals:

[Dookus]

16. exactly...

I like Clark, but I've never attacked Dean or any other candidate here.

There's a small contingent of supporters of BOTH candidates who incite and continue these silly flame wars. And they ARE silly - they're based on half-truths, misinformation or just general prejudice. I wish this small group of people would cut it out - some simply can't resist the urge to post the same nonsense in EVERY thread about their "most-hated" candidate.

Here's a tip: If you hate Clark, make your point ONCE. You don't have to infect EVERY Clark thread. The same exact thing is true for the Dean haters. Make a reasoned point, then move on. Posting the same slanders day after day, week after week is just lame.

I'll vote for the Democratic nominee, whoever it is. I hope it's Clark, but that doesn't mean I dislike Dean.

[CivilRightsNow]

18. Is the truth slander?

Sure seems like it is, if it's not what someone wants to hear.

Ridiculous.

Carry on.

[Dookus]

20. surely...

you know that "the truth" is never a simple, one-sided thing. I can argue that it's "the truth" that Dean is a draft-dodger (though I never have stated that and it's not really my belief - it's an example.) Somebody else can state "the truth" that Clark is a war-criminal.

Neither one is actually "the truth" unless one disregards a LOT of contrary information. Life is complicated - one must consider more than biased sound-bytes to arrive at an informed conclusion.

[CivilRightsNow]

25. I dont care about the draft dodging/war criminal crap..

There are some truths out there much bigger then that.

If anyone wishes to find them.

I will say NED, Think Tanks, Mouthpiece as many times as it takes to get someone to actually read the information, not just say it is bashing their candidate unnessecarily.

[ElementaryPenguin]

17. Right on, brother! We must never forget - ANYONE BUT BUSH!!!

:toast:

[CivilRightsNow]

26. What about Bush's doppelganger?

Even Him?

Surely, you guys arent this sheepish. Come on now.

[beawr]

19. We win through Unity

I like Dean and agree with him and I like Clark and think he is indeed the most electable. If Dean wins the nomination, of course I will vote for Dean...that's not the point. I have donated to the Clark campaign solely because I believe he can not only beat, but also humiliate, our common enemy. What we have here is Democrats on the attack and belittling the whole crew in the process. This is merely reflected in the posts.

Democrats seem to have lost their taste for, and ability to wield, POWER. This is evidenced by the sniping and the perverse pride in "not belonging to an Organized Political Party" (W. Rogers)

We are faced with a foe that has borrowed MUCH from the strategy lessons of the Nazi Party. We must present a unified front and win before it becomes absolutely impossible for anyone besides a Fascist to govern, or dare I say rule, our nation.

[newyawker99]

34. Hi beawr!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[izzie]

21. I do think the GOP think it is going to be Dean.

Looks like they are fishing through his records for every thing. That is sort of funny when Bush has stopped all that on him self, father and Reagon.

[Brotherjohn]

22. I see two types of responses here.

One is in general agreeing... that anyone is better than Bush, and as such, we should try to maintain more unity and not shoot ouselves in the foot. These people, who I hope and believe are in the majority among progressives and Democrats, are okay with valid criticism, but take issue with us turning Republican-style attack techniques on other Democrats.

The other seems to imply that the "other" candidate, who is inevitably the one responsible for the most vile criticisms ("But THEY started it!"), is so problematic that it would be very damaging for our democracy for them to get elected. By extension, they are almost saying that anyone would not be better than Bush. These people also seem to have a monopoly on "the truth".

But come one, people. Step back and realize that your enthusiastic support for one candidate could feasibly, possibly... maybe (even just a little?) be clouding your judgement and making you not the most objective sources for information on the opposing candidate. Do even the MOST biased of you really think that Dean or Clark would not EACH be significantly better for our country than Bush?

[CivilRightsNow]

28. How bout the unbiased?

Yes. A big fat resounding YES, I do think that Clark would not be significantly better for our country then bush.

Give me Al, give me Mosley, gimme Lieberman.... I will not muddy up your thread with links and information, but I am currently working on a very extensive list of links and information about this issue.

When presented with all the information, if the people here still keep up this mantra of.. anyone but Bush, I can do nothing other then hope that some greater force guides that sentiment safely. But I know it will not. Maybe it will become apparent to others as well as this charade goes on.

[Brotherjohn]

29. You hint at bigger "truths" and you say that Clark is not...

...significantly different than Bush. I disagree.

But at least, as above, you say that you are not accusing him of "eating fetuses". I initially posted in response to posts like the one earlier today giving Clark hell for a statement about "letting them do software in India". It was out of context and way overblown. Also in response to ones like the Molly Ivins bashing earlier today just because she chose to endorse Dean.

Without seeing your "gaggles" of research, I guess I can't decide whether you're making the same kind of reactionary, illogical criticisms. I don't want to hijack this thread into exactly what I was complaining about, but if you post a reply with one or two links (and nothing more), I promise to look at them and draw my own conclusions (if you do it in the next few minutes, as I leave my computer soon). The thing is, most people start doing much more than that... or even than you saying he's not much different than Bush (I trust you think he's not the anti-Christ).

That being said, I have read many criticisms of Clark, and nothing really stuck (though I'm not a Clark supporter yet).

[GalleryGod]

32. Clark's A Winner His Whole Life

Losers, Whiners, and Malcontents find him repugnant:tinfoilhat:
Did I mention Cheesehead ZEALOTS?:shrug:

[evil_orange_cat]

27. I agree... I like both...

but everytime I try and voice the problems with Clark, I always see Clarkophiles berading me for thinking Dean is the better choice...

I'm sure if I change my mind later on and like Clark better that Deaniacs would do the same. :D

COME ON DUBYA IS OUR ENEMIC!

[Jerseycoa]

30. If you have problems

You should be able to voice them and have them answered, no matter who the candidate is. I never want somebody who questions Clark to be muzzled. In fact I wish we could all take points at issue and talk them through. It doesn't seem to happen or very rarely. People can't make an informed decision about a candidate when an argument flares up every sixty seconds and lasts for twenty minutes. I think people should hold back the nasties and talk about substance. I mean, I feel your pain, truly.