Conservative "insight" into the cause of poverty

[Dirty Hippie]

Found this little "gem" in my local paper.

***
The rich are rich because they are usually good at managing money. The poor are poor because they usually are not good at managing their money. Is it fair to redistribute money to people who are inept at money management?
***

As one who fed my family of three on 30.00 a week during lean times (granted it was 20 years ago) I was incredulous.

http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/democrat/news/opinion/7357790.htm

BTW: Good one on AARP at the top.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. There are flaws in this argument

1. Some people are rich because they inherited wealth. Their lavish lifestyles often show their lack of fiscal responsibility.

2. Some people are poor because of circumstance. Anyone getting a catestrophic illness can easily be reduced to bankruptcy. And a life's savings can be gone in a flash if one loses their job and can't find another.

Obviously whoever wrote this commentary has never met up with spoiled rich kids and has never had to face a real catastrophe in their life.

[bleedingheart]

4. Richard Mellon Scaife is a classic case of inherited wealth

he did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to gain his wealth...and the fortune he inherited was so immense it made money for itself...

In fact his fortune is based a great deal on the suffering of others...the steel barons, coal and banking baron blood money.

[LoZoccolo]

46. And George W. Bush is an example...

...of how if you're born into a rich family and get into a lot of trouble with substance abuse, you have a much better safety net than someone who ends up homeless.

[TankLV]

49. And many, many spoiled rich kids have squandered their wealth.

Blame the victum strikes again!

How CONVENIENT!

Get to selfishly keep all my riches, while feeling not the least troubled by those less fortunate than myself.

How CONVENIENT!

[Don_G]

2. My Brother Feels The Same Way

And incidentally, he hasn't distributed the Estate from my Mom's death after my repeated requests to find out what's going on.

I think he will discover it "highly" insulting to have a lawsuit filed on his ass along with a request for a detailed accounting of where and when the money went to.

[bleedingheart]

5. Just a hint... the will has to be filed at the courthouse and

anyone can look at it.

One of my cousins has gotten copies of the wills of anyone in the family who dies...

[Solomon]

41. Getting the will doesn't help. It's the accounting of the assets that

counts. I am an estate attorney. Usually most juridictions have a way of getting the issue forward by objecting to an account or filing a complaint to force an account. Hopefully your jurisdiction will allow you to get the info you need without actually filing a lawsuit.

[soupkitchen]

31. That's another reason the rich have more money

They steal from estates better.

[bleedingheart]

3. BullPoop!

Most of the supposedly "middle class" and "rich" people I know are about two paychecks from having shit.

I knew a guy who made nearly $50,000 a year who didn't even have a savings account. Granted 50k isn't "rich" but its pretty freaking pitiful when you make that kind of money and you don't even have $500 tucked away at least...

I am so tired of this rhetoric... there are many poor people who get buy and manage far better on less than people who have 100 times more.

I grew up in a single parent household (mom was a widow) and she managed our househould better than Alan Greenspan... and the entire time she was still SAVING!

My other pet peeve regarding the poor is how they spend their WIC or welfare checks on food... Somehow a person who is getting foodstamps should all of a sudden feed their kids gruel in order to justify the use of the stamps...give me a break...I recall watching this mother buy a frozen pizza and a liter of pop and a mixture of other foodstuffs that seem normal to me... and yet some older lady rolled her eyes and told me how horrible that she bought pizza with foodstamps... oh...I guess pizza is somehow like cavier???

[rfranklin]

11. It is not, howver, good nutrition...

to feed your kids on a diet of fat and empty calories. Snack foods are outrageously priced and usually just loaded with salt, sugar and fats. However, as food processors know (like drug pushers), our taste buds crave those tastes and we all indulge more than we should.

[bleedingheart]

18. yeah but that is a general reason...

that applies to both poor and rich.

The funny part is that when someone is poor the general assumption is that they should make healthier food choices on less...but that is not the case... There are a lot of rich people who eat garbage and processed foods have come down so much in price...
For example you can buy frozen dinners at my local store for about $1.19... that isn't bad... I don't know that you could make a good lasagna for $6.00 but you can buy four frozen lasagnas for that much...it turns out to be a better deal... sad but true...

hell the mozzarella I bought for my lasagna ran me almost 6 bucks because of how much I was using....

[camero]

39. have to pop in here

Food stamps are for Food. Not for what "others" deem nutritious.
And besides, that mother could have very well been working before she fell onto hard times. Which means that she is spending her own tax dollars that she invested in for these services and not necessarily yours. We all pay taxes.

[TankLV]

50. Actually, pizza is probably one of the most balanced meals you can eat.

Proper amounts of all the food groups.

Think about it. Look it up. You will be surprised. I was.

My dietitians and physicians have repeatedly told me so.

[pansypoo53219]

36. unfortunately

programs for the poor INSTITUTED bad money choices. years ago a woman who was on welfare, had bought clothes second hand, was extremely frugal and had saved like 2000 to get a car and she wasz penalized for being SMART with her cash grant.
stupid

[camero]

40. That older lady was probably getting Social Security

Which is funded by..guess who?...younger workers. Social Security is a pay-as-you-go system. With younger people funding the retirees.

If true, she would have alot of explaining to do.

[SheilaT]

6. The reason a lot of poor people are poor

is a simple matter of they don't have enough money. They often don't have reliable cars, and little or no access to public transportation. A surprising number of major metropolitan areas (let alone smaller ones) have poor bus service, no light rail. I live in the Kansas City area, and what bus service as exists here is useless for getting to and from most jobs of any kind, let alone the sort of shift work many people at the lower end use.

A $300 car repair is beyond someone who's trying to make it on low wages -- they may not have that kind of cash available, and probably don't have a credit card.

Many of the hardest working people I know are the very poor.

And the majority of personal bankruptcies are triggered by overwhelming medical bills. I guess people who plan so badly that they get a catastrophic illness or work for a company that doesn't provide good health care deserve it.

The lack of a national health care program is another topic, isn't it?

[rfranklin]

9. C'mon people! Wise up! The system is rigged...

like a roulette wheel in a crooked casino. And it's getting worse. Why does a CEO get 500 times the compensation of the lowest paid worker when it used to 76 times? Not because they have increased profits 700% (and, in fact, actually losing money in many cases.)

Why does a black drug user get ten years while Rush Limbaugh gets "treatment?"

Why does the white collar criminal get probation or a fine for stealing millions while the schmuck who steals a candy bar gets mandatory sentencing to the pen?

Why do certain suppliers who get the contracts with extremely profitable terms always happen to be in the same church, fraternal group, or political party as those handing out the largesse? And have made large contributions the same groups or party?

[Ardee]

37. Nail on the head, well stated

The whole system is rigged so that the money goes to fewer and fewer each year. The assaults on inheritance taxes, the elimination of capital gains penalties and the so called "death" tax all assure that those with obscene amounts of money coninue to amass it while those of us less fortunate pay outrageous taxes on income, sales taxes and the various hidden taxes that assualt our incomes.

I have never ceased to be amazed at freepers, most of whom are simpleworking folks subject to the same unfair system, supporting with whole heart those that seek to make them poorer while taking advantage of every loophole they can ram thorugh a biased legislature to accumalate even more wealth.

[solinvictus]

27. Working poor

I can address that issue from experience. Two years ago, my wife and I both had jobs paying $7.50/hour working for a huge medical insurer. We were temp-to-hire, so we had no insurance, sick days, and any holiday was unpaid. Our car, a 1984 Bonneville, was on its last legs. One evening after work, the driver side window fell into the door and would not stay up. Then, it started leaking coolant and I inspected the car to find that the water pump was going bad. At the time, we were bringing home about $440/week together. Rent was $500, daycare was $100/week, we could not afford telephone service, so we had a pre-pay mobile phone that ran about $.60/minute, electricity and water ran about $175/month. I did not have anywhere to repair it myself because of apartment restrictions and coming up with the $300 was nearly impossible. We were in a constant panic every time we drove as the car overheated after a few minutes of driving. We lived less than 3 miles from work and my daughter's school, but I had to add water twice daily. Yep, an emergency like that is catastrophic if you barely earn enough to pay living expenses. That is why we need unions and we need them now.

[BigDaddyLove]

53. So no-one is poor because..............

they are lazy and don't feel like putting the effort not to be poor?

The reasons you state for people ending up poor are valid, but there are a good number of people who have no intention of going out and trying to make an honest living. They are not the lovable hard working people who can't catch a break types that everyone here seems to wish they were.

[camero]

56. I can't believe noone has called you on this.

Sure, there are some who are poor because of addictions, etc. But you can't paint the poor with the broad brush that you have.

I know alot who because of thier limited educational opportunities, are stuck in menial low paying jobs where they are doomed to be poor the rest of thier lives.

What about the disabled who can't work and must survive on menial gov't subsidies (or none at all in some cases. Cut, cut, cut the budget)? Or those who are discriminated against in the workplace because the SCOTUS says that work is not a life activity(yeah, right)?

Keep the RW views on FR,k.

[oneighty]

63. One had best

be very happy to have people beneath one's own level to fill the really, rally bad slots in life otherwise one may have to do it one's self.

Whew!

180

[radfringe]

7. a couple of months ago Neil Boortz blamed poverty

on the catholic church's ban on birth control

his logic - poor people follow the church's doctrines, therefore they don't use birth control and the result is more kids which means it's going to cost more to feed/clothe/care for kids

he specifically targeted the Catholic church, but didn't mention the other religions out there that also ban birth control

[muriel_volestrangler]

10. which are the other sizable faiths

that ban birth control?

[radfringe]

16. various

sects of fundamental christianity

[Fla_Democrat]

15. One of my co-workers is fond of quoting Boortz

Every e-mail he send me has the same tag line.....


"Barring extreme physical and mental disabilities, each and every one of us is where we are today---be it poor or wealthy, happy or sad, on the streets or in a condo, in a Mercedes or a rusted-out Pinto---because of the choices we have made during our lives. It's the choices we have made that put us where we are, not the choices others have made for us."


Well, it's good to know I'm a self-made man. I started out with nothing, and still have most of it left. :evilgrin:

[anarchy1999]

38. Self-made man

This is interesting because I saw "Born Rich", a doc on Sundance Channel, and "Rich Girls", on MTV, and, as a student of sociology, I have surmised that those born to great wealth actually believe they "earned" it, or if not, then they "deserve" it (due to intelligence, timing, luck, good looks or bloodline). The fallacy in this being that the converse must be true: Those who don't, don't deserve it.

Much time and money is invested in protecting the wealth, and much more is spent on "enjoying" it. They figure if it's in their hands, it was meant to stay in their hands and be appreciated.

It is a condition that is bemoaned by its members, as a "Burden" to maintain, with considerations to family name and reputation (though most know enough dirt on the others to shame them into oblivion), health and longevity, ego support, guilt justification, and the trouble with mating.

The Bible says, "To whom much has been given, much will be required." So the churches and charities are in good shape to receive some portion of the bounty, but only enough to assuage the guilt of a massive shopping excursion or multi-continental party bender with Paris Hilton.

It is truly a sickness, with the patients powerful enough to deny treatment.

[KharmaTrain]

8. Both Sides Of The Mirror

For the middle 20 years of my life, I lived hand-to-mouth...living through those glorious Raygun years always seeing my meger paycheck never keeping up with the ever-rising costs of virtually everything. Guess I was pretty crappy at managing money then.

In the 90's my business took off (thanks to the most Pro-small business environment ever) and soon I went climbed the economic ladder. Then my parents passed away, leaving me a substantial estate...adding to a very comfortable base. I'm the ideal Repugnican now...except I have one thing they don't...a conscious.

I'm certain the doofus who wrote that blurb came from a wealthy family...aka the WhittleAss...whose greatest struggles in life has been waiting in lines and parking their own Audi. The arrogance and ignorance of such people are no uncommon as the divide between those who have and those who don't in this country really start to widen.

If there's a common thread about Repugnicans it's this...they're selfish! The whole concept of their corrupt system is purely on self gratification, and usually on the heads of others. I don't think they'd ever feel they pay enough taxes or support any type of government service (even police and fire) if it didn't directly benefit them.

To clear their bereft minds, they blame and escape responsibility as this is how they've always been conditioned to react and act. There's not a problem that ever has been created at their doorstep, and all answers are from the hides of others.

I know I'm extremely lucky and my hope is to help others rise up as I did...not through subsidizing (like those living off an inheritance), but by empowering. Aw, but to dream...

[Military Brat]

12. I manage my money by not shopping at Wal-Mart

How's that for being fiscally responsible?

:evilgrin:



Edited for clarity

[The Backlash Cometh]

13. The rich are rich because they're better at the game of divide and

conquer. They form cronyistic networks that rely on divisions between "them" and "us." Then the insider information is all it takes to give them the advantage at being "better at managing their money."

And let's face it, money creates money -- and not all legally. Take a look at how those hedge funds benefited select wealthy investors.

I've been saying it for a long time, if you want to get rid of social programs such as Affirmative Action, you first have to take away the privileges that are given to the top 10% of the people in this country -- who are generally white.

[KharmaTrain]

17. Yes, Money Makes Money

Unless you live like a drunken sailor, and then deserve to loose it all, anyone with money can't help but make more.

I'll earn more in savings and investments that I'll spend, and the money I don't spend gets rolled over thus making more money and so on. It's the ultimate Repugnican welfare system since most of this new "earned wealth" is from stocks and government bonds earned on the backs of the "little people" who should never be seen nor heard from.

It's against human nature to have a truly equitable economic system, but at least we can create an even playing field for all who enter our system and destroy the chrony capitalism and corporate welfare that are decaying this nation.

[evil_orange_cat]

14. Biggie put it best...

"if you aren't born with a silver spoon up your ass, you have to have a wicked jump shot, or you're slingin' crack..."

that sums up poverty and class movement in America...

[eyeontheprize]

19. Look at AWOL

He is rich and never made a dime. If he had to fend for himself he'd be poor.

[DuctapeFatwa]

20. 90 odd % of poor in the US are mothers and their children

living in situations where the father has chosen not to participate in the financial costs of raising the children, or is unable to do so due to having been subsumed into the justice system.

[Yupster]

23. It seems like

this is something we should be able to do something about.

How can we get young people to undertand that having sex and having babies before they're educated will be a road to poverty. We've known this for a long time, and yet it continues year after year.

[ikojo]

24. When my mom and dad divorced in the late 1960s our

standard of living went from comfortable middle class to very poor. My dad was ordered to pay child support but did not do so on a regular basis.

Because my mom had been a housewife she was not able to get a good paying job and when she did get one with a future, my dad harrassed her so much that she was asked to leave.

She then took an office job for a small plumbing supply business and was paid a whopping $1.00 per hour to start! Woo hooo! It was not until the very late '70s that she made around $6.00 per hour. By then she had only two kids at home (me and my younger, now deceased, brother).

Some will ask why didn't my mom seek other employment? Well, she had been married for 13 years to a man who was not only physically abusive but emotionally abusive as well. That she wsa able to find a job when she felt like she was a zero was a miracle. She felt a sense of loyatly to the company that hired her after she was asked to leave the hospital (the job with a future).

We had it rough growing up. It was not because my mom was a poor money manager. There wasn't ANY MONEY TO MANAGE. She did the best she could on what little she made.

Oh, and my dad...he remarried a couple of days after he divorced my mom and lived very well on the wealthy side of town. He and his new family moved to Florida. I would see him once a year when he came up to Illinois. He died in 1983. IF there was any life insurance I am sure his widow and her kids (they had one son together while he was still married to my mom) received whatever money there was.

When two of my sisters went down to Florida for the memorial service they introduced themselves as "X's kids from Illinois" and his friends in Florida said, "oh I didn't know X had any other children."

While this was my experience I don't know if I could say that 90% of people who are poor are that way only because the majority are headed by a woman. There are many poor families where both parents are in the home but don't make enough money at their crappy jobs.

[DuctapeFatwa]

32. It is not because women do not have ability, but women still earn less

Even in the best of cases, where women are hired to do the same job, she will earn on the average about 78 cents for every dollar her male co-worker will earn.

And (to address a point someone else made), while there are far too many "children having children," they are still in the minority.

Typically, even when a couple is married, when they divorce, income for the woman will fall 40 to 50%, while income for the man will increase.

Thus, the woman is left with 100% of the responsibility, financial and otherwise for the children.

It's the single greatest cause of "downward mobility" in the US.

To return to the kids having kids, probably the most effective strategy would be if teenaged boys, instead of telling the girl she is beautiful and he loves her prior to sexual activity, would explain that if for whatever reason, she ends up pregnant, it is her problem, he is totally out of there, and will not be providing funds for either termination of the pregnancy or financial support for the child.

[Yupster]

44. In the best of cases,

women and men work for a job that has a posted salary scale and make the exact same amount of money.

The job that employs the most women, schoolteaching pays on such a salary scale. It is posted for everyone to see, and everyone with 8 years experience and a BA make the same amount of money. However, even schoolteachers, the average man teacher who is 45 years old makes significantly more than the average woman teacher who is 45 with a BA. How can this be when they're both paid on the same schedule?

[Silverhair]

61. You ignore basic biological reality.

Teenage boys have extremely high harmone levels. No matter what you teach to them, they will say whatever it takes to get sex. That is all there is to it. It an unchangable fact of life that no amount of demonstrations, performance art or anything else will change.

Historically, all societies have handled this problem by teaching the woman to be careful. Even in animals, the female makes the male invest some courtship energy to prove he is worthy. The male bird has to help build the nest before he gets to mount the female bird. Hundreds of millions of years of evolution are at work, and can't be overcome by some teach-ins.

[DuctapeFatwa]

71. Choices fathers make are influenced by culture

In the US, regardless of lip service and hype, it is still essentially acceptable for a male to impregnate a female, with or without benefit of marriage, civil or religious, and leave her with the offspring at any time he chooses.

Society will offer her little help. For all those same millions of years of the subjugation of women, or as you so delicately put it, "teaching women to be careful," women have remained human beings with their own hormones and desires, and neither the Catholics nor the Calvinists nor the Taliban has been able to change that, though not for want of trying.

Oppression of women is the most effective way to control a SOCIETY that humans have found. Literate women teach their children to read, and economically empowered women are more likely to spend their earnings on things that will benefit their kids and their community, as opposed to the King or feudal lord.

In return for the societal costs you pay, you receive a sense of half-baked theological righteousness, and in the case of men, the privilege of killing and maiming and dying to make rich men richer.

I believe that Orthodox Jewish men say a daily prayer thanking God for not making them women.

[ikojo]

21. Myth of class mobility in the US: Doug Henwood

For those who think it's SO easy to move up the class ladder in the US, please click here and read the transcript from a recent Now with Bill Moyers program....

http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript_henwood.html

BRANCACCIO: Give us a sense of where we are, with our working lives. Here, now, in the 21st Century. There are challenges of the low-wage work. But what about, you know, with some new skills, some education, maybe those workers can lift themselves up into the middle class? Or maybe their children could.
HENWOOD: Well, if they're lucky. But the record of upward mobility in the United States is not anywhere near as happy as a lot of people would like to think. Most people stay roughly in the income category they were born into. That their parents occupied.

And the United States isn't particularly mobile compared to other countries. We think of this as the great land of upward mobility, but that's really not that much more mobile in either direction than western Europe. And we also have a very, very large low-wage workforce. About the largest in the northern hemisphere.

There is more at the website.

[Yupster]

22. Inherited wealth is overrated

As a stockbroker, I just don't see much of it. Most people who do inherit money, get it at age 60 + and by then it dosn't do them a whole lot of good.

It's different if your name is Kennedy or Rockefeller, but there just aren't that many families in that situation.

[SheilaT]

26. It's true that not very many people

inherit huge sums of money, but even a small inheritance can make a huge difference. It can provide a floor or even a boost. A lot of today's middle class kids are leaving college with very large loan debt. They start out working life in the whole. A kid whose parents can afford to pay for college, or whose grandparents do so -- which is pretty common with upper middle-class grandparents -- doesn't start out in debt. Makes a difference.

Here's something else: People who retire from the military after 20 or more years have a lifelong income guarantee that's pretty darn good. There are almost no other jobs out there with that kind of generous retirement. And yes, I do realize that a certain sacrifice was made, but often ex-military defend their entitlement as if no other job out there requires any similar sacrifice. Well, guess what? A lot of lousy, dangerous jobs exist, many of which don't pay as well as the military officer corps, and definately don't give good retirement benefits after only 20 years.

[DuctapeFatwa]

34. Good point! Even the down payment for a home, or an insurance policy

can mean the difference between a hand-to-mouth existence and a life of adequate comfort.

Although that's not what we generally think of when we say "inherited wealth," there are plenty of couples "starting out" who would not be able to afford a home of their own without a boost from somebody's parents, and although an insurance policy of 50 or 100 thousand dollars will not make anyone rich, used wisely, (the example of paying off school loans is a good example) it can keep someone from being quite so poor as they would have been without it.

And it makes it easier to see how those who didn't have money for school in the first place, and whose parents had neither money for down payment gifts nor life insurance beyond the basic burial policy, are extremely unlikely to mobilize upward :)

[oneighty]

68. Nonsense

Military are on call twenty four hours a day every day for their twenty years or so. Aside from danger.

180

[ikojo]

28. I have a friend who has not inherited her money

because her daddy makes regular deposits into her and her sibling's trust funds. I guess there are more tax breaks when money is gifted rather than bequested as part of an estate.

Well, this friend is in her 40s and does not work regularly. She has a sizeable trust fund created soley by her daddy. As a matter of fact none of her siblings work. They do not have to.

So, while her money may not be inherited she still has a boat load that she did not earn, other than by being born into a rich family.

[pippin]

33. hey! watch your agism!

re":Most people who do inherit money, get it at age 60 + and by then it dosn't do them a whole lot of good. "

People over sixty aren't exactly walking corpses! Those with disposable income have time to do the things they were too busy to do while working and raising families. In my travels I meet seventy, eighty and even ninety year olds who are ardent travellers who are still students of life. For others of a certain age with money, If they have a social conscience theyare often the ones who make donations and help others in need. So don't knock the older folks who do happen to have either inherited or made some money. (comments made with a friendly rap on the head) :-)

[Yupster]

45. No spanking necessary

What I meant is that by age 60, most of the people I deal with (I'm a stockbroker) have made it financially. An inheritance at that point is nice, but the things they've wanted to save for, we have already done.

Cool story.

When I joined my company 13 years ago, I was assigned an account and asked if I'd call a lady in a nearby small town. She had $ 120,000 in a mutual fund. No one had talked to her in 30 years. When I called her, she said "do I really have $ 120,000?"

A friend of hers joined our firm 30 years ago and she gave him $ 2,000 to invest to be a good friend. He didn't make it, quit and moved. She knew her money was somewhere, but didn't know where. Over the years the numbers got bigger and 30 years later I called her. She said she would have loved to have taken the money out and spent it, but she didn't know how. We put the money into much safer places, and now 13 years later it's worth anout $ 270,000. We send her $ 1,000 per month. The point of the story is that everyone can save something, and even small savings over long periods of time will amount to a lot. If you save money to buy a car and then buy the car, that isn't saving though. That's my cool true story.

[Occulus]

42. do you know, though

if I had been born with even a $10,000 trust, I would have made out very nicely at age 18 or 21, depending on whether the money was managed wisely. That would have at least paid for college.

My mom's a conservative Rethug (yes, THUG, this woman has always been very caustic to me) who has over $200,000 in investments, got $56,000 in an envelope on her doorstep in unexpected insurance money this past summer, and wrote a check for her Cadillac- yet somehow doesn't have enough cash on hand to get the piano tuned, which she promised to do for me as a birthday gift- eight years ago. She won't do it until I get it moved into my apartment, and that's something I can't afford to do right now and she knows it.

I honestly don't think it's being a Repub that causes that kind of behavior, though; I think it's a love of money that causes it. Love of money is, after all, the root of all evil.

Money is a kind of drug in a great many ways, and it's a bit of an addiction that's forced upon us all at birth. However, the absence of this artificial substance -one not required by nature for us to survive- can lead to starvation, destitution, loss of dignity, poor health in general, etc.

We need a better way.

[Liberator_Rev]

25. Direct Conservatives to LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/GODvsGreed

If there's any chance that there is still a little juice going to their brains, you might try directing people who express such views to

http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/GODvsGreed .


See what Christ might say about the "Christian Coalition" & "Religious Right" imposters.

[pippin]

29. conservatives forget the very rich

in our culture who get rich by being sports figures, movie stars, models and and music types.

Many of them get rich through promotion not necessarily talent. Never figured out why those dumb talking heads on tv need to earn six figures for reading teleprompters. These types sometimes become bankrupt either because they have incompetent managers, or are bad at handling money.

[DiverDave]

30. What the hell

is this persons problem?
An adult that has this conclusion is an idiot.
HELLOOOO! Critical thinking anyone?
The sad thing is that there a lots that believe this crap.
God help us...

[eleny]

35. I hope you send a letter to the editor responding

I just sent them one. Here's the email addy [email protected].

[quaker bill]

43. The rich

are rich because they have lots of money.

The poor are poor because they don't.

Most of the rich hire professionals to manage their money.

[camero]

52. The rich are rich because

They don't give away thier money. They use every excuse in the book not to pay the people that help them fairly, thus keeping more of thier wealth.

The poor are more likely to be kinder and help others in need.

[davekriss]

47. Some advice for the newly outsourced, downsized, and generally unemployed

Just a reminder to everyone that DuctapeFatwa wrote an excellent series here that dispells many of the right-wing bigoted myths about poverty and shines a light on the genuine, almost insurmountable problems faced by the poor. (If he hasn't, he should edit and publish this series.) The links:

(1) http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=582245
(2) http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=582475
(3) http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=582720
(4) http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=583418
(5) http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=585259
(6) http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=586600
(7) http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=587489
(8) http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=588149
(9) http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=590338

[Nikia]

48. Actually, you have to be better managing money poor

Not everyone who is poor is good at managing money. It is funny that some people think that they should all be good managing money while saying that they don't make very much money because they don't have "skills". I know that my husband and I are not that good at managing money, but we get by because we are not poor income wise. A family making $20,000 per year needs to be much better at managing money to pay their bills and be able to eat than a family making $60,000. A family making $200,000 per year doesn't have to be good at managing money at all if they didn't buy a house or car way out of their price range.

[Mechatanketra]

51. DANGEROUS "insight", that aggravates recession.

It's generally accepted that the economy is like a bloodstream, and its health can be measured by its circulation; a recession is caused by excessive hoarding rather than spending.

The kind of "management" referred to here involves not spending money. Logic would dictate that collecting vast amounts of money that one either can not or will not spend is hoarding. When one is poor, hoarding money can still be a reasonable decision -- but spending a smaller fraction of a larger block of money is just plain dysfunctional behavior.

It may go against all the conventional wisdom Americans have about money matters, but the truth is that it is the wealthy, not the poor (even if on a dole) who are a burden on the economy. They represent "cash drains" -- money goes in, and never comes out. Even the usual default sense of 'investing wealth' these days has become the loan rather than the fee -- a temporary spur to possible activity, but resulting in even more money ending up drained out of the system at the end of the metaphorical day, further aggravating the "hardening of the economy".

[SheilaT]

54. Income and wealth maldistribution.

Too many people don't fully understand just how badly lopsided the wealth and income pyramid is in this country. The top fifth own something like 80% of the wealth, the next fifth only 11%, That leaves three fifths of the people to divide up the remaining 9 percent. Trouble is, about two thirds, maybe three quarters of all people think they're really in the top fifth. Or, if they understand they're not, they fully expect to be.

I believe the inequality is actually greater now than it was in 1929, but I'm feeling too lazy to do a google search and find out for sure.

[Silverhair]

55. I was raised in REAL poverty. My insights:

There are indeed many people who are in poverty through no fault of their own. But most adults are in poverty through bad life choices. I am sorry but that is simply the truth.

Dad had only a 7th grade education, (Left school in 1920.) and worked minimum wage all the time I was growing up. But he NEVER tried to learn a skill that would make more. Every evening when he got home he would watch TV. He could have studied something! We lived in the country so Mom could have had a garden to save on the food bill. Lots of land and free water from the windmill so it could have been a big garden, enough stuff we could have sold some. She didn't. We didn't have hot water or a bathtub or a commode. Just a kitchen sink. (We only bathed occasionally.) Dad could have dug a septic tank and used old 55 gallon drum for it. He didn't. It is a horrible judgement to make on ones own parents, but they were lazy, so we were poor.

By far the majority of poor families that I have known have been poor because the parents in the family were doing something to excess. Booze, laziness, gambling, too many kids, easy divorce (I agree, the gov't should not make people stay together, but divorce usually hurts both parties financially. Most problems can be worked out.)and the list goes on. Vice is expensive, that's why humanity so long ago recgonized that certain types of lifestyles were destructive and labeled those habits a vices.

I pulled myself up by my bootstraps. I joined the Army, learned a marketable skill, served in Vietnam, went to college on the GI Bill, (I do not consider that a handout. I EARNED every penny of it in Vietnam and by being educated have earned more so I have paid more in income taxes. So the gov't got its money back. It was as wise investment by the gov't.)and worked, not only hard but also smart.

There are still opprotunities, but first you have to get off your butt, and you have to avoid the excesses of a life of dissapation.
The classical virtues usually enable one to avoid poverty and attain at least comfortable middle class.

Then, for the few left that are just plain unlucky, I am more than willing to offer help. And of course help for the children.

I realize that this is usually considered a "conservative" position, but it is the result of what I have observed, and to me it is merely common sense.

Flame away. I have put on my flame retardant underwear.

[Zero Division]

57. Talk about coincidences

I hadn't even seen this thread when I posted this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=796922#798122
in the thread about "vile hatred from Democrats".

And it's anti-intellectualism at it's best, too. To even question whether and/or why poorer people have difficulties managing money is to "make excuses" in the minds of anti-intellectual Conservatives.

It's short-sighted, as well. Will someone with the same attitudes as the person who wrote this "gem" even take the time to consider the effects that not attempting to alleviate poverty will have on the rest of society (IOW indirectly affecting the wealthier)? I doubt it.

In truth, statements like this are the real "sad excuse" for intellecutal laziness and short-sighted selfishness.

[durutti]

58. Bullshit on so many levels.

First of all, today's povery guideline are deceptive. They haven't been updated since the 1960s. If poverty today were measured by the same standard as it was then, about a third of the American population would be considered impoverished.

Secondly, the poor exist because the employing class *must necessarily* survive by paying as little as they possibly can to those they employ, while at the same time charging as much as they possibly can for the goods they produce.

Third, the rich don't manage their money any better than the poor. The rich *pay* people to manage their money *for* them.

Last point: people who are relegated to the worst schools, with parents who have to work, etc. obviously won't learn as much about money management as wealthier people. That's not to say that the rich actually *do* manage their money any better: but while the money managment skills of the poor may suffer due to lack of education, the money management skills of the rich suffer to that classs's own decadence. You tell me which is worse.

[dvddrone]

59. We know god loves the rich more!

And Jesus said, "Blessed are the rich, for they are fat contributors to their local parish on Bingo night." and "Helpeth thou the rich and scorneth thou the poor, for thusly shall only the right sort of people gaineth entrance to my father's house."

Oh, it went something like that, anyway. Ahem.

So, it's an old song here and elsewhere in the world and it's based in fuckwitted religiosity. If god loves you, you'll be rich and god WANTS you to be rich because you are good. If god hates you, you'll be poor and god WANTS you to be poor because you are bad. It's all the biggest bullshit game ever and, of course, believed and beloved by Republicans (and - sadly - by some Republicrats). Reagan was particularly fond of his "the poor deserve it because they are stupid and evil scum" rant - and imo it's his true legacy to the American people. When I was young, a skillion or so years ago and pre-Ron, it was unacceptable for Americans to kick the poor. Good old Ronnie - who would DARE to write a mean screenplay about HIM and that psychotic hag he married?

SAVE THE RICH! Have YOU helped a rich guy today? Take a rich gal to lunch - at Le Cirque! Hey buddy, can ya spare 50k for some stock options? Puke.

Elizabeth

[camero]

60. Exactly

Whatever happened to "Abase the high and exalt the low"? Jesus told us to do that.

[Zero Division]

62. Max Weber, The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism

That's the book I thought of as soon as I saw your subject title.
A must read for any Liberal interested in the Conservative ideological justifications for indifference and animosity toward the poor.

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/WEBER/cover.html

[camero]

70. It's rooted in Calvinism

Which is just a twisting of the meaning of Christ's teachings.

[Nikia]

64. Actually middle class and above kids are worse off when poor

Children raised in poverty or with working poor parents know what it is like to be without and have seen tricks of juggling bill payments and how to use coupons and buy things on sale. When they start out with a relatively low paying job, they often are better off than young adults of more privleged families who didn't have trouble paying their bills and bought pretty much whatever they wanted it when they wanted it. If their families don't bail them out, these are the people who have trouble managing money. If someone has $30 per week after paying bills, the poor kid will have plenty to eat. The richer kid already bought two cds.

[Nikia]

65. The quote only really works at the upper end

The super rich are usually good at investments whereas there are people with middle to high income that save a good deal of money, but will never be as rich as the "rich" even if they are saving an equivalent amount of money. Someone saving $20,000 per year that puts it in a 1% per year savings account will have much less than someone investing $20,000 per year in growing stocks. The savings account saver will have a comfortable retirement and maybe something to give their descendents. The high growth investor will be rich. If your income is only $20,000, you obviously don't have $20,000 per year to save.

[jiacinto]

66. That's BS

While he does have a point about money management it's not the entire picture. When you have little job opportunity and bad schools that also plays a role in it.

[dawgman]

67. BS the poor are poor because they are lazy. Rich folk work harder.

just kidding.

[Terwilliger]

69. conservatives who oppose Darwin use his virtues in their social outlook

think about it: the ultimate end of capitalism...survival of the most materialism-obsessed group of people to hit the planet because of their money

That's just wonderful to look forward to.