Cali DUers... Your thoughts on Davis recall.

[a_random_joel]

Here's what I'm thinking. For starters, I don't care how uncharasmatic or shitty Gray Davis is doing - He was elected by a majority only 8 short months ago. The will of the people should not be overturned by some criminal millionaire with a personal agenda who wants to buy the governorship.

This is a slap in the face to Democracy. So on those grounds ALONE I will be supporting Gray Davis. But furthermore, to blame Davis for Cali's budget woes, when nearly every other state in the union's budets, AND the federal budget are also in such a sorry state, is ludicrous and hypocritical. And don't even get me started on the ENRON energy market manipulation which Bush and his cronies facilitated and have refused to address.

So I WILL be voting for Gray. I urge all of you to do the same and spread the word. This is nothing short of a paper coup.

[salmonhorse]

1. Republicans need to cease & desist post haste...

...with their insatiable fiddle-fucking with the electoral system of American politics everywhere!!!

[molly]

2. How much for this fiasco - 30 million?

I hope you guys get out there and make fools of those pugs!

[wryter2000]

3. I'm not in love with Davis

But it's ridiculous to hold him responsible for what Pete Wilson (energy deregulation), Ken Lay (stealing our surplus), and George W. Bush (ruining the entire country's economy) have done.

I'll be voting for Davis

[Clete]

4. Regardless of what you read in the media

Californians who voted for Davis in the first place are not turning against him. Every Democrat in my town is as disgusted with this Republican coup as DU'ers are.

I think there is another question that needs to be addressed when this recall over. How do we prevent this abuse of the initiative system by the PNAC and other rogue political groups in the future? Yes, I do blame the PNAC for the power grab, although I can't prove it yet. But it makes sense that California and its liberal majority stands in the way of complete control of the electoral system.

[Woodstock]

8. But will they show up to vote "no" to the recall?

They are rushing this through and holding it months before the regular elections.

I heard the state must scramble to change their plans for using the new voting machines, instead using the old ones.

This is the Bush Crime Family's Florida "job" part II.

[Clete]

16. They will without question.

Everyone is really pissed about this.

[Demobrat]

5. Of course I'll be voting for Davis.

This isn't about him, it's about rich Repukes buying an election they couldn't win fairly.

[LWolf]

6. We can't vote for Davis.

We can vote "no" on the recall, and I will certainly do so.

I've listened to all of the options and positions floating around, and I have to say that I am not comfortable with not having a dem choice. Many Californians who do not pay attention, even dems, are convinced everything is the Gray Guy's "fault." If we don't get 50% + 1 no votes, I want someone solid to take his place.

[a_random_joel]

7. Thanks for the correction.

That's what I meant, of course.

I will be voting "NO" to the Recall, which is effectively voting "Yes" for Gray.

[LWolf]

9. I hope it works that way.

What will you do about the 2nd vote...choosing another should the recall be successful? That's the part I'm really conflicted about.

[Woodstock]

11. But on the same ballot is who do you want, isn't that so?

So voting no to "Do you want the recall" but

either not choosing someone on the part where it says, "If the recall is sucessful, who do you want?" - or choosing someone else

means you've voted Gray in a sense, but you also did not vote for him

Am I wrong? I thought both questions were on the same ballot.

[Hanuman]

18. I don't actually think that's right

I think the ballot will be intwo parts- first part is straight yes or no on the recall.

Second part will be who you want to vote for. Davis WILL be a candidate on the second part. So you can still vote "no" AND you can vote for Davis. That is, "if there are enough votes for the recall to happen, who do you cast your vote for?" Davis.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

23. No way

You are right that the ballot will be 2 parts, but Davis can't possibly be a candidate on the 2nd part. He can't be voted out and then voted in as his own replacement. I think the Dem plan is to have no one on the ballot for the Dems.

I do wonder what would happen if a majority WROTE IN Davis as the replacement.

[Hanuman]

31. With all due respect- I'm almost positive you're wrong

Everything I've heard goes against what you are saying. Of course I have not seen the ballot, but I can't imagine why Davis would not be given a slot on the card.

The first question is "Do you want to recall the governor?"

The next question is almost a completely different thought: "Who should be the next governor?"

This means that if you vote no on the first one- and even if 51% vote yes, you STILL have a chance to keep Davis in by voting for him on the next question.

This is similar to the ballot we had when the Valley was considering secession.

1. "Do you want to secede from LA?"
2. "What do you want to call the new city?"

Even if you voted no, you could STILL cast a vote for your favorite name, on the chance it passed- Camelot, of course!

[Mz Pip]

33. Nope

Davis cannot be on the second part of the ballot. The second part of the ballot only kicks in if there are a majority of Yes on the recall votes.

Anyone who votes, either yes or no can vote on the second part.

It's sort of like saying "No, I don't want Davis recalled, but if he is, ______________ is my choice for his replacement."

Or "Yes, I want Davis recalled and ________________ is my choice for replacement."

A No vote is essentially a vote FOR Davis.

MzPip
:dem:

[Hanuman]

34. Where are you getting this info?

I have heard Issa and others describe the ballot- and that's how it was described.

[Hanuman]

35. I've looked in the press and don't see a clear answer -

But I suppose it's somewhat of an irrelevant point anyway.

[Hanuman]

47. MEA CULPA!!! You are right!

Humble apologies and an "atta boy!" from me.

Just heard from a squawk-jock here in LA, the John and Ken Show, KFI 640. Davis WILL NOT be on the ballot.

Dang! Now it's ABSOLUTELY IMPERITIVE to have a dem on the ballot. Otherwise the choice is a cruddy dem (Davis) or a republican.

[heidiho]

10. I think it's an abomination and a bad precedent to set

But I'll go along with it if it means that we can recall BUSH!

[redeye]

14. We can't

The California constitution has a procedure for recalling elected officials. The US constitution does not.

[hotphlash]

12. I hate what the Repugs are doing, BUT...

Grey Davis IS doing a lousy job.

[Noli Mitangere]

25. .

regrettably, he is.

[a_random_joel]

27. On what grounds do you base this?

The budget crisis? Does that mean that 47 other states' governors are also doing a lousy job?

[redeye]

13. I will be voting against Davis...

...mainly because he's a Republicrat who hasn't done anything to stop Enron's rape of California. Retroactively, I'm enraged at the CIA and FBI for not stopping 9/11 almost as much as I am with Al Qaida for perpetrating it, and I know that I can do a lot more to change the CIA and FBI than to destroy Al Qaida. Similarly, I can't do anything to get Enron et al to stop raping California, but I can replace the governor with someone who'll stand up to them.

And I agree with the idea of having a recall vote. Davis might've won fair and square, but his approval rate is on a par with Nixon's at his lowest and I can see the Republicans splitting the right-wing vote, possibly letting Camejo become governor. And even if they don't, then the governor will prolly be Ahnold, whose main vice IMO is that he isn't exactly genious or overly compassionate ("Michael Winner is more than a friend to me - he's a complete stranger"), and even he will be far better than Issa.

In the recall vote, I'll probably vote yes on the recall and Camejo on the replacement (I might reconsider if the recall is close and the replacement is safely Republican).

[Mz Pip]

26. I hear that a lot

That Davis mishandled the energy crisis. However, I have not heard one person give a thoughtful response on how they would have handled it differently. It's such a blame the victim mentality. Do we blame the little old lady for getting mugged because she couldn't kick her mugger in the balls fast enough?

The CA energy crisis was a well thought out crime of opportunity. Ever wonder why Cheney wouldn't release the names of the people in his Energy Task Force? Tell me what Davis could have done differently at the time. Hindsite is terrific and maybe after a year and a half you can come up with something, but to date I haven't heard anything other than put downs of Davis.

Don't expect some Repug to stand up to BushCo and his cronies.

MzPip
:dem:

[qandnotq]

36. Davis & the energy crisis

I will vote against the recall. But, I am very unimpressed with Davis. Here is my view of how he mismanaged the energy crisis.

The problem was not of Davis's making. But, given the problem inherent in a poorly designed market & FERC's refusal to step in, he should have made some tough choices.

The price consumers paid was set by law & not linked to the wholesale power rates. Thus, despite the fact that wholesale power was *extremely* expensive, the price to consumers did not rise. Therefore, their consumption did not fall significantly. However, Davis committed the State to paying for this wholesale power at whatever rate it took to supply consumer demand. So, either the taxpayers or the ratepayers are eventually going to have to pay throught the nose to bail out the state.

Instead, he should have passed on the price immediately to consumers in the form of higher rates. This would have two useful effects. First, power consumption would have fallen dramatically as consumers reacted to the price hike. Second, the ability of the producers to manipulate the market would have been severely curtailed exactly because of the demand response. These two effects together would have have solved the crisis and saved the state billions of dollars.

Davis showed no political courage. He was so afraid that consumers would get angry at short term rate hikes that he screwed the state finances for a decade to come. We pay market prices for gas, bread, medicine, rent, beer, .... Why he got so panicked about charging a market rate for electricity escapes me. But the consequence of his lack of political courage during the electricity crisis was devastating to this state. When you are buying electricity for 100 times the price you sell it, you are going to lose some serious money.

[a_random_joel]

28. What could he have done?

He went to FERC and they told him, "Sorry, Pal". He went to Bush, and Bush basically said California'a problems were California's problems. Bush knew this would be pinned on Davis, even though the problem originated from ENRON, the kind folks who contributed to his campaign, and let him borrow some Jets to go to Florida during the Recounts. What mighty weapon can Davis wield against such a powerful alliance? The media's certainly been no help...

SO what the hell was Davis supposed to do? Even now, when an Enron Exec PLEAD GUILTY to the market manipulation, and 2 years into the CHENEY STONEWALL of his energy task force meeting minutes and docs, who do you expect Davis to turn to for help?

Rove and BushCO have been against Cali from day 1. This follows a consistent pattern for them:
1. Create a problem
2. Profit from the problem; allow your cronies to profit from the problem
3. Blame the problem on the opposition party.

This is the MO for Team Bush and the RNC. We have seen it played out time and time again inthe past 2 and a half years.

[Ardee]

44. He did nothing, exactly the wrong thing!

PGE practically begged Davis to allow them to sign long term locked in contract prices for energy, Davis refused. The CPUC sets the price that PGE can charge for electricity(approx.$.05/KWH)and at the height of the energy ripoff PGE was paying almost $0.75/KWH not exactly a recipe for a healthy corporation.

Davis was enamored of the spot market which, over the preceeding several years had been a very good way to acquire cheap energy. The corporate heads of PGE saw that the spot market was becoming a rather risky bet but couldnt persuade Davis of this, thus the almost bankrupting of PGE and the rip offs of California consumers was not of Davis' doing certainly but his lack of foresight and his unwillingness to listen to anyone, long term Davis deficiencies, make him culpable.

Having said that I join the chorus in finding this recall to be another in a series of heinous and unfair ploys by the right wing which seeks to overturn a legitimate election and fervently hope that a vast majority of Californians will vote NO.

[a_random_joel]

46. Not exactly

The situation you describe is a direct result of the deregulation, which was accepted and promoted by Gray's predecessor: our good friend Pete Wilson. Gray simply played by the deregulation rules, which at the time seemed logical. Hindsight is always 20/20, my friend.

Nevertheless, once the situation HAD occurred, Davis was forced to play the hand he was dealt, and when he went to the Feds to step in, they laughed in his face.

Payback's a bitch in the biggest blue state...

[Hell Hath No Fury]

15. I will be voting "no"...

on the recall.

As mentioned in other threads, everyone I know is also doing to be voting no.

It's going to come down to voter turnout, and I think having Ward Connelly's proposition to essentially end affirmative action statewide on teh same ballot is going to help our side.

[maveric]

17. A true blow to democracy! A true sham.

The big issue that is being used against him is the energy crisis of 2001. Now that was when he was in his 1st term and despite the severe spike in energy prices(Enron),he still won a second term after the fact.

This is a true slap in the face to the voters of CA and to the true foundation of demoracy.

So a rich right winger and his jackals can shell out millions of dollars to initiate a recall and smear a governor in the process and have him deposed?

Aint that the true american way.
I hope that the people of CA are smart enough to see through the fog.

Now where I live in CA (San Diego), Davis is toast and most that I talk to have bought the bait cast out there by Issa. Hopefully the more moderate areas (LA county...), and the left leaning regions (Bay area) will make the difference and quell this coup.

And Gawwd help us if AHnold is elected.

[Hanuman]

19. Well, I'm pretty troubled by it all...

I look at it like this. I don't believe Davis is a good governor and leader. He and I might share some ideology, and I might have voted for him (the first time, not this last time), but frankly, he hasn't impressed me AT ALL.

Yes, I think the move by conservatives to recall is politically motivated (Duh...) but it IS legal. CA constitution makes it so.

It's fair. We can recall a Pub guv through exactly the same mechanism- and we should, if the circumstances make it obtainable. If the votes and the WILL of the people make it possible. Turnabout is always fair play. Right?

I will probably vote "no," but I will not choose Davis as a candidate. I really hope that a strong, principalled democratic leader sucks it up and puts his or her name on the ballot. I will vote for that person. In lieu of that- I will vote a third party candidate.

[JustinCredible]

20. That would be soooooo sweet.

If we ousted Davis and elected a MORE liberal governor. That would make all this worth it.

Alas.... I don't think it will be what happens. But boy would it give me a BIG BIG laugh. :)

[Hanuman]

32. It's ENTIRELY possible

That's one reason why not to fear or loath this recall. It actually could put a more liberal governor in Davis' place. In fact, this recall, in my opinion could elect a green, a libertarian, or another democrat- maybe even more probably than a republican.

The fact is, there may be SEVERAL repubs on the ballot, splitting their votes, but if only one other dem runs against Davis- that Dem is almost a shoe-in, in my humble opinion.

No this is going to be a net-gain for CA. Sorry Joel. Davis isn't worth the effort.

[realFedUp]

21. Question on absentee ballots

When anyone finds out if and when absentee ballots
will be mailed out, would you post it in a separate thread
please so we can find it.
Thanks.

[VOX]

22. It seems that Rethugs just don't like legitimate elections...

Before, during or after they take place. Impeach Clinton. Block Gore's 2000 victory. Now this right-wing funded attempt to recall Davis.

We should be screaming our outrage in the streets.

I'm not crazy about Gray Davis, but it's clear that the problems in California are not solely his doing. I voted for him last year, and I will vote for him again -- even though it will cost the taxpayers around $35 million to to so (thanks, GOP).

We've got to stick together on this one. It's not really about Gray Davis -- it's another right-wing power grab -- they want California, and it has eluded their grasp for so long; they see a chance to steal it, and they're trying to do so.

If we turn our backs on Gray Davis -- the legitimately elected governor -- then we open the doors to the right-wing money machine operating in California, which would virtually assure the 2004 election for Bush*.

Stay With Gray.

[nansocal]

24. I voted for davis before

and I shall do so again. they voided our votes in 2000, but they won't do the same now.

[Regice]

29. I think Davis should go!

There I said it! :P

He has screwed up too badly and is a liability to the Democratic party. 8 months ago he ran against a bumbling idiot, and barely won then. Despite the motivations of the sponsors, Californians will have another opportinity to express their will.

There are plenty of people (yes Demos) that feel the same way I do. Davis messed up and should go. My hope is that a suitable replacement steps up and moves this state in the right direction. Davis gives all Democrats a bad name.

[Mz Pip]

30. And that suitable replacement

will be who??? Darryl Issa? Michael Savage?

MzPip
:dem:

[Regice]

38. I don't know, but Davis has to go!!!!!!!

Nobody has stepped up yet.

Nader maybe????

[a_random_joel]

37. Then I suppose you think Democracy should go

He's a screw up and a liability, BUT he was ELECTED by the will of the people. There is a recourse, it's called the NEXT election.

This is a very dangerous precedent to set, and a dark road to set out on. At what point do people stand up for our system, regardless of the performance of our officials?

[redeye]

50. Recalls...

...are completely legal, as outlined in the CA constitution. They are also completely ethical when the governor's approval rate is in the 20s.

Let's say it that way: would you have supported a recall Nixon campaign in 1973, if it had been possible to do so?

[loudsue]

39. This whole argument is moot since they're going to use the

computerized voting machines.

It's GOING TO BE A REPUG victory if they use those machines.

If they don't, it's anybody's guess.

But from what I understand, they're going to...which is ANOTHER repug coup chalked up to posterity.

(I wish they'd chalk a nuke up their "posterity!")

[musiclawyer]

40. Gray made a bad thing worse

So what if he inherited the mess. He could have cleaned it up. Gray represents the worst possible traits of politicians--self indulgent, insensitive, in bed with his donors, and in power for power's sake and not to serve all the residents of CA. I used to be as demo as you can be but.... Gray must go. Radical sh-t happens in CA and it's about to happen again. A green governor, who's going to spearhead change to the antiquated tax structure, budget process, and electoral process in CA. It always starts here remember.......

[ronnykmarshall]

41. Dream on ...

It ain't gonna happen. I wish it would and the GOP would have spent a shitload of money and come up empty handed.

The more and more I read about this, the more I wish that a Democrat was on the ballot.

[confusionisnext]

49. I will NO on the recall

As will my decline-to-state significant other. Bullocks on this craven powergrab by the right. I agree with a_random_joel: I think Gray was dealt a bad hand, and his critics on the energy "crisis" are all Monday night quarterbacking. On the budget: the governor proposes and the legislature disposes, and with a 2/3 vote requirement, Dems are HAMSTRUNG.

Ronnykmarshall, I just heard on the radio that a Democrat will be running: Audie Bock. She has a bit of an identity crisis though: she was a Green (first Green to be elected to state office in CA) then Independent (when she got her ass kicked by Democrat Wilma Chan), and now she's a Dem again. The worst thing about her is her defunct dumpbarbaralee.com where she wrote "Ms. Lee cowers behind her bodyguards, knowing she has wronged both the living and the dead, America and the world. Her message is to turn your back on your heritage, your countrymen and women and your president." Bock needs to up her meds.

[a_random_joel]

43. Please

Gray represents the worst possible traits of politicians

You are new here, so I'll cut you some slack. But I must ask, which politicians do you know of who are NOT characterized by the traits you mention? That's unfortunately a problem with our system.

I hope you aren't suggesting that the guy behind this fiasco, Mr. Issa, doesn't share these traits with Gray? Particularly self-indulgent and insensitive and trying to be in power for power's sake. I hope you aren't suggesting that, because that would be silly. Really silly.

Thanks for the laugh today, my friend.

[stevebreeze]

42. my best guess is this might backfire like Clinton's impeachment.

just as I see it from the midwest.

[Piperay]

45. Reporkers can't win an election so

they steal them. The reporkers have no regard for democrazy, they make me...:puke: :puke: :puke:

[Kanola]

48. I am not a Gray Davis lover but..

This is utter political bullshit from the RW agenda. This is going to cost us Californians even more money for this trying to steal an election. I will definetly vote against the recall because I am not convinced that Davis has created the mess we have in California. I has been going on for years.

If a Repug does win office, they will be up againist a pissed of Dem majority in the legislator. Either way, the Repugs are digging their own political graves. My other prediction is that this state will not go to Shrub 43.