Wes Clark on FACE THE NATION--Official thread

[wndycty]

Coming up on FACE THE NATION--Gen. Wes Clark!

[wndycty]

1. Bush's ads violate his pleadge not to exploit 9/11

:kick:

[IndianaGreen]

87. No!!!!! Do you think Bush won't use 9/11 as a backdrop?

Do think Bush will not paint his opponents as terrorist supporters, or say that those that call for US withdrawal want Saddam back?

Even Clark will be smeared as unpatriotic and an appeaser, so we might as well learn to attack Bush back by showing pictures of dead Americans on TV while a narrator says that they died looking for WMDs that Bush knew did not exist.

[Renew Deal]

109. You are right.

Did you see the article yesterday that th eFBI is checking out protesters. And it was reported on DU that Mike Savage said the protesters in London were full of terorists and Al Queda operatives.

[Robin Hood]

145. And Neil Boortz said

that the head organizers of the London protests were part of communist groups and leaders of mosques.

[Deja Q]

132. Exactly right

There is no other way.

If bush is going to lie, betray, and distort (as he has all along), we need to respond with the truth in the most shocking way possible.

Sad but true.

[wndycty]

2. I am not attacking Bush because he is attacking the terrorists. . .

...I am attacking him because he is not attacking the terrorists.

[Nashyra]

4. We should honor those who have sacrificed

this administration is trying to cover up, trying to dishonor those who sacrificed. Here we go ahead "what you said before'

[wndycty]

Hopefully he will handle it well

:kick:

[wndycty]

6. How he handles this is crucial

Lets hope he does well.

[MIMStigator]

100. It was a perfect answer in a perfect performance

Clark was awesome.

[wndycty]

3. He called on the GOP to take the ads. . .

He said they are an attemtpt to impune the patriotism of the Democrats.

[Brucey]

5. I'm not crazy about Clark, but I'm starting to think he's the one

who can win. Bush has the patriotic, school spirit, rah-rah vote. But there are lots of apolitical people who are afraid, and they just might go for Clark. Plus he's from the south, and we could sure use a win in one or two southern states. I hate military people running the government, but this is one time I might go along.

[OKNancy]

13. Clark understands your concerns

Here he makes a joke about "Seven Days in May"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=761461

[Spazito]

56. I despise Shelton for his smears but...

he may have, inadvertently, given Clark a great way to disprove those who say he is of the military-industrial complex. All Clark has to say is, if that is so, why are the "generals" smearing him? Shelton's smears gives Clark more credibility, not less, imo.

[MoonRiver]

77. Yes, I've thought this for some time.

Particularly when you hear Clark's explanation about how he wanted US to go into Bosnia to stop the genocide, but was blocked at every turn by the Pentagon. I believe he's even stated that the military big wigs didn't want to go in because the US had nothing to gain (i.e. oil). The more Repukes attempt this smear campaign the more it will backfire. Clark is completely capable of turning every lie these scum spread to his advantage. And the reason why is very simple. Clark's got truth on his side.

[rucky]

17. It's his tone, as well...

not angry or desperate, but defiant & confident.

that's not a dig on Dean, btw... I feel angry & desperate, that's why I connect with Dean. But Clark, man...he's taking it to the next level - where we need to be, tone-wise.

[xultar]

51. I agree, you said it so eloquently, there is no problem being

angry because we are all angy. I like that Dean is reflecting the anger. That is what is energizing the base and bringing in the small donors. The trick is to take it to the next level, and Clark is doing just that. Taking it to the next level will enable Clark to attract the undecided and swing voters. That is where the race will be won or loss.

General Clark is defiant & confident that is a great observation. Thanks for being fair.

[Renew Deal]

46. I agree

There are a lot of people saying to Clarkies: I like your guy. I am a republican and voted for Bush last time. I don't care for the others.

Clark appeals to the republicans. He has a chance to create new Clark republicans.

[Kahuna]

7. Rumsfeld flip flop...

Ouch. Praised the choice of Rumsfeld in 2000. Then later said he would have never selected Rumsfeld as SOD. Says, Rummy is out of touch with what's happening in the world today.

[wndycty]

8. Hey Schiffer

Is tough. . .if our guy Wes is going to win he has to handle this, we can't complain we just have to hope he works this stuff out.

[Kahuna]

10. I didn't complain. Where did you see me complain?

:shrug:

[wndycty]

21. I did not say you complained. . .

. . .I am just reminding our fellow supporters that this is a process and we need to understand that he is going to be challenged.

[Renew Deal]

31. I didn't take it as anything either.

And I agree with wndy. I bet this story will be on Spewsmax within an hour. They can't get the detail.

[Kahuna]

40. That's what I thought..

:pals:

[buycitgo]

12. schieffer is tough on dems, mostly.....

a Russert wannabe. he gingerly asks pugs the occasional bowtie ruffler, but never follows up.

whereas, he often goes after dems hammer and tong.

not as bad as potato boy, but along the same lines.

and don't forget, ever, that his brother was business partners with the chimp

[MoonRiver]

124. You know all it would take to straighten this out is Wes

stating, correctly I believe, that he 'would never have chosen Rumsfeld had he known what a disaster he was going to be' or something like that. In other words, he doesn't support him now because of Rumsfeld's hideous military tactical and judgment mistakes. I think Rummy was easily approved by the Senate, so a lot of people were fooled.

[DemCam]

133. that he praised Bush's appointment of Rmsfeld

as a man of experience has nothing to do with HIS appointment of Rumsfeld. Thought he was a good man at the time...but he has gone astray along with only Cheney.

This is the distinction I wish Clark had made...but didn't quite.

[MoonRiver]

147. Well, there will be plenty of time.

Its a very logical argument.

For a long time Rummy was about the only appointee of *'s that I could stomach to even look at. I even thought he was kinda cute, like a tow headed mischevious little kid. Now of course we all know he's an incompetent, warmongering, mass murdering snake, worse, in some ways than Ashcroft.

[Nashyra]

9. They are trying to trap him

He has explained this over and over and over and they keep trying to throw him off. This is the worst they have on him and they are trying to drail him. No such luck.

[Nashyra]

11. Same sex marriage

His answer is awesome "if you had a child that is gay?" Cheney's daughter is gay I'd like to see Cheney argue with Wes's point.

[Renew Deal]

14. I think Cheney is for Civil Unions.

[Nashyra]

16. I'm not running to bash George Bush

and then brought up his alcolholism, I love it they might have to adress the issue. If the press tries to pund Clark for bringing this up it will be a field day for the Dems to just mention the facts.

[Renew Deal]

28. Oh yeah... They would be dragging Junior through the gutter.

It is fun for us, but I don't know if it would be good this early overall.

[Bread and Circus]

122. He is, and it proves Wes's point...Cheney has a gay child....

and his political beliefs follow.

Funny how staunch GOP'ers can come around when it affects
"their" family.

[jumptheshadow]

15. He is awesome on the issue of gay marriage

And he laid out the issue in terms that most reasonable Americans can understand. This matters so much to me personally. I have tears in my eyes.

[Renew Deal]

37. He really was.

He has been real good and average on this issue. Like last june on MTP he was excellent. Then at times he would back off a little. Now he is full speed ahead. The hard head haters will never come around on this, but explaining it this way to everyday people is what we need. He may do more the the GLBT community by saying the right things than some people in power.

[Skwmom]

45. If Clark is our next President

I believe he will be able to advance this and other liberal issues in a way no other candidate can because of his four star image.

[Renew Deal]

49. His history is powerful.

You are totally correct. I mean he is a big bad 4 star general. A real all american guy and he is compassionate of this. People can say, if General Clark supports this, maybe I should look at it again.

[xultar]

70. Because of his image and because he attracts the swing

and undecided voters.

[1songbird]

47. You know we are going to hear this

stuff over and over again because the press is out to destroy the Democratic candidates. I wished Wes had worded his comment a bit differently but oh well. It won't dissuade me as a supporter but it just plays into the hands of the opposition. We can't expect the press to do their jobs fairly. They weren't fair in 2000 with Gore and Bush and they won't be fair in 2004.

[Bread and Circus]

18. Clark refers to Bush's history of alcoholism...

The highlight of the interview for me. So subtle,
yet so endearing.

[wndycty]

20. Not to mention a troubled marriage. . .

:kick:

[Nashyra]

23. Clark will get the moderate and swing votes

He is fighting back on "soundbites". I think he did a very good job, he made it clear he was not bashing * personally just that he did not possess the leadership qualities that was needed in todays world.

[Kahuna]

32. The polls already show that. In the bush matchups...

Clark does better than the other candidates. That's because Clark pulls indies and repubs against bush more than the other candidates. Of course you will never hear anyone in the media mention this. We cannot win this election with just Democratic voters.

[Kahuna]

Last week Clark called bush, "unlearned."

:wow: Read: ignorant

[Donna Zen]

60. "...unlearned and inexperienced leader

who is struggling to do the best he can...."

The art of the backhanded compliment. Do Southerners carry that off better than the rest of the country?

[SayitAintSo]

108. Yes Deary .... "bless his heart" ....

Wait for him to apoligize for being so disarming.....:)

[Kahuna]

131. Riiiiiiiiiiiight. That was the quote...

I liked that one. :7

[Bread and Circus]

123. I know, that's so classic...he seems to pity Bush....

it shrinks Bush's stature and enlarges that of the dems.

It's a nice strat

[jumptheshadow]

29. That was good, wasn't it?

He managed to show compassion yet slip in the stilleto on the family values issue.

This guy is growing as a candidate by leaps and bounds every day. I hope there's time!

[wndycty]

30. The quote

It was funny the question really was meant so that he could attack Dean and instead he talked about Bush.

"I am not running to bash George Bush, a lot of Americans really love him, they love what he represents. A man who has over come adversity in his life. From alcoholism and pulled his marriage back together and moved forward. . ."

[Renew Deal]

53. That's a great slap.

I want to repost that. It will get people excited.

[wndycty]

19. Did Clark just say

That Bush has worked his way back from alcoholism and a troubled marriage?

[Renew Deal]

25. I read that somewhere.

I didn't notice him saying that. Did he say that? He would be dragiing George through the Family Values gutter if he did.

[Blue_Roses]

64. Laura Bush has been very vocal

on how "George" acted during the early years of their marriage and evenway after the twins were born. I saw her in an interview and she told him he needed to choose between the Jack Daniels or her.

She makes no bones about how wild he was and how their marriage was in jeopardy many times.

[Nashyra]

26. Yes he did

Let's hope it starts a firestorm of critics because then it will become an issue, not that there is anything wrong with being an alcholholic being one myself(in recovery many years) but the fact that the media has ignored this about him and what part it played in his AWOL.

[Blue_Roses]

68. don't look for them to jump on this

it's really "old" news...seriously...it is.

[Kahuna]

35. Did he? I missed that. I'll have to play back the interview.

nt

[jumptheshadow]

22. This guy will WIN against George Bush

Why can't people see this?

[Kahuna]

27. Because the GOP owned media is hypping Dean as..

the de facto nominee. If people don't believe that the official candidate polls aren't being freeped and that republicans aren't contributing to Dean to force him to be the frontrunner, they haven't been paying attention to how the repukes operate.

[AmericanDem]

42. I agree with your opinion

This is defintely going on. I'm actually taken back at how I see the media manipulating the truth in favor of Bush. This is scary stuff. I truly believe if we don't get Bush out of there, our country, as we now know it, is doomed.

I'm far from a doom sayer, this is true reality!

[wndycty]

44. Time Magazine has been tough on Bush lately. . .at least with its covers

[jumptheshadow]

72. I tend to agree with you

I was lucky enough to get classical journalistic training although I have changed careers. My teachers, who included my grandfather, always stressed the value of objectivity and public service.

I couldn't have imagined what passes for journalism today. Just look at the stories the media hasn't pursued. Valerie Plame. That's one heck of a serious story. Medicare. The overtime bill.

I think the nadir may well have been when Paula Zahn asked Clark if he had inhaled.

[Renew Deal]

24. He was awesome in that interview.

That Rummy thing was new, but he handled it perfectly. This man has such a deep thought and honesty.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

33. A Decent Interview

Loved his answer on civil unions. Loved the backhanded slap at Bush's alcoholism and shaky marriage. Loved how he again refused to attack a fellow Dem.

So sick of the Iraq "probably" thing, though. And the Rumsfeld question was tough.

DTH

[Donna Zen]

55. His comeback:

Thinking on his feet...this was a new wrinkle, but the comeback of having talked to Rummy after he had made the earlier comments, caused him to know that Rummy was not up to speed on a post Cold War world covered the question. Also, he made a comment that Cheney wanted Rummy as a counter weight to Powell's world view was interesting.

All in all, Rummy must have had many Dems who considered him viable or why did the Senate give him the easy nod?

What I liked most was the overall tone Clark assumed. The GOP playbook of wedge issues and labeling was not acceptable as true dialogue through Clark's lens. Yikes_the zinger about bush's family values' thrown out as a backhanded compliment was certainly new. Wow--Wes was pumped this morning.

Accusing the administration of refusing to honor the fallen, inability and unwillingness to to protect this nation from terrorism, and applying wedge issues because they lacked policies, added up to a favorable morning for the General.

How many of us walk away from a situation wishing we had said this or that? Clark would probably like to have a do-over on a few of those points; however, he must also feel pleased that he was able to say exactly what he needed to over all.

[Tom Rinaldo]

65. Mostly great, handled Rusmsfeld curve fairly well

Clark was near perfect with his comments on the Republican ads. Nailed him with a right left barrage, very powerful. Pointing out Bush promised not to exploit 9/11 for political purposes and nailing him for doing just that. Saying Bush of course has a right to defend his policy in Iraq against Dem attacks (though it is pretty much "indefencable' - loved that line) but the ad didn't do that, it attacked the patriotism of Americans who disagreed wtih the President, and attacked the fundamental principles of Democracy by so doing. Wow. Then he threw in the "I'm not attacking Bush for going after the terrorists, I'm attacking him for NOT going after the terrorists" line. Clark is masterful on this issue.

Clark on civil unions was poignant on forceful at the same time. He is so good at casting his stance in the context of basic American virtues. Maybe it takes a General to talk about the fundamental power of love as patriotic.

I think he did rather well on the "flip flop" on Iraq resolution hack. I think he is on to something with pointing out that there is a gotcha mentality in the press, seizing on perceived inconsistencies. He admitted he handled that interview poorly early in his campaign, and pointed out the clear consistent line of his thinking vis a vis non military intervention in Iraq for a year prior to the actual invasion. At some point I think people will will grow tired of this retread, and will focus on What needs to be done now about the mess we are in. Clark is the man on that score in my opinion.

Rusmsfeld was a curve out of left field, I never heard a hint of that one before (Clark was quoted saying Rusmsfeld was an inspired choice as Secretary of Defence in an early statement after Bush was elected, then he was shown saying he never would have appointed Rumsfeld as Secretary of Defence on 60 Minutes II with Rather. I cringed when he was hit by that. Clark's reply was honest and fair. I was very impressed by how he kept his composure under that sneak "attack" attack and explained why it was not inconsistent on his part. His explanation holds water, I believe it to be true and it made sense to me. It does require having an attention span of more than 15 seconds to appreciate it though, which many Americans seemningly don't have. In short Clark said that when he worked around Rumsfeld during the Ford Administration (he was assinged o the White House by the military in those days) Rumsfeld was sharp and effective. Rumsfeld had a good grasp on strategy and priorities for dealing with the Cold War, which was issue of the time. He was impressed by Rumsfeld's skills as manifested in that context.

Clark went on to say, though, that he been President of the United States in 2000, he would have had an in depth interviews with anyone he would consider appointing Defence Secretary. Had he actually gone through that process with Rumsfeld, they would have discussed at length how the U.S. participated in the conflicts in the Balkins. Clark said that subsequent to his early positive comment about Rumsfeld, Rumsfeld was quoted as saying that the lesson he (Rumsfeld) took from the Kosovo campaign, was never surrender any U.S. authority over how a war would be waged (or something to that effect). Clark said that comment showed a deep division between Rumsfeld and himself over post Cold War national security issues. Essentially Clark is a multinationalist and Rumsfeld isn't, and he would not have appointed Rumsfeld based on that fact. Clark went on to favorably compare the outcome of Kosovo vs. the current mess after Rumsfeld's approach to the war in Iraq.

I think Clark can take the heat, and he did astonishingly well at dishing it back. Last time I saw Clark speak in NH he was launching into a personal attack on Bush (after saying earlier that he wasn't running to bash Bush, rather to replace him), then he jokingly pulled back and said he wasn't going to go there. I think he is pursuing an approach of attacking Bush's leadership on issues rather than Bush personally. I think he is positioning himself to win in the General Election, because as incomprehensible as it is to me, a lot of Americans are fond of Bush personally even if they do worry about his leadership ability. Remember one reason Bush "won" (if you can call it that) over Gore is because people "liked" Bush as a regular guy more than they "liked" Gore. I only hope that Democrats in the primaries can appreciate the stategic tact Clark is taking on this. Democrats love to hate Bush personally.

[Snellius]

"Democrats love to hate Bush personally"?

Did Clark say that or are you? This is absolutely not true. The hatred HAS become personal and visceral but the reasons for that hatred have little to no with Bush's personality -- though anyone who honestly watches him knows the difference between the amiable, "strong and bold" caricature he projects and the simple-minded, fearful, win-at-any-cost, Rove/Cheney side he carefully conceals -- but for the reactionary policies he represents.

[Tom Rinaldo]

121. Of course Clark didn't say that

That was my opinion, and I was shooting from the hip with a big generalization I admit. My whole point was that most in the nation don't hate Bush, and that there is a political downside to attacking Bush personally. I guess if I have to measure my words more carefully, what I meant to say is, part of what is motivating a significant sub group of Democratic party activists to work so hard at this early stage in the election cycle is their, let's say, gut negative reaction to Bush. Sort of like it was with Nixon, or how part of the right wing Republican base felt about (still does really) Clinton. My girl friend almost literally feels sick every time she hears Bush speak, just the sound of his voice above and beyond any specific content. You know, "the smirk", "the swagger". So I hold to the gist of my comments. Playing to the "hate Bush " crowd does have more upside in the Primaries than it would in the General Election.

[Snellius]

127. I missed the thread on "Bush Hate" around here

It is a fascinating topic. I'm sort of personally beyond hating him less personally but think he is much more terrifying politically. I actually think even his supporters secretly hate him too but they hate those who hate him even more.

On edit: Thanks for the great summary.

[AmericanDem]

113. Hey great post

Thanks for sharing.

[Donna Zen]

119. After pausing to absorb the interview:

On the Rummy curve...

Clark said that subsequent to his early positive comment about Rumsfeld, Rumsfeld was quoted as saying that the lesson he (Rumsfeld) took from the Kosovo campaign, was never surrender any U.S. authority over how a war would be waged (or something to that effect). Clark said that comment showed a deep division between Rumsfeld and himself over post Cold War national security issues.

Clark probably did not have even an inking that this question was about to be thrown out. Schieffer was really beaming. What is amazing to me is that Clark was able to come up with Rummy's quote about Kosovo. On the spot. The first part of the answer was more of a cover--I would have interviewed him in depth--and a typical political answer. But to have a built up reservoir of information to draw on is what makes Clark so hard for his detractors.

After pausing to think, I think he did just fine with that issue. I'm just sorry to see it make the crappy meaningless questions on the campaign trail top ten list.

What I think he missed was a clear opening at the end to point out domestic differences. I would not be surprised if he didn't think so to. True, they were only going to allow him 60 seconds, but rather than start with a long drawn out terrorism tirade, he needed to move quickly to jobs, energy etc.

BTW, Tom_another excellent post.

[AmericanDem]

34. POST BACK WITH AN ONLINE BROADCAST

I missed it, watching MTP with Carville. We had no heads up on this appearance, wonder why that happened.

[Renew Deal]

38. Where do you live?

It might not have come on there yet.

[AmericanDem]

39. Yes its has aired already

I caught the last few minutes of the show. I'm sure there will be a link to watch online today.

[Spazito]

36. Clark is a master at damning with faint praise....

it is great! He mentions Bush's alcoholism and marriage troubles then moves on. I love it. He manages to point out weaknesses without saying specifically they are weaknesses.

[wndycty]

41. Clark v. Bush would be so much fun

[Spazito]

43. Rove's worst nightmare!

On the one hand you have an articulate, learned, skilled, proven war hero with a degree in economics and on the other, an inarticulate, uncurious, small-minded, spiteful bully.

[Donna Zen]

Clarkism:

"....he is all bully; no pulpit..."

[DeepModem Mom]

48. No wonder Clark went into the military....

he takes risks, and is absolutely fearless. Please -- I could support any of the candidates, and particularly like Dean, who is also very bold -- but while Clark was not the first out there, he may be going where none have gone before in taking it right to the Bush gang.

[mikehiggins]

50. Alcoholism

Clark did an interesting thing, giving Bush credit for overcoming alcoholism and manageing to save his marriage. Hard to find fault in what he said

except

most Americans don't have clue-one about the actual history of their action-figure-in-chief. Clark's comment may kick off a firestorm of complaints from the GOP and the media. We'll see how this one pans out.

[AmericanDem]

57. and I'm sure...

That subtle drop was exactly what his campaign advisors were planning for. Expect more of this in the future. Not over the top comments but small drops to get the ideas turning in the viewers minds. Wish I had seen it, It sounds like he stated it well.

[Terwilliger]

63. Bush went on Oprah and talked about his alcoholism

unless Clark attacked him for being a drunk, noone will comment on this topic

[1songbird]

144. His backhand compliment was music to my ears.

They have been firing lobs at Clark and I think he is letting them know that he can and will fight back.

[kentuck]

52. The audio was not in sync with the picture .....

It was rather disconcerting and detracted from his message just a bit.

[Renew Deal]

59. I am in NY. It was fine here. Where do you live? n/t

[kentuck]

62. Colorado.

It was terribly out of sync. Hmm-mm

[slinkerwink]

54. ouch, the Rumsfeld thing hurt him very much.......

and I was confused to hear him praise Bush for battling alcoholism and getting to where he is today...

[Spazito]

58. It is what is called a suble slam....

nuanced yet lingering.

[Julien Sorel]

160. Fuggedabout it. It's a waste of time using the word 'nuance'

with a Deanite. Maybe if you preface it with a statement they will understand, thusly:

'You have the power to understand that not everything needs to be shrink-wrapped into a soundbite and then shouted out by a beet-faced little man at the top of his lungs. You have the power. You have the power. You have the power. You have the power. You have the power. You have the power. You have the power. You have the power. You have the power.'

I'm not optimistic, mind you, but if anything will sink through, that's the way it's going to have to be presented.

[Renew Deal]

61. You don't seem as confused about Dean's $87 billion position.

I wonder why.

[slinkerwink]

66. because Dean said that he wanted the billions to come out of a repeal of

the tax cuts....---what's so difficult to understand about that?

[Rowdyboy]

74. If I remember the context, they were trying to provoke him to attack Dean

for running an angry campaign against Bush. He turned it around on them and subtly attacked Bush on the alcoholism thing.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

[slinkerwink]

76. you're not wrong, that's one of the good parts of the Clark interview

besides his stance on the civil unions, but I wish he hadn't moved around so much on the issue. It's great he framed it in a human way by talking about children.

[Rowdyboy]

79. And you're one of the more

tjoughtful Dean supporters I've met. I have no problem with people not sharing my take on something, as long as they're rational and don't go for the throat.

[slinkerwink]

99. thank you....

:hi:

[AmericanDem]

67. jus so you know Bleachers7

This is the game this slinkerwink plays. She comes to Clark subject heading to add negatives to an overwhelmingly positive thread.

She is jus a kid. I found the best bet is to just ignore her.

[slinkerwink]

71. I take offense to that----I'm not a kid.

Besides, that was my honest take---the Rumsfeld question did hurt Clark.

[Renew Deal]

73. Immature might be more accurate. But no

It didn't hurt him at all. You wish it did because you refuse to be positive but insist on being negative.

[slinkerwink]

78. you're the one that posted a pic of your own ass in a thread last night

which got deleted, by the way. And you're talking to me about maturity?

[Renew Deal]

85. That wasn't my ass

lol

There is a difference between immaturity and a sense of humor. I was playing off of the Whi I will suppot, why I will not support threads. So I created a thread about why I will support not supporting. It was quite funny. Anyway, how about the fact that you post somehting negative in every Clark thread, but post positive stuff for Dean all day long? Is there anything you like about Clark?

[slinkerwink]

88. check one of my posts below

I liked that Clark didn't go after Dean and that he talked well about civil unions, but the Rumsfeld question really hurt him. I think it put a negative on the interview. That wasn't a sense of humor last night by posting a picture of someone's ass, claiming it was Dean's ass. That was pure immaturity.

[Renew Deal]

98. lol I never claimed it was Dean's ass.

That's funny too. I never thought of that. :evilgrin: Well cool. I liked how he handled the Rummy thing. Clark actually wrote about Rummy saying what he said in his second book. I really think Clark doesn't think like politician. Mean that only politicians go out and say something negative about someone in the press. Clark is not a traditional politician. He doesn't just walk around bashing people.

[slinkerwink]

102. you said "This is Dean's ass" in the thread---don't play coy

Clark actually has been bashing Bush just like Dean.

[Renew Deal]

106. I never said it was Dean's ass.

The thread title was: This is why I support not supporting Dean.
Then it said: Go you get it now? I never said it was Dean's ass. Cmon, it was totally funny. You even asked me if it was my ass. I said no to you last night. Maybe you forgot. BTW, this is where I found it. http://www.granbaol.org/dahome/num48/dg12.htm

[slinkerwink]

107. I know it wasn't Dean's ass but you said metaphorically

this is Dean's ass.....ha, I can't believe you're refusing to own up to that thread which was deleted.

[Renew Deal]

112. I own up to the thread proudly.

I thought it was funny then, I think it's funny now. But I never said it was Dean's ass. It cracks me up talking about this. I was trying to create some laughs by playing off of the: why I-whY I don't suppor threads.

[slinkerwink]

114. no one laughed------you're sorely mistaken

:puke:

[Renew Deal]

116. Opinions

are like a***les (like the one I posted), everybody's got one.

[Kahuna]

137. Hey, Bleachers7! What did I miss about an ass?

What in the hell did you do? :evilgrin: Damn I always miss the good posts. :grr:

[Renew Deal]

155. I was having a little fun.

So I decided to moon DU. Ther ewere 2 threads next to eachother. One about why someone no longer supports Dean. The other about why someone supports Dean. I figured I would have some fun. I posted a thread called: Why I support not supporting Howard Dean. Then I linked to a picture of a guys ass I found on google. My caption was... See, you get it now (or something liek that). It was a joke. I have linked to the guys ass in this thread. Just having some fun with my fellow DUers. It was at 2:00 am last night.

[Bread and Circus]

128. I have a sincere question for you slinkerwink....

I know you are a faithful dean supporter. I know you also
have a bit of a liking for Clark, I think he is your #2.

Clark often takes a pass at attacking other dems.

I would like examples of Dean doing the same thing. A handful
of instances. I know he has called other dems "Republican",
"Republican-lite", "Bush-lite" and so forth. I also know
he kinda sorta (read: really) misrepresents the stance of some
of the others on Iraq war issues. So my question is this:

Can someone give me several examples of Dean passing on
dissing other Dem candidates? I am really soured against
him. He may become the nominee. I would like to see some
redemption in this area because it is why Dean has went from
#2 in my book to almost-Lieberman status (meaning: not too
enthused if I had to vote for 'em).

I think that Clark has by and large been one of the best
Candidates in this area.

[slinkerwink]

129. Yes, but if Clark stays above the fray, he won't be prepared for...

a Bush attack. It's a baptismal by fire process in the primaries. The one who stays above the fray tends to lose the nomination.

[Kahuna]

139. Puleeze. Clark has dodged bullets bigger than bush and dean...

Clark knows who his enemy is and is preserving his ammo for the real enemy. Got it now?

[oxymoron]

157. I think Clark has proven that he can counter Rove's attacks.

If you saw how he handled Faux News, I cannot see how you can say anything to the contrary.

[chiburb]

90. I agree that it's hard to find any post by Slinkerwink...

That is positive about Clark, and the perception is that she's such a Dean partisan that anything she posts about Clark is suspect.
That said, your comment that "she's just a kid...ignore her" is offensive. There are MANY "kids" on these boards, and they should NOT be ignored. They add new blood, ideas, and energy to the whole dialogue and process... both here and in the real world.
Think what you want about her posts, but rethink your comment.

[AmericanDem]

93. it wasn't meant to be...

offensive. If that is what it is perceived to be by some, that is something they will have to deal with. As you can see from the follow ups to her intial post, it has degraded into a mess. This is very consistent in many many posts I see with her.

I stand by what I said.

[KittyWampus]

96. Hey! Slinkerwink Said Clark Is Her #2 Pick

So there! :D

[mikehiggins]

69. Confused?

Let's see now...

"I am not running to bash George Bush, a lot of Americans really love him, they love what he represents. A man who has over come adversity in his life. From alcoholism and pulled his marriage back together and moved forward. . ."

What is it that confused you?

The idea that lots of people really like George Bush? Look at the polls.

The idea that lots of people really like the idea that Bush overcame some setbacks in life? Just a matter of fact.

The allegation that Bush suffered from alcoholism?

Of course, lots and lots of people had no idea about that. Now its out in public, a lot like congratulating someone on stopping beating his wife.

However, I agree with you about the Rumsfeld thing. I think Clark could have handled it better by saying that time and events after 9/11 had proven him wrong. Still, his explanation was legit, just not belligerent enough for me.

[slinkerwink]

75. why even use the Saudis? 9 of the 11 Hijackers were Saudis...

and Saudi Arabia is one of the Middle Eastern countries that help fund terrorism..

[xultar]

80. The Saudis want them out as well remember they threaten the

roayal family,

Haven't you ever met some one and thought hey, he's a nice person. Then got to know them over the years and found out that they were an ASSHOLE...That is the Rummy situation. He supported him in the beginning but on hind site that may have been a bad move.

Get it?

[slinkerwink]

83. no, Saudi Arabia is terrible towards its women and they do support

terrorism by funneling money to terrorist groups.

[xultar]

89. Well he's not going to give them a BIRTHDAY PARTY

he wants to use comandos to hunt down some terrorists.

You do what you gotta do. We need to clean up our mess anyway. IF the US government hadn't given the terrorists RPGs and other weapons we wouldn't have to be going after them now.

THE GOP GAVE THE TERRORISTS WEAPONS IT takes a DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT to clean that shit up

[slinkerwink]

91. Dean actually would put sanctions on Saudi Arabia for its human rights

violations......that's what I like about him.

[slinkerwink]

130. interesting no one responded to this post.....

;-)

[oxymoron]

158. How did this turn into a Dean thread? (nt)

[Terwilliger]

81. 9 of the 11?

I think you mean 15 of the 19

[Donna Zen]

94. Because it's perfect

If you use the Saudis you do two things 1) you extend our overstretched reach...we don't have the troops 2) you provide yourself with Arab speakers and Arabs who at one time openly supported the Taliban.

Now if the Saudis refuse the call, then they are outed as the piss-poor friends they really are.

Going to the mountains would also cause the Saudis to confront that which they so cleaverly are hiding from: the situation they face within their own country. A top heavy hypocracy leading a restless population. If the Saudis are to survive, they will have to reform. The current political climate within that country is sick and growing more feverish by the day.

[slinkerwink]

95. yes, it bothers me that Clark would advocate using them......

[OKNancy]

105. Hey! You!

Get off of my cloud.

[slinkerwink]

110. what? Isn't talking about Saudis a good thing to do?

There are major flaws with the use of the Saudis, and Clark should've stuck with the NATO shtick.

[OKNancy]

111. You don't understand the reference?

Look, start a thread about it. This thread is in praise of Clark's appearance on Face the Nation.

You know what I do? I don't even open up any of the Dean cheerleading threads because I know that I can't add antything too them. I respect the Dean supporters and their right to praise their guy. I would appreciate the same.

[slinkerwink]

115. yes, but some Clarkies still rain on our cheerleading threads....

:shrug:

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slinkerwink]

120. no I was pointing out that there's criticism everywhere

:shrug:

[Kahuna]

142. Please! Please stop, Bleachers! You're just egging her on...

this was a good thread until this idiotic back and forth got going. Please don't feed into it. I'm begging you. :pals:

[Lefta Dissenter]

134. THANK YOU Nancy!!! Well stated. (eom)

[Kahuna]

141. Ditto. Same here.

I have nothing positive to ad to the Dean posts so I don't even open them.

[OKNancy]

150. Now you two are getting in the Clark way of doing things

"I have nothing positive to add...etc"

Me either. I didn't used to feel that way, but now it's different.

[Tom Rinaldo]

152. "Back Hand Compliment"

You know, the comment about people respect that Bush recovered from alcoholism etc. I've been replaying that comment in my mind. Starting to wonder if that was meant as a shot across Bush's bow. Clark clearly prefers taking the high road as a campaigner, he wants to compare leadership and visions for America. However when I heard him speak in NH he clearly stated that he expected to be confronted by "dirty politics" in the General Election. I'm sure some Clarkie will have the link, but there was a piece on him in "the buzz" or some such named political commentary site, a big one, I'm just spacing the name. Anyway there Clark was described as having the presence of a "mountain lion" when observed close hand. A sense of intense power completely under control. The commentater translated that into an unspoken message; "dont f*ck with me."

Clark never touched drugs, Bush did. Clark sought to fight for his nation in Viet Nam, Bush sought to avoid fighting (not out of principled opposition). Clark devoted himself to continually serving his nation after being a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford and being wounded in the Viet Nam war. Bush sought to strike it rich by playing off of his father's connections after being a party boy at Yale and ducking the Viet Nam war. Clark showed discipline in mastering ever more complex duties as he advanced through his military career. Bush showed his Attention Disorder Syndrome while "calling in" his stage performance as Gov. of Texas, and setting a record for days on vacation as President of the United States. Clark has been a devoted Husband for 36 years. Bush almost wrecked his marriage.

Remember Clark on Fox? I think Clark is ready for what the Republicans might throw at him, and he is warning Bush to stay on the high road.

[Tom Rinaldo]

154. Ooops, posted "Backhand Comment" in worng place

Forgot what post I had open when I posted it. Shouldn't be part of this thread line. If you have any reaction to it, please see the repost of my comments that I made at the bottom of the thread just now.

[Donna Zen]

149. Wrong thread vs good discussion

First, please clarify Dean's position for sanctions against Saudis. This really confuses me since 1) sanction what? 2) the Saudis own much of our debt through foreign banks and many, many of our dollars. Example: the summer of 2002, when the Saudis were getting a rash of bad US press, the Saudis sold 200 billion in dollars causing a monetary problem for this country. That is just the tip of what they can do. It is part of the protection scheme that our debt has produced. 3) to what end? What is the political goal of sanctions especially given that policy's poor track record?

NATO is already taken over Kabul and doesn't seem to want much more, at least without reward. If we need NATO troops for Iraq, then forget more involvement in Afghanistan. Saudi Arabia is being attacked from within from a power base from without. Who better to put some effort into getting rid of the thugs in the mountains. Also, the Saudis have investments in those mountains, and have built up some associations. NATO fails to bring the one thing that is needed: an Arab state with Arab speakers lining up to shoulder some of the burden, a burden of their, and yes our, own making.

[democratreformed]

97. Yes, that's the way I have seen this explained as well

Their refusal to help, if it should happen, would expose them for what they are.

[dobak]

148. 9 of the 11

There were only 11 hijackers?

I think you meant 11 of the 19 hijackers were Saudis on 9/11

:-) :-)

[Tom Rinaldo]

82. Please read my post #65 for my response to your concerns

I wrote it befoer reading your post. I certainly hope you are not looking for a candidate made out of some new age plastic material that can not ever be in the slightest bit dinged by any attack that is ever thrown at him/her by Rowe or the likes. If so maybe you should get one of those superman logos to display with all your posts. I was impressed with Clark's ability to handle fire.

[xultar]

92. Absolutely, that is so true. He needs to be able to weather some

hits. That will endear him to his supporters even more.

[guajira]

86. Clark is my favorite - but needs to learn to NOT volunteer info

For example, some time ago, he was asked what he would do about Rumsfeld and he volunteered that he would not have hired him in the first place. Schiefer had prior video of Clark praising Rumsfeld and saying B* made a good choice! Clearly 2 different views!

Hopefully as he progresses on the campaign trail, he will tighten up his views and not waver on issues. I wish he would have been more clear on gay marriages, a couple of sentences would have been all he needed to say in support for gay unions and states right to have gay marriages.

Clark was great before he declared his candidacy and got handlers and advisors. Then he started stumbling and still continues it today. He needs to seriously consider getting better campaign managers!!!

[AmericanDem]

101. He is no politican

and he speaks from his heart. This is one the strong points I like about Clark. If it can be shown to most people that its ok to have a heart and not succumb to the evil that is politics in time we will be a much better country.

[democratreformed]

104. Amen!

I, for one, am hoping he continues to speak from his heart.

[DemCam]

138. Disagree here guajira...

He made distinctions and educated here...one of his best answers to me.

[Kahuna]

135. You were confused?!?

No!

[DemCam]

84. I was nearly knocked off the sofa with coffee

in hand...barely saved the new rug when he brought up his recognition of Bush and people's admiration for overcoming his alcoholism. There will be a howl...but let it come.

This was the first time I have just lost myself in listening without being afraid of what he was going to say.

Answer to the RNC ad was perfect.

Hiding the coffins answer just right.

I personally thought his response to the "so-called wedge issue of gay marriage" was framed so beautifully that it made me cry...how can you fault his response and even his refusal to say he favored "gay marriage?" He walked around this issue gingerly, but clearly and with great care and feeling, and yet managed to lead and educate.

The Runsfeld answer was not pitchperfect...lost the framing of that one. Can just see him saying...damndamndamn...let's do that one again. But this will be framed better next time. You will see that they didn't mention Shelton this time...though they did re-do the Iraq crip-crap...and these two responses still need a bit more practice.

I swear...most of the time...he was just simply the man he is...thoughtful, intelligent, experienced, caring.

It can't get better than that.

[IndianaGreen]

103. Clark opposes the war in Iraq

that's good enough for me.

I will fight like crazy to deny the Democratic nomination to the four unrepentant pukes that voted for IWR: Gephardt, Edwards, Kerry, Lieberman.

[Terwilliger]

125. yet he was a warmonger and cheerleader for CNN

I didn't like the other retired military on ABCBSPNBCFOX why should I give Clark a free ride for participating in the mass deception?

[Renew Deal]

126. Because Clark didn't say what they all said.

He was not all rah rah. Bush co wanted to silence him by getting him fired.

[Tom Rinaldo]

136. No way a warmonger

He thought going in the way we did for the reasons we had was a mistake, and said so many times many places, before and after. Cheer leader? To some extent, sure. Once the war was underway Clark clearly preferred that the U.S. topple Hussein as soon as possible with the fewest possible losses. It was either that or have a long drawn out war with many more deaths, or worse case have a long drawn out war with many more deaths leaving Hussein still in power. The guy spent his life in the military, he was happy that American troops weren't wholesale slaughtered when they moved into Iraq. Somehow I don't find that shocking. Even I am happy to see Hussein finally out of power for what that's worth, the guy was a murderous tyrant, but from a policy perspective it was a disaster for the U.S. to invade the way it did. Stupid and arrrogant and done in the way most likely to cause continuing grief for both us and the people of Iraq. Clark is clear on all of that.

[Lefta Dissenter]

140. Wrongo!

The thing that first made me notice Clark on CNN was that he was NOT just pumping the party line, saying how everything in Iraq was hunky-dory. He stated very clearly that he did not agree with what the administration was doing - that he would not have gone into Iraq.

[Donna Zen]

151. IIRC

Clark's critical views once junior got his war on, resulted in CNN's moving Clark from prime time to Aaron Brown's side kick. Now Clark was considered among the networks as CNN's prize, so why was he moved?

[xultar]

161. That's why the BUSH ADMIN had him removed from CNN n/t

[Kahuna]

143. IG! You ARE the greatest!

I love your intellectual honesty.

[AmericanDem]

118. Clark, FTN rebroadcast on CSpan radio at 4pm.

for now CSpan radio will rebroadcast the Face the Nation program of today with Clark. http://www.c-span.org/watch/schedule.asp?code=csr

Keep eyes open for the video rebroadcast.

[eileen_d]

146. Thank you!

I'm so pissed off I overslept and missed this!

[Tom Rinaldo]

153. When Clark made his "back hand compliment"

I think he had a message for the Bush Camp. I accidently posted this above in an inappropriate place, forgot which message I had open, sorry for the repost but it didn't belong as par of that earlier thread.

You know, when Clark made that comment about people respecting that Bush recovered from alcoholism etc. I've been replaying that comment in my mind. Starting to wonder if that was meant as a shot across Bush's bow. Clark clearly prefers taking the high road as a campaigner, he wants to compare leadership and visions for America. However when I heard him speak in NH he clearly stated that he expected to be confronted by "dirty politics" in the General Election. I'm sure some Clarkie will have the link, but there was a piece on him in "the buzz" or some such named political commentary site, a big one, I'm just spacing the name. Anyway there Clark was described as having the presence of a "mountain lion" when observed close hand. A sense of intense power completely under control. The commentater translated that into an unspoken message; "dont f*ck with me."

Clark never touched drugs, Bush reportedly more than dallied. Clark sought to fight for his nation in Viet Nam, Bush sought to avoid fighting (not out of principled opposition). Clark devoted himself to continually serving his nation after being a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford and being wounded in the Viet Nam war. Bush sought to strike it rich by playing off of his father's connections after being a party boy at Yale and ducking the Viet Nam war. Clark showed discipline in mastering ever more complex duties as he advanced through his military career. Bush showed his Attention Disorder Syndrome while "calling in" his stage performance as Gov. of Texas, and setting a record for days on vacation as President of the United States. Clark has been a devoted Husband for 36 years. Bush almost wrecked his marriage.

Remember Clark on Fox? I think Clark is ready for what the Republicans might throw at him, and he is warning Bush to stay on the high road.

[Donna Zen]

156. An interesting observation

Why make that remark when he has never used it before?

A) Sliding in some simple bashing to remind listeners that bushco has a past that doesn't meet the sniff test

B) Drawing out some clear leadership differences...accountability

C) Taking the family values issues off the table and/or the likablity favorable meme. IOW, people like him for this and this but it don't mean shit when considering his ability to lead.

D) NEW!!!! Keep dragging out Shelton and calling me anti-patriotic and I will bust your chops.

E) Pure accident.....Naaaaaw

BTW, the description of the mountain lion that looks so friendly until one realizes that it can pull out your juggler if you fuck with it was from an interview on Buzz with Gene Lyons.

New topic: Several things have happened recently that have convinced me we need Clark moved into Pennsylvania Avenue TODAY. One: Paul Bremmer just fired gobs of Iraqi teachers (DU said 28,000) and Two: On November 21'st we took over the food for oil program from the UN. If these two developments are as bad as they appear, it looks as if the regime may be planning to dig the hole deeper. Clark on the other hand, has a plan that could be successful, but that plan is based on where the situation is now. A year is too long to let junior remain sort of in charge.

[Dr Fate]

159. A must read post- also I think he KNOWS the base "needs" "redmeat"..

He KNOWS the base LOVED his performance on Fox & Russert...

He knows that the base/potential Clark supporters "need" some "red-meat" jibes at Bush...

He knows that other DEMS and candidates are TERRIFIED of Bush/media- and that this is a way to stand out...

I'm glad we have some internet savvy candidates like Clark & Dean- these guys are in touch w/ what the base is buzzing about, and tha is important...

[Zomby Woof]

162. he looked blank and robotic

He also looked like he shit his Depends when Schieffer showed that quote of Clark praising Rumsfeld, then the 60 Minutes II segment with the flip-flop. He handled it horribly.

Is this really the best we can do for frontrunners? A NATO bureaucrat and a flameheaded cult leader from Vermont? :shrug:

[Name removed]

163. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zomby Woof]

164. sorry

Unless I have short grey hair, and callow eyes, which I don't, it was not me evading and dodging questions with the look of a deer caught in the headlights. It looked like some goddamned general to me.

I'm a live Zomby, this one. I tell the truth, and it is rarely beautiful.

[Kahuna]

166. Kerry supporter right? Well, I'm not going to attack Kerry,...

because I might have to vote for him in Nov. of 2004. But, if I wanted to take shots about kerry's appearance... c'mon now.

[Zomby Woof]

168. LOL!

I LOVE, just LOVE how any person can make a crack about a candidate and then the supporter of that candidate says, "You MUST be a _______ supporter!" :D :D :D

No, I don't care for Kerry either. Blah! I am undecided, because I think (as I have said oh maybe 693 times already) this is the most mediocre field of Dems since 1988. It is THAT bad.

As for my critique of the general's looks, I was basing it strictly on his TV appearance this morning. If you read what I said, you would have gathered that, and not implied it was something um, more general. As for more substantial matters, his answers sucked too, since content is more important than looks - although in our TV age, that matters too much too, unfortunately.

You see, I decided long ago to not waste much energy in GD, because a substantial, fact-laden thread gets ignored and sinks like a stone, and reasonable replies within threads either get ignored or flamed as "attacks" or other silly nonsense. So I might as well take cheap shots, because hey, I could use a good laugh, and you obliged. ;-)

[Name removed]

165. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FrenchieCat]

167. Clark was wonderful

on Face the Nation. He is the most articulate of any candidate. The others are all politicians...and vunerable to Bushco.

Me, I just want to win in November.......and Clark can do it...

the others can't....Nuff said.

[Zomby Woof]

169. trust me on this

You don't make it to 4-star general in the United States Army by NOT being a politician.

Politicians come in many stripes, or in this case, stars.

[NNN0LHI]

172. Was he stiff looking too ZombyWoof? How was his hair? Was his shirt OK?

Jebus.

Don

[AmericanDem]

170. Jus heard radio rebroadcast

Clark did very well. Detailed on all questioned ask of him. He is really getting into the groove of campaigning.

[maddezmom]

171. listened to the re-broadcast as well

Thought it went very well. The Rummy issue was tough, but think he made his point, he had a change of heart. Just like a lot of the other candidates....opinions and policies change after learning more details about an issue.