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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:59 PM
Original message
Do Right-Wingers Hate Muhammed Ali?
Edited on Mon Nov-03-03 04:24 PM by Bandit
He refused the draft when it was his time. It was against his religion. He is a muslim after all. That religion of hatred and war. You know. Is he the right's poster "boy" for all that is wrong with America? Funny we never hear anything about him.
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RandomKoolzip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. Read Hunter Thompson's piece on Muhammad Ali in
"The Great Shark Hunt." HST writes about how southern whites and lots of sportswriters were just begging for Ali to get beaten throughout the seventies....a great article, a must read.
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
2. I still come across this from time to time.
Those who hate him often are insistant that he be referred to as Cassius Clay.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
3. He used to be
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
4. Some people like watching minorities beat the crap out of each other
Personally I can't stand the "sport" of boxing.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. The only fight I watched ended with a death
My father loved to watch boxing, so one day I decided to watch a championship match with him (we only owned one TV). Hometown hero "Boom Boom" Mancini fought with Dook Ku Kim one day in the 1980s. Both were hospitalized afterwards. Kim slipped into a coma and died of a brain hemorrage.
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Kamika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. k3 is better
Much better then boxing :D
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liberalcapitalist Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. good for you-- don't watch it, then
I enjoy it, and I don't have to think of the participants along racial lines either.

Furthemore, Muhammad Ali is probably the most influential Black man outside of MLK in the second half of the twentieth century... He's far from just a boxer.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. My first impression of boxing was his trash talk when I was a gradeschoole
Edited on Mon Nov-03-03 05:07 PM by SpikeTrees
I was raised amongst hopelessly polite Midwesterners and I had never heard anybody talk the way that he did about his opponent (Frazier?). I just could not relate. You could say it "turned me off" from boxing at a young age.

edit: yacht racing, now that's a sport!
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. What probably angered you and your fellow "polite Midwesterners"...
...even more was the fact that he could back up in the ring what he said in public. Ali was the first to use liberal doses of hype to generate interest in sporting events...and he was wildly successful. Television certainly understood what Ali was doing, and so did the world of sports betting.

Ali was also a man of strong religious conviction. He refused to be drafted for Vietnam and was willing to spend five years in prison for his convictions. How many "hopelessly polite Midwesterners" would be willing to do that?
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #22
33. I was 8 years old and he made my ears burn
It was as simple as that. Most children that young don't understand adult language (I mean adult concepts, not x-rated). It just bothered me in the way that loud and rude people bothered me at that age. It was all just beyond me.

Further, my parents, and especially my mother, would go out of their way not to hurt another's feelings. That is what I learned, and I think that I shall stay with that social grace if it is just as well with you.

And further-further, the way my parents taught me was in no way related to the matter of the war in Vietnam, so please don't try to tie those issues together and confuse things.
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Cloud Donating Member (380 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
5. Ali was a true champion
Both in and out of the ring. Of course they wanted him to loose. I consider him a hero. He became the heavyweight champ and he has also been a champion for people who are opressed, poor, and without a voice in politics. The right wingers can't stand him.

Here are my favorite quotes. His views on poverty and wealth are right on.

"Wars of nations are fought to change maps. But wars of poverty are fought to map change."
Muhammad Ali

"To be able to give away riches is mandatory if you wish to possess them. This is the only way that you will be truly rich."
Muhammad Ali

"Float like a butterfly.
Sting like a bee.
Your hands can't hit
what your eyes can't see."
Muhammad Ali

"If you even dream of beating me you'd better wake up and apologize."
Muhammad Ali

"I'm the most recognized and loved man that ever lived cuz there weren't no satellites when Jesus and Moses were around, so people far away in the villages didn't know about them."
Muhammad Ali

"I know where I'm going and I know the truth, and I don't have to be what you want me to be. I'm free to be what I want."
Muhammad Ali

"I'm a Muslim. I've been a Muslim for 20 years. . . . You know me. I'm a boxer. I've been called the greatest. People recognize me for being a boxer and a man of truth. I wouldn't be here representing Islam if it were terrorist. . . . I think all people should know the truth, come to recognize the truth. Islam is peace."
Muhammad Ali speaking on September 21, 2001 at a fundraiser for victims of the WTC and Pentagon attacks.

"It's hard to be humble, when you're as great as I am."
Muhammad Ali

"Hating people because of their color is wrong. And it doesn't matter which color does the hating. It's just plain wrong."
Muhammad Ali

"Champions aren't made in gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them: A desire, a dream, a vision. They have to have last-minute stamina, they have to be a little faster, they have to have the skill and the will. But the will must be stronger than the skill."
Muhammad Ali

"It's not bragging if you can back it up."
Muhammad Ali

"I am America. I am the part you won't recognize, but get used to me. Black, confident, cocky -- my name, not yours. My religion, not yours. My goals, my own. Get used to me."
Muhammad Ali

"Service to others is the rent you pay for your room here on earth."
Muhammad Ali

"Cassius Clay is a slave name. I didn't choose it, and I didn't want it. I am Muhammad Ali, a free name - it means beloved of God - and I insist people use it when speaking to me and of me.''
Muhammad Ali
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
6. I wrote this three days before 9/11
Ali, Frazier, and me

by William Rivers Pitt
9/8/01

"That was always the difference between Muhammad Ali and the rest of us. He came, he saw, and if he didn’t entirely conquer—he came as close as anybody we are likely to see in the lifetime of this doomed generation."

- Hunter S. Thompson

It is difficult to put the blood feud between Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier into any form of acceptable modern context.

Certainly, there have been duels in sport since those two behemoths traded blows. Boxing has seen Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield locked in combat, and before them Marvin Hagler and Sugar Ray Leanord treated us to round after round of pure contest.

Ask anyone in Boston who carried out the greatest duel in sport, and they will spend the next several hours talking about Larry Bird and Magic Johnson. Mark McGuire and Sammy Sosa sparred in the friendliest home run derby ever witnessed.

The clash of wills that defined Ali and Frazier rises above all of these, and perhaps any other athletic rivalry, simply because of the time in which it happened. The Vietnam war was raging, the Democratic Convention in 1968 had become a frenzied police riot, Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King, Jr. were cold in their graves, and Richard Nixon was the duly elected President of the United States.

Lines had been drawn, sides had been chosen. You were either with Nixon and for the war, or against Nixon and the war. By 1971, opinion had become so entrenched, and so many lives had been lost, that there was little room anymore in the middle. Everything had gone too far, resulting in what amounted to a battle to the death for the soul of the nation. Winning was all that mattered.

The contests between Ali and Frazier crystallized the divisions in the nation. Muhammad Ali represented the Leftists, the hippies, the Panthers, the Nation of Islam, the anti-war activists, anyone else who wanted America to change, who saw Nixon as a murderer and the Vietnam war as pure evil. Added to this was the fact that Ali was a beautiful man with amazing physical and mental gifts.

When Muhammad Ali refused to be drafted, when he said, "No Viet Cong ever called me nigger," when his choice cost him his title, he became a hero and martyr for progressives. Simultaneously he became the scourge and target of Nixonian law-and-order folks who were terrified by this brash and mouthy colored man who had repudiated Christianity and who wouldn't do as he was told.

Those who despised Ali became supporters of Joe Frazier, holder of the title of Heavyweight Champion of the World after Ali was stripped for refusing service. They supported Frazier, not because they loved him, but because they wanted him to beat Ali to death and take the guts out of those crazy Lefties who were ruining the country. Frazier was, simply, a terrifying boxer. Built low and stocky with short arms, Frazier came at opponents like a bull on the charge, horns lowered. His left hook could take the top off a mountain.

Muhammad Ali met Joe Frazier in the ring for the first time on March 8, 1971. The fight itself was hyped to a degree that is seldom seen even today. Ali was seeking to reclaim his title from a man who had gained it without facing him. Both fighters were at the peak of their athletic form. Ali had gone out of his way to antagonize Frazier with verbal barbs that cut deep, and the champ was ready to dish out some payback.

Surrounding the physical contest was the national one. The two fighters became vessels into which was poured all the passion and vitriol of the time. Confined within the ropes of the ring would be a contest to determine who was right, who was stronger. In a sense, this fight was the distilled essence of that roiled and disturbed era. If Ali won, the war was wrong and the activists were the better. If Frazier won, it was Nixon and the war that would carry the day.

The bell rang that night on a moment in sporting history that will never, ever be matched. The two fighters went round after round, attacking with their different styles. Ali used his longer arms to hammer Frazier with jab after jab, while Frazier bored in low, taking three punches in order to deliver one, looking for a chance to launch that sledgehammer left.

Finally, in the fifteenth round, with both fighters battered and reeling, Frazier got his chance. Ali let his guard down for half a second, and Frazier brought that left hook whistling up from the cotton fields of South Carolina where he'd toiled as a boy. Muhammad Ali went down like a tree, popping up a moment later with his jaw grotesquely swollen. The bell rang, Frazier kept his title, and for a moment the nation had a clear victor. The war went on, Nixon got re-elected, and the hearts of those who loved Muhammad Ali were broken.

In the context of that national contest, the loss Muhammad Ali suffered at the stone hands of Joe Frazier was devastating to progressives. So many of their heroes had been laid low, and here was another body added to the pile.

Four years later, on October 1, 1975, the two warriors again faced each other in what became known as the Thrilla in Manila. The fight has since been characterized as the greatest heavyweight bout in the history of the universe. Ali and Frazier again were at each other like giants from some long-forgotten myth, trading blows that rattled the floor.

When the bell rang announcing the opening of the fifteenth round, Joe Frazier could not summon enough of himself to rise from his corner. Muhammad Ali was, once again and for all time, the greatest boxer who had ever lived.

When the referee raised Ali's fist in victory that night, the war in Vietnam was all but over. Richard Nixon had been chased from Washington D.C. in a blizzard of disgrace, and most of the men who had worked for him were headed for prison.

The issues that added such symbolism to the first contest had been all but settled, yet in Ali's victory on that October day one could find a final note of righteous vindication. It had taken a long time, but in the end, supporters of Ali could face the mirror and know that at least one of their heroes had carried the day.

Today, Muhammad Ali is one of the most recognized and beloved people in all the world. The courage he displayed in the face of the Vietnam draft board no longer draws cries of 'traitor!.' Indeed, his bold stand is a point of pride for virtually every living American. Time has told the tale, as it always does. Ali was right.

When Muhammad Ali lit the Olympic torch with his shaking hand not long ago, I wept. For you see, once upon a time I had been privileged to shake that massive hand. I was seven years old and passing through the lobby of the Parker House hotel in Boston. My father suddenly grabbed me and thrust me onto his shoulders. He hustled into a small knot of people.

In the center stood Ali, the Champ. I shook his hand and he smiled at me. Bigger men than he have never walked the earth, before or since. Size figures only partially into that assessment.

Now that this tale is told, it is clear why the Ali-Frazier feud cannot be fitted into any sort of modern context. There are, however, some lessons to be gleaned. The first, and most important, is that it does not matter if you find yourself flat on you back because your foe has dropped you. It matters only that you get up again, face him, and keep swinging.

More important than this is the lesson of history. No one but the odd sportswriter knows what Joe Frazier is doing today. His supporters left him behind the moment he felled Ali in 1971 because they never loved him and did not need him anymore. They dismissed him completely after his defeat in 1975. He could walk from one side of Manhattan to the other tomorrow afternoon and be recognized by no one.

Muhammad Ali cannot leave his house without making the newspapers. He is, as stated earlier, one of the most beloved individuals alive today. When he dies, billions will mourn him. This is the man who would not fight in Vietnam, who took a Muslim name as an indictment to this nation's history of slavery. This is the man who was a hero for the Left, for those who look ahead instead of behind.

When the last chapter of this story is written, those who were arrayed against each other for that first fight in 1971 will know without doubt who was victorious in the end. Muhammad Ali will enter heaven with fists raised, carrying with him all that we hold dear and just. He was beaten, he rose, he won, and the beliefs he holds true carried the day. This gives me hope.
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RaulGroom Donating Member (331 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
21. You repeat a common error in this piece
"No Viet Cong ever called me 'nigger'" was a common slogan among black activists in the late 1960's, but the attribution to Ali is a myth. He said "I ain't got no quarrel with the Viet Cong." The rest was added later.

This is an excellent example of Gresham's law as it applies to quotations - bad quotes drive out the good. The misattribution you cite is much, much more common than the correct one.
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #6
23. That's a nice piece, but as someone who
Edited on Mon Nov-03-03 05:09 PM by BillyBunter
grew up in a poor black neighborhood, I can tell you that almost all of us in my neighborhood were Frazier supporters in 1971. His simple, no-nonsense style, his indomitable willpower, his humility, and the anger poor blacks felt at the verbal, race-based pounding he took from Ali before the fight made Frazier the guy of choice for us. Calling Frazier a 'gorilla' offended many blacks who had darker skin and less money than Ali, and there were also several Vietnam vets in my neighborhood who resented Ali getting out of service when they could not.

When word that Frazier won filtered through our neighborhood, there were people out in the streets shooting guns into the air in celebration, one of the vivid memories I have of my childhood. I wish there was some kind of poll data extant showing racial breakdown of support for the fight, because I've always thought of Ali, not Frazier, contrary to Ali's claims, as being the 'white man's champion,' especially liberal white people. Poor blacks found Frazier a much more sympathetic figure, and one whose demeanor and attitude made him easier to identify with.
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RaulGroom Donating Member (331 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. Maybe so
But Ali didn't really "get out" of serving in Vietnam. He refused induction, was arrested and convicted of draft refusal. Anyone could have done the same - Ali's money and status did nothing to help him in that regard.

Also, "liberal whites" didn't really adopt Ali until later in his career - most liberal elites at the time Ali refused induction condemned him for it.
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #27
34. Ali's money and status kept him out of jail.
Edited on Mon Nov-03-03 05:37 PM by BillyBunter
Anyone else would have served time in prison.
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RaulGroom Donating Member (331 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Ali's money bought off the entire supreme court?
The reason he didn't do time is that the Supreme Court found the Justice Department lied to the draft board. The decision was 8-0 and was identical to nine other decisions made on the same basis.
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Ordinary people couldn't have afforded to take the case
to the Supreme Court. I should think that would be obvious.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. So his money brought a case to SCOTUS
that represented the views of millions of people, and he won. The fiend.
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. Where did I say he was a fiend?
I think you need to go back and read the sub-thread. What I said was, in my neighborhood, Ali was not as popular as Frazier, in part because he wasn't viewed as one of us, and Frazier was. This was because of several things, one of them being Ali avoided the war, while many other blacks had to serve. I'm not passing judgment on the man for that, and in fact give him credit for taking a semi-principled stand. But it's a side issue.

What makes me curious is why Ali is depicted as a champion of black people and Frazier as the champion of whites, when my personal experience was different.
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
7. his no-nonsense stance.
pointed up the hypocracy of black men going off to fight and die in the cause of a nation that made his mother sit in the back of the bus and his brothers drink from special fountains back home, amongst other indignaties.
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mrgorth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
8. They'd almost have to.(np)
.
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liberalcapitalist Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
9. I heard he is a Republican now
Edited on Mon Nov-03-03 04:32 PM by liberalcapitalist
I heard something about this around the '92 election or so... And again later... I did a google search and noticed he supported Democratic Governor Jennifer Granholm, though. Hopefully I was wrong.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Say what?
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liberalcapitalist Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I hope it's untrue
But I remember hearing this around the time that Bush I was seeking re-election.
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Kamika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. maybe he was?
Alot of muslims used to be republicans (religion and all) but somehow i doubt they still are
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. I highly doubt that's true. n/t
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liberalcapitalist Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. if no one else has heard it
Then my guess is that I was wrong.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #11
36. You're Right
Ali has said some nice things about Republicans and has some Republican friends but he's not really political....


He was an emissary to African countries for Jimmy Carter...


As far as wingers hating him... Maybe extreme wingers do... I remember when Steve Ford invited Ali to the White House... It was a cool pic with Pres Ford... Steve Ford also invited George Harrison to the White House which was another great pic....


I love Ali.... If he has praised an occasional R he gets a pass from me....

I think Ali and other Nation of Islam members liked the Republican emphasis on self reliance....
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. Ali is no longer aligned with the NOI
He quit a while ago, after Malcolm.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. Exactly....
but Malcom saw the light way before Ali... In fact Ali shunned him after Malcom broke with Elijah Muhummad....

The two coolest picture were Malcom and Ali and Malcom and Dr.King...

And Ali didn't get to make amends cuz Malcom was assasinated shortly after he left the nation and embraced true Islam....

It's gets complicated. I think Herbert Muhammed, who was Ali's nominal manager left the Nation and that's when Ali left....
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. Exactly....
but Malcom saw the light way before Ali... In fact Ali shunned him after Malcom broke with Elijah Muhummad....

The two coolest picture were Malcom and Ali and Malcom and Dr.King...

And Ali didn't get to make amends cuz Malcom was assasinated shortly after he left the nation and embraced true Islam....

It's gets complicated. I think Herbert Muhammed, who was Ali's nominal manager left the Nation and that's when Ali left....
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
18. The things Ali said to Frazier were truly terrible
Calling Frazier a gorilla was the least of it. I suppose as someone born and raised in Philly, I always liked Frazier (I was too young during the 70s to understand any deeper political significance).

http://espn.go.com/boxing/columns/graham/1210782.html

I don't think I can forgive Ali for saying what he said. It will always tarnish my image of the man.

Apparently, Ali could be just as racist, in his own way, as anyone.
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liberalcapitalist Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. you have to be kidding me
It doesn't bother you that the two traded blows to near death, but it bothers you that Ali was a trash-talker? Frazier needed some thicker skin. Furthermore, Frazier refused to refer to Ali as Ali.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. Nope, not kidding
They traded blows to the death in the ring in which they both chose to be in. That bothers me not at all.

I was unaware that Frazier refused to call Ali Ali, which would mitigate things a bit.

Got a link?
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RaulGroom Donating Member (331 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Another myth
There is a lot of misinformation floating around about Ali, I guess because his legend was so huge. A few of his opponents did refuse to call him Ali, but Frazier wasn't one of them. One of the reasons Frazier took Ali's namecalling so personally is that he had always treated Ali with the utmost respect.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #29
42. I knew there was I reason I hadn't heard that, Raul
It never happened.

I tried a Google search and also came up dry.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. Oh, please!! That was all part of the pre-fight hype to generate...
...even more sports betting and more television viewers.

Can't believe you even posted this crap.
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RaulGroom Donating Member (331 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. Reasonable people can disagree
About the appropriateness of Ali's taunting of Frazier. I tend to take the view that in professional boxing, anything you can do to get a mental edge, go for it. Others think Ali crossed the line. It doesn't make you a bad person to think either way. However, after the third fight (when Ali knew there would be no Ali/Frazier IV) Ali dropped the animosity immediately. It was clearly never personal for Ali, but it was personal for Frazier, and it really hurt his feelings.

It's not a simple issue.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #30
46. Frazier Took It Much More Serious Than Ali...
I think Ali wanted to get under his skin but I don't think he meant to inflict psychic pain which he unfortunately did...


I just finished reading the greatest book on Ali...It's called Facing Ali-Fifteeen Of His Opponents Speak

It includes accounts by Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, Larry Holmes, Karl Mildenburger, George Chuvalo, and others...


Out of all of them George Foreman is by far the most magnaminous... I love Big George too.....

My love for boxing emanates from the fact that my dad was a Golden Gloves boxer and my uncle was the National Guard champion during WW2....
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RaulGroom Donating Member (331 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
25. To learn an interesting lesson about bias
Talk to a right-winger about Ali the boxer. Almost 100% of right-wingers, particularly racist right-wingers, will tell you Ali is overrated as a fighter . I had a guy tell me once that it was a "FACT that Ali lost 11 fights but was handed the victory by corrupt judges."

Quite aside from the idea that this could be regarded as a FACT, having read a great deal of historical information about the boxing game in that time, it strikes me as quite humorous, this idea that the boxing establishment was pro-Ali in the 1960's.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #25
38. Ali, MLK, JFK, and RFK
Edited on Mon Nov-03-03 06:03 PM by DemocratSinceBirth
were my heroes when I was a kid in the sixties and seventies and they are still by heroes now but none of them are cardboard saints including Ali...

He unwittingly played into racist sterotypes by calling Frazier a gorilla... He lambasted Floyd Patterson for acting "white" ...
He mercilessly carried and beat Ernie Terrel for not calling him Ali....

But all that is outweighed by the good things he did.... His opposition to the Viet Nam War.... His importance as a symbol to African Americans, etcetera....

He gets a pass from me....

His autograph sits proudly in my office next to an autographed picture of Bill Clinton....


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saoirse Donating Member (257 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
28. What really pissed the proto-freepers off about The Greatest
Was that he refused to kill people in a war waged by imperialists against the colonized, but at the same time, he was the epitome of strength and power. His courage was beyond question, and he could kick anybody's ass - something the right-wingers have always wished they could say about themselves. Instead, they sit on their couches and think they're being super-patriots because they're in favor of sending people to die in wars - as long as it's not them.

So Ali, with his moral AND physical courage, was everything the right-wingers wished THEY were, but weren't. And because he was an African-American, they were even more incensed. Because not only could Ali kick they're ass, he was much smarter and more eloquent than they could ever hope to be, and had a keen sense of morality as well. In short, The Greatest is the quintessential anti-freeper.


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heidiho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
31. He sat in front of me on a recent flight to Germany in October
and he looked great. He was with his wife and two handlers and smiled and shook hands with the passengers in our area on his way to the restroom.

He was a class act! No one bothered him - I guess out of respect for him, as did I.

I was thrilled to say the least!!!
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Don_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
32. Not In Louisville
He is highly respected here to the point that the city named a main street after him 20 or 30 years ago.

Super nice guy, quite and a little shy. I met him once and didn't have the heart to ask for his autograph; it took about three to five minutes for him to sign his name each time and I didn't have the heart to ask after seeing the frustration on his face.
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #32
39. That was nice of
you.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #32
47. My Mom Met Him In 87
Edited on Mon Nov-03-03 09:13 PM by DemocratSinceBirth
and literally told him "my son loves you"....

She got his autograph for me....


I can remember laying big money as a kid on him in his fight with Foreman... Most but not all of my friends thought Ali would get killed ... They were wrong...


I remember listening to the fight on the radio. It wasn't blow by blow but they would have an account after every round.... Somehow they lost their signal for rounds three or four through eight... When they got the signal back saying Ali knocked out Foreman I was besides myself....

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_Jumper_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
48. Islam doesn't forbid fighting wars
Edited on Mon Nov-03-03 09:23 PM by _Jumper_
Many of Islam's most popular heroes are warriors. All religions are intolerant. Islam, Judaism, and Christianity are all very violent. The difference, IMO, is that Islam's early history and its greatest heroes are almost all warriors. That is what makes it more violent than the other two monotheistic religions, who to be fair, are no slouches when it comes to being violent.
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SmokeyBlues Donating Member (385 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
49. Not Frazier...
But Floyd Patterson who refused to recognize Ali's new Muslim name. It was also Patterson who boasted before a fight with Ali that not only was he going to defeat Ali, but also (and more symbolically) return the heavyweight championship to the Christians.

As we all know now, Floyd got a good ass-whupping that day.

As for Frazier being upset that Ali called him a Gorilla, he should consider that Ali called Wilt Chamberlain a 'Billy goat' when the basketball great challenged Ali to a match, and said that it was against the law to fight them.

As someone else pointed out, Ali was all about drawing paying customers to his fights, even if it meant sometimes saying 'not-so-nice' things about his opponents. But in the end, both men usually made out well financially, at least on that particular night.

Also, Ali had this to say about Frazier, the man who he had no respect for:

"Of all the men I fought, Sonny Liston was the scariest, George Foreman was the most powerful, Floyd Patterson was the most skilled as a boxer," Ali once said. "But the roughest and toughest was Joe Frazier.

He brought out the best in me, and the best fight we fought was in Manila."


Oh, one last comment. I too grew up in a Black neighborhood, but unlike the other poster's experience, Ali was well respected in my neighborhood mainly for his charisma, convictions, unabashed display of ethnic pride, and his courage standing up to a blatantly racist (national and local) sports media and society in general. As for Frazier being perceived as white America's champion, truth is he was only the latest in a line of Black boxers to be crowned with that dubious distinction beginning with Sonny Liston.

The majority of white Americans who followed professional boxing, and even many who were casual viewers, didn't try to hide their dislike of Ali and their desire to see him publicly humiliated in the ring, if not seriously injured. Even Ali said that the reason why he sprung to his feet so quickly after being floored by Frazier in their first fight was that he knew there were a lot of people hoping he would not be able to get up.

Many white Americans didn't like Ali for one reason or another; therefore, any Black boxer who went up against Ali became, by default and not by his own choosing, white America's champion.

Enough of this. Time to check out the hometown Patriots on Monday Night Football.

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