The worst consequences of the Bush wiretaps haven't even hit yet.

[Justice Is Comin]

Obviously, it is pretty clear Bush has violated federal law by ignoring the FISA court. No twisting or contorting of the executive ordered illegal wiretaps can be explained away. Even Alan Dershowitz, professor of law at Harvard, who takes great pride in his constitutional legal knowledge, has said Bush violated the law. As we know, this paves the way literally and credibly for impeachment.

But what also has not been thought of is that the names of all the individuals who were the subject of these warrant-less wiretaps will now have to be disclosed, even if in secret session. And any information gathered as a result of this eavesdropping will now not be admissible in a court proceeding. Because the information was illegally obtained.

All of these cases, which may or may not have had merit if only the simple process of a warrant had been secured, will have to have all this evidence thrown out. It will be the first thing any lawyer of these individuals will demand. Not only that, it will possibly open up every case of every conviction previously. It will put tremendous pressure on the FOIA office to release information to anyone who requests it to see if their name has been targeted or business covertly surveiled.

This has limitless repercussions. The government could easily be subject to civil liability and wrongful act lawsuits. This scandal will dominate the news for months and so will the domino effects. Forget the effects of Alito, the State of the Union address. People will be be more outraged looking at his face or hearing his voice every day.

Sit back, we're going for a great ride.

:beer: :puffpiece: BOOM!!!!

[cal04]

1. I wonder how many republicans are being spied on

I wouldn't doubt they were spying on their own

[HysteryDiagnosis]

3. That one answer alone would close the deal... the percentages

of pugs vs mules.

[PurpleChez]

4. I wouldn't doubt it for a minute.

And imagine how bad it will look for them when it comes out that they were wiretapping some independent-minded centrist republican or some church of the bretheren congregation that was involved in peace work. I'm miffed that people didn't get this upset about * murdering 10's of 1000's of people, but at least they're upset.

[Fovea]

23. I will put a fiver on McCain

and another one on Snowe.

[myrna minx]

38. I'll see your McCain and raise you a Hagle and a Chafee.

How about Gray Davis and Paul Wellstone?

I wonder if any of this could possibly tied into Abramoff. There is nothing to suggest that there is, just my wild speculation, but look at the windfalls this guy has received over the years. Having inside info is something this guy has taken to the bank for years.

Like I said, it's just my speculation, but one has to wonder.

on edit-correct my creative spelling. :silly:

[Virginian]

37. They have to spy on their own, to make sure everyone is still in lockstep.

It is more important to make sure their base isn't eroding than to spy on us.

Having said that, this is beginning to look more and more like Watergate. Were they spying on the DNC? the DLC? John Kerry?

During the Watergate time, John Mitchell's wife Martha was talking to the press. Later she died of cancer (I think breast cancer) leaving behind a daughter of grade school age. I wondered about the method of surveillance and if it might have somehow triggered her cancer.

[toymachines]

2. good point

this better be a good ride

[Solomon]

5. I see one problem with your analysis. The whole reason for not

going through the FISA courts was so that a record would NOT be made of who was being spied on. We will never know who they were tapping. All the FISA cases have records of who is being watched. Not the unFISA cases.

[Justice Is Comin]

8. That is what the illegal actions of dork nuts has

set into motion now. Any individual who was targeted through these means was done so without court approval and as such illegal. If they are brought into any kind of prosecutorial action, they will immediately request the court to throw out any evidence which may have been obtained by wiretap or surveillance. The court will be forced to grant the motion. This includes terrorists!!

[myrna minx]

40. Can you imagine the fallout if some of these alleged dossiers

turn up? Especially if they are files on political foes and not of actual anti-terrorism intel? There is a paper trail somewhere.

[SmokingJacket]

44. That was my thought too...

but now I'm beginning to think there must be a list somewhere. Somewhere.... maybe someone stashed one away somewhere, to hang onto until needed...

[lildreamer316]

6. WOW.WOW WOW.

DO they FREAKING realize HOW MUCH DAMAGE he has DONE to the agenda?
OH my goodness. You're a genius.....
Wow. Thank You. Noting this and watching this intently.

[SpiralHawk]

7. Americans should meditate on this while paying their heating bills

I think that setting -- checkbook in hand -- provides the proper FIRE of ILLUMINATION for rumination about how the Feds have been poking their big fat ugly noses into the lives of private American Citizens.

BigBushCo is lying and spying, secret prisoning, torturing, and failing in general to demonstrate any competence or vision or concern about the American people.

[hlthe2b]

9. I'm willing to bet it was political opponents that were tapped...

and that's why they couldn't go to FISA nor COngress and are shitting a brick now...

[Justice Is Comin]

10. I'd bet money on that too.

Just like Nixon's enemies list. It's going to be astounding to see how impeachable this gets.

[IkeWarnedUs]

12. I think political opponents, but maybe some special terrorists

Disclaimer: I have believed LIHOP since LIHOP wasn't cool - and am open to the possibility of MIHOP.


I started thinking, what if they were really spying on suspected terrorists - people legitimately plotting to attack and kill Americans on American soil. But what if the reason they didn't want their spying known is that they didn't want to share the information they were getting with the NSA, FBI, CIA or anyone else in the alphabet soup?

What if they wanted to monitor the plots to attack America to decide if and when they needed another 9/11 to bolster their support?

Sure, they could get FISA warrants to do what they did - and that will probably be a big part of their defense. But if they went through the system there would be a paper trail showing who they followed and (after the fact) what they should have found out.

And what the hell - why not spy on your political opponents while you're at it. Wouldn't be the first time . . .

[LibertyorDeath]

16. Give the Lady a Cigar !

"What if they wanted to monitor the plots to attack America to decide if and when they needed another 9/11 to bolster their support?"

:applause::applause::applause:

[ClayZ]

24. Oh, Bingo!

That would make sleazy secret planning of HORROR a little easier!






edit to kick:



:kick:

[JerseygirlCT]

11. And when that evidence is thrown out -- who will he blame?

That nasty NYT for letting people know about it.

It won't be his crime, it will be letting anyone know about his crime.

I guarantee it.

[bobbieinok]

18. just like----torture at AbuG wasn't the problem; the pictures were the pro

problem

[JerseygirlCT]

30. Exactly. Because simply by definition

he's the president, therefore he can do no wrong.

[tavalon]

35. Ah yes,

the Rumsfeld Doctrine.

[OneBlueSky]

13. what court cases? . . . they don't need no stinkin' court cases! . . .

they just round 'em up, toss 'em in some remote prison camp, and they're "disappeared" . . . you think BushCo has the time or the patience to bother with court cases? . . . puh-leeez! . . . :sarcasm:

[Polemonium]

31. and what convictions?? Name one

The justice department has been mostly shut out of this game for awhile.

[BurtWorm]

14. You hit the nail right on the head.

The Post is reporting that a FISA judge is preparing a paper to explain to her peers the possible repercussions of these illegal wiretaps, precisely along the lines you're drawing. This is going to hit the counterterror campaign like a comandeered airliner.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

15. What is it called? The fruit of the poisoned tree?

That's a term they're going to hear a hell of a lot if they try using their illegally obtained information in a real courtroom.

[Lars39]

17. Recommended.

Good gawd, the mind reels trying to keep up with their shyte.

[BrotherBuzz]

19. Fruit of the poisonous tree

fruit of the poisonous tree

n. in criminal law, the doctrine that evidence discovered due to information found through illegal search or other unconstitutional means (such as a forced confession) may not be introduced by a prosecutor. The theory is that the tree (original illegal evidence) is poisoned and thus taints what grows from it. For example, as part of a coerced admission made without giving a prime suspect the so-called "Miranda warnings" (statement of rights, including the right to remain silent and what he/she says will be used against them), the suspect tells the police the location of stolen property. Since the admission cannot be introduced as evidence in trial, neither can the stolen property.

Boom!

[myrna minx]

39. Geez-I just thought of Jose Padilla.

Is this one of the reasons that he was hastily dumped off into criminal court and his status as 'enemy combatant' removed? Hmm...

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/12/22/news/policy.php

On Wednesday, the appeals panel said that the Justice Department's effort to transfer Padilla gave the appearance that the government was trying to manipulate the court system to prevent the Supreme Court from reviewing the case.

The original allegation that Padilla was part of a bomb plot was not mentioned in a Justice Department indictment on Nov. 22, which said only that Padilla was part of a terror cell that supported violent acts overseas.

[roguevalley]

20. Imagine how many INNOCENT people will be stigmatized. He has

changed the outer world to match the inner chaotic freak world of his inner mind. God help us all.

[SammyWinstonJack]

22. Well at least gays can't marry!

:sarcasm:

[Pachamama]

21. JUST REMEMBER: If anyone says Dems made America "unsafe" against the

terrorists who want to attack us, remind them that its the Republicans and the Bush Administration.

Bush Co. will try to say its the Dems making America unsafe when all the evidence collected is thrown out and was going to be used in a court case against a suspect. The reality is that it is the Repukes in the Bush Administration who went about doing these unauthorized and illegal spying and they made that decision and it is their responsibility to follow the law.

I absolutely agree that the fallout and consequences of this whole illegal action by Bush and his administration hasn't even begun to be felt. But I'll take it a step further, aside from "possible" suspects truly associated with Al Qaida that were being watched, I believe that they "spyed" on many people with no ties (known or otherwise) and that these names will include politicians, judges and media people....That's when its really going to get interesting!

[LunaC]

25. Brilliant observation - K & R

[Hissyspit]

26. Very good food for thought. K&R

Popcorn? Yum.

[donheld]

27. Impeachment = Bush's lump of coal

We all know he's been not just bad, but horrible the last several years. He may finally be getting the biggest lump of coal known to man.

[yurbud]

28. Does this mean Dems will finally grow the balls to block Alito?

[tavalon]

29. How do you get that all the names will have to be released?

This administration is one of the most closed to the public ever. Why would that change? Who would have the clout to change it?

[Clark2008]

32. What the OP is saying is that anyone brought up on charges

related to the "war on terra" will immediately challenge how information was gathered about them - and, if it includes wiretapping - then the defendent's attorney will make a motion to surpress any information given that the president freely and openly admitted that he violated the Fourth Amendment by supercede the FISA court for permission to wiretap.

Without that information - gathered legally or illegally - then the defendent - even if he is a real terrorist - will go free in many cases because that information can't be used against him.

[tavalon]

34. Ah, I misunderstood

I see what was being said. Yeah, I can agree with that.

[OldCurmudgeon]

36. example, that muslim prof in florida

that just got his "supporting terrorism"case tossed (partly aquitted, partly hung jury?) A lot of the evidence was from wiretaps.

That would be a *really* good one to go back and demand "show us the warrants for those wiretaps!"

Find one example of someone wiretapped without a FISA warrant, then file a federal civil lawsuit for violation of 4th amendment rights, "under color of law", which (IIRC) makes it possible to bring it as a RICO suit. If ever there was a "corrupt organization", it's the Bush administration.

[lonestarnot]

41. Bushitler is such a fucking genius egh?

[C_U_L8R]

33. Jim Robinson and Free Republic

It's a fact that every single post to Free Republic
is diverted, copied, source coded, sorted,
key worded and stored in an NSA mainframe.
It's insurance for when the Freeps get out of line.
Same goes for Focus on Family and the other Fundie groups.

[The Stranger]

42. What makes you think they plan to introduce this as evidence in court?

It is more likely that they plan to seize individuals, including citizens, and have them shipped to foreign countries to be tortured, possibly murdered.

Read the decision handed down by the Fourth Circuit yesterday. These people spying on innocents and seizing innocents to hold them indefinitely without charge for years simply have no use for courts.

[greiner3]

43. Who will start impeachment?

It won't be the house. Maybe, just maybe, our side will take it over so a real investigation can occur.

[Hissyspit]

45. That is the $64,000 question.

kick