Why do they want Stanley Tookie Williams executed?

[nofurylike]

Read this article to find out.

Stanley Tookie Williams – America’s ‘strange fruit’

by Donna J. Warren
12/7/05

Kanye West said, “George Bush doesn’t care about Black people.” Neither does America.

Why do they want Stanley Tookie Williams executed? Is it because he was convicted of murdering four people?

Intrinsically racist White Americans lynch “strange fruit” like Stan Williams in American courts of law all the time. In these kangaroo courts, Black people, innocent or guilty, are convicted and sentenced to death.

<snip>

Bloodthirsty America sanctions murder when people of color are involved – look at the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis dead with no remorse by America. Killing people of color has never been a problem for America. It’s how America became America.

Murdering Tookie and ensuring ghetto Blacks continue to fall into the pit of gang life is America. America cannot let Tookie live, for to do so means America cares about the young people who are driven into the gang life, and we know by empirical evidence that that is not so.

Read the rest @ http://www.sfbayview.com/120705/strangefruit120705.shtml

If you're not like them, please email, call and fax the governor and ask him to grant clemency:

phone: [phone]

email: [email protected]

FAX: [phone]


thank you

[MrSlayer]

1. They want him dead because he is an unrepentant mass murdering thug.

Simple as that. Let's not make it any more than it is.

[sandnsea]

2. We don't execute more minorities?

Just asking.

[MrSlayer]

7. Well according to statistics, no.

Shall I retrieve them from another of these ridiculous "save Tookie" threads?

[sandnsea]

12. You really ignore all the studies

The ones that show that minorities don't get the same representation, that we don't ask for the death penalty on whites as often. How does your conscience allow you to just look the other way to what's obvious?

[Sapphire Blue]

21. That denial permits racism to survive... and thrive.

[goclark]

264. That racism is what is keeping GWB in the WH today

Katrina was a double edged sword.

I bet there were lots of people that were glad to see Black People in the water and begging for their lives with dignity.

Just heard that GW's poll numbers went up with WHITE MALES and Republicans.
That let me know that it was still about putting "those Muslims" in their place, wanting the innocent and the terrorists to die.

And, it must also be that the way that Katrina was mishandled by the Bush Administration was just right with the RIGHT and for some on the so called left.

The bully ability to keep blacks imprisoned and to get the DP makes some feel superior.

That is why we have a lot of closet RIGHT WINGS in the LEFT WING party.

[nofurylike]

43. there is a chart showing that more white men are executed. they

feel that that is proof the DP is not implemented discriminatorily.

try as they might, people could not clear up that misconception.

[KC_25]

109. 10 of the last 12 executions in Cali were white men

1 was black..

[noiretextatique]

261. that's proves nothing, btw

but thanks for the distraction.

[goclark]

265. None needed to be executed because it is Barbaric for all races

[MrSlayer]

51. I think that's really a class issue.

If you have money, you can get off, no matter how guilty you are. If you don't, you're fucked, unless you're lucky. It doesn't really matter what color you are or what you did. There are a lot of poor whites who get fucked the same way. The key word is poor. The powers that be don't give a damn about any of us.

[nofurylike]

65. it is a class issue, but here we have more of a caste system than class.

poorest white is just that much more privileged than poor black, and is also baited by the promise of privilege to turn against other poor, especially the poorest; just as rich blacks are baited with privilege to turn agains other blacks.

so, i agree: "The powers that be don't give a damn about any of us."
but they do know how to use us as their footsoldiers against each other.

it is the accepting of that privilege, in trade for, let's say, not questioning the state's facts about the Stans of the world, that makes us culpable, collaborators in those crimes against him. then, we think we have more to lose in seeing - when, in reality, losing our decency, our hope for an equitable society is really far worse than losing material privilege. but we don't know that, because we are, then, so afraid to find ourelves the less privileged (who we've oppressed and, like now, despised).
when we turn against each other, then let the state give us the reasons we can feel comfortable doing that, as with this case, it is realy because we are afraid to lose our own privilege. something hard to face.

something that play off very complex guilt systems, that cause the kind of frenzied defensivenss seen in these threds.

[KC_25]

74. he is guilty...

accept that he is guilty and say that the Death Penalty in any case is wrong...would be far better for the anti death penalty cause than to try and rally behind this murderous thug...
You keep saying that he didnt get a fair trial, and that the only reason that he was found guilty was because of his race, and top of that the only reason that he was given the death penalty was because of his race.
guess what, when they ask for clemency for scott peterson, I am going to say that his ass needs to die too. Are you going to be here posting this same kind of BS rhetoric in his defense? I doubt it.
let murderers pay for their crimes in the way that the law has prescribed.

[geomon666]

242. I'll be for clemency

I don't like the death penalty but I like it even less when it's used on a person convicted on circumstantial evidence.

[Greyhound]

178. I call Bullshit. It is ALL about money

This poor white is better than poor hispanic is better than poor black is just bullshit. If you're poor, you're fucked. Period. The race issue is just a red herring to keep poor people from realizing they have a common enemy and common goals.

[TheFarseer]

212. Yes, absolutely correct

If I killed 4 people, they would fry my ass in the electric chair. Being white won't get you a damn thing if you killed 4 people and you have a court appointed lawyer - or probably even any lawyer short of a Johnnie Cochran. The scum at the top hates "inner city blacks" and "poor white trash" equally.

[goclark]

266. Then let's refuse to renew the Voting Rights Act for inner city

Blacks and Poor Whites.

That should really prove that there is equal disregard for poor whites (I won't call them trash) and poor Blacks.

Ain't no way that the Racists would stand for taking the Vote away from Poor White People.

[noiretextatique]

262. true...and not

all poor people are fucked...black and hispanic ones, even more so.

[Greyhound]

291. True... and not

There is certainly racism in amerika, and it is the darker your skin the more you're discriminated against, so Whites have it a little better than asians who have it a little better than hispanics who have it a little than blacks. The point, IMO, is that arguing over the increments of injustice distracts from, and allows, the real injustice of the insane distribution of wealth to continue without even a discussion.

[noiretextatique]

294. i hear you, but i disagree

i don't think discussing the reality of racism somehow detracts from the insanity of wealth (re)distribution. i think the problem is that some people use race as a distraction, and that other people are in fact distracted by it. that's why some continue to use it as a distraction: it works.

[catnhatnh]

91. Ding, Ding, Ding....

....Holy OJ and the white dismemberer.Holy Little Rascals! Y'all caught the class connection?With OJ's team Tookie pleads to annoying a white and get's several hours.He is a thug and a murderer but that doesn't mean I want to kill him...

[sandnsea]

95. Yeah, that's always the excuse

The difference is, I can go down to the second hand clothes store and pick out a first class outfit and shoes. Do my hair and make-up and go anywhere I want, nobody knows the difference.

Poor washes off. Black doesn't. Being a minority is poor x 10.

Certainly we've made alot of progress. But we've never done to any group of people, poor or not, what we're doing to those in New Orleans. It is known that drugs that whites tend to do, especially upper class whites, don't carry the same penalties of minority drug offenses. Racism still exists in this country.

And the fact that young white men who can get the same grants and loans that any minority can get, but refuse to, then blame their poverty on minorities, proves it more than anything else does.

[MrSlayer]

128. I'm not claiming that racism is dead in society. Only a fool would.

I'm just saying racism has nothing to do with Tookie and his case in itself. You have to isolate the event. I agree the reason he ended up as he did had something to do with his environment but at the end of the day you are responsible for the things you do. No matter how poor you are or mistreated you have to know it's wrong to hurt and mistreat others, you know how it feels. There are so many people who rise above their harsh conditions, do the right thing and make something of themselves. Tookie obviously has charisma and leadership ability, imagine if he had applied himself differently. He chose to go another way and now does not want to face the consequences of his actions.

Basically, yeah his conditions were poor and society sucks but he didn't have to kill those people.

[sandnsea]

218. So, racism affects environment

but racism doesn't affect the justice system. Is that it?

[KC_25]

230. What is racist about this?

http://www.johnandkenshow.com/blogimages/tookievictim3adweb.jp g

?

[sandnsea]

235. It's one-sided

And incomplete. Besides, I suspect many pro-death posters don't care about the facts anyway. The racism could be blatant and they'd still deny it, as the poster I responded to has done. It's the unwillingness to even acknowledge the possibility that I object to.

[KC_25]

237. One sided?

The man put a shotgun pretty close to her face and pulled the trigger. I can understand your objections, I simply do not buy that this case and sentence was merely the product of racism.

[sandnsea]

239. Did I say that?

Where'd I say that? Racism is rarely that blatant or simple. And in 81, we were just beginning to look at the ways race fit into our justice system. The propensity for blacks killing whites to receive the death penalty and the reverse not being true. Ever heard of the Stockholm Syndrome? I don't know what it's like to grow up with the notion that white is sacrosanct above all other races, I don't know how deeply that goes into a person's psyche.

In any event, I didn't know that the gun was found under the roommate's bed. I didn't know that the roommate was later charged on a robbery-murder. I didn't know they really did let some of the other criminals involved off completely.

None of this is really my basis for supporting clemency anyway. The fact is that we have lost the concept of mercy in this country. 25% of death sentences used to be commuted. Governors are afraid to do that anymore. Particularly for a big burly black gang member. Racism?

[MrSlayer]

250. I'm sure that it can.

It just hasn't in this case.

[QC]

157. "Poor washes off."

Only someone who has never been poor would imagine such a thing.

[sandnsea]

217. I've been homeless and without food

You can't get much poorer than I've been during several points in my adult life. You can present yourself where nobody would be the wiser. Minorities are minorities and if someone is inclined to discriminate against them, they have to deal with it and there's no two ways around it. I'm not even going to pretend being poor is as difficult as being poor AND a minority.

[Mutley]

111. The blatant racism was ignored during Katrina, too.

Some people just don't want to upset their happy little world.

[nofurylike]

126. absolutely. the worst, most blatant imaginable. and yes, many don't

want to upset their happy unearned-privileged little world.

thank you

[Mutley]

129. It's disgusting.

Sick and disgusting.

[nofurylike]

134. yes. unbearably so. .

[KC_25]

192. as disgusting as this young ladies death?

http://www.johnandkenshow.com/blogimages/tookievictim3adweb. jpg

[Mutley]

206. Yes.

I will say this YET AGAIN: I have never argued Tookie's innocence. NEVER. I oppose the death penalty in all situations, including this one. What I am referring to is the glee some people seem to have in expressing their hatred for Tookie and their desire to see him die. I find that disgusting, especially coming from so-called liberals.

[KC_25]

208. well, it is certainly your right to feel disgusted

as it is others right to want to see the verdict that he was sentenced to, carried out.

[Mutley]

210. It's one thing to want to see the verdict

that he was sentenced to carried out, it's another thing entirely to celebrate that death like it's some big party.

[KC_25]

216. Ok,

Let me clarify then.
Unless he demonstrates some real atonement,(as in admits his crimes and starts singing like a canary to authorties) I want to see the verdict carried out, and I feel that he deserves it.
What infuriates me is the premise that is laid out that he is in fact innocent of the crimes, and is merely the victim in this case. I am sure that is what upsets so many, and why they are so adamantly for his execution under the current circumstances..
just my opinion.

[Wind Dancer]

232. I can't understand the reason why so many people are rejoicing.

It's been shocking to read so many posts that not only endorse this barbaric practice but will celebrate the execution of another human being. I just don't get it coming from a progressive website.

[Aretha]

236. Why don't you link to a few of the many "rejoicing" posts

I'd like to see what you mean by your post.

[nofurylike]

243. drop everything! educate her, educate her! like you'd listen, ever. eom

[KC_25]

271. I am waiting for the education

..
I see people who want the verdict for the unrepentent man that did this carried out

http://www.johnandkenshow.com/blogimages/tookievictim3a... jpg

[nofurylike]

4. HONK! wrong. eom

[MrSlayer]

6. Honk! I'm right.

What's with all the honking?

Nobody would be putting this jackass to death if he hadn't murdered a bunch of people. That's the bottom line.

[nofurylike]

15. did you read the article, by any chance? will you, and comment on that?

thank you

[KC_25]

38. Did you read this?

http://www.knowgangs.com/blog/tookie.htm

Will you?, and then comment on it?

[nofurylike]

82. yes, i have read it. i have commented on it, repeatedly.

the prosecutor has been proven to have been prejudiced - more than just towards wanting to be 'the winner,' which can prejudice most people.
taking his word for things *entirely* because he is the state is dangerous. the root of tyranny.

an example most who present that document don't want to examine, but have been offered, is the fact that the shotgun has never ever been proven to have been used BY Stan.
all eye witnesses have been discredited.

just two examples, but enough to merit a new trial. all other exculpatory evidence - that which could exonerate Stan - was thrown out for no other reason than to railroad him.

now, i never said he is innocent. no one but him knows that. but also no one but him knows if he is guilty. including you.

with the DP, ANY doubt is too much doubt.

what would it hurt you, or anyone, to not execute him, and sentence him to life without parole, if it means being CERTAIN of not executing him for being a terrorized child who at 17 years old started a group that was intended to protect him and around thirty friends from the adult gangs all around them, and constantly endangering them?
he later said that it was years before he looked and realized he had only, in fact, created another gang.

which he has worked ceaselessly to correct, ever since realizing it. that work long now benefitting other youngsters who are in the same circumstances he was in when he started the crips.

as the article ends: "If Tookie dies, we lose a voice who can speak to our children in ways we never could. If Tookie dies, our children lose!"

[KC_25]

89. Oh really? Because I have asked you and SB several times

to comment on it, and this is the first time that I have even seen a reply other than standard "you have no compassion" line

OMFG you just called the crips a group, that he started out of terror? ROTFLMAO...
BS he has worked ceaselessly to correct the situation, if he were working ceaselessly to correct it, he would have turned over the names of gang leaders, where they operate, how etc... he wouldn't have tried to write a book that sold ~330 copies...

If tookie dies we lose a murderous thug who has a callous disregard for all life except his own.

You obviously didnt read the site, if you say that all eyewitnesses have been discredited, you also fail to mention that the "married couple" whose bed the shotgun was found under was Tookies Step father, with whom he lived...

Are you going to care this much when Scott Peterson gets the needle? there were no eyewitnesses to his crime, but I think that he did it as well...
Somehow, I think you will care about as much as I will when he finally faces the needle.

[nofurylike]

123. only time for two things, for now. we kept telling you that it was there.

and where. it was you all who prefered others do your research for you.

if you think back, i was disappointed that so many of you didn't feel justice was worth your time.

just let the state tell you what to think.

i will vigorously fight mr peterson's execution, yes.

i fight all death penalties.

not here though. i will not do this here again. not as discussion. back to action alerts only.

you're welcome, in advance, for that.


got to run soon, and other posts i want to read.

[KC_25]

130. I read almost every piece of propaganda that you posted

I listened to that "interview" that you linked too
and I have done my own research reading the actual court documents, reading the alot of the appeals and legal pleadings as well...
For every claim that the tookie crowd has made there is information readily available to debunk it, you just have to wade through all the save tookie propaganda to get to it.
Justice is worth my time, or I wouldnt be here arguing that he is guilty.

Good for you on fighting Scott Peterson's death penalty. He should get hte needle post haste, and Ill be here to argue that with you...

No, I would rather that you did post them in here, One thing I have learned is that you can not be thin skinned in here

What about Mr, beardslee, I didnt notice any big stink, from almost anyone, here or otherwise, about his execution a year ago..

[nofurylike]

133. there ya go again. "propaganda." it's actually the other way around.

but, no mind. i'm short of time.

beardslee. biggest problem is when we're sure that a court can't possibly NOT reverse. there was a basis for it.

all reasons we must end ALL DP.

[KC_25]

137. Court papers

are propaganda now? The transcripts of the trial are propaganda?
wow

[nofurylike]

144. kind of the way you just called the court document of the dissenting

opinion of 9 judges from the 9th circuit court propaganda, no?

wow

[KC_25]

159. well, lets see if they had the majority of judges

they wouldn't be the dissenting opinion would they?

and why don't you cite the courts decision?

[nofurylike]

220. you and others cover the *majority* decision repeatedly. it is well

established in these threads, and conceded.

what you continue to ignore is that that court never heard the case at all, the majority right off voting to not hear it.

the odd thing is that you keep suggesting that the majority decision erases the conclusions of NINE 9th circuit court judges:

Judge: "...our solemn obligation to provide color-blind tribunals...."

UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS
FOR THE NINTH CIRCUIT

-snip

The full court was advised of the petition for rehearing en
banc. A judge requested a vote on whether to rehear the matter
en banc. The matter failed to receive a majority of the
votes of the nonrecused active judges in favor of en banc consideration.
Fed. R. App. P. 35.

-snip

RAWLINSON, Circuit Judge, with whom PREGERSON,
REINHARDT, THOMAS, WARDLAW, W. FLETCHER,
FISHER, PAEZ, and BERZON, Circuit Judges join, dissenting
from denial of rehearing en banc:
In this case, a prosecutor, publicly castigated by the Supreme Court of California for his pattern of racially motivated peremptory jury challenges, removed all blacks from Williams’ jury. In declining to take this case en banc, our court bestows an implicit imprimatur upon the trial court’s denial of a constitutionally mandated jury selection process.
In my view, the panel opinion contains two errors: (1) failure
to issue a certificate of appealability (COA) to Williams despite his satisfaction of the standard for the grant of a COA, and (2) misapplication of the standard of proof to establish a prima facie case of Batson error. By increasing the burden of proof necessary to make a Batson prima facie showing, the panel cleared the way for attorneys “who are of a mind to discriminate” by exercising their peremptory challenges to excise prospective African-American jurors from the jury box. Batson v. Kentucky, 476 U.S. 79, 96 (1986).
I dissent from the denial of rehearing en banc not only because every defendant is entitled to a jury that is unbiased and untainted by racial discrimination in the jury-selection process, but also because the very legitimacy of our system of justice depends upon continued vigilance against such practices.

-snip-

***

link:
Ninth Circuit Court Opinions page, scroll down to Feb 2, 2005 - Williams vs Woodford.

http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/ca9/newopinions.nsf/Opinions%20by%20date?OpenView&Start=1&Count=100&Expand=1.11#1.11

i hope you will read the entire document. it is important.

thank you

[KC_25]

222. Umm, well lets see...

Oh yeah, it does. It is called the rule of law, and need I remind that this is one of the most liberal courts in the country, and if they didnt overturn or buy the story, then there is little hope for any other court to do it?

[MrSlayer]

46. I read it and it's complete and utter tripe.

In fact I could barely get through it. Crying because of the racial makeup of the jury now, when for all these years it was never an issue and the whole "jury of his peers" thing is ridiculous. Should the jury have consisted of gang bangers, junkies, whores and drug dealers? Who do you think his peers were? Should mobsters be tried by other mobsters? Corrupt CEOs by other CEOs? They just pick people at random for jury duty and the defense can pick off anyone they want. He had a good defense team.

And then to bring up the Jim Crow laws and the "breed" of people who implemented them back in the day in reference to the jury is really weak and racist itself.

White serial killers are put to death, more white people are executed than any other race. It is not just a black punishment.

Then saying that white people don't care about the asians that were murdered by this guy because of Vietnam is beyond ridiculous and moronic. Did she fail to notice that large portion of the Anti-War movement back then was white? Is this woman stupid or just willfully ignorant?

"Murdering" Tookie won't make a difference in the gang community except maybe to show these guys where they'll end up. But they don't care and won't drop their guns because Tookie has made it look glamorous. And by refusing to "snitch" and bring the gang's operation to it's knees he's showing them he's still down despite the books and the propaganda.

Then she talks about the "illusion" of gang life, as if it's just a fairy tale made up simply to execute innocent black people and keep the jail system intact. If it's an illusion, then what good are Tookie's books doing? There is no gang life.

Then she says it's noble of him to not "snitch" and help solve murders and other crimes as well as cripple the whole gang structure. If he's really turned and wants to end it he would do it. My opinion is that he hasn't turned and this is all bullshit.

Then we hear about his nobel prize nominations which means exactly nothing since I could put anyone at all up for one. Adolf and Arafat both were nominated and hell, Arafat won one. Then we hear about the nice movie they made about him and his great intellect.

Then she claims Crittendon falsely accuses Tookie of plotting gangland activity with no proof which is, as usual, bullshit. They intercepted his letters and drawings pertaining to an escape attempt involving other Crips in which several guards would be murdered. Then there is the website conspiracy where comments were "removed" and unfavorable ones put in. Where is the proof of this?

"We pretend to warn children about the dangers of gang life, but if Tookie is put to death, our pretensions will be exposed for the lies they really are."

Not at all. This is the best way to warn children about the dangers of gang life. Every child should see and hear about it. THIS is your ultimate fate if you get involved with gangs.

Terrible article, very ignorant of facts.

[nofurylike]

115. 'don't get in gangs because you'll get killed'? think about that.

now...

crittendon's charges were overturned by a prison court. he was forced to retract them. but you still keep hearing them repeated, don't you?

you are a professor? a government official? no, not just anyone can nominate for a nobel. one of his nominations was by a member of the Swiss parliament.

it is noble that he did not snitch to ease his own condition, when there was not legal obligation to snitch. he was *never asked to debrief*, because debriefing was only required of in-prison gangs. it is against many people's principles to participate in the snitch system by which people throw others to the wolves - whether honestly or not - to get away themselves. do you hear any of that from the state's presentation of the case? no.

do you not feel that throwing another to the wolves to save your own skin is undignified?

the rest, i have offered extensive information you have obviously never bothered to look at. your blithe dismissal of what you don't like to look at does not make it untrue.

but, i admit you have defeated me. the jury and peers thing is too beneath your own intelligence for me to even bother. all game. a human life and it's all game to you.

goodbye. i have to go offline soon. i will be back this evening.

[KC_25]

118. Bill Handel an AM KFI640 radio talkshow host

was nominated for a nobel peace prize...Just the other day in fact...it is not that difficult to get nominated.. hell, I could probably donate a sum of money to a campaign and get a nomination..
sheesh

He was never asked to debrief? Thats odd, half of the CA law enforcement states that he has been asked to debrief and refuses to do so..sound like a repented man? not to me it doesn't

[nofurylike]

136. he was not asked to debrief. it's not even normal to unless one is in an

in-prison gang. period.

it is part of the cloud of mis/or disinformation all around him. that is WHY people have to research for themselves.

[KC_25]

138. the only misinformation is what you present

OK, so he was asked to "snitch" on those on the outside then. What is the difference? Oh, yeah sementics...

[MrSlayer]

132. So I'm too stupid to get it. I see.

Well you explain it then. I may be too "thick" to truly understand your mind boggling point of view but please indulge me. Do you think that every black defendant should get a majority black jury and a white defendant get a majority white jury or asian or muslim or christian or what? Please tell me what you mean. How does one determine who their peers are? I need your mastery and guidance, I'm way too unintelligent to comprehend the matter on my own.

[nofurylike]

145. interesting. what i posted was that it was beneath your intelligence. as

this post is too.
can you imagine my actually thinking YOU are as unable to answer that as you are acting?


gotta run. later.

[stepnw1f]

170. Who Are You To Claim He Is Unrepentant

I'm sure your Holy Father might object.

[Aretha]

171. He is unrepentant

He won't even admit that he murdered those people, in spite of overwhelming evidence that he did. How can someone be said to be repentant for something that they deny doing?

[stepnw1f]

172. Repentant to Who?

You? And please don't tell me he will be repentant by killing him.

[Aretha]

173. I'm sorry, but do you know the meaning of the word "repentant?"

Because your post makes no sense at all. Let me try and use smaller words. He has repeatedly been asked whether he is sorry for murdering Albert Owens, Tsai-Shen Yang, Yen-Yi Yang and Ye-Chin Lin. He has repeatedly stated that he is not sorry because he didn't do it.

Based on overwhelming evidence, a diverse jury unanimously found beyond a reasonable doubt that he did, in fact, murder those four people. Numerous courts of appeal have upheld that finding. Since 1979 no Governor of California, Republican or Democrat, has seen fit to pardon him or even grant clemency. Not one objective finder of fact who has ruled on this case believes him. He committed these crimes. He has not expressed remorse or even taken responsibility for doing so. He is not sorry.

He is, by definition, unrepentant.

[nadinbrzezinski]

283. You ARE AWARE the State of Texas

recently executed a man, and later the evidence that he was not guilty emerged? Gee we have convicted innocent people, and they happen to be ahem, for the most part, colored.

Now let me ask you something, will YOU attend the funerals of the police officers that MAY DIE? Let me correct that, WILL DIE in retaliation?

Since you are all for execution, please do tell the family... but tookie is dead.... I hope that makes it better for you.

Also, assuming he was actually found guilty... four people versus how many thousands he has touched in a possitive way? You know the ones that don't get involved in the gangs becuase of his work?

Grant clemency, and let him continue doing what he is doing.

Whatever it is, well it has saved more than just four lives. If he did the crime, when he dies he surely will burn in hell... for the moment he is doing far more good alive than dead...

[stepnw1f]

174. Oh Brother....

Well excuse me but that's a legal definition (Semantics - big word). And by your own admission, you wish to see that he will never be repentant to you, the victims loved ones, and to your God or even himself. Why?

[Aretha]

175. What's a legal definition?

What are you talking about? One is not repentant "to" somebody. One is either repentant or one isn't, period. Williams, by his own repeated public admissions, is not repentant. It's been over 26 years since he committed those murders. He's had plenty of time and opportunity to admit his guilt and express his repentance for his actions (which is, btw, one of the conditions for clemency). He's had nothing but time and opportunity and yet, he has never done so.

And what do you know of my views on God? I'm guessing absolutely nothing.

[stepnw1f]

180. So When He Fries You Can Rejoice

You claim he is unrepentant by legal definition. So what?

You are pro-death penalty and I am anti-death penalty. You believe people should be put to death for commiting murder. I don't. Simple. Leave it at that.

I just wonder what makes you claim such an authority on life and death. By all moral standards you nor anyone else has that moral authority. That's my premise for being against Capital Punishment.

[Aretha]

184. Actually, he won't fry

He'll receive a lethal injection. And you do not know my view on the death penalty. It's a little more nuanced than simply for or against. You're assuming again and letting your preconceptions show, just as you did with your assumption with respect to my religious beliefs.

And no, I never said anything about a legal definition. I was talking about an ordinary, English language definition. Williams has never expressed remorse for committing those murders. He had over a quarter century to do so.

[KC_25]

188. here look at this

http://www.johnandkenshow.com/blogimages/tookievictim3adweb. jpg

[KC_25]

177. I hope that he has repented to God..

But that is between him and Godm whichever one he subscribes to..
But on the same token, if he hasn't repented in 25 years of trying to get outof this, then he isnt going to repent to any of the people that you mentioned

[stepnw1f]

181. And So What Good is Putting Him To Death

Do you not terminate that possibility that he may repent to the victims loved ones. I'm not even sure he had a fair trial. Maybe he was innocent. Just what do you get from his death?

[KC_25]

187. 25 years...and he hasn't done it?

Yeah, hope springs eternal in the human heart, eh?

He feels, shows, and expresses no remorse for the crimes that he committed

[stepnw1f]

213. And So, What Good is His Death? (nt)

[KC_25]

228. it is his punishment...

The verdict that was handed down by a jury of 12 people, who felt that his crimes were heinous enough to warrant this punishment.

[stepnw1f]

251. So You Want Him to be Punished by Death

I think we are getting closer to the truth. I would understand the victim's loved one taking such a stance, but not somebody such as yourself. Sounds more like a blood lust, but hey... it's the law right?

[KC_25]

270. I want to be responsible for what he did

That was the verdict, he has shown no remorse, and he failed to show mercy to this young woman...
so what mercy, should he be shown?

http://www.johnandkenshow.com/blogimages/tookievictim3a. jpg

and see reply 158

[nadinbrzezinski]

286. You are aware of teh work he has done

over the last 25 years to prevent gang violence, or you choose to be ignorant of that?

[KC_25]

289. I am aware that he refuses to give

up to authorties of what he knows about the inner workings of the gang. Information that may potentially destroy a large part of that gang...because of honor? It seems to me if he were serious about the gang issue, that is the first thing that he would do.
Do you choose to ignore that?

[KC_25]

272. apparenttly

so did a panel of 12 racially mixed people, you know, the ones that listened to the information presented at his trial, both the prosecution and defense side of things, the ones that followed the law...but hey, what could they POSSIBLY know?

http://www.johnandkenshow.com/blogimages/tookievictim3a... jpg

[nadinbrzezinski]

284. One man today received a personal apology

from the California State DA in San Diego, after 21 years. They finally adminted they got the wromg man. What you think the system is infallible?

[Aretha]

182. You know, I might feel very different about this if

Williams had, at his trial or soon thereafter:

Admitted his guilt in the murders
Apologized to the families and friends of his victims
Attempted to make financial restitution to the victims' families
Immediately ceased his gang related activities
Given the authorities information on his gang's activities and practices that could have saved scores of lives
not filed appeals based on fraudulent premises such as mental illness

He did none of those things. Not one.

[nofurylike]

209. this is very interesting information. please read the whole piece, thanks.

Clemency bid to include claims of errors in trial
By John Simerman
Knight Ridder Newspapers

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/13339771.htm

-snip-

Who they heard it (supposed eye witness accounts) from: an alleged accomplice granted immunity, a jailhouse informant, an acquaintance with a checkered criminal past, a friend who later claimed police beat him into testifying (including another suspect in the murders, never investigated for them).

A police expert tied a shell casing from one crime scene to a slide-action 12-gauge shotgun owned by Stanley "Tookie" Williams, but there were no fingerprints, no pictures, no bystanders to finger him. And no DNA that could bolster or silence his claim of innocence.

-snip-

The appeals court rejected Williams' claim that he was incompetent to stand trial. Recently, he said he was involuntarily drugged in jail while awaiting trial - a claim that the state Supreme Court declined to entertain.

The trial record shows that Williams was barely responsive to questions from the judge.

-snip-

(emphasis mine)
***

[Aretha]

214. I read it

There's nothing there that changes my mind. Many defendants are unresponsive during trial. Do you really believe that someone drugged him? Honestly? You believe that?

[Wind Dancer]

227. Nothing will ever change your mind!

You believe the system is perfect and seem to take great delight in the execution of another human being. Have you ordered your t-shirt yet?

It's one thing to be pro-death penalty but quite another to celebrate it with others on a progressive message board.

[KC_25]

229. Who is celebrating?

I think the message that most are trying to get across is that this man is unrepentant, showed no mercy to his victims, and refuses to give any information to authorities about the gang that he started. If he did that, it would demonstrate, some sort of redeeming value. As it is, I fail to see how someone can think that his life is worth more than the lives of the 4 that he murdered..

[Wind Dancer]

238. Have you not been reading the threads?

I will admit it's hard for me to understand those who endorse the DP given the fact it's barbaric and no longer practiced in industrialized countries. For those who find it acceptable, why laugh and joke about an execution? It makes no sense to me, sorry!

One can be also be opposed to the DP without diminishing the lives of the victims. Execution is not the answer, the victims will not come back and if we continue as a country to ignore the reasons for criminal behavior, the cycle will never end.

The cycle will NEVER end.

[Aretha]

231. Is libel progressive now?

"You believe the system is perfect and seem to take great delight in the execution of another human being."

You have zero basis for saying this other than your own prejudices. Absolutely nothing that I have written justifies it. I think that you owe me an apology for this ugly bit of libel.

[noiretextatique]

299. if he wasn't guilty, as he claims

then why would he admit guilt? or apologize? or make restitution?
any comment on the anti-gang books he wrote for children, and why he chose to do that?

[noiretextatique]

296. ever consider he didn't murder those people?

he still claims he's innocent. the evidence is hardly "overwhelming"...most of it is circumstantial.

[MrSlayer]

256. What holy father?

My dad is a really, really good guy but holy goes a bit overboard. Anyway, he has no problem with my statement because it's true.

[the_real_38]

189. I second that ....

... I don't usually by the theory that the death penalty acts as a deterrent, but I think that in this case it will. He's guilty as sin, and people might get the message that you can write all of the children's books you want, but if you preface them with animalistic behavior that results in other people's deaths, you're going to get the juice.

[Parche]

253. murderer

It doesnt matter if he is black,white,red,green or blue
he murdered 4people, he didnt care about the victims then, why should we
care about him now?
This should have been done years ago

I respect Mike Farrell, but I have to disagree with him on this one

[MnFats]

3. one word: revenge.

deterrent? prevent possible future crimes? no...none of those apply. that leaves vengeance.
it will be interesting to see if the Terminator succumbs to testosterone or exhibits a mustard seed's worth of wisdom.

[nofurylike]

11. much closer, but "Capital punishment is a Black penalty." so there is

more to it than vengeance alone, unless we talk about whites' feelings of vengeance towards Blacks, generally. and THAT is interesting to look at, too.

why?

old-fashioned-lynch envy? i do feel that fury that they can't just lynch with (as much) impunity any more; or have slaves that 'know their place.'

thoughts?

i agree about the governor, too.

let us be sending him wisdom!

and emails to wake up to, please!


thank you

[KC_25]

108. Except for the little fact that in california

10 out of the last 12 executions were white guys..only one was black...
tookie will be #13, and will make the count 2/13 and the guy scheduled after tookie is another white guy..

How does all that figure into your Death is a Black penalty theory?

[EdwardM]

5. Revenge

That is all the death penalty is. I do not wish anybody dead. The death penalty is barbariac and horrible. I hate that my tax dollars are going to kill people. If someone raped a killed me, I would not wish the death penalty upon them. I would want the cycle of violence to end with me.


I really hope that Arnold makes the right decision. I think that anyone who would sign a death warrent for someone is a disgrace. That's one reason why I don't like Bush. How could this "compassionite conservative" could sign the death warrent of a woman who apologized for her crimes, and then mock her in an interview with Tucker Carlson is beyond me. Bush is truly evil. He is not Pro Life.

[nofurylike]

14. "I would want the cycle of violence to end with me." well said. me too.

and as for * and that obscene act: :puke:

thank you

[Erika]

8. I think it is hate, pure and simple and without a redemption value

Let's kill as he killed. It is truly sickening.

[nofurylike]

18. i agree it is hate. wow, the fierceness of the hate i've been hit by in

looking at this!

but a lot more frenzied hate than of some even proven mass murderers.

and not the *slightest* wonder if they could be wrong!

like a free *chance* to hate. hate-in-waiting.

thank you

[hfojvt]

76. Personally, I find a line like this

"Intrinsically racist White Americans lynch “strange fruit” like Stan Williams in American courts of law all the time."

to be pretty hateful, as well as ridiculously racist.

racism - 2) antagonism towards other races

Any sweeping derogatory statement towards Black Americans would be called what it is - racist hate speech.

[nofurylike]

86. it is a fact. hard to gag down, yes, but a fact. our racist history is

fact.

in seeing it, we can hope to fix it.

in denying it we are being it still.

[KC_25]

96. oh for the love of God

Has it ever just occurred to you that if Tookie hadnt killed four people he wouldnt be on death row?

[nofurylike]

139. oh yes! no one is ever on death row unless they killed someone. well,

except for over 100 people documented so far.

you do not know he did kill them. don't you think it should be known before killing someone?

KNOWN. not fed you by a proven-corrupt prosecutor.

for the love of....!!
haha

[KC_25]

141. Tookie isnt one of those 100 though

Known is not the legal standard, dear..
beyond a reasonable doubt, and 12 people found that he was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt..
then those 12 people were so sure of his guilt that they unamiously thought that he should be put to death.

[nofurylike]

149. that is why the words go: if Tookie hadn''t *been connvicted of* killing..

get the difference?

bye. back later.

[KC_25]

153. So I take it that you want him to go free?

I mean if he is not guilty, the standard shouldn't be clemency, it should be freedom right?
Reasonable doubt, he was tried and convicted,contrary to what you and SB would have us believe it wasnt an all white jury, and there was a black man on it.

The murder weapon was found at a couples house, a couple that he lived with..

One of the criminals who was given no immunity, testified at his own trial that tookie did the crime..

he admitted it to deputies and then retracted...

Reasonable doubt, legal standard, it was met, he is guilty, time to go

[KC_25]

152. check out these links

http://usa.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/23480

http://www.lacountyda.org/pdf/swilliams.pdf

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/12/01/EDG5TG04SF1.DTL

http://shystee.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/12/1/11214/9529

http://flapsblog.com/?p=1407

http://www.qando.net/details.aspx?Entry=3024


Read some of the blogs and the links at the blogs and the DA report...

This man is guilty, and he should die, I might consider letting him have clemency, IF he would say "Look,I did it, I am sorry, I wish that I hadn't"

But alas, it is nearly to late for that.

[hfojvt]

104. that line was talking about the present

not about our history.

And there is not that much racism in my history. My Swiss ancestors came to America in 1864, are they somehow part of this racism simply because of their white skin? My German ancestors came to the colonies in 1739 and had at least 3 descendants fighting for the North in the civil war, two of which died, one of them in Andersonville. So they are part of this racist past because of their white skin and in spite of the fact that they gave their last full measure to end slavery?

I do not think I am perpetuating racism by refusing to "see" that white people are evil because of the color of their skin. Quite the opposite.

[bluestateguy]

9. Fine. It will be #499 on my list of #500 things to do.

So maybe I'll think about doing it in about a year.

I have no desire to see him killed, but I won't lose any sleep over it either if that's what happens. It's just not a priority.

In case anybody hadn't noticed, there are innocent people being killed in a bullshit war right now, half a million displaced people from a hurricane while the government fumbles around, 45 million people without health insurance and a possible bird flu pandemic.

[sandnsea]

16. But it's all connected

It's about a moral decay that justifies the deaths of soldiers because they volunteered, that justifies the loss by those in the hurricane because they were leaches on society anyway, that justifies the uninsured for the same reason. There's always a good "moral" reason to let somebody's agony continue, to let people die. I personally think that as long as we justify one intentional execution, we'll allow ourselves to continue to justify them all. We never stop and collectively ask ourselves, why do we accept this as the only way.

[nofurylike]

19. yes, "it's all connected" yes. well said, thank you eom

[Sapphire Blue]

17. Someday, when you are in need of kindness, I hope that you will readily...

... receive it... that someone else won't hesitate to help, won't make excuses for not helping, or so easily say that they won't "lose any sleep over" not helping you in your hour of need.

And, yes, we've noticed those being killed in this bullshit war. Yes, we have noticed. Soldiers. Citizens. Babies, for God's sake. We have noticed.

[nofurylike]

23. yes, isn't it heartbreaking to hear someone be capable of saying that?

"won't lose sleep over."

remember when reagan died and people here were FREAKING out that even if he was one of the world's most vicious rulers, don't DARE speak so ugly of the dead?

but Mr Stanley Williams?

frenzied wrathful hatred.
huh?

thank you

[Sapphire Blue]

28. I'll never understand the lack of compassion on the part of some.

Another DUer (bluerthanblue) has a beautiful quote in her sig line...

"Nurturing is something very special, and vital for the survival of all life, and it doesn't end at age 18.- We should ALL nurture each other- when we do that- there WILL be peace."

I wish that we could all remember that... and live by that.

[KC_25]

39. Sorry...unmoved

the pictures of his victims are in my head, I can not find it in my heart to forgive him. I think that he deserves to die

[nofurylike]

52. that is beautiful. and it would make such a difference. but so few will

give any other the benefit of any human doubt, when we all live under doubt at some point or other.

that's where "turn the other cheek" is the beginning of social revolution, on top of being personal salvation.

[KC_25]

124. see post 114 eom

[Wind Dancer]

241. I'll never understand the lack of compassion, either.

These words seem to get lost these days - from your inspirational article, Sapphire Blue:

In the eyes of the criminal justice system, a redeemed criminal is simply another criminal. I recall my first visit to a federal prison back in seminary when starting a prison chaplain residency. The warden of the prison came to the orientation I shared with other interns. His message was clear to us: "I want you to remember that the prison system today is not about reforming criminals. We are here to punish them."

Redemption, in other words, has no place in our justice system. We do not offer a path for conversion. Once marked for condemnation, an offender's destiny is fixed.

Don't we want to offer our citizens more in a democracy?

http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=sojomail.display&i...

[Sapphire Blue]

248. Corrected link to this article by David Batstone

... posted on 'Sojourners' website...

Redemption on trial in California by David Batstone: http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=sojomail.display&issue=051207#3

(I was glad to share that article w/you, knowing that you would appreciate the inspiration in it.)

[Wind Dancer]

259. Thanks for fixing the link, Sapphire Blue!

Oops!

It's an excellent article by David Batsone, inspirational and thought provoking!

[KC_25]

273. He is just not another criminal

He murdered 4 people, and his bogus redemption is what alot of people take issue with, he is a con artist that continues his con game, it is really hard for me to feel forgiveness for this man. How much did his 332 children's books redemption do you think that this woman felt that he earned?

http://www.johnandkenshow.com/blogimages/tookievictim3a. jpg

[KC_25]

114. After I murder 4 innocent people..

Please feel free to not offer compassion, because what if I have done that...then well my fate was sealed by my own hands, was it not?

[SammyBlue]

203. George Bush has at a hand in the murders of thousands of innocent

people. . .why aren't we working to bring him up on capital charges?

[Aretha]

204. So? Why aren't you?

[KC_25]

223. I thought that we were?

I thought that DU was a place to meet and expose the lies? To help inform the public, to get those in power out and hold them accountable, no?

[noiretextatique]

300. good question

i might suspend my anti-death penalty stance for that mass murderer.

[nofurylike]

20. did you read the article? it speaks to what you replied. thank you. eom

[bluestateguy]

22. Yes, I read that very poorly written article

Which sounds like a high school composition written by a moderately intelligent teenager who knows little of the real world.

Then I saw that the author was a Green Party candidate for Lt. Gov. That was not surprising.

[nofurylike]

25. but how do you feel about the fact that it is accurate? eom

[nofurylike]

26. btw, it is very well written. i wonder if the directness makes you

uncomfortable.

[bluestateguy]

27. It was just a lot of ranting and raving

Kind of like a leftist Coulter column. Underneath a lot of the rhetoric, I'm sure she might have has some good arguments, but they got lost underneath her whiny tirade.

[Sapphire Blue]

29. More 'whining'...

Empirical evidence is everywhere, festering in the form of slums and tenements unfit for human habitation, schools – rat infested and infused with dirty toilets, nonexistent health care. Katrina, where Black babies floated in putrid waters, and thousands of people are still unaccounted for!

http://www.sfbayview.com/120705/strangefruit120705.shtml

Seems I heard the RW making similar comments about the New Orleans residents at the Katrina hearings earlier this week. Oh, they were 'whining' about racism, too.

(Edited to add: Lots of "whiny tirades" at those Katrina hearings... lots of ranting & raving, Would you also belittle them???)

[bluestateguy]

35. Now we're talking about the Katrina survivors?

Wasn't this thread about Tookie Williams' clemency appeal? I very seriously doubt that that topic will come up at the hearing. The people who testified at the hearings this week were not convicted, unrepentant murderers. They should not be lumped with this Tookie character.

[Sapphire Blue]

40. If you had read the article, you would have seen that Katrina survivors...

... were mentioned in it. My earlier post was an excerpt from the article. I thought that this post was about the article... which, btw, is very much about racism. And racism is racism, no matter who it is directed against. When one is treated in a racist manner, it doesn't matter what one's stature in life is. It hurts. It kills.

[nofurylike]

148. was leaving and have to stop and say that is an extremely powerful

statement, SB.

bye for now

[nofurylike]

151. *

:puke:

[KC_25]

193. you know what makes me want to puke...

http://www.johnandkenshow.com/blogimages/tookievictim3adweb. jpg

[nofurylike]

276. you care so much about them, don't you? your exploitation

of their images to stroke your own ego and need to win, is indecent.

i know that means nothing to you, or you wouldn't be doing it. but it is vitally important to say to you.

rest assured that in a world where the most callous and shallow invariably dominate, i am fully aware i am no match for you and your heartless gang.

[KC_25]

49. Um that article is far from accurate..

read this site
http://www.knowgangs.com/blog/tookie.htm

[Sapphire Blue]

45. Belittle the article, belittle the author. Do you trivialize racism???

Do you know the real world?

[KC_25]

48. read the website that I posted

http://www.knowgangs.com/blog/tookie.htm

and I would ask you if you know the real world

[KC_25]

50. do you trivialize murder?

I think that you do with your staunch defense of the Tookie monster

[wiley]

10. Nevermind

[Sapphire Blue]

13. "America, vicious, bloodthirsty and racist..." That says it all.

This entire article is well worth reading. Hope it opens some eyes.

Considering that most of DU is not like them, I hope Gov. Schwarzenegger is swamped with calls, faxes, and emails from DUers supporting clemency!!!

[Aretha]

24. I read the article

It's racist swill, meant to save an unrepentant mass murderer by a cheap and hamhanded appeal to white guilt and an attempt to make a hero and a victim out of a murdering con man who actually pretended to be mentally defective when it suited him to do so and continued his gang involvement for over a decade after the murders..

Stan Williams isn't going to die because "George Bush doesn't care about black people." Stan Williams is going to die because he murdered four people in cold blood and, in over a quarter century since committing the murders and destroying two families, he has never garnered the simple decency to admit his crimes and seek forgiveness from the families of his victims.

Question (again) for nofurylike:

Should Stan Williams go free? If not, why not?

[nofurylike]

31. white guilt is prodded by those thoughts because the guilt is a result of

that very history. the article is not "a cheap and hamhanded appeal to white guilt," it is an indictment of the actions and behaviors that cause that guilt, and the fact that they are happening again, now.

not because * doesn't care. because the privileged and powerful of this entire country do not care. well, hate, in fact.

after seven years in prison, he taught himself to read, then completely educated himself, extensively. do you know that?

do you know this?:

In August 2004, a committee of prison officials commended Tookie for his positive steps in the past 10 years. Yet “corrections” made on their website – mysteriously removed one day later – alleged that Tookie “firmly entrenched himself as the leader of the Crips at San Quentin, wielding power as his lieutenants and other minions were dispatched to carry out his objectives.” Daniel Vasquez, warden at San Quentin from 1983 to 1993, said those remarks were “like corrections trying to drum up business for death row.”

what do you think of that? does it contradict something you'd previously believed/been told by the prosecution?

it did for me.

answer, agaaaaaaiiiiin

Stan Williams should be granted clemency.
once he has been, besides his already having an agreement to work with the NAACP and young people on breaking a vicious cycle of violence, he ought someday to be able to receive a fair re-trial. that's what i feel ought to happen.

thank you

[Sapphire Blue]

32. It's not just "the privileged and powerful of this entire country"

... who do not care. That kind of attitude seems to have seeped into the hearts & souls of more than just "the privileged and powerful". As we've seen.

Fortunately, we are on a liberal website, where, the majority does care. Very much.

[KC_25]

34. I care more the victims than this murderous swine

He doesn't need a retrial, he is guilty. He is a con artist, murderer and a thug. He deserves his fate.

[nofurylike]

277. yes, it is true. i misstated. it is not just they who do not care. yes, it

really has seeped into the hearts and souls of so many more.

i mistakenly limited when i meant to implicate only in that reference, those who would have the power to do substantial material good, but do not care at all. or rather, care more about perpetuating broad nationwide, worldwide race/class inequality and strife.

the guilt is in all class layers, because white privilege seems so dull the consciousness of all classes of whites.

thank you for calling my attention to that inadequate attempt to say that, Sapphire Blue.


peace!

[Silverhair]

150. "Taught himself to read"??? He was NOT illeterate.

He wrote, in his very own hand, note planning mass murder (Blow up a buss with all the people on it.) and escape. How did he write those notes if he did not know how to read?

You Tookie Cookies get wilder all the time in your claims about this guy.

I substitute teach. Tuesday I was called in to the high school, so I asked each class if they knew who Tookie was. When no one knew I even gave hints. During the day, of 100 students, on ONE knew who he was. And she was one of those involved A+ kids that stays up on current events. However, once I explained that he was the founder of the Crips, there were some who claimed a Crips connection. Whether they were telling the truth or not, I do not know.

I have to go to high school again today. I will ask todays classes the same question. Most of the kids (But not all) will be different kids. I will post the results this afternoon.

Got to get ready for school now.

[Aretha]

167. Finally, you answer the question.

Stan Williams should be granted clemency.
once he has been, besides his already having an agreement to work with the NAACP and young people on breaking a vicious cycle of violence, he ought someday to be able to receive a fair re-trial. that's what i feel ought to happen.

So here's the answer. For nofurylike (and other Williams supporters, I suppose) this isn't, in spite of what they've claimed repeatedly, just about the death penalty and getting it switched to life without the possibility of parole. It's about taking the first step in trying to get this unrepentant mass murderer back on the street. The excuse they will use? That the first trial was unfair (in spite of the compelling ballistic evidence and overwhelming testimony that many people have linked to) because the first (mixed race) jury was insufficiently black and, therefore, racist. The original article in this thread is just a step in creating the groundwork for establishing that lie.

For everybody who asks why the death penalty is preferable to life without the possibility of parole, I give you nofurylike and others who, if Williams is granted clemency, will spend years making sure that life without the possibility of parole turns into freedom for this murderer. If nofurylike had it his/her way, Williams would stroll out of prison today, a free man.

[KC_25]

185. warning links are to graphic photos of the tookie monster's

victims

This is what he did, did he show mercy and compassion to them


http://www.johnandkenshow.com/blogimages/tookievictim3adweb. jpg

http://www.johnandkenshow.com/blogimages/tookievictim2adweb. jpg

http://www.johnandkenshow.com/blogimages/tookievictim1adweb. jpg

[Aretha]

190. Wow ... that really is graphic

I wonder how he sleeps at night.

[donheld]

85. Welcome to DU Ms Franklin

:hi:

[Aretha]

168. Thanks!

:)

[KC_25]

30. Because he killed 4 people in cold blood

for drug money...?

just a guess..

[nofurylike]

37. well, take it a step further, then. why didn't he receive a fair trial, or

the re-trial he was entitled to and proved a sufficient case for?

someone did what you said. why don't they care who enough to grant that re-trial?

thoughts?

[KC_25]

42. He did recieve a fair trial

You keep blathering on that he didn't, He is a con man with a public relations officer, his redemption is utterly ridiculous, IF his trial was so unfair, how did it stand up in every appeal that has been attempted since his verdict was rendered? Oh, wait..I know, the ENTIRE court system is rascist, and it is all a conspiracy to "get tookie". He had his trial, now it is time that he had his punishment.
You don't want him to die? Then put him a drug induced coma and keep him in a vegatative state, alive on life support infinetly. That is still more consideration then he gave his victims...and it would be poetic, because I am sure someone would mock the whoooooosss----hhuuuuuuuuuuhhh of the vent, much the same way that he mocked the gurgling sounds of Albert Owens dying breaths..

[Endangered Specie]

69. hmmm, not a bad idea...

though personally Id still prefer a firing squad or the gas chamber

[fortyfeetunder]

255. What do you think of what Owens widow says?

http://www.naacp.org/news/2005/2005-12-09.html

Wife of Robbery Victim Calls for Support of Stanley Tookie Williams Peace Initiatives

Linda Owens, the widow of Albert Owens, who was slain during a convenience store robbery, issued a statement today in support of Stanley Tookie Williams’ efforts to bring an end to gang violence and his call for peace between gangs.

In a statement sent to attorneys for Williams for public release, Ms. Owens said: "I, Linda Owens want to build upon Mr. Williams' peace initiative. I invite Mr. Williams to join me in sending a message to all communities that we should all unite in peace. This position of peace would honor my husband's memory and Mr. Williams work."

[Sapphire Blue]

257. "Bruce S. Gordon, NAACP President and CEO, said, "Linda Owens' statement..

... is a message of hope. I praise and thank Mrs. Owens for sharing her thoughts. We all can learn from her example." (http://eurweb.com/story.cfm?id=23852)

Yes, we can learn from her example!

[KC_25]

269. Linda Owens

was albert owens EX-WIFE, whom he was about ot battle for custody of his daughters, which was why he was working the nightshift clerk job... I am sorry, I can not put a lot of credence into her statements

[Peter Frank]

33. Why Does Anyone Want Anyone Killed???...

...bloodlust disguised as Justice? This question is uncomplicated for me.

You can't teach society the value of life by killing criminals; and you can't teach criminals anything by killing them.

[KC_25]

36. hmmm

"and you can't teach criminals anything by killing them"

Nope, but they will not kill anymore will they?

[Peter Frank]

41. Funny how you ignore the first part of the equation...

And for the second part -- they won't kill any more if locked up for life.

[KC_25]

44. They could kill other inmates...

Pfft, that is a better idea still..

drop on an island, make it the survival of the fittest, think of how tax money we would save...no electricity, no heat, no food...just their badassed selves on an island in the middle of the pacific..no guards, none of that..

thanks!

[KC_25]

47. Ohh I am sorry...

and leaving someone alive that killed at least four people shows society the value of life?
I think so, it shows that you value the life of the murderer more than the victim, but htat is just my take on it.

[Peter Frank]

53. Blah blah blah...

...the argument that advocates against the death don't consider victims is a sham.

The healthiest victims are the ones who have come to forgive.

[Sapphire Blue]

57. Victims’ Families Call for End to Executions

Victims’ Families Call for End to Executions

Statement of Murder Victims’ Families for Human Rights and The Journey of Hope... From Violence to Healing on the 1000th Execution

As our country approaches the 1000th execution since 1977, we think about the losses represented by that number. We think of the loss of the life of the murder victim, and the loss to that victim’s family and community. We are people who have experienced that loss directly. The question, “How would you feel if someone in your family were murdered?” is not a hypothetical question for us; it is the reality we must live with every day. But we do not believe that the death penalty will bring us closure, healing, or justice. Another killing does not bring back our family member and it does not make us feel safer. We would like to live in a society that demonstrates its concern for victims by devoting resources to preventing violence and to addressing the real needs of victims in the aftermath of violence.

We think, too, about all the families who have been left behind in the aftermath of 1000 executions: the families of the person who was executed. After 1000 executions, how many parents, siblings, children, and other relatives are left isolated in their grief and lacking the support offered to others who suffer the loss of a family member? It is time to consider the social costs of the death penalty: how many people are affected by a single execution? In particular, how many children?

As families of murder victims and families of people who have been executed, we stand together and declare that it is time to abolish the death penalty.

Murder Victims’ Families for Human Rights and the Journey of Hope…From Violence to Healing are two organizations whose membership includes survivors of homicide victims who are opposed to the death penalty.

Contact information:

Renny Cushing, Executive Director
Murder Victims’ Families for Human Rights
617 491 9600 (0) 617 930-5196 (c)
[email protected]
www.murdervictimsfamilies.org

Bill Pelke, President
Journey of Hope…From Violence to Healing
877-924-4483 (O) 305-775-5823 (C)
www.journeyofhope.org
[email protected]

http://www.1000executions.org/victims.html

[KC_25]

60. good for them

i guess they have trancended the earthly planes that I am still on...

Did you ever read that website I posted, or are just going to keep posting all your propaganda and hyperbole

[tammywammy]

63. But, you cannot include Albert Owens family in this

His step-mother is for the execution.

Dear Governor Schwarzenegger,

My name is Lora Owens. I am the stepmother of Albert Lewis Owens. My husband, Albert's father, has died so I also speak for him since we discussed this letter frequently over the years. I am writing you concerning clemency for Stanley "Tookie" Williams who murdered Albert in 1979 by shooting him twice in the back. Within seconds, though Albert pleaded for his life, Williams chose to become the judge, jury and executioner of Albert, then laughed as he lay dying. In 1981, Williams was tried, convicted and sentenced to death for the murders he committed in cold blood. Now the many, many years of appeals have also been denied and the facts remain steadfast and the verdict remains firm.

Now that the appeals have been denied, Williams has decided on a new tactic. A female friend has entered his life who happens to be a journalist who wants to write children's books against gangs. Since the defense of brain damage in his appeals did not gain him anything, Williams decided to become an articulate author denouncing gang activity. He doesn't assist the authorities in stopping gang activity by "debriefing" however, but concentrates on teaching primary school age children the "walk and talk" of gang life. This he claims will deter them from joining a gang.

The Nobel Peace Prize nominations, from the first to the last, have been made by activists who see an opportunity to further their personal cause.The first was quoted to have made the nomination to "raise the awareness of the death penalty to a higher degree". Totally nothing to do with Williams and whether he deserved the recognition but for a political agenda.

This has been true of each nomination since.

They have quoted that it doesn't matter what he has done in the past but what he is doing now.

I contend that he is not doing anything now to warrant any type of award and it definitely does matter what he has done in the past. It would matter to anyone whose child is dying in a pool of blood because Williams had the loaded gun and chose to shoot- not in self defense-but shot innocent, unarmed victims simply bcause he could.

We must care what happens to each other whether it affects us personally or not lest we become as callous, insensitive and cold hearted as Williams.

The citizens award from the President of the United States was bought for a few dollars but because he received it...people think the President is behind his clemency and think his "works" are worthwhile as the Williams legal counsel asserts.

The movie "Redemption" is an atrosity. To be redeemed one must accept responsibility for the deeds and not claim to be redeemed to get out of the punishment set forth. Williams has declared his own style of redemption for his own gain.

It's sad that many people have seen the movie and think Williams has changed. That it was mistakes in his youth that put him on death row. Not the murders he was convicted of but the mistakes he eludes to in the movie. I've been berated because the Owens family is shown to throw blood on Barbara Becnel and people are led to believe that has actually happened.

They have forgotten that we are the victims not the criminal.

The years since 1979 have been very difficult for the Owens family. Albert's daughters did not have a good childhood because their father was not there to love and protect them from harm. The health of Albert's father steadily declined and he couldn't get any peace or closure over Albert's murder because justice had not been completed. We did think with Williams being confined to death row would do some good but not when he has his own web page, media directors and movies coming out. It continually kept the pain and anguish fresh and each time something new would appear in the press...it was as though the years had not passed and the pain was the same gutwrenching as in the beginning.I sincerely implore you not to give clemency to Stanley "Tookie" Williams. He is not a model citizen for the blacks to pattern after. He is a murderer and has caused the Owens family anguish for the last 26 years.

His just punishment, his execution, could provide us some closure and peace. Finally, Albert could rest knowing that justice had finally been completed.

With Kind Regards,
Lora Owens

http://www.knowgangs.com/blog/tookie2.htm

[KC_25]

58. I am sure that they maybe they would

forgive, if they were fucking alive....

[Esra Star]

54. If you search deep enough, all you will see is revenge. eom

[Peter Frank]

55. God teaches forgiveness above all...

Many of His followers seem to have missed this...

[KC_25]

62. God forgives

If tookie is redeemed, and he is forgiven by god, then arent we doing him a favor since he will be going to a better place? Seems that he should be looking forward to living up there in heaven eh?

[michreject]

186. No, God taught vengeance.

Jesus taught mercy.

[nofurylike]

198. i'm wondering, didn't 'he' teach that vengeance is 'his' alone? eom

[michreject]

205. Then leave vengeance to God

And justice to the state. This pending execution is not about vengeance, but about justice. Nothing more, nothing less.

[KC_25]

56. Revenge is better

than the drug money he murdered for..

[Starbucks Anarchist]

59. Tookie Williams isn't being executed because he's black.

He's being executed because he killed four people in cold blood. To suggest he's being targeted for his ethnicity is an insult to the many innocent, nonviolent black people who have felt real racism, whether via the justice system or society at large.

Stop making Tookie into some sort of saint.

[Peter Frank]

61. It's not about Williams...

...It's about the Death Penalty.

[KC_25]

64. Oh really?

I am sorry, I thought the OP titled it "Why do they want Tookie executed"

[Peter Frank]

73. I defend my own statements...

Thoughts???

[Starbucks Anarchist]

68. The article mentions the treatment of black people in America.

In fact, it goes off on a tangent, trying to connect Williams' situation with Hurricane Katrina. It doesn't just cover the death penalty.

[Endangered Specie]

70. yup, and that is what we call

a Red Herring.

[Sapphire Blue]

75. Racism in America is the direct connection.

[KC_25]

77. Where were you when they executed this guy?

http://www.corr.ca.gov/CommunicationsOffice/CapitalPunishment/executed_inmates/donald_beardslee.asp

hmmm?

[KC_25]

81. or for that matter

any of the names on this list...

http://www.corr.ca.gov/CommunicationsOffice/CapitalPunishment/inmates_executed.asp

12 people have been executed since the DP reinstated...in CA

10 white, 1 black, 1 listed as other (looks asian)

where was your cries for racial inequality, or the cruelty of the death penalty then..

Line up Scott Peterson, give charlie manson some time in the general population..

check out this list

http://www.corr.ca.gov/CommunicationsOffice/CapitalPunishment/PDF/Summary.pdf

[michreject]

194. On parole for murder in Mo.

Why in the fuck was he ever released from prison, to kill again?

There are some here that would like to see Williams released from prison, thinking he is a reformed scumbag. He would kill again in a New York minute if he had the chance.

Don't give him that chance.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

80. No amount of racism excuses Tookie's actions.

Millions of people in this country have experienced racism and have still managed to lead peaceful lives.

[Sapphire Blue]

84. No amount of racism excuses ANYONE'S actions.

Yet so many are motivated by racism, feel that their actions are justified by their racist beliefs.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

88. And what does that have to do with Tookie's guilt?

[Sapphire Blue]

94. It has EVERYTHING to do with his presumed "guilt".

[KC_25]

100. it is not presumed anymore

he was found guilty..convicted...and sentenced to death...

He has tried every angle that there is to include trying to pretend mental retardation to get out of his sentence, and after each angle fails for him, he tries another... his latest attempts are the "rascist jury" and the "redemption". I am fairly sure that these attempts will fail too..

[Sapphire Blue]

67. If it's not about him being black, why isn't every convicted murderer...

... on death row, scheduled for execution? Why are there a higher percentage of blacks on death row?

<Edited to add: And why aren't all those calling for Stan's death also calling for the deaths of every convicted murderer... Charles Manson, for instance?>

Do your consider yourself to be an expert on what is insulting to someone in whose shoes you have never walked?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

71. I'm not denying a disparity in the application of the death penalty.

I'm specifically talking about Tookie's case. Any amount of legal racism, as bad as it is, should not excuse Tookie's actions.

And as far as insulting someone like Tookie, I could care less. There are far greater people in this world I'm wary of insulting than a cold-blooded killer.

[Sapphire Blue]

78. You have shown that you don't care.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

79. About who? Tookie?

You're right, I don't care about him. He killed four innocent people and started one of the most dangerous street gangs in history. Why should I care about him?

The victims and their families are the ones I care about. Tookie gets no sympathy.

[Sapphire Blue]

87. Why aren't you calling for the deaths of every convicted murderer?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

90. I think guilty murderers should be executed.

Happy?

[Sapphire Blue]

93. Why not all CONVICTED murderers?

No, not happy. Your thinking saddens me. Blood lust must be a horrible thing to feel. I am happy that I don't share those feelings.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

99. Because not all convicted murderers are guilty, but Tookie is.

And my "blood lust" is nowhere near that of Tookie's considering he killed four people.

[Sapphire Blue]

Starbucks Anarchist... judge, jury & executioner.

Might you also be God?

(edited to add: I asked the question about God because, other than Stan, God would be the only one who knows the truth as to the murders of which he was convicted... and you imply that you know.)

[KC_25]

105. Nope...

What you seem to miss that there WAS a JUDGE and A JURY that FOUND the tookie monster guilty...
Starbucks is merely echoing that sentiment..
Nice try though!

[Starbucks Anarchist]

110. LMAO, "Tookie Monster."

Very clever, KC_25. :hi:

[Silverhair]

197. Self Delete - Wrong sub-thread

[Starbucks Anarchist]

107. I'm just a person who wants justice done.

You can call that God, Jesus, Yawheh, Allah, Krishna or whatever the hell you want.

[Sapphire Blue]

113. Truth is needed for justice to prevail.

Do you want truth or do you want blood lust?

Seems that you believe that taking someone's life is justice. We disagree.

[KC_25]

116. The TRUTH is out there SB

You are simply denying it.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

119. And the truth is that Tookie is guilty.

Therefore, justice will be served.

[Sapphire Blue]

120. Your "truth". Your "justice".

Sad.

I wish you mercy.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

121. And what is your truth and your justice?

I don't need your mercy. Why don't you wish Tookie's victims mercy?

[Sapphire Blue]

125. You may not think that you need it, yet I offer it

... along w/my thanks...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5535280&mesg_id=5538598

Goodnight.

[Sapphire Blue]

127. dupe - delete

[KC_25]

122. I have to know..

What if he were convicted by an all black jury? would you still feel this way?
This isnt about the death penalty for you, it is about the tookie monster, what if tookie were a white man convicted and sentenced by an all black jury, would you still have this sentiment? You fail to look at anything that is not the propaganda that you try and spoonfeed us here...
You WANT to believe that he is innocent, so you do, My daughters want to believe in Santa, so they do, Doesn't make him anymore real...does it.

[Sapphire Blue]

97. And why aren't all CONVICTED murderers on death row?

[KC_25]

102. Some were, to include Charles Manson

but they had their sentences commuted to life..
or they admitted their guilt, demonstrated at least a semblance of contrition and took a plea bargain to avoid the DP... Tookie has failed to demonstrate one IOTA of remorse.

[KC_25]

92. If they are sentenced to death

and ahve exhausted their appeals, then right here, right now, I call for their execution as well

this guy is next
http://www.corr.ca.gov/CommunicationsOffice/CapitalPunishment/PDF/ClarenceAllen.pdf

are you going to have a countdown for him as well?

where were you when these 12 were executed?


ATTENTION PARENTS:
These crime summary pages contain graphic descriptions of one or more murders and may not be suitable for all ages.

California Executions Since 1978

Name Date Received Date Executed Time on Death Row
Robert Alton Harris 3/14/1979 4/21/1992 13 years, 1 month
David Edwin Mason 1/27/1984 8/24/1993 9 years, 7 months
William George Bonin 3/22/1982 2/23/1996 13 years, 1 month
Keith Daniel Williams 4/13/1979 5/3/1996 17 years
Thomas M. Thompson 8/23/1984 7/14/1998 14 years, 1 month
Kelvin Malone 6/22/1981 1/13/1999 (Missouri) 15 years, 6 months
Jaturun Siripongs 5/2/1983 2/9/1999 15 years, 9 months
Manuel Babbitt 7/15/1982 5/4/1999 16 years, 10 months
Darrell Keith Rich 1/23/1981 3/15/2000 19 years, 1 month
Robert Lee Massie 5/28/1979 3/27/2001 21 years, 10 months
Stephen Wayne Anderson 7/30/1981 1/29/2002 20 years, 6 months
Donald Beardslee 3/14/1984 1/19/2005 20 years, 10 months

10 white guys, 1 black guy, and 1 other...?

[KC_25]

83. You are right..

I do not care about Tookie monster Williams, and I doubt that I will show much care or remorse when Scott Peterson gets the needle...

[Endangered Specie]

72. Executions are generally reserved for

the worst of the worst of murders (ie 1st degree, coldbloodedness, or multiple murders, that sort of thing).

[Peter Frank]

101. You gave yourself away by saying "generally"...

ipso facto -- sometimes executions are reserved for other reasons.

I'm not saying that Williams is not a first degree murderer. I am saying that the standard by which people are killed by the state is "generally" subjective.

[KC_25]

103. Christ..

10 out of the last 12 people that were executed in CA were white..

[Peter Frank]

112. What's your point?

What percentage of Americans were executed world-wide last year?

[KC_25]

117. Well seeing how this thread is about the

the racial inequities of the California Justice System, how is that germaine to the conversation at hand.


but to humor you

follow this link
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cp.htm

[KC_25]

106. Just so you know...

The next guy scheduled to die in Cali is a white guy..
the last guy to die was a white guy

10 of the last 12 that died were white guys..
1 asian
1 black

so are you absolutely sure it is about him being black?

[Endangered Specie]

66. If I had a nickel for everytime you posted bullshit

Id be wealthy enough to run for President :eyes:

[Thtwudbeme]

135. So people that have other views are just

bullshitters.

uh huh

Try breathing through your nose for a change.

[KC_25]

140. While I can not speak for the other guy

Not everyone that has different views are BSers, however, when one posts the same information over and over again, and all but ignores any information that is contrary to what they want to believe, what would you call them?

**BTW, if I have to eat crow about the shooting, I will, but it is still a wait and see**

[Thtwudbeme]

143. OK, I am all ears

Tell me why I should support the DP in this, or any other case in the past couple of years. I am asking you to stick to that timeline because I am old and will remember those better.

To let you know, I am defending a paper this morning at the college--so, if I don't get back to your posts immediately--I will when I get back.

Back up your views...let's see what you have to offer.

[KC_25]

158. Lets stick to this case shall we..., maybe even one of the new ones..

First of all if you oppose capital punishment, then this is an exercise in futility, however, if you are willing to consider it on a case by case basis for particularly heinous crimes then it may be a go.

1. This clemency petition states that Mr. Stanley "tookie" Williams has been redeemed, and/or atoned for his crimes because he wrote children's' books, as well as works with current troubled youth.
-First of all, if Mr. Williams were an innocent man, then what does he have to atone for? What redemption is gained without first admitting guilt. No, Mr. Williams to this day denies that he committed this crime. He expresses no remorse, or apology.
-His work to "save kids" is laudable, however, if he were truly trying to prevent gang activity, he would have named names and given the lowdown as to what he knows, even if this information is somewhat outdated now, it could open new leads, and actually help bring the gang down, not just keep one or two kids from entering it.

2. Mr Williams claims that the prosecutor was bigoted..
- Well, you know what? He may well have been. But what does that add to the case, nothing, ANY prosecuting attorney will exclude, or attempt to exclude ANY juror that he feels may have to much sympathy with the defendant. If he didn't do that, then he wouldn't be doing his job would he.
- Mr Williams, has further stated that he was convicted and sentenced by an all white jury. Not TRUE at all. Even before the defense knew that the death certificate of one of the jurors identified him as black, that there was a filipino and hispanic woman on the jury. So they outright lied? Why would they do that? to garner public support and create a rallying call, regardless of how false it is. But if he is truly innocent, shouldn't there be more to go by than a false rallying call?
-He cries racism, but what is it, but racism to state that a jury made of multi racial backgrounds could not give Mr Williams a fair trial?

3. The tookie cookies, state that the evidence used to convict Mr. Williams was all circumstancial..
-Most evidence (it is not all CSI..esp back in the early 80s) in most cases is circumstancial..(Scott Peterson, anyone), but it does not make him any less guilty. The murder weapon that was used, was bought and paid for in his name. He states that the weapon was found under another couples bed...what he leaves out was that he lived with that couple..(minor detail, right)...


4. The tookie cookies state the defense based its case on the testimony of one individual
-That is incorrect, and you can see it in the court transcripts, that there were many who testified against Mr. Williams, the prosecution also had a handwriting analysis done of the note that Mr. Williams wrote, and he verified that he indeed write...


5. Mr Williams conviction and sentence has stood up to every legal challenge that they have thrown at it. In the 9th Circuit Court, of all places...Every time an appeal was defeated he adopted a new camouflage, IAC, failed... mental incapacity failed,...esculpatory evidence denied entry..failed
and the latest...biased jury..failed. His ever changing tiger stripes only further leads me to believe in his guilt, and highlights his interest in merely saving himself...


6 Which leads me to this...His sudden turnaround, new found redemption..blah blah..is only the latest in his attempts to get away with the crime. It is nothing more than a publicity stunt, trying to draw attention to his "cause" which, unfortunately has paid off for him...as I said earlier, if he was truly repentant, he would turn over the names of gang members that he knows and work on destroying the gang itself. Which he doesn't.

7. He claims this adds to his character, it shows me that he is simply a character actor. Mr williams is not the victim in this case, there are 4 innocent people, one family almost wiped out save a brother, and a father who was working another job as a clerk so that he could afford to get custody of his daughters.

8. Mr. Williams should no more be given clemency than should Scott Peterson, another man convicted of murder on highly circumstantial evidence. But, I doubt that we will see the public uproar to save ole Scott, much like we didn't see it save Mr. Beardslee.

9. If Mr. Williams, would at the very least admit the crimes, and apologize for them, then I may be more inclined to allow clemency, and for his testimony to children to be weighed as something useful in their lives, as it stands, it only goes to show that you can in fact, get away with murder.

10. It has been stated that executing Mr Williams will not bring the victims back, no it won't. It will do nothing more than carry out the sentence that a 12 person jury unanimously decided was appropriate punishment for the crime that they unanimously convicted him of. He has had due process, and the conviction, and sentence has stuck. His guilt to my satisfaction, has been established more than beyond a reasonable doubt.

Is execution vengeance? possibly, I have stated this before. But what is life without parole, if not vengeance? What is a punishment for a crime if it is inflicting of loss upon the murderer. He should lose the same thing that he has taken from 4 innocents.

If he has truly repented, then when he dies, he goes to whatever God he subscribes to and will be judged by him, either forgiven or damned...if he has repented, then forgiveness is his and he has nothing to fear.


truncated for time

id write more, but have to go..

[nofurylike]

280. yes. thank you, Thtwudbeme! eom

[cornermouse]

98. They want him dead because they are stuck in the Old Testament

and its "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" beliefs. They don't really believe in the New Testament and redemption.

[Silverhair]

155. New Testament authorizes the DP also. Passage is in Romans. NT

[cornermouse]

254. I stand by what I said.

You don't believe in redemption.

You only believe in punishment; probably because believing in redemption and forgiveness requires more work from you. You and the world are fortunate God doesn't think like that.

[Silverhair]

260. I do believe in redemption.

I was correcting your scholarship regarding the Bible. The state is given capital punishment authority, to be used wisely.

Redemption is a religious concept. If he has sought forgiveness from God then that is between God and Williams. I do not want our courts attempting to rule using religion as a guidline. Separation of church & state is an important concept.

Everything that I have been able to find regarding his earthly redemption appears phony. So on this earth I would deny clemency. Eternal pardon is not mine to judge.

[cornermouse]

267. I'm sorry, but I don't need your help.

Seeing the error of your ways and trying to change what you did or "redemption" is not just a religious concept. It is a life concept and, really based on what you wrote, you're limiting yourself to just as narrow a point of view as any of the religious rightwingers who are currently trying to bring down the wall between church and state.

[Silverhair]

290. You ignored my last paragraph.

I shall repeat. All evidence that I have found about his "redemption" is that it is phony. Not true contrition, but an act to convince gullible people to help him avoid his fate.

[Rhiannon12866]

131. I received an e-mail, just today, about him, and his was a story on CNN.

I don't know why I'm hesitating in responding to it, since I'm opposed to the death penalty, but I guess I needed to know all the facts about his case. And I'll reply to my e-mail, directly, supporting his cause, and yours. So thank you.

Rhiannon:-)

[nofurylike]

154. thank YOU, Rhiannon12866! eom

[Fescue4u]

142. Why do Tookie Loyalist love him so much ?

Tookie is more than just "strange fruit". He is a vicious killer.

I cant understand why some people idolize him.

[Silverhair]

146. MSNBC online poll: Clemency No 65% Yes 35% 24676 responses NT

[Fescue4u]

147. Why did "tookie" execute 4 innocent people ??

A: Because he is an evil bastard.

[Name removed]

156. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nofurylike]

160. "People... well represented at trial do not get the death penalty."

"People who are well represented at trial do not get the death penalty. . . . I have yet to see a death case among the dozens coming to the Supreme Court on eve-of-execution stay applications in which the defendant was well represented at trial."

- U. S. Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg (Associated Press, April 10, 2001)

[KC_25]

162. Scott Peterson

wasnt well represented ...

Holy shit...he got the deatht penalty..

[sproutster]

164. Wasn't that a movie of the week? Made me feel GOOD.

I love not getting the death penalty for not killing people.

[KC_25]

165. wtf are you mumbling about?

[sproutster]

166. Actually I was wondering the same...

There are tons of men who have killed their wives in LWOP. Heck, there are some serial killers on LWOP. :D Let's here it for justice and fairness!!

[KC_25]

176. Different states..different laws

Maybe they confessed their guilt and did a plea bargain, maybe the jury was hung on the issue of the death penalty...

each set of 12 different people will get you different results

[sproutster]

183. So... There is no disparity in sentences? We are cool to kill in State A

But in State B you get LWOP, and according to statistics it's safer to live in State B. Interesting that.

You can keep your vengence - It's not mine to have. I believe in humankind and believe that there is an enlightenment to be found and cherished the more we strive for peacemaking.

[KC_25]

191. so you can forgive this....

http://www.johnandkenshow.com/blogimages/tookievictim3adweb. jpg

You are a far better human being than I am, because it boils my blood.

[sproutster]

195. Would you like me to put up a comparable link...

for someone who was sentenced to LWOP? Is your blood boiled? Why are the places without DP safer to live?

Just askin'

[KC_25]

199. See, here is the deal

and this is just my opinion...

The laws of the state that the crime was committed in have to be followed..all the states that I have lived in have had the death penalty..

The death penalty is a punishment. Period. It is 12 people saying that a person deserves to die for the crime that they were convicted of... You dislike the Death Penalty, convince the lawmakers to change it, convince the supreme court that it is cruel..whatever..

However, to try and convince me that this man, esp, doesnt deserve death for these crimes, well you are wasting your time.
Will, I feel safer..better...justified...whatever after he gets the KCL bolus? I doubt it. I will however, have the satisfaction of knowing the the law was followed and a fitting punishment for this criminal was delivered.

As to your pitch about how it isn't fair that other murderers get life without parole, well, guess what life just isnt fair, is it? Is it fair that these people were in tookies way when he wanted drug money? The way I figure, if you commit a heinous crime such as these, and try to get off instead of take a plea...it is at best a crap shoot. IF he had plead guilty, he wouldnt be facing execution would he...then again, if he hadn't murdered 4 people he wouldnt be facing it either, huh?

[sproutster]

201. If he took a plea

Would we be having this debate? No, I don't believe so. Justice would still be served, and he would live.

How is that justice?

I realize I will never be able to change your mind on this particular individual - perhaps not the law either, but I do want to be heard by you. Maybe someday you will change your mind too. :) It can happen.

Do you realize I started this debate pro-DP? Not this thread, but this debate. I'm now anti-DP. I make these arguments for this particular individual and I realize it's so much bigger then that. I was pro-DP when I lived in an anti-DP state, interestingly enough. Now I'm anti-DP in a DP state now.

[KC_25]

207. That is the beauty of America (for the time anyways)

Or the ugliness, depending on your view, to debate the differences. I appreciate your pov, at least you arent throwing the "he is the victim here" sentiment at me, which makes me respect your opinion a bit more than others here.
I am not so callous to think that everyone should get death for crimes that they commit, or that no one could really be against the death penalty on moral grounds alone. There have be DP cases, that I have called and told the governor to commute, and there have been cases (like this one) where I have told the governor to let him die.
This man has shown no remorse whatsoever for the crimes that he has committed, instead he tries every ploy, legal or public, to get out of facing the music and accepting responsibilty.
I think that his jailhouse conversion is a ruse, because if it werent, why wouldnt he give all the information that he has to police to help them destroy the gang? Honor, he claims, what is more honorable protecting other thugs and murderers, or actually doing something to protect the kids he says he is trying to help. I think his redemption is really a last ditch "save my ass" attempt, no more no less.

No, failing some breakthrough DNA that suddenly proves he is innocent, someone else confessing the crime with details that are unknown to the public, or hell, maybe even him saying that he did it and that he would fully cooperate with authorties with names and etc information about the crips...I am against clemency for this man, and the people that spew the BS that he is "just a victim of circumstance" or "racism" only make me angrier, is that a correct or right argument or statement, I don't know, and I am not infalible, but currently that is my position.

[sproutster]

211. In this case I'm preceeding with the notion he is guilty

I just think he is worth more alive then dead. His death will fuel anger and it will deter nothing.

I'm not a great romantic but in thinking about this, there has been some nobel work from prison inmates. I believe if they are trying to "play the system" it doesn't really matter - What matters is the work product. I would like to be a person who believes in redemption and now stand on the side that will allow that to happen if it will. There is no danger to society if they are LWOP.

[nofurylike]

245. most excellent points, one after another, sproutster! enlightening!

and inspirational!


thank you!

[fortyfeetunder]

258. We have this guy up here in Seattle

that took out the lives of over 40 young women over the last 20 yrs. (Admitting that he "killed so many women I have a hard time keeping them straight,") (Google -- Green River Killer) The things he did to them were heinous..like having sex with the corpses before he buried them..Skeletal remains of his victims are still being found today.

You think he should be strapped and get the KCl juice too?

[nofurylike]

244. he has never gone

"to the Supreme Court on eve-of-execution stay applications..."

we'll see if he does have to. then we'll talk about him, okay?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

161. Because killing people is a tradiional American value.

Especially non-white people.

[nofurylike]

240. yes. it is. thank you for saying it so bluntly,Tierra_y_Libertad.

it is incredibly devastating to face that being true.

and if we don't, we'll never stop and repair that.


peace and solidarity...

[sproutster]

163. My question or thought - There are others with LWOP ...

Multiple murders, LWOP. Are you threatened? Should we band together and protest their life? Are we unsafe? ...

What the F*CK is the problem?? The people mentioned above have done nothing to further peace - YET some people here are frothing at the mouth to kill this mofo.

He deserves clemency (LWOP). His death will just make you feel better. The only one who will truly judge him is not posting on boards, and I feel in my soul that one will judge us.

If he is not killed by the state - What will change in your lives?

Will this magically stop all gang violence?

Will this deter gang members? Oh wait, how many have died this year alone? Death as a deterrance - HA!

This is a fuzzy feel good killing. There is no benefit to it, it is sensless.

[KC_25]

179. again...different states, different laws

different groups of 12 people..different circumstances, and maybe they actually admitted guilt and asked for mercy instead of just expecting mercy that they denied their victims...

But hey, I say...give him clemency, the exact same amount that he gave his victims

[Clara T]

169. Important State Rituals of complete power and control

Be it over life and death from cradle to grave be ye black or white. of course it's easier to justify and terrorize if you are "to be Feared" black (or the "always Angry Arab") but the State doesn't care so much. You'll be offed in numerous ways if you don't capitulate and assimilate.

There is a problem with the savages and from our Heart of Darkness we must assert our ivory primacy.

[nofurylike]

279. excekllent points, ClaraT! thank you! eom

[Balbus]

196. You ought to start a thread with this poll:

Should Stanley Williams be A: Executed or B: Life without parole, I think you'd be pleasantly surprised in the results.

But you're threads are coming across as should Stanley Williams be A: Executed or B: set free tomorrow, in which you're probably going to get disappointing results.

Just my opinion. I don't want to see him dead, any more than most people on this board. But I think life without parole is appropriate in this case.

[Aretha]

202. And there, you disagree with the OP

Who has expressed a desire to work to get Williams released ... and since Williams and his supporters would continue to work to get him released (which no reasonable person would believe they wouldn't, should the death penalty be commuted to life), there is one and only one way to be sure that he doesn't walk free again ... and perhaps visit some of the jurors whose lives he threatened at his trial.

[Balbus]

215. I agree that if he were ever to get out of jail...

...it could lead to tragic events. But it would also be a tragedy if he were put to death and it was discovered 2 years from now that he was innocent of the crimes he was convicted of and put to death for.

[Aretha]

219. Absolutely

I believe that because the death penalty is irreversible, it should only be applied when there is no doubt as to guilt. After taking a look at the evidence in this case, I don't think that there is any doubt.

[Balbus]

298. But people thought there was no doubt about Ruben Cantu's guilt, also.

And that turned out to be a horrible mistake.

[nofurylike]

285. not.

[Silverhair]

200. What my High School Classes say:

I have to substitute teach today, and it is lunch hour. I live one mile from the school so I swing home for lunch.

I have asked each class this morning if anybody knew who Tookie Williams was. Each class, so far, has been working in small groups of about 6 students, so I have asked each group individually so that individual students would feel freer to answer. My two afternoon classes will not be in small groups so I will have to ask the class at once.

So far, of 75 kids, 6 knew who he was. However, he was on the news last night. Only two had known who he was before the news. One knew quite a bit about him. Of those who knew who he was, I asked if they thought he should be executed. NONE VOTED TO SPARE HIM. That's right - None.

I was very careful to keep my questions neutral and my own view out of it.

Let's see what happens this afternoon.

[nofurylike]

221. i tremble to think that does not make you deeply sad. i can understand

the students feeling as they do, if teachers do not think that is a problem, even revel in those attitudes on forgiveness and mercy.

[KC_25]

225. I think that it is sad that you

defend the man so vehemently that did this..
http://www.johnandkenshow.com/blogimages/tookievictim3adweb.j pg

Honestly, I have to ask, what makes his life more valuable than hers? Or the 3 others that he murdered in cold blood and has shown no repentence for..

I say show him the exact same amount of mery that he gave the girl in the above picture...

[Clara T]

234. No surprise there

I'd be more surprised to learn of high school AND college students who do have knowledge and understanding of the worlds events. But of course the manufactured reality from the television monitor is of much greater import to the vast majority of Americans be they teens or elders. And so we are left to ask ultimately wothless compartmentalized questions as we flounder for answers to each (in the singular sense) act of violence. So we are left to examine the murderer "Tookie" or "The War in Iraq" or the inexplicable (and most recent in a long line) school shooting in suburbia. Looking at the totality of the violence and how it is inherent in the system is simply outside the range of discussion.

And so the teachers who ignore that system are left to ask all the wrong questions and the students who are conditioned within that system respond with all the wrong answers.

Meet the New War. Same as the Old War.


Keepers at the Gate

He Who Controls Television Controls the Masses

By Manuel Valenzuela

<snip>

Television has become, quite simply, the greatest tool of mass manipulation and thought control civilization has ever seen, an incarnation of the myriad of myths, fables, fictions, story telling, theologies and all other forms of ‘bread and circus’ history’s elite have concocted from which to retain power and control the lower echelons of man’s corrosive pyramid of hierarchy. In the television the elite have found the greatest weapon of mass control, seemingly able to dictate culture, politics, events, thought and destiny from the moment of birth to the time of death. It can even be said that it is they who can determine reality in twenty-first century America, magically making history disappear, altering the past, changing the present and molding the future. Reality is what they want it to be, shifting culture to their dictates, conditioning minds to fit their goals, pushing society in the direction that most benefits them and erasing from memory any manifestation that does not correspond to the reality they wish to create.

<snip>

The Keepers at the Gate are the creators of reality, of news and opinion, those that filter and whitewash and erase from memory, those whose job it is to distract and sensationalize and manage culture. It is they who possess the responsibility of altering mass thought and opinion in favor of the Establishment, pushing the goals of the few into the homes of the many. A nation that has been weaned away from the liberating mechanisms of knowledge and reason and free thinking must depend on the opinions it hears and the images it sees to create its own reality. Pushed away from and trained to detest reading, getting news only by watching television, trained to absorb the views of pundits and talking heads whose opinion always favors the interests of the elite, America’s population is robbed of divergent and diverse views, failing to grasp the dissenting opinions and debate needed for brains to analytically synthesize all angles of a story.

<snip>

The Keepers at the Gate determine the morsels and crumbs and bones of information we are allowed to see and hear. It is they who have made the Bush/Iraq war a war invisible and unseen, hidden from our conscious, its ramifications on our soldiers and on Iraqis made to disappear. It is they who brazenly darken the arrival of dead and injured soldiers, they who censor the horrors of war and the war crimes committed in our name. Thanks to the Keepers at the Gate, the Iraq war exists in the clouds, as if taking place in another planet, inside a vortex of unknowns, away from our gluttonous reality, our comfort level retained and secure from the ghastly realities of a war of choice upon millions of innocent Iraqis.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11242.h...

[Silverhair]

249. Update on the high school classes.

Of about 120 kids, 12 knew who he was by name without prompting. With a little bit of reminding, because of new coverage yesterday, about half would vaguely remember. I would then state who Tookie was, doing my best to state it in such a why that my own opinions would not influence the students.

In the afternoon I asked everyone if they though Tookie should be executed on Dec 13th, or given clemency to LWOP. Almost all of the boys and about half the girls voted for death. About half the girls voted for clemency. About 3 boys voted for clemency. There were about 50 students in the afternoon classes.

[nofurylike]

224. "Stanley ‘Tookie’ Williams’ Life Can Inspire..."

Commentary: Stanley ‘Tookie’ Williams’ Life Can Inspire – and Politicize – Our Troubled Teens
Date: Thursday, December 08, 2005
By: Judge Greg Mathis, Special to BlackAmericaWeb.com

(Judge Greg Mathis is chairman of the Rainbow PUSH-Excel board and a national board member of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference.)

http://www.blackamericaweb.com/site.aspx/sayitloud/mathis1209

As is his wish, let’s use the life story of Stan “Tookie” Williams to educate our young people about the realities and dangers of the street life. Williams, perhaps recent history’s most famous symbol of the debate on capital punishment, never had the opportunity to realize his full potential. Founder of the Crips street gang, Williams was convicted of killing four people and ended up on Death Row by the time he was in his mid-20s. If he’d have been given the proper guidance as a young man when he first began to get in trouble with the law, Williams could have positively tapped into his natural abilities as a leader.

Williams’ story has shed light on the criminal justice system’s unwillingness to rehabilitate offenders or recognize those that have reformed themselves. This ‘lock them up and throw away the key’ mentality has touched every area of the system. According to a report released by Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, there are 2,225 child offenders serving life sentences in 42 states in this country. In most cases, the accused killed someone. However, about 25 percent of those locked away didn’t commit the murder they were charged with. They were participating in a robbery or burglary that turned violent, but someone else committed the actual murder. In many states across the country, being at the scene of the murder is comparable to committing one and sentences are handed out accordingly. The government would like us to believe that these offenders are not children, but animals that deserve to be put away for life. But about 60 percent of the juveniles serving life sentences are first-time offenders.

To be fair, some crimes deserve a stiff sentence. But others involve special sets of circumstances that should be considered during sentencing. Many of these young people can be saved; letting them waste away in prison does very little to increase overall public safety, costs billions in tax dollars and destroys communities. The community hardest hit by these sentences is ours: about 55-percent of juvenile offenders doing life are black males. Our young men and boys are sentenced to life in prison at alarming and disproportionate rates. If this disturbing trend continues, black males will continue to dwindle in number and the African-American community will continue to suffer.

-snip-

As a community, we need to take the interest our young people have demonstrated in Williams’ case and use it to fully engage them in the political process. With their passions ignited, we can then educate them on the pressing social and political issues of the day and encourage them to exercise their right to vote. The only way these ‘one size fits all” laws can be changed and the disparities in the justice system can be abolished is if all of our citizens raise their voices in protest.

***

[KC_25]

226. How many people will put credibilty to his story

when he won't even give information about the gang he created to the authorties?

[StellaBlue]

233. I am against the death penalty and pro-clemency for Tookie, BUT...

I am so tired of the phrase 'people of color'. I find it insulting. I am white. I am not 100% genetically Anglo, but I am Anglo for all practical purposes. 'People of color' is EVERYONE else. WTF?!

To me, this phrase strikes me as one intended to sort of glorify people just for NOT being white. I can't help that I am white. And, besides, I have color, too - I am fair olive-skinned. The only people who aren't people of color are albinos.

There's nothing wrong with me just because I'm white. I am not personally responsible for historical racism. I fight every single day, both in the world and in myself, to advance the causes of freedom and humanity.

Sheesh.

[nofurylike]

282. great you against the death penalty, pro-clemency for him, thank you!

might make a good discussion some time, the rest you say here, StellaBlue.


peace

[nofurylike]

246. "Governor Schwarzenegger should halt execution..."

USA: Governor Schwarzenegger should halt execution of Stanley ‘Tookie’ Williams
9th December, 2005

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news/press/16669.shtml

Amnesty International is calling on the California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger to exercise his power to halt the forthcoming execution of Stanley ‘Tookie’ Williams, a death row prisoner due to be executed next week in the US state.

-snip-

While on death row Stanley Willliams has completely transformed himself, repudiating his past acts and violent lifestyle and dedicating himself to educating young people about the dangers of gang life.

Amnesty International UK Director Kate Allen said: “Mr Williams’ violent past is well known but he is a textbook version of rehabilitation and to now execute this man would be a travesty of justice.

-snip-

Since coming out of solitary confinement, his behaviour record in prison has been exemplary.

-snip-

***

PLEASE read this article!

Please contact Gov. Shwarzenegger in support of clemency:


Phone: [phone]

Email: [email protected]

FAX: [phone]


thank you!

[nofurylike]

247. that is Amnesty Internaitonal's Press Release TODAY!!! eom

[maveric]

252. Payback for the OJ verdict? n/t

[noiretextatique]

263. it's a modern day lynching...an american ritual

i bet some fools are even claiming it's so kind of "payback" for the OJ verdict. americans are a bloodthristy lot regardless of who the state decides to murder, but it is a guy like williams (black), so many cultural archetypes come into play. there are questions about the fairness of his trial and the versacity of the some of the witness who testified against him, so his execution is really not about that conviction, but all the things he was never tried or convicted for, like co-founding the crips, and who he was.
i'm against the death penalty, even for someone like williams, who undoubtedly committed heinous acts in his life. at least williams tried to stop others from repeating his life.

[nofurylike]

275. well said, noiretblu! thank you!

"at least williams tried to stop others from repeating his life."

yes!

[Nikia]

268. If he were a mafia boss, this wouldn't even be an issue

Some people are considered upstanding, despite their crimes, while others are considered vicious beasts. A black gang leader is probably America's most feared criminal and would be labled a vicious beast.
The death penalty is not just. It is neither an appropriate punishment nor applied fairly. Williams is not a danger to society in prision. He has used his time well.
Yes I believe that some people can be reformed, especially away from their former environments.

[nofurylike]

281. yes, Nikia! well said, thank you! eom

[Silverhair]

293. MSNBC online poll. Clemency 64% No, 36% Yes, 26540 responses NT

[Warren DeMontague]

274. Because he was convicted of killing four people.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong- personally, I'm opposed to the Death Penalty- but that IS the reason most people who support the execution feel that way.

But while we're on the subject, what, precisely, is the argument in this case? Is it that he's innocent? Because he claims he's innocent, but that's sort of thrown in as an afterthought.. Well, if he's really innocent, that should be the CENTERPIECE of the argument. Not 'redemption', not the fact that he's black, not the ridiculous notion that the punishment couldn't have anything to do with the crime because "America" obviously didn't care about three of the four victims--- because we used the atom bomb at the end of WWII..

(I'm sorry, but that's quite possibly one of the dumbest fucking assertions I've ever heard anyone make, about anything.)

Again, if he's really innocent, then -stop the damn presses- the whole debate should be: YOU ARE ABOUT TO KILL AN INNOCENT MAN!

But, for some reason, that aspect is down-pedaled.

And if the guy really did do it, he should own up to what he did. And then we can have a debate about the morality of the death penalty, period. About whether or not clemency is appropriate. Personally, a great deal (but not all) of my opposition to the Death Penalty right now is because I don't like the idea of the state, inept as it can be, putting to death people for things they didn't do. And life in prison isn't any kind of a treat. But if this guy really did shoot four people in cold blood, he should accept responsibility for it and then everyone can look at this case face on, while fully considering the people who died a brutal, cruel death at the end of that shotgun.

If he didn't do it, then THAT is ALL the debate should be about. He didn't fucking do it! But then he -and his supporters- should make that case, and drop everything else.

[laureloak]

278. I think that article is BS. n/t

[ecstatic]

287. If he started the crips, he deserves to die

And this is from someone who is opposed to the death penalty, but above everything else I have a strong love for my people, and a strong hatred towards anyone or anything that sets us back. Tookie is one of those people who sent hundreds of thousands of young black and hispanic teens on the wrong track, and I hate him for it. I just learned of what he did today. Before I only heard the side offered by Snoop Dog, etc. and I felt that putting him to death would be wrong. I can admit that it is wrong, but I still hate him for what he has done.

[sproutster]

288. "one" of the founders

Not THE founder. Gangs have been around a lot longer then the crips and the bloods. Irish gangs, Italian gangs... It was a matter of time. You would through away your beliefs because of this?

It's the "exceptions" that keep the DP fine and healthy.

[noiretextatique]

292. he was never on trial for starting the crips

ergo, he cannot be executed for that.

[ShaneGR]

295. Maybe playing the race card would work if his victims were white

But they weren't for the most part...

His conviction is for killing 3 Vietnamese and 1 white. None of the victims have spoken out on his execution, publicly stating they are afraid of reprisals from Tookey's gang the crips if they do. Took has never apologized to them personally by the way. Just vague stuff mostly.

While we're talking about the crips, as co-founder of the Crips, how much blood is on his hands? How much blood is white? not much. How much blood is black. A lot.

That about sums it up.

[noiretextatique]

297. the allegation is that the race card was played by the DA

in the jury selection process. hardly an uncommon practice, btw.