12/7 *** DEBATE *** Clemency hearing tomorrow; For or Against DP?

[nofurylike]

Have you really thought about it? Have you really made up your mind?

IF YOU FAVOR THE DP, perhaps you might want to listen to this interview, and reconsider your stand on the death penalty?

IF YOU ARE AGAINST THE DP, this might encourage you to become more involved in abolishing it.

Please talk about what you think of the interview.

Second Hour - the case of Stanley "Tookie" Williams

We'll take another look at the case of Stanley "Tookie" Williams, who's scheduled to be executed at San Quentin State Prison. Tom Hayden will be joined by California Assemblymember Mark Leno, who is a sponsor of the Assembly bill calling for a moratorium on the death penalty.

Listen to the interview @

http://www.pacifica.org/programs/sundaysalon/051204.html

(NOTE: This interview provides a very detailed discussion of all aspects of the death penalty, including the effects of the lethal injection. If you are willing to call for another's death, at least have the guts to learn how that person you want dead will be killed.)


Stan Tookie Williams is scheduled to die by lethal injection on Dec. 13. Gov. Schwarzenegger will hold a clemency (life w/o parole) hearing on Dec. 8.


Please contact Gov. Shwarzenegger in support of clemency:


Phone: [phone]

Email: [email protected]

FAX: [phone]

snail mail address:
Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger
State Capitol Building
Sacramento, CA 95814


Please sign the petition for clemency
http://www.petitiononline.com/stw4804/petition.html

Another petition
http://www.petitionthem.com/?sect=detail&pet=2240


Please see this previous thread. Much information:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5527516


Thank you!

[nofurylike]

1. "Never again will I raise my voice against the violence of the oppressed..

... in the ghettos without having first spoken clearly to the greatest purveyor of violence in the world, the U.S. government."

- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

[jim3775]

3. You took that out of context, that quote is about ending the Viet Nam war

Not about excusing the actions of a convicted mass murderer.

Here is the full quote:

As I have walked among the desperate, rejected and angry young men I have told them that Molotov cocktails and rifles would not solve their problems. I have tried to offer them my deepest compassion while maintaining my conviction that social change comes most meaningfully through nonviolent action. But they asked - and rightly so - what about Vietnam? They asked if our own nation wasn't using massive doses of violence to solve its problems, to bring about the changes it wanted. Their questions hit home, and I knew that I could never again raise my voice against the violence of the oppressed in the ghettos without having first spoken clearly to the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today - my own government.

"Beyond Vietnam" Speech at Riverside Church in New York City (April 4, 1967)

Edit: If you want to get into semantics, his use of "without having first spoken" means that he will eventually speak out against the violence in the ghettos.

[nofurylike]

11. he is speaking of "desperate, rejected and angry young men..." eom

[jim3775]

13. Poor desperate dejected tookie

It's okay if he brutally killed 4 people, he was desperate!

[Sapphire Blue]

70. Seems that Marlene Martin, National Director of The New Abolitionist...

... did the same thing...

UIC lecture sides with ex-gang leader

(excerpt)

Convinced that racism and injustice were manifested during the trial of Stanley Tookie Williams in 1981, Marlene Martin, National Director of The New Abolitionist, a newsletter of the campaign to end the death penalty, and Madison Hobley, a former Illinois death row inmate, passionately spoke to UIC students on Thursday, Dec. 1, informing them of the false evidence that led to the conviction of Williams, and asked them to take part in the fight to save him as his execution date of Dec. 13 approaches.

<snip>

Taking into consideration his past, Williams offered his words to The New Abolitionist, "My words are not an apology, nor a dawning plea of a condemned man. This is a declaration of truth that evokes the question, 'Can a Black man in America receive justice under the law?'"

"He doesn't deny his past." Martin stated. "But he's not going to apologize for something he didn't do."

<snip>

Martin finished the discussion with the words of Martin Luther King, "Never again will I raise my voice against the violence of the oppressed in the ghettos without having first spoken clearly to the greatest purveyor of violence in the world, the U.S. government."

http://www.chicagoflame.com/media/paper519/news/2005/12/05/Features/Uic-Lecture.Sides.With.ExGang.Leader-1121327.shtml

[KC_25]

114. Oh, please...

Yeah, he is innocent...and framed, and the very court that freed us albeit temporarily, from "Under God" could not see it?

[nofurylike]

4. IMPORTANT! Clemency bid to include claims of errors in trial

Clemency bid to include claims of errors in trial

BY JOHN SIMERMAN
Knight Ridder Newspapers
Dec. 06, 2005

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/13339771.htm

WALNUT CREEK, Calif. - What the jury saw was a musclebound hulk in a 4X jacket. What they heard about was barbaric: two cold-blooded robbery murders within 12 days, four dead and a suspect who was said to laugh hysterically as he mimicked the gurgling last breaths of one victim.

Who they heard it from: an alleged accomplice granted immunity, a jailhouse informant, an acquaintance with a checkered criminal past, a friend who later claimed police beat him into testifying.

A police expert tied a shell casing from one crime scene to a slide-action 12-gauge shotgun owned by Stanley "Tookie" Williams, but there were no fingerprints, no pictures, no bystanders to finger him. And no DNA that could bolster or silence his claim of innocence.

-snip-

Wefald said police never investigated Garrett for the murders, despite his possession of the shotgun and his knowledge of what happened.

-snip-

***

[jim3775]

7. IMPORTANT!! All of these "errors" have been addressed

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5527516&mesg_id=5534023

BTW, is cut&paste all you can do.

[Wind Dancer]

175. nofurylike, thanks for keeping this topic active.

Violence begets violence!

We're the only industrialized country that practices legalized murder.

1 The death penalty is racist.

2 The death penalty punishes the poor.

3 The death penalty condemns the innocent to die.

4 The death penalty is not a deterrent to violent crime.

5 The death penalty is "cruel and unusual punishment."

We need to end this barbaric act or the cycle will never end.

More info for those against the DP.

http://www.nodeathpenalty.org/fiveRs.html

[Union Thug]

2. I think it is a mistake for anti-DP side to associate too closely with

... the save Tookie bullhorn. I am against the death penalty in all cases, but implied support for a petty gang banger is not how you win people to our side. The focus of the debate needs to stay on the fact that the death penalty is wrong, not that Tookie is 'reformed' or has written childrens' books.

If Tookie is guilty, then he should serve the rest of his life in prison with no possibility of payroll and that's as far as we need to go with it.

If we need a poster-child case to rally around, it's staring us right in the face - the case of an innocent man being executed in Texas in 93.

[Silverhair]

5. Definitely no "payroll" for Tookie. LOL !! Be careful of spell-checkers.

It appears that you must have misspelled "parole" and the spell-checker brought up "payroll".

Hope you don't mind some good natured ribbing on an otherwise grim subject.

[Union Thug]

20. yeah, I need to spell check.. blah! :-) Too rushed.. ah well, I'm caught

Thx for humiliating me in public..geezzz... JK!!!

[Ekirh]

8. Agree with this post

I think I stated in an early thread that there has to be a better poster-child if you will for our cause against the D.P. A convicted murderer of four and the starter of the crips is not exactly who we should all rally around.

Life in prision with no possibility of parole is exactly as far as I'm going with it. No reform talk, No he's a hero talk etc. etc. No he's innocent talk because. I honestly don't think he's innocent.

When he starts giving information on the gang he helped create, then we can possibly talk about being reformed.

[nofurylike]

32. thank you. yes, i remember. we have to stop all executions, including

this one.

i have never asked anyone to do anything about this, but fight the DP equally.

i and others provide info on Mr Williams' case becase it has become the poster child for NOT taking action against an execution, when we must act against every execution, equally.

please consider expressing your opposition to the DP to the governor.

Phone: [phone]

Email: [email protected]

FAX: [phone]

snail mail address:
Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger
State Capitol Building
Sacramento, CA 95814


Please sign the petition for clemency
http://www.petitiononline.com/stw4804/petition.html

Another petition
http://www.petitionthem.com/?sect=detail&pet=2240


thank you!

[nofurylike]

12. that "innocent man...executed in Texas in 93" is why all DP must stop.

Mr Williams is not an exception.

until it is stopped, case-by-case still must go on.

where there is even the very slightest inkling of doubt, execution must not proceed.

there is far more than slight doubt in Mr Williams' case, as in many other cases. this case is now.

[nofurylike]

14. please notice that many who are against the DP will not act for clemency

for Mr Williams.

that is the problem. against it, except in his case?

check it out.

THAT is why this effort.

[Silverhair]

6. MSNBC online poll. Clemency: No 66%, Yes 43%, 18748 responses

as of 8:21AM CST

[nofurylike]

9. Judge: "...our solemn obligation to provide color-blind tribunals...."

UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS
FOR THE NINTH CIRCUIT

-snip

The full court was advised of the petition for rehearing en
banc. A judge requested a vote on whether to rehear the mat-ter
en banc. The matter failed to receive a majority of the
votes of the nonrecused active judges in favor of en banc con-sideration.
Fed. R. App. P. 35.

-snip

RAWLINSON, Circuit Judge, with whom PREGERSON,
REINHARDT, THOMAS, WARDLAW, W. FLETCHER,
FISHER, PAEZ, and BERZON, Circuit Judges join, dissenting
from denial of rehearing en banc:
In this case, a prosecutor, publicly castigated by the Supreme Court of California for his pattern of racially motivated peremptory jury challenges, removed all blacks from Williams’ jury. In declining to take this case en banc, our court bestows an implicit imprimatur upon the trial court’s denial of a constitutionally mandated jury selection process.
In my view, the panel opinion contains two errors: (1) failure
to issue a certificate of appealability (COA) to Williams despite his satisfaction of the standard for the grant of a COA, and (2) misapplication of the standard of proof to establish a prima facie case of Batson error. By increasing the burden of proof necessary to make a Batson prima facie showing, the panel cleared the way for attorneys “who are of a mind to discriminate” by exercising their peremptory challenges to excise prospective African-American jurors from the jury box. Batson v. Kentucky, 476 U.S. 79, 96 (1986).
I dissent from the denial of rehearing en banc not only because every defendant is entitled to a jury that is unbiased and untainted by racial discrimination in the jury-selection process, but also because the very legitimacy of our system of justice depends upon continued vigilance against such prac-tices.

-snip-

***

link:
Ninth Circuit Opinions page, scroll down to Feb 2, 2005 - Williams vs Woodford.

http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/ca9/newopinions.nsf/Opinions%20by%20date?OpenView&Start=1&Count=100&Expand=1.11#1.11

[jim3775]

10. More disinformation. Tookie was convicted by a racially mixed jury

In fact, Williams' own clemency lawyers have stipulated that the jury that convicted him in the 1979 murders of Albert Owens, Yen-I Yang, Tsai-Shai Yang and Yee Chen Lin during two armed robberies was not all-white. In the clemency petition, Williams' latest set of lawyers argued that prosecutor Robert Martin had kicked all African Americans off the jury. When prosecutors produced a death certificate that showed that juror William McLurkin was black, the lawyers noted in a reply that it doesn't matter if McLurkin was black or part-black, because he "looked Filipino."

Hello. That's not white. Williams' own Web site (www.tookie.com) features a fact sheet that, while asserting that no African Americans were on the jury, stipulates a Filipino and Latino served on the jury.

...
Let me add a few things you may not know: The not all-white jury convicted Williams after his alibi defense crumbled. Also, jurors had learned of Williams' plans for an armed escape from jail. The jury foreman testified that when the guilty verdict was announced, Williams mouthed this threat to the panel: "I'm going to get each and every one of you mother -- ."

Over the years as he appealed his conviction, his appellate lawyers claimed that Williams did not receive adequate counsel because his trial lawyer did not use a diminished capacity defense, as Williams was brain-damaged -- due to drug abuse, mental illness and head injuries. An appellate judge weighed in, "A mental-state defense would have contradicted (the alibi) defense by conceding petitioner's presence at the scenes of the murders." Despite numerous appeals, various courts -- including the liberal Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals -- continued to uphold his conviction.

The 9th circuit upheld his conviction. The 9th circuit is the most progressive appeals court in the US. That says a lot about this case.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/12/01/EDG5TG04SF1.DTL

[hiaasenrocks]

15. She routinely ignores facts. n/t

[nofurylike]

16. have you listened to the interview? i am hoping to hear what you think.

thank you.

[jim3775]

18. I don't understand this, you start a "debate" thread but you refuse to

talk about facts. Only emotional appeals and disinformation.

[KC_25]

44. Have you read this? Did you see the pictures of victims?

The small sum of money that he murdered them for?

I listened to your interview, and I was completey unmoved.
The lethal injection certainly sounds more peaceful than the way that his victims died.

Tookie wants to have a powerful message?
Tell him to make some spots that start out
"By the time you see(hear) this, I will have been put to death...for crimes... avoid the same fate as me.....stay out of gangs, and turn away if you are in them..."

That is a message that kids will remember, and it will certainly get more distribution than his ~330 books...
I challenge YOU and the POOR TOOKIE Brigade to read the link below... all of it.

http://www.knowgangs.com/blog/tookie.htm

[KC_25]

84. I guess she didnt read the info at the link

or like my suggestion on how tookie could reach even more youths.

[KC_25]

119. I have listened to the interview...Have you read the site that I posted?

I am curious to hear what you think about that..

[KC_25]

123. Did you read the website that I posted?

I am hoping to hear what you think..

[Walt Starr]

17. I was anti-DP in my youth

Mass Murderers like Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Daumer, Charles Manson, and Stan "Tookie" Williams changed my position on the DP.

[indie_voter]

37. Me too

I was extremely anti-dp.

I still think there are big problems with the way the DP as it stands now. I would strongly support a moratorium on the DP so society can make sure it is used fairly and only in extreme heinous cases (child killers, serial killers, senior citizen killers, those who prey on the weak.)

It disgusts me that Tookie Williams is being presented as an oppressed victim, a peacemaker no less.

Why hasn't he 'snitched' (his word, which is very telling) on the Crips? If he truly felt remorse for his past, why hasn't he done all he could, including answering any and all questions no matter how insignificant.

Many many people suffer from prejudice, suffer from injustice, Tookie is not one of them. He and his supporters are wrapping themselves in their flag and in the process they belittle the suffering of the true oppressed.

[BigYawn]

225. Yes, and don't forget John Wayne Gacy & Richard Speck

who murdered dozens and dozens of young people.
Murderers like that do not belong in the human race.

[hiaasenrocks]

19. Tookie Williams: His Life, His Crimes

December 2, 2005

As We See It: Williams: His life, his victims

On March 11, 1979, Stanley "Tookie" Williams broke down a door of the Brookhaven Motel in Los Angeles — according to a jury — and shot hotel owners Yen-I Yang and wife Ysai-Shai, and their daughter, Yee-Chen Lin, who was visiting from Taiwan.

A jury also convicted Williams of murdering Albert Owens in a Whittier 7-Eleven around the same time.

Williams is scheduled to die by lethal injection on Dec. 13, unless his life is spared by California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger.

A variety of death penalty opponents as well as political activists and a number of entertainers have come forward to call on Schwarzenegger to spare Williams' life. They argue that Williams is a changed man — and one who can teach even from a prison cell that young people should avoid the gang life and the world of violence.

Bruce Gordon, president and chief executive officer of the NAACP, has appealed to Schwarzenegger, saying the following in a written statement: "I am convinced that our community is best served if Stan is alive and contributing to the guidance of our youth. He is a one-of-a-kind human asset who needs to exercise his unique ability to touch the lives of young people."

Of course, Gordon did not bring up the names of his victims, nor did he discuss what contributions any of them could have made.

Is Williams a changed man? Does it matter even if he is?

Some question whether Williams has truly expressed remorse. Rather, he holds to his innocence, even while he authors children's books encouraging alternatives to a life of violence.

However, the evidence against him is overwhelming. The evidence included his own words following the slayings, as well as physical evidence of a shotgun — and eyewitness accounts. Defense claims have included a charge that African Americans were left off the jury — despite the reality that there was an African American man on the panel that ruled unanimously as to his guilt.

Whether he has expressed remorse or whether he is a changed man really shouldn't figure into Schwarzenegger's decision. The death penalty is supposed to be a deterrent, and if it's used, it should be applied as a penalty for actions taken. Williams' remorse or his children's books don't bring his victims back to life. They don't change his actions and the duty of society to punish him appropriately.

A separate question is whether the death penalty is appropriate at all. We have long felt that the death penalty ought to be part of society's arsenal in its efforts to defend peace and order. But recent disclosures of erroneous convictions have made us wonder whether our society can be certain that only guilty people have been put to death.

That's a separate issue. Perhaps state law should change with regard to the death penalty.

But capital punishment remains the law of the land, and the overwhelming evidence is that Williams murdered innocent victims in a way that's consistent with the law calling for punishment by death. Unless Schwarzenegger vows to put an end to all death penalty cases, we see no logical reason for him to spare Williams' life.

http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/archive/2005/December/02/edit/stories/01edit.htm

[hiaasenrocks]

21. OP-ED: Our Real Heroes Don't Kill Black Kids

Our real heroes don't kill black kids

Celebrities and community activists are dishonestly painting romanticized portraits of men such as Stanley Williams.

December 4, 2005 latimes.com

By Joe R. Hicks, Joe R. Hicks is a social critic, commentator and vice president of Community Advocate Inc. He formerly directed the activities of the Los Angeles Human Relations Commission and Southern Christian Lead

LURKING BEHIND the question of "Should Tookie die?" being pondered by Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger are the troubling attempts by some of Stanley Tookie Williams' supporters to present the Crips' purported co-founder as a role model for inner-city youth.

The effort is molded after the campaign to turn Mumia Abu-Jamal, a convicted cop-killer, into a political prisoner. Abu-Jamal now sits on Pennsylvania's death row with his case grinding its way through various levels of appeals. Two decades ago, Abu-Jamal was involved in a confrontation that resulted in the point-blank execution of Philadelphia Police Officer Daniel Faulkner. With eyewitnesses and the murder weapon on hand (Abu-Jamal's own gun), the prosecutor called it "the strongest homicide case I ever tried." A jury of two blacks and 10 whites took just six hours to render a guilty verdict.

The mists of political mythology (the bullet that killed the officer was a different caliber than Abu-Jamal's gun; someone else shot Faulkner; the police framed Abu-Jamal, etc.) now obscure a case that over the years has become a prime cause for the nation's leftist activists, including, of course, the Hollywood Left.

The list of celebrities advocating on behalf of Abu-Jamal includes Maya Angelou, Martin Sheen, Jesse Jackson, Spike Lee, Paul Newman, Tim Robbins and Oliver Stone. Hundreds of thousands of dollars have been contributed to the legal defense of Abu-Jamal — whom novelist Alice Walker bizarrely likened to Nelson Mandela.

Mythology and misguided celebrities also surround Williams, who was convicted and sentenced to death for the killing in February 1979 of Albert Owens, a clerk at a 7-Eleven store in Whittier, and for the murder one month later of Tsai-Shai Chen Yang, Yen-I Yang and Yu-Chin Yang Lin at their family-run motel in Los Angeles.

The facts are as clear as Williams' crimes were senseless and gory. The sawed-off shotgun used in the murders belonged to Williams. Others involved in the crimes fingered him as the shooter. Several witnesses testified that he bragged about the killings in gruesome detail. The jury that convicted Williams was racially mixed, and nothing indicates that his defense team was less than excellent.

Williams' appeals have been denied by the California Supreme Court, the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals (the most liberal appeals court in the nation) and the U.S. Supreme Court. Last week, the state Supreme Court heard a last-ditch appeal from Williams' attorneys and again rejected it.

The strongest case for clemency is made by Williams' activities in recent years while on death row. His supporters say that no matter what he may have done in earlier years, his later actions indicate that he has redeemed himself. This view was expressed in a slanted made-for-television movie "Redemption," in which Jamie Foxx portrayed Williams as an innocent man.

This is an argument that his own defense team wisely avoids making in its clemency petition to the governor — choosing to base its arguments not on evidence so many have already found conclusive, but on Williams being a changed man.

I applaud Williams' efforts, while incarcerated, to steer youngsters from the ruthless gang life. But the people who dishonestly paint folk hero portraits of men such as Abu-Jamal and Williams (and even of 50 Cent, the thug and drug dealer-turned-rapper whose chief claim to fame is surviving being shot nine times by a rival) would do far more good by hitting young people with another message: that personal responsibility and accountability must be a part of civilized society.

In 2003, when L.A. experienced a 23% drop in homicides, 39% of the city's 505 murder victims were black and 36% of the homicide suspects were black, though only 11% of the city's population is black. For five straight years, about 40% of L.A.'s homicide victims have been black. If the celebrities and community activists supporting Williams began lifting up real community heroes — such as teachers, police officers, members of the clergy, hardworking parents or veterans of the Iraq war — maybe we could begin to change the dynamics of neighborhoods suffering from the predatory effects of Tookie wannabes.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/sunday/commentary/la-op-tookie4dec04,0,2958733.story?coll=la-sunday-commentary

[hiaasenrocks]

22. "Crips founder Williams deserves death sentence"

Crips founder Williams deserves death sentence

Last Updated: November 28, 2005, 07:50:00 AM PST

As the Dec. 13 execution date for Stanley "Tookie" Williams approaches, opponents of the death penalty have begun organizing high-profile protests to save the life of the co-founder of the Crips street gang. Little concern has been expressed for the four people Williams was convicted of killing in 1979.
Williams, 51, continues to deny his guilt despite overwhelming evidence, including testimony from his accomplices. His defenders say he has redeemed himself by turning his life around in prison and being active in anti-gang efforts. While his recent work is admirable, it doesn't come close to balancing out the violent deaths of a 7-Eleven clerk and three members of a family that ran a motel in Los Angeles.

Williams has had his conviction reconsidered in a lengthy appeals process, and the results have never changed: He is still convicted of killing four people in two separate robberies with a shotgun that he had purchased.

There is a movement under way to create an image of Williams that is at odds with the facts. For starters, he has not been a model citizen, according to authorities who have kept records on him since the awful murders.

Williams tried to escape prior to his trial in 1981. Then he threatened the jury that convicted him. He was involved in a violent fight with another inmate at San Quentin two months after his arrival. He threatened correctional officers and twice threw chemical substances at his guards.

To this day, Williams refuses to be debriefed by prison authorities about the actual activities of his gang. He says that would make him a "snitch." Does that suggest Williams wants to make up for his gang activity? Sounds like he's still a gang member.

In a written statement, Los Angeles County District Attorney Steve Cooley says Williams' recent turnaround must be weighed against the gang that he helped create. The Crips are violent and predatory, and chapters are now active across the nation and in several other countries.

While many reasonable and sincere people oppose the death penalty, California voters have repeatedly supported its use. Tookie Williams was fairly tried and convicted, and he should get the punishment that our state's court system says he deserves — death by legal injection.

http://www.modbee.com/opinion/story/11529891p-12266430c.html

[hiaasenrocks]

23. Regarding the Nobel Prize nomination....

Who doesn't have a Nobel Prize nomination?

By Eugene Volokh, Eugene Volokh is a professor of law at UCLA Law School.

MANY advocates of clemency for Stanley Tookie Williams note that he has been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize and the Nobel Prize in literature for his anti-gang work, which includes writing children's books. How could a convicted murderer and co-founder of the Crips be nominated for such prizes?

According to Nobel Prize nominating rules, any "professor of social sciences, history, philosophy, law and theology" and any judge or national legislator in any country, among others, can nominate anyone for a Nobel Peace Prize. Past nominees include Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, Benito Mussolini and Fidel Castro. Any "professor of literature of linguistics," among others, can nominate anyone for a Nobel Prize in literature.

Naturally, many nominees have real merit. But being nominated by one or a few of the hundreds of thousands of eligible nominators is little evidence of such merit. This is especially so when the nominee is a source of controversy, and when it may seem that nominating him may prevent his execution.

It would surely be helpful to readers if news stories mentioning Williams' nominations — or, for that matter, any Nobel peace or literature prize nominations — stressed how unselective the nomination process is.

We're used to prize nominations signifying relatively broad acclaim, as for an Oscar. When a nomination means nothing other than a recommendation from a professor (or even a few professors and a legislator), that should to be made clear.

Besides, a convicted murderer's nominations for Nobel prizes shed little light on the complex question of whether he is sincerely contrite, whether he has done good deeds and whether his life should be spared.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/sunday/commentary/la-op-tookienobel4dec04,0,5637705.story?coll=la-sunday-commentary

[hiaasenrocks]

24. Race and the Tookie Williams case...

Will someone explain how racism accounts for the following in this case:

1. One expended twelve-gauge shotgun shell was recovered by investigators during the crime scene investigation at the Brookhaven Motel.

2. A twelve-gauge High Standard slide-action shotgun bearing serial number 3194397, was traced to Williams. In addition, a federal “Firearms Transaction Record” records Williams’ purchase of the shotgun, on February 25, 1974. Williams signed the transaction record and used his California driver’s license for identification purposes when he purchased the shotgun.

3. A firearms expert testified that the expended twelve-gauge shotgun shell that was recovered by investigators at the Brookhaven Motel, was fired from Williams’ shotgun, to the exclusion of all other firearms.

4. Two expended twelve-gauge shotgun shells were recovered by investigators during the crime scene investigation at the 7-Eleven. Although these two shells lacked sufficient identifying characteristics to be conclusively matched to Williams’ shotgun, the firearms expert testified that they were consistent with having been fired from that weapon. Moreover, the firearms expert did not find any dissimilarity that would exclude trial exhibits 9C and 9D from having been fired from Williams’ shotgun.

5. A jury of nine caucasians, one black, one Filipino, and one Latino found Williams guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in four homicides, and unanimously voted for the death penalty. Appeals in numerous courts before many judges over a quarter of a century have all concurred with the original jury's findings.

[hiaasenrocks]

25. Concerned that this defendant didn't get a fair trial?

Here's a summary of the appellate review, spanning almost a quarter of a century. All the various judges and courts have concurred with the findings of the original jury.

PROCEDURAL HISTORY AND APPELLATE REVIEW
To date, Stanley Williams’ case has received extensive legal scrutiny in both state and federal court. Since his conviction in 1981, Williams has pursued multiple appeals and habeas corpus petitions. In each and every instance, in both state and federal court, his conviction has been affirmed as appropriate and just.

• On April 18, 1980, the trial court granted Williams’ motion to substitute his hand-picked attorney, Joseph Ingber, as attorney of record in place of Gerald Lenoir.
• On January 21, 1981, the jury trial commenced and on March 13, 1981, the jury returned guilty verdicts of four counts of first degree murder and two counts of robbery. The jury also found the special circumstance allegations of robbery-murder and multiple murder to be true. Lastly, the jury found true the special allegations that defendant Williams personally used a shotgun and that a principal was armed with a firearm.
• On March 17, 1981, both parties having rested without presenting evidence at the penalty phase, argument was presented on behalf of the People and defendant Williams as to whether the penalty should be death or life imprisonment without possibility of parole. Following arguments and instructions of law by the Court on this issue, the jury, on March 18, 1981, returned a verdict of death as to each of the charged first-degree murders.
• On April 15, 1981, defendant Williams’ motions for a new trial and for modification of the verdict and findings imposing the death penalty were heard by the Court and denied. The trial court then sentenced Williams to death on counts 1, 2, 3 and 7.
• On April 11, 1988, on automatic appeal to the California Supreme Court, in the cases of People v. Stanley Williams, Crim. No. 21977, and In re Stanley Williams, Crim. No. 23806, consolidated under Case No. S004365, and published at (1988) 44 Cal.3d 1127, the imposition of the death penalty was affirmed and defendant Williams’ first habeas petition was denied following an evidentiary hearing.
• On January 18, 1989, the California Supreme Court denied defendant Williams’ second state habeas petition in Case No. S008526.
• On that same date, January 18, 1988, defendant Williams filed his first federal habeas petition in the United States District Court in Case No. CV89-00327SVW. The district court held that petition in abeyance while defendant Williams returned to the California Supreme Court with his unexhausted claims.
• On April 11, 1994, following another evidentiary hearing, the California Supreme Court denied defendant Williams’ third state habeas petition in Case No. S011868, published at (1994) 7 Cal.4th 572.
• On June 21, 1995, the California Supreme Court denied defendant Williams’ fourth state habeas petition in Case No. S039285.
• On December 21, 1988, defendant Williams returned to federal court and, following an evidentiary hearing, the United States District Court denied defendant Williams’ amended habeas petition in Case No. CV89-00327-SVW, and published its order at (1998) 41 F.Supp.2d 1043.
• On December 17, 1999, defendant Williams’ subsequent Rule 60(b) motion to reopen the judgment was denied, and the order was published at (1999) 1999 WL 1320903.
• On September 10, 2002, the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit denied defendant Williams’ direct appeal and Rule 6 (b) motion in Case Nos. 99-99018 and 00-99001, published at (2002)306 F.3d 665.
• On September 9, 2004, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals amended the opinion and denied defendant Williams’ petition for rehearing and suggestion for rehearing en banc, published at (2004) 384 F.3d 567.
• On February 2, 2005, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals denied defendant Williams’ subsequent petition for rehearing and suggestion for rehearing en banc, published at (2005) 396 F.3d 1059.
• Finally, on October 11, 2005, the United States Supreme Court denied defendant Williams’ petition for writ of certiorari in Case No. 04-10500. As this historical accounting proves, Williams has benefited from a detailed and exhaustive review of all of his legal claims and each court has affirmed the guilty verdicts and affirmed the death sentence. In doing so, our courts, both state and federal, have given appropriate and serious consideration to Williams, consideration which Williams so violently denied each of his victims.

http://www.lacountyda.org/pdf/swilliams.pdf

[hiaasenrocks]

26. This thread will likely contain the "all white jury" propaganda.

The jury in the Tookie Williams murder trial was not all white.

There was a Filipino, an Hispanic, and a black person on the jury.

Article after article confirm this.

I noticed that the Tookie Williams website now states that the jury was "virtually all white." LOL. To steal an old joke, is that like being kinda pregnant?

The Save Tookie side relies on misinformation and deliberate obfuscation of the facts in this case.

Trial facts here (pdf format): http://www.lacountyda.org/pdf/swilliams.pdf

[H2O Man]

27. I strongly urge people

to contact the governor and express support for the effort to spare this man's life.

I recognize and respect that there is a wide range of views on the death penalty, and indeed this case. I am not so bold or so blind as to think that my opinion is "right" or that others are wrong. Each of us is entitled to our own opinion, based on our own values.

Some have pointed out what they believe are weaknesses in the legal case that convicted Williams decades ago. Others have said that, because they believe he is guilty, the possible errors in his case are of no concern to him. I think that is an area that should be given far more attention, for indeed our legal system is based in large part on the theory that everyone -- even the guilty -- are entitled to a fair trial. I am in favor of a system that is at very least as concerned with the rights of victims of crimes, as with the rights of criminals.

Yet I am also fully aware that a system that willingly cuts corners on the rights of the accused, puts at risk the rights of the innocent. And, as I have said on other related threads, that is not the long arm of coincidence, wrenching itself out of socket in a desperate grasp of facts in this case: it is the harsh, cold reality of people serving time in America's prisons for crimes they simply did not commit.

I have read reasonable people say that, while they used to oppose capital punishment, the horror of the crimes of some sociopaths has changed their minds. It has caused thoughtful and intelligent people to conclude that in some cases, the death enalty is justified and even desireable.

I do understand that. Oh, yes, I surely do. But, again, I am reminded that our legal system is not perfect. We have had numerous people incarcerated for years, even decades, only to have evidence uncovered that proves not just that they are "not guilty" in a legal sense, but absolutely innocent in every sense.

It would be a lie to say that the number of innocent people executed in the United States has approached the number of guilty sociopaths who are the strongest argument for capital punishment. But this isn't a numbers game. It's a question of life and death, and a question of what type of society we are.

I assume that most of the DUers who believe in redemption, and who are concerned over the racial aspects of the judicial system, and who are strongly opposed to the death penalty, have already called the governor. Thank you.

And, likewise, many of those DUers who are in favor of capital punishment have either determined they should not call, or have called to express support for killing Tookie Williams. While I can not sincerely thank you, I do understand why you make those choices.

So I'm mainly hoping to reach out to those who either have mixed feelings, or who haven't really given this topic much thought. Please consider calling the governor. I hope that you will ask his office to spare this man's life.

Thank you for your consideration.

[nofurylike]

36. humble gratitude, H20 Man. eom

[Wind Dancer]

181. H20 Man, wonderful points.

"It would be a lie to say that the number of innocent people executed in the United States has approached the number of guilty sociopaths who are the strongest argument for capital punishment. But this isn't a numbers game. It's a question of life and death, and a question of what type of society we are."


You ask tough questions that I hope people are willing to ask themselves.

[nofurylike]

28. Wednesday, December 7 at 7:30 p.m. ET/PT BET will televise

BET will televise Stanley Tookie Williams: A Question of Justice on Wednesday, December 7 at 7:30 p.m. ET/PT, with an encore showing at 11:00 p.m. ET/PT.

http://eurweb.com/story.cfm?id=23799

-snip-

BET News will go inside the case of Los Angeles “Crips” gang co-founder Stanley Tookie Williams and the growing controversy over whether he should be granted clemency for a quadruple-murder conviction.

-snip-

BET News will go inside the case of Los Angeles “Crips” gang co-founder Stanley Tookie Williams and the growing controversy over whether he should be granted clemency for a quadruple-murder conviction.

-snip-

In addition to presenting this in-depth review of the Williams case, BET News will closely and report on the pivotal events of this week which will determine Williams’ fate, including his clemency hearing before California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger on December 8; the anticipated decision by the governor by week’s end; and Williams scheduled execution on December 13.

***

[hiaasenrocks]

29. Something to consider if you are on the fence.

I encourage everyone to do their own research. Seek answers to the questions you may have about this case. That's the fair way to do it.

As part of the evidence, I would suggest that you take into account the fact that the Save Tookie side has relied on misinformation and deliberate obfuscation of the facts. In addition, they refuse to discuss the facts of the trial and the numerous appeals this defendant received. They have been called out on this misinformation campaign probably hundreds of times at this point, and they steadfastly refuse to address these posts. It's all here on this website for everyone to see.

Considering the above, it has to make you wonder how strong a case there is for this defendant. If it were clear cut, if there were any serious doubts to be had about this case, they wouldn't need to engage in the spinning and lying.

Just something to consider.

And I know this post only applies to people on the fence. If you are anti-DP on moral grounds, I can respect that. But nofurylike and SapphireBlue are advancing theories that call this defendant's guilt into question -- with exactly no verifiable evidence for their cause. (ex.: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5519400&mesg_id=5521159)

[H2O Man]

30. As one of the people

who has been advocating on Mr. William's behalf on DU, I would certainly invite DUers to review everything that I have had to say about the case, and if you have concerns that I am relying upon "misinformation and deliberate obfuscation of the facts," please let me know.

But this issue is really more important than a personality contest: it is of less importance if you "like" those DUers who are either "pro-" or "anti-" death penalty. While the emotional content of the debate on capital punishment is real, it is more important that people consider their own value system.

[hiaasenrocks]

33. I am referring to the two most vocal

Tookie Groupies. (Not sure if it's fair to name them but I think everyone knows who they are. They start the Save Tookie threads.) They have been called out on their disinformation and they repeatedly refuse to respond with any facts. It's obvious.

For your part, though, aren't you the one who posted in one of the Tookie threads and made the Hitler/Nazi comparison in terms of the DP? I already made my view on that clear. To compare our justice system (a deliberative system made up of the citizenry) to Hitler/Nazism (a war-mongering genocidal maniac) is absurd. It not only grossly misrepresents our justice system, it denigrates the memory of those who died at the hands of Nazi Germany. That's my opinion.

[H2O Man]

42. Yes, that was me.

The post that you describe as "absurd" was read and appreciated by a significant number of DUers. Of course you are entitled to your opinions, but I think that we do well to question when our government takes the role of deciding who lives and who dies in our country. While you may have supreme faith in the justice system, the simple fact is that it is not perfect: there are issues involving racism; incidents of police and prosecutors engaging in misconduct; and even sincere errors by both judges and juries. These have led to people being wrongly convicted. I believe that this increases the risk that innocent people will be the victims of capital punishment -- something that I suspect actually comes closer to denigrating the memory of those who died at the hand of Nazi Germany than my making the comparison. However, you are surely entitled to find my making the comparison more offensive than the punishment of innocent people.

More, I quoted a couple sources that others in our culture have respected as insightful thinkers -- from Gandhi to Merton to St. Thomas Aquinas -- who have made statements about the nature of those who are incapable of forgiveness, and who are convinced that redemption is not possible or of value -- and who use Hitler as an example of that type of thought system. Again, you have every right to find those fellows "absurd." From the position that you take on this case, I would expect you to .... it would be far harder to imagine that you felt that Gandhi, Merton, or Thomas Aquinas were other than "absurd" and take the aggressive stance that you do. You likely have a similar opinion of Viktor Frankl, who taught the same basic message as the other three, and might find his beliefs denigrate the memory of those who died at the hands of Nazis. I fully expect that to be the case.

[hiaasenrocks]

45. It wouldn't have mattered if I was

the only person who disagreed with the Hitler/Nazi comparison. The number of people who agreed with you didn't surprise me, actually.

For the record, I don't have "supreme faith" in the justice system. You're making that up. Please stick to facts.

Still, I have seen no reasonable or factual evidence that should cause any serious person to believe that the US justice system is on par with Nazi Germany's extermination practices.

Your post is full of "I expect you believe..." and "you probably..." straw-men. Again, let's stick to the facts here. I am not objecting to you disagreeing with my position; I would simply ask that you refrain from falsely accusing me of believing or supporting something, and then attacking that falsely ascribed belief. Thank you.

[H2O Man]

51. Actually, I didn't

make anything up. I had quoted the three people that I just named, and they were the source of the Nazi comparison. You clearly disagreed with the comparison, and directed your disagreement towards me. I simply noted that my position, which you describe in the word I quoted, was supported by the three mentioned sources, as well as numerous DUers.

If you indeed recognize the US justice system is capable of error, and that those errors lead to innocent people being punished, I'd be curious how you are able to see that as distinct from the Nazis? I should remind you that you -- no strawman -- pointed out that the numbers of people involved is not what matters.

You can ask me to refrain from doing things that I'm not doing, if that is the strongest point that you can build your case upon. Or you can stick to the points at hand. I expect you will respond according to your nature. Thank you.

[KC_25]

55. I'll reply...

Quite simply man is not infallible, nor will he ever be. THe legal system is indeed imperfect, and there is much that could be done to improve it.
What errors led to the execution of Tookie's victims? What errors led to threats against the Jurors, an escape plan? What errors?

You ask what seperates us from the Nazis, I will tell you, Due process of the law. Mr. Williams had a trial, was found guilty and sentenced to die. Both the verdict, and the sentence have stood up to 25 years of appeals, and pleas in the one of, if not the most left leaning state in the Union. As one poster stated, the 9th Circuit court is "the most liberal court in the country" and that if he couldnt get sympathy for his cause, real, percieved or implied by a majority of that court then the case against him must not be so bad, or he truly deserves what he is going to get.
How many Jews in Nazi Germany got that kind of due process?

[H2O Man]

57. Interesting reply.

Again, I recognize that people have every right to believe that capital punishment is a good thing for guilty people. I'm not saying that my opinion is better or more valuable for them, than their's is for me.

However, you did not answer my questions. You made a statement about when the legal system works correctly in convicting guilty people. My stance has to do with when innocent people are convicted, an issue that you choose to ignore. But that is your right.

[KC_25]

64. No I did reply....

You chose to ignore the fact that man is falible and therefore there will be innocents punished with the guilty.

You asked, based on the fact that innocent people may be executed, "what seperates us from teh Nazis?" and I replied, Due process. Far from perfect, but it is what we have. The people of the state of California, found Tookie Guilty, and sentenced him to death. He has exhausted all legal means of appeal... it is time that the sentence be carried out.


You want Tookie to send a message that may help prevent other young black men from being on death row...read the suggestion that I posted earlier in the thread, that will likely gather more attention in a few days, than his books will over the next 50 years.

[H2O Man]

68. I think that

you have a rigid thought system that makes discussion impossible ....if you think that saying "due process" makes any difference for someone who is wrongly executed, there is little left to say to you. But again, I respect that even a person who has the rigid belief that "due process" makes executing innocent people an A-okay thing -- distinct from those evil Nazis -- has a right to the opinion that reflects the nature of their being.

[KC_25]

72. I think that the number of "innocents" on death row

are pretty near nil. I think that it is tragic that they lose their life. But it is what we have, you want to change it, get the states to amend their constitutions.
You are right, I do have a rigid thought system.

"if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen"
In other words, if you arent prepared to pay the consequences, then do not commit a crime.

[H2O Man]

75. The problem with rigid

thought processes, are that one can say that if innocent people can't take the heat of the electric chair, they should simply not commit the crimes they are falsely convicted of. Thanks for that!

[KC_25]

83. Well lets see..

How many people outside of hollywood fairy tales have been snatched out of their homes and executed for crimes that they didnt commit? What put those "innocents" in the line of the police to begin with? Lets say that Tookie, for example didnt kill these 4 people (he did), but is it so bad that the man who founded the crips and is at best, indirectly responsible for the deaths and corruption of so many youths in America gets executed? No, I am sorry, I don't think so.

[stepnw1f]

185. How Many Folks Did He Help Straighten Out?

You can take life, and then you can save life too. This man seems to have made ammends. Why kill somebody that benefits society? Is that not a waste? What is the purpose of execution? Revenge....?

That's kinda petty compared to the benefit he is now, while serving a life long sentence to think about what he has done. That sounds like justice with positive recourse.

So why execute the man?

[hiaasenrocks]

197. Tell us. How many? n/t

[stepnw1f]

199. too many to count

and too many for those who like to punish. It would ruin their entertainment.

[Silverhair]

200. Proof please?

I would like to see some proof that Tookie is as effective as your side says he is.

[stepnw1f]

201. You Need Proof?

sad... and what do you get from his death?

[hiaasenrocks]

203. Just admit it: You have no proof.

You're making the assertion (with no proof) and when someone asks you to substantiate it, you say it's "sad."

Great. We're really learning a lot here. Thanks so much for that.

[stepnw1f]

212. You Aren't Here to Learn Though

are you...?

[Silverhair]

204. Yes. If you make a claim, it is fair for me to ask for proof. NT

[stepnw1f]

214. Anything is Fair When Asking the Impossible

This isn't a court, but you know that. You seem determined to prove this guy should get fried... Why?

[stepnw1f]

215. "My Side"... So What Side Are You?

That's what I thought.... hang the man!!! Kill, kill, kill...

[nofurylike]

216. thank you, stepnw1f! peace! eom

[stepnw1f]

220. You're Most Welcome! nt

[Wind Dancer]

231. The side to hang the man and rejoice!

The pleasure people feel with legalized murder is astonishing. We are regressing in this country rapidly.

[Mairead]

134. Due process is what separates us from the Nazis?? Don't kid yourself

The Nazis were complete sticklers for process and legalisms. Everything they did was 100% legal under their laws--every one of their victims got the benefit of what they considered due process.

[nofurylike]

217. exactly. thank you, Mairead! peace! eom

[hiaasenrocks]

62. Oh, well in that case....

please back up the claim that I have "supreme faith" in the justice system.

If you weren't making up that accusation, surely you have evidence. A link or something.

And I cited your other straw-men statements. Others can make up their own mind about it by referencing your previous posts.

Thanks.

[H2O Man]

66. If you recognize the

legal system is capable of errors, including convicting innocent people, and that such legal errors can be rooted in police/prosecutors' misdeeds ..... than please explain how that experience differs for the victim, from the victims of the Nazi death camps?

Or avoid answering a simple question in your quest for an open debate. Thank you.

[KC_25]

69. I replied to that exact question..

then you said I ignored it?

[H2O Man]

71. Perhaps

if you read the sequence of posts you responded to, you will recognize your error. If not, nothing that I can say to you matters.

[KC_25]

81. Yes let us look at the order then? Shall we?

Post #51-You
If you indeed recognize the US justice system is capable of error, and that those errors lead to innocent people being punished, I'd be curious how you are able to see that as distinct from the Nazis? I should remind you that you -- no strawman -- pointed out that the numbers of people involved is not what matters

post #55 Me, in response to above post
You ask what seperates us from the Nazis, I will tell you, Due process of the law. Mr. Williams had a trial, was found guilty and sentenced to die. Both the verdict, and the sentence have stood up to 25 years of appeals, and pleas in the one of, if not the most left leaning state in the Union. As one poster stated, the 9th Circuit court is "the most liberal court in the country" and that if he couldnt get sympathy for his cause, real, percieved or implied by a majority of that court then the case against him must not be so bad, or he truly deserves what he is going to get.
How many Jews in Nazi Germany got that kind of due process?

57-you
However, you did not answer my questions. You made a statement about when the legal system works correctly in convicting guilty people. My stance has to do with when innocent people are convicted, an issue that you choose to ignore. But that is your right

64 Me

You asked, based on the fact that innocent people may be executed, "what seperates us from teh Nazis?" and I replied, Due process. Far from perfect, but it is what we have. The people of the state of California, found Tookie Guilty, and sentenced him to death. He has exhausted all legal means of appeal... it is time that the sentence be carried out.

and then you state that I am rigid in my thought process blah blah blah...


So what was the order or sequence of posts that you took issue with?

[H2O Man]

86. Do you have

the ability to read what posts corresponds to the one before it? Perhaps you are not familiar with the layout. Look in the upper right-hand corner, and see if you can figure it out.

[KC_25]

89. Would you like it if I took a screen shot so that you could see

the order that they were laid out in? along with the times? You asked, I replied, the post numbers are right there, anyone can see the order that the questions were asked and answered in.
If I am "so out of sequence" would someone please point it out while I do the screenies of the posts?

[H2O Man]

95. You are silly. n/t

[KC_25]

99. No, Seriously...

If the responses are so out of sequence then please educate me as to how...

[hiaasenrocks]

110. Ah, let him run away.

He won't answer you. He'll just continue to claim that you haven't answered him, even though you have. He's doing the same to me in the discussion below. It's obvious.

On to better things!

[H2O Man]

122. Please.

You know better.

Your ally responded to a comment I made to you, and I pointed that out. I had heard his opinion, and had noted that while I do not agree with it, he is surely entitled to it. There was no question that I had any interest in his answering as part of a discussion.

You, on the other hand, have refused to answer my question. It seems likely, because you insist that you have, that either you honestly do not understand what I am asking you, or you simply do not wish to answer it.

[KC_25]

125. I have to say that I am still

so fucking confused by what you say is the out of sequence posts and comments, I even posted the screen shot so that you would see what I was seeing...

but hey, like you say, to each his own.

[KC_25]

131. Ohhhhhh I seeeee

"There was no question that I had any interest in his answering as part of a discussion."


You didnt like the answer, so you ignored it...Geesh, I guess I should have figured that one out.

[hiaasenrocks]

166. Check below.

I explained how you are twisting this argument.

Please back up your ORIGINAL statement, and then we can continue. Until you offer us any reason to accept your position, why should anyone give any credence to what you're saying?

[KC_25]

98. here is the screen shot..

please explain how my answers to your questions are out of sequence..

[hiaasenrocks]

196. :crickets chirping: (n/t)

[hiaasenrocks]

76. Wait a minute.

Are you going to show me where I said I have "supreme faith" in the US justice system?

You have yet to explain how the the US justice system is comparable to the Nazi genocide.

Are you going to do that?

The US justice system:
-is based on law
-is run by citizens
-allows the accused to face his/her accuser
-allows the accused to mount a defense against the charges
-provides legal counsel to those who cannot afford it
-allows the accused to appeal verdicts not in their favor
-mandates that the government inform the accuser of the charges against him/her
-mandates that the police inform the accused of his/her rights
-allows the executive branch to commute, pardon, etc.

Does this sound like the Nazis to you?

Of course the people in the system can screw up, and of course some are corrupt. And the system itself is not perfect by any means. But to compare the system to that of the Nazis indicates either a lack of historical perspective or a simple emotional rant against the system without proof. Which is why we have yet to see such proof.

[H2O Man]

78. Again ....

if you are sincere in your interest in discussing or debating this issue, I will be happy to once you answer the simple questiuon that I asked.

[hiaasenrocks]

82. Are you even reading my posts?

I answered the question of how the US justice system differs from Nazi genocide. It's in my previous post, and everyone here can see it.

You're dodging. And, in this discussion as well as the one you are having right above it, you are not providing any evidence of anything you're saying. It's all emotional supposition and empty rhetoric. Just like the Nazi statement that you are unwilling to defend.

Please defend your statement. This is getting tiresome.

And, while you're at it, please also tell us why you claim that I have "surpreme faith" in the US justice system. I'm still waiting for that proof.

[KC_25]

87. No, I do think that he is...

and I think that he fails to see the difference in system that is imperfect, and one that set out erase an entire people from existence.

[hiaasenrocks]

96. Maybe he will explain his position.

He has yet to do so. As you pointed out, there is a huge difference between an imperfect system and one that is set up with the express purpose of exterminating people with no due process. You'd think that would be obvious to everyone, but...oh well.

I have to leave soon, but maybe when I get back later this evening, there will be a full and complete explanation here, along with historical and legal facts to back it up. We'll see.

[H2O Man]

93. I have read your posts.

I am sorry if you find it tiresome. I do think that you are intelligent, though that your thinking has been twisted by anger and bitterness. I think this, because you are attempting to twist away from answering the same question that I have asked you: how does the conviction of an innocent person in the USA differ from the conviction of an innocent person in Nazi Germany? You have refused to answer that, though you have circled with such care around it that it is only possible that you are consciously choosing to NOT answer it.

It's funny. On two other threads, regarding the Dean statementy on the war, I've quoted both Martin Luther King, Jr and Robert Kennedy. I've picked parts of their anti-war presentations from 1967-68. In the case of both men, they compared what the USA was doing in Vietnam, to what the Nazis did. Perhaps you, like many in their day, find that offensive. I do not.

You and I live in different worlds. The experiences that form our outlooks are very different. As I have noted, I have had family and friends murdered and assaulted by the most vicious of thugs. I have struggled to not hate, and I fully understand how and why others do.

I have also seen people convicted for crimes they did not commit. I have seen cases where, without question, racial hatred has caused police and prosecutors to violate the laws they are supposed to uphold. I think that it takes a mind that refuses to examine the horror of incarceration, much less execution, in the same light here as in Germany or China or any other country. Suffering is suffering, injustice is injustice.

I am able to say that the US system is the best on the planet, and yet recognize that it has the exact same negative potential as any and all others.

[hiaasenrocks]

108. Before I have to get going....

I'll take a stab at a few of your points. However, I still would like to see some proof of your claim that I have "supreme faith" in the US justice system. How many times do I have to ask before you will provide evidence or retract that baseless comment?

You also accuse me of being bitter and angry. Another straw-man personal attack that you can't back up.

You say, "how does the conviction of an innocent person in the USA differ from the conviction of an innocent person in Nazi Germany?"

I have answered this, over and over. Please refer to my earlier post in which I listed the attributes of the US justice system that were NOT afforded to the victims of Nazi genocide. You really can't see this? You can keep accusing me of not answering you, but I have answered you, and everyone can see my posts in which those answers were provided.

Again, no one is denying that the system is imperfect. I would challenge you to find a post where I, or anyone, said that. The debate here is about the system, and your comparison of the US justice system to that of the Nazis. Aside from all the other obvious reasons that these two aren't comparable (which I stated earlier) there's also the little matter of the 1,000 executions in the US as a result of a deliberative legal system, versus the several million people killed as a result of Nazi war crimes. You really can't see the difference?

As I said before, I have to go now. But I will absolutely check in here later to see your responses. I hope this time you will address the questions I've asked at least five times now with no response from you. Thanks.

[H2O Man]

118. You again refuse

to answer the question I ask. You substitute your own, instead. Your doing this, and refusing to speak to the issue I raise, is exactly what causes me to view you as a person who has supreme faith in the system .... it's your inability to answer my simple question. Likewise, I believe that your thinking is twisted because rather than discuss this issue, you choose to insult and attempt to degrade other people for holding an opinion other than your own.

Again, I find you intelligent, but rigid. (This makes for a potentially better discussion than those who are just rigid.) But if you decide to actually answer my question, rather than continue to simply insist that you have, perhaps we can move forward. If not, that's okay, too.

[hiaasenrocks]

165. Same old non-response.

It's quite obvious at this point that you continue to avoid explaining how you compare the US justice system to Hitler/Nazis.

What's the problem?

This is YOUR assertion. Why do you expect people to answer you if you don't even explain what you're talking about, and if you won't justify your comments?

This is classic debate two-step. Assert something with no evidence or explanation, and when someone challenges you by asking for proof, demand that the challenger to explain how you're wrong. That's exactly what you're doing. And, frankly, I think it's kind of insulting to anyone reading this thread. You are asking them to accept YOUR assertion until I prove you wrong, even though you haven't offered any evidence of your assertion to begin with.

This is transparent. Just explain your position and back it up with something substantive, and I'll be glad to discuss this further.

[H2O Man]

189. The ball

is in your court.

[hiaasenrocks]

194. LOL.

This is getting ridiculous. Let's review:

You make a comparison between the US justice system and Nazi genocide.

I ask you to show evidence of the claim.

You ask me to tell you why a situation isn't like Nazi Germany's system.

This is what I've been saying all along. You haven't provided a shred of evidence for your position. You are expecting me (and others reading this thread) to accept your position because it hasn't been disproved. WTF kind of reasoning is that?

Please note: in an earlier post in this thread, I provided a list of the characteristics of the US justice system that are nothing like the system of the Nazis. You completely ignored that list. So I took a shot at getting this debate going, but you failed to engage.

All of what I'm saying is right here in this thread for all to see. In fact, you employ this same tactic in the exchange above with another poster. There's an obvious pattern here. You can't spin your way through this one.

This will be the last post from me on this topic until you can show that you are capable of debating in a reasonable fashion (i.e., if you make a claim, back it up before you ask people to prove you wrong.)

[H2O Man]

198. You are full of baloney.

After reading some of your comments on a related thread, I suspect that you are purposely twisting what has been said. But that fits your nature.

I had started by quoting Merton, regarding the manner in which people like Hitler take a rigid stance on the unforgivableness of sin. Those people look to inflict severe punishment on others. It is a character trait, which is just as possible to be found in Americans as it was in Nazis in Germany. Certainly, the government of Germany was taken over by the most twisted of individuals, who commited genocide on a level unmatched in western society.

However, there are some loose cannons here. Some have lynched blacks in the south; the sad fact is that the KKK was a social club for police and judges in the south, and while you may think that is distinct from the legal system, many people do not. In fact, the Kennedy administration had to send federal marshalls into the south, and use the Justice Department on occassions, because the government -- including the legal system -- was racist .... meaning that it denied justice to specific groups based upon race.

It is likely that you would not agree that other groups have had similar experiences in the context of relations with the American government, including the justice system. Numerous traditional Native Americans have used the example of Nazi Germany to illustrate their view of relations with the USA. I'm sure that a narrow-minded person can hear that and think it's just the Ward Churchills, but that is simply ignorance blinding them.

As I noted, in the years 1967-68, both the Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr, and Senator Robert Kennedy compared US actions in Vietnam to Nazi Germany. Again, narrow-minded and ignorant people found that as objectionable as you find my comparisons today. I take some pleasure in realizing that you are no more capable of understanding what I am saying than you would be in understanding King. I do not feel that I own the problem.

Numerous times, I have asked you to tell me how you think a person who is unjustly convicted and executed experiences it. Perhaps in your mind they are happy that at least it's just a minor problem with the justice system, rather than something systematic like the Nazis. But for whatever reason, you refuse to answer, and simply repeat the same inaccurate nonsense about your demands I explain how the US system is the same as the Nazis.

In fact, I had answered that question before you asked it, with the quotes by Gandhi, Merton, and Thomas Aquinas. I am grateful that you have been willing to give a concrete -- and I use the word "concrete" for good reason -- example of how hatred twists a person's mind.

[hiaasenrocks]

202. You want me to answer how a person

would feel if they experienced unfairness in the judicial system? I'm sure they would feel wronged, no doubt about it. And I suppose they might feel as though they're living in Nazi Germany, depending upon their understanding of history. For instance, if they mistook prosecutorial misconduct or a biased judge for, say, Nazi stormtroopers sent out to exterminate an entire race. Or perhaps, after a preliminary hearing, a trial, and years of appeals before various appellate courts, if that person felt as though they were being locked up for reasons of their religious heritage and preference, and if that person hadn't been properly educated about the history of Hitler's Germany, sure, they might feel that they were living under Nazi rule.

But, ultimately, wouldn't it be difficult for me to predict what this hypothetical person's reaction would be? I wouldn't know any more about their thoughts in that case than I would know about their preference for pizza toppings.

By the way, who are we talking about here? Which defendant did you have in mind? Perhaps we can get somewhere with a little precision. Let's examine a specific case. You choose one, post the link, I'll read about it, and we'll go from there.

Again, lest anyone (ahem!) misunderstands me, I will tell you that the US justice system is not perfect. I don't know how many times I've said that but I'll say it again. The US justice system is imperfect. Now I've said it twice in this post. Maybe you'll remember it next time. And maybe you will remember it the next time you feel the need to create a straw-man argument about my having "supreme faith" in the system. I never said that, and I never even implied it. Please stop lying.

Speaking of straw-men arguments, you're doing it again in this thread. ("It is likely that you would not agree...") What's the problem here? Are you incapable of having a discussion based on what people actually say rather than what you think they are saying? That's cheap, and frankly it's a deliberate lie on your part.

Can you elaborate on your statement about hate twisting a person's mind? Who or what do I hate? Or is this just a buzzword you like to throw around to smear someone in a debate? Like the buzzword "Nazi" I guess. That word actually means something, you know. And it's pretty sick to see people with an agenda throw that word around, weakening the horrible negative power of it, and cheapening the memory of the millions of people who died at the hands of the Nazis.

Your post is full of these baseless personal comments and smears. The post below will expose you as a hypocrite.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5464497#5474206

P.S. Who is that in the pic?

[AussieDave]

207. Isn't the guy in the pic Rubin "Hurricane" Carter ??

I guess taken in his prison cell.

[hiaasenrocks]

208. I have no idea.

I just thought that picture looked familiar and was curious who it is.

[Ekirh]

211. I always thought

It was Ali.

[H2O Man]

219. Thank you for finally answering

a simple question. As today is the 25th anniversary of John Lennon's death, I'll paraphrase something he said a number of times. John used to say that we all have a Jesus potential, and a Hitler potential. Now, a person with a rigid, concrete manner of thinking might be offended by that. They might view Jesus as something so holy that he should only be on a stained glass window. Or they might view Hitler as so evil, that it is wrong to mention him in connection with any other person. That does not mean the person who holds those beliefs is stupid: many intelligent people are simply incapable of viewing one or both of these men in the context of human potential. Yet Lennon was absolutely correct in what he said.

Many people, including you, are convinced that what occured in Nazi Germany is separate and distinct from any and all other human experience. That viewpoint results in the holder finding it absurd to compare anything else to the victims of the Nazis. While I recognize they have the right to that view, I am aware that it is inaccurate. One need to look no farther than Cambodia to see something similar. Quite a few Russians died in the WW2 era, too. And the experiences of Africans and Native Americans, while obviously not exact, can accurately be compared as a part of world history. From my point of view, it cheapens the experience of the victims of Nazism to take it out of the context of human history.

I used the word concrete because from my perspective, you interprete history and view today's world in very concrete terms. That should not be taken as an insult, as you appear to take great pride in your opinions and beliefs. More, in my line of work (before retiring), "concrete" is merely a description of the nature of some people's thought processes, not a value judgement.

In one of my posts on another of these threads, I spoke about the role redemption plays in the Haudenosaunee culture. Central to the traditional belief system is the role of a man who lived 1800 years ago, known to us as the Tadodaho. His mind was twisted by hatred, so much so that his hair was as snakes. That is symbolic, of course, and I trust you will not be offended by the use of that imagery, because people do not have snakes for hair. The reason we know his mind was twisted was because he found delight in the suffering and death of his enemies. That twisted thinking was common in the greater society at the time; blood feuds were a common result of people looking for revenge, and having the snake in their mind that made them hold to the idea that an enemies' death was cause for delight. It took two men, the PeaceMaker and Hianawatha, some 14 years to comb these snakes from the Tadodaho's hair. It is the story of redemption. Today, the Tadodaho is the "chief of chiefs" on the Grand Council.

I've read some of your posts on another thread about the Williams case. The people on that thread are not simply in favor of capital punishment, but plan to rejoice if this man is executed. I see that as evidence of a twisted mind in exactly the same way that the Tadodaho's mind was twisted. I see it as a result of people having been hurt by the violence of criminals. I understand it, and do not look at it as reason for me to hate or despise the person who has had their thinking twisted by pain. I think I've told you that I had an uncle murdered; a cousin murdered; a nephew viciously attacked by a racist hate gang (he was left for dead, and has physical disabilities that are a part of his daily life); and friends murdered, including a teen-aged girlfriend who was butchered by an animal with a chain-saw. I say that to say this: I understand the pain that violence against innocent people brings. I know first-hand what pain and hatred can do to a person's mind.

Finally, I have also noted several times that I find you to be intelligent. I would not waste my time conversing with you otherwise. I have no desire to change your opinion on capital punishment; it is what it is. But I do think that you might do well to recognize that there are many ways to view the world, including some that you might not be aware of.

[H2O Man]

223. Got quiet on me, Dog. n/t

[hiaasenrocks]

224. I would like to point out (again) that it is very

difficult to engage in a meaningful and informed discussion with someone who relentlessly attributes false beliefs to someone else. I have, in several previous posts, cited numerous examples in which you employ this debate tactic. You not only decline to comment on these examples, you refuse to retract them.

In your latest post you say, "Many people, including you, are convinced that what occured in Nazi Germany is separate and distinct from any and all other human experience."

I will not even ask you where you got that from. Previous attempts to get you to explain these straw-men have resulted in silence from you. Therefore, I will simply explain, for the benefit of the fair-minded who may be reading this thread, that I do not believe that to be the case.

Here are some examples in which Nazi Germany is not "separate and distinct from any and all other human experience."

Stalin, Pol Pot, Ante Gotovina, the twenty-five or so people convicted by the ICTR for genocide in Rwanda, Mao's genocide of up to 60 million Chinese people, events in Sudan....

I'll stop there. That's quite enough to show that I do not hold the belief you falsely accuse me of holding.

Considering your obvious inability to discuss/debate this fairly, without lying, I think this will do it for me in this thread.

[H2O Man]

226. Dog, you are funny.

I haven't told any "lies." I think you are uncomfortable that I'm telling the truth. But if you want to back out of a discussion, that's fine. Be good.

[hiaasenrocks]

228. Well, just for fun...

Back up this statement you made: "Many people, including you, are convinced that what occured in Nazi Germany is separate and distinct from any and all other human experience."

With actual evidence of my belief. Not something you made up.

I'm not backing out because there's nothing to discuss here. What's the use in talking to someone who makes up stuff during a discussion? Why should anyone trust what you say? What good is it to talk to someone who demands "Answer my question" when he doesn't answer any himself? Any fair-minded person can see that's what you're doing.

So let's see some evidence. Back it up, "dog." Yo. LOL

And maybe you could even enlighten us all as to how this Hitler/Nazi claim is relevant to the Tookie Williams case. We still haven't even seen your reason for posting that in one of these threads. Is there any verifiable evidence for us to believe this defendant didn't get a fair trial? Maybe, unlike the others who are supporting clemency, you could offer some reason for your statement.

[H2O Man]

229. Sure, Dog.

202 pg 1.

[hiaasenrocks]

230. Could you please post the

exact quote(s) that would lead a rational person to believe that I am "convinced that what occured in Nazi Germany is separate and distinct from any and all other human experience."

[H2O Man]

232. You already did.

Thanks for that. Perhaps you think that it has happened in other places, far distant from this land? Is it a matter of numbers? Intent? What is your measure?

Also, what do you think makes it where you take delight in the execution of another human being? I ask because while I do understand that rational people can be in favor of capital punishment, I do not believe a rational person can take delight in it. Yet on another thread, you clearly expressed delight in the chance that he will be executed.

[hiaasenrocks]

233. I see.

You won't post the exact quote of mine that backs up the comment I was asking about. Shocker. Instead, you start asking more questions of me, while you have yet to answer the ones I asked of you in so many other posts. What's new? And then you move on to yet another reference to what I have "expressed" without posting it. Same old stuff. What a waste of time this has been.

[Dorian Gray]

139. H2O man....

You can't compare an innocent conviction in the USA to that of Nazi Germany. For one thing, for a "CONVICTION" to happen in Nazi Germany, there would have been a trial of some sort. There were no trials for the Jews. They were not convicted. They were rounded up and executed, not for their crimes, but for their DNA.

A conviction for an innocent American in our justice system would still have had the benefit of a trial. It's horrible. It's wrong. But, it has nothing to do with Tookie. Only the extremely gullible are holding on to Tookie's "innocence." But, he did kill people, and he's guilty of the crime.

I've happily added my voice to those who asked for his clemency. Why? Not because I believe in his innocence. I believe in our country's ability to punish criminals without the death penalty, however. For many reasons. Innocence in the crime actually comes into play far less than you would imagine.

But, your arguments regarding our court system in comparison to Nazi Germany's are not making people like me, who lean toward ridding our nation of the DP but want harsh sentences for the guilty, sympathetic to your debate position.

[H2O Man]

146. If you read closer,

I would hope that you would see that I am comparing the experience of the wrongly convicted in the US to the experience of the wrongly convicted in Nazi Germany. That is a valid comparison: I would hope that you would agree that an innocent person, executed in a US prison, is going to feel the exact same range of emotions as a person executed in Germany.

Further, I think that the historic experience of minorities within the US justice system contain the exact same horrors as happened on a larger scale in Germany.

It is fine if people think differently than me. I am not attempting to tailor my views to meet anyone else's beliefs.

[Dorian Gray]

149. I don't expect you to.

Personally, I feel like that is a flawed analogy. As I said, I am opposed to DP. I think it is morally wrong that our country still allows for it when we have the capabilities to properly punish someone for their crimes.

I do also believe that there is due process here. It is flawed, but it in no way compares to the systematic rounding up of Jews in Nazi Germany/Poland/Czechoslavakia/elsewhere. I'm just stating my opinion in that's where you lose me with your argument. Otherwise... I'm right there with you, calling for clemency in this case. Not releasing Tookie, but taking the DP off the table.

[H2O Man]

151. I had also quoted Thomas Merton

who noted that "It is no accident that Hitler firmly believed in the unforgivableness of sin. This is indeed fundamental to the whole mentality of Nazism, with its avidity for final solutions and its concern that all uncertainties be eliminated. Hitler's world was built on the central dogma of the irreversibility of evil. ..." (Merton; Gandhi on Non-Violence; pg 12)

It should be possible for rational people to discuss the similarities between the firm belief in the unforgivableness of sin in our system, and in the German system, without there being an immediate reaction demanding that there are no similarities, and my suggesting that Merton's thoughts might be of value in this discusion are simply wrong.

Comparing the emotional processes involved in the suffering of those who have been wrongly convicted, and indeed examining the ideas common in those who believe in having governments kill people, is an exercise that should be recognized as distinct from the more simplistic "our system is in no way like the Nazis."

It is funny, on a side note, that in my years of employment, many of my co-workers thought I was harsh in my belief that people should have consequences for their actions. It is worth noting that I have not said that Mr. Williams should go free. I am opposed to the death penalty.

[Dorian Gray]

234. I am happy to hear that

you do not believe that Mr. Williams should go free. Nor do I. The rest of the discussion about wrongful convictions (whether in the USA or the "non-convictions" of the rounded up Jews in Germany) is then only about the psychology of suffering for those who did nothing wrong. That has little to do with Mr. William's case, then, if you believe that he was not wrongfully convicted.

And, on that note, I will say once again that I've added my voice to the requests for clemency. I still believe that using the Nazi comparison minimizes the true nature of the DP issue. Wrongful convictions v. genocide are both very traumatic, of course, but that's where the similarity ends between the two.

[Ladyhawk]

50. What you post here is true. After reading about Tookie's trial,

I decided he was guilty. The only thing I have mixed feelings about is the death penalty itself. I wish that those supporting Tookie would at least acknowledge that some of the information they have spread was wrong or questionable. It looks very suspicious, otherwise. I admit I was taken in by some of it.

The debate should long ago have progressed to "Should the Death Penalty Ever be Used?"

I've posted about my correctional officer brother and his experiences working death row as well as my own family experiences. I've expressed my mixed feelings about the death penalty.

I have to admit I'm more than a bit angry both at those who posted misinformation and at myself for not looking into it a bit further. At first, I thought Tookie might be genuinely innocent, but even the briefest of looks at the facts shows it's highly unlikely he is innocent.

This case should be decided on the appropriateness of the death penalty alone, especially if certain folks refuse to respond to what seem to be the facts of this case. At first I was gung-ho to sign petitions, now I'm back to feeling my usual death penalty ambivalence.

If any of you deliberately spread false information or refused to engage in debate about pro-Tookie "facts," shame on you! You've muddied the waters of the debate on this very important issue which has made it harder for fence-sitters like me to come to an informed conclusion.

[hiaasenrocks]

67. Outstanding post. Thanks.

The leaders of the misinformation campaign here in DU know exactly who they are. They refuse to debate, and one of them even put people on ignore if they disagreed with her, rather than debate her detractors. Very telling.

I completely respect your position on the DP. I am for it, but I recognize the fact that others have moral objections to it. That's fine. I just get sick of the people who lie about this particular case.

Thanks again for your post.

[nofurylike]

97. thank you for posting, Ladyhawk. you wrote, "This case should be

"decided on the appropriateness of the death penalty alone."

i agree.

the problem arose when, on the first thread saying exactly that, so many came along saying executions should be decided on the appropriateness of the death penalty alone, that they disapprove of the DP...EXCEPT for Mr Williams;

or that they approve execution and Mr Williams must die.

that is when we began to make the case that his case does, in FACT, present enough doubts to warrant stopping that execution, on any of those terms.

thank you

[KC_25]

107. I approve of the death penalty.

I do not however think that it is always appropriate. In this case it is. Let the punishment fit the crime(s).

[Kingshakabobo]

31. Why do you keep calling this "debate"???

It's reached spam levels. Especially since you debate no-one. All you do is praise people who agree with you and repeat the mantra "listen to the interview" to anyone who doesn't agree with you. Note: I'm not the post police but, in the interest of intellectual honesty, you should probably change the title of your posts. JMHO.

I listened to the interview and I didn't hear much other than some innuendo by a physician claiming that lethal injection is inhumane and "probably" painful. The barbaric nature of the DP aside (I'm anti DP), I find it hard to believe that pumping 5000 milligrams of that anesthesia in to someones veins causes any pain when the normal dose is 500 milligrams. Lethal injection is probably anything but painful. I have no respect for "liars for jesus" (see: anti-abortion people) any more than "liars for anti-DP."

Clearly, the doctor in the interview had an agenda and was twisting his science around his agenda. Worse, than that, his suggestion that witnesses and/or reporters try to track-down the physicians that participate in the procedures pissed me off. I was reminded of the anti-abortion people that target clinic doctors for "embarrassment" or worse. At the very least, he sounded like he wanted to go after doctor's licenses. Of course, when questioned by a caller he denied it but that's not how he sounded. He speaks with forked tongue.

I plan on listening to the interview again since I felt I missed something after all the hype. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Ladyhawk]

52. Spot-on. The OP's refusal to debate or look at facts has soured

me on this issue. I was misinformed and thought for awhile Tookie might be innocent. After reading about his trial, I very much doubt this man is innocent. The "debate" should have been on whether or not the death penalty should ever be used.

The OP's posting of disingenuous information along with the refusal to engage in debate has muddied the issue.

[Texasgal]

63. Exactamundo Ladyhawk!!

This is what I have been sqwaking about since these spammed threads first appeared!

Not only that, but the OP refuses to "Debate" in these threads, she consistantly posts the wrong information and then prasies people who side with her.

Debate about the DEATH PENALTY, not freakin' Tookie!! If people want us to understand their stance on the DP issue, using Tookie to get their point across is a poor way to do it!

Right on! Ladyhawk! Great post!

[Fescue4u]

147. ding ding ding

we have a winner

[nofurylike]

56. people are debating here. thank you for listening to the interview and

espressing your response to it. i understand your concerns.

thank you, also, for giving it a second hearing.

the pain of that method of killing is established and documented. there are "cruel and unusual punishment" cases about that. our society has laws about that for many reasons. though now that people are saying that torture is okay as long as it is for their own causes (versus when done to our own beloved troops, which they unwittingly open the door to) maybe "cruel and unusual" will only matter when people personally feel any sympathy for the killed.

is that okay?

as one who opposes the DP, will you please consider expressing your opposition to the governor?

Phone: [phone]

Email: [email protected]

FAX: [phone]

snail mail address:
Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger
State Capitol Building
Sacramento, CA 95814


thank you!

[Aretha]

60. Thank you for the contact information

I will be certain to use it.

[KC_25]

61. The pain of that method is not

established and documented, the guest on the interview said himself "since they are given a paralytic agent there is no way to know if they are in pain, because they have no way to communicate it"

It is not a drug you can give someone and say, blink twice if it hurts, once if not..

If you want to know if it causes pain?
Give tookie the drug without the paralytic. Let that be another public service that he provides.

[nofurylike]

132. that is only from the point of being given the paralytic agent, on. i

apologize for taking a turn in this, again. i should not have replied to that aspect of this.

we might discuss that aspect of this another time, should you want that.

i can not change the subject from the one at hand: that all executions, including, equally, Mr Williams', must be stopped, and the death penalty must be abolished.

the doctor you refer to, from the interview, is describing a process that is simply the fact of the matter. perhaps you have sources that dispute what he says about the process?


thank you

[Walt Starr]

145. In the future on these thread I think my response will be

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[Ekirh]

150. Woah,

to take a non-serious tone in this thread just real quickly . . . I'm having memories of Monty Python.


Okay you may now go back on topic.

[Aretha]

152. That's ok

It's not really a serious thread. If it were, the OP would actually debate the issue and respond to people who disagree with him/her in a constructive way.

[Wind Dancer]

183. Aretha, welcome to DU!

It's a very serious thread! There are strong feelings on both sides but you are wrong to think the murder of any person isn't serious.

If you're interested in reading more on the reasons we oppose the DP, I highly recommend this site:

http://www.nodeathpenalty.org/fiveRs.html

[yurbud]

34. FOR Arnold being screwed either way

If he grants clemency, he will alienate right wingers who want blood, especially when it's the BLACK founder of the Crips.

If he doesn't grant clemency, it will alienate more of the independent and left voters he needs to woo to keep his job in 2006.

Either way he is screwed.

[yurbud]

35. Only ONE good argument for the death penalty over life without parole:

If you give someone life without parole instead of death, what do you do if they kill another inmate or guard in prison, take away their dessert?

With someone like Tookie, this is not a problem. He is not a threat to anyone else in prison, and is arguably making a contribution to society while there.

Let him live.

[hiaasenrocks]

39. How do we know that he isn't a threat anymore?

Some points to consider.

First, he has to this day refused to disclose information about the Crips, the gang he started. Why won't he debrief the authorities on them?

Second, how do we know he has really changed after this:

source: http://www.lacountyda.org/pdf/swilliams.pdf

V.
CONSPIRACY TO ESCAPE FROM CUSTODY
In April, 1979, George Oglesby and Stanley Williams were housed together at the Los
Angeles County Jail. During that time, Williams approached Oglesby with an escape plan.
(TT 2398-2399). Initially, Williams asked Oglesby where Williams would be housed if he was
found to be insane. (TT 2398-2399). Oglesby told Williams that he (Williams) would either go
to Atascadero or Patton. Williams asked Oglesby if he had any knowledge about those
institutions. When Oglesby told Williams that he did have some knowledge about those
institutions, Williams began to inquire about his chances of escape. (TT 2399). Oglesby told
Williams that his chance of escaping from either institution was very poor. (TT 2399).

Later, Williams asked Oglesby if he wanted to participate in a foolproof escape plan.
Oglesby indicated he wanted to be included in the escape. (TT 2399). In later conversations,
Williams told Oglesby that he believed “the weak link” in the entire jail system was when
inmates were transported between jail and the courthouse. Williams told Oglesby that he could escape from custody while being transported to court. (TT 2399). Williams drew Oglesby a detailed diagram of the area surrounding the Torrance Courthouse and the path of travel the jail transportation bus took as it approached the courthouse to deliver inmates to court. This diagram was received as trial exhibit 73. (TT 2399-2400).


Trial Exhibit 73

According to Williams’ escape plan, two people from the outside would assist in the
plan. (TT 2400). These two people, who would be armed, would disarm and kill the first deputy to exit the bus. (TT 2400). Stanley Williams would then murder Alfred Coward
(“Blackie”) so as to eliminate the witness against him. Williams would also murder the other
deputy on the bus. (TT 2400-2401). Lastly, Williams planned on blowing up the bus and its
occupants with dynamite, in order to prevent the authorities from quickly discovering who had escaped. (TT 2403).

In a note, Williams wrote that a female had obtained a brand new shotgun for him. (TT
2402). This note was introduced at trial as exhibit 74.


Trial Exhibit 74

In another note written by Williams and given to Oglesby, Williams explained that he
now had dynamite and that the escape would thus happen much sooner than previously discussed. (TT 2403). This note was introduced as exhibit 75. Williams also wrote a note in
which he asked Oglesby if they should delay the escape until his (Williams’) brother was
released from jail so that his brother could assist in the escape. (TT 2404). This note was
introduced as exhibit 76. In still another note, Williams asked if they should escape at the next court appearance scheduled in three weeks, or try to be transferred to the jail hospital and
escape from there. (TT 2421). This note was introduced as exhibit 77.

In another note, Williams explained that Alfred Coward (“Blackie”) was a “heartbeat
away from death.” Williams told Oglesby that he was going to murder “Blackie” because
“Blackie” was a witness against him. (TT 2422). In this same note, Williams asked Oglesby
about “the weapons.” This note was introduced as exhibit 78 (left side). Lastly, Williams
wrote that his female accomplice had the new pump shotgun and that he (Williams) hoped that
Oglesby’s “woman has all the other weapons with the silencers.” (TT 2423). This note also
included specific instructions regarding the time of the escape, the day of the escape, the
location of the jail transport bus, and the number of deputies. This note was introduced as
exhibit 78 (right side).

VI.
STANLEY WILLIAMS’ TRIAL BEHAVIOR AND THREATS TO JURORS
On January 21, 1980, Stanley Williams, through his attorney Gerry Lenoir, made it clear
that he wished to replace Mr. Lenoir with his hand-picked attorney of choice, Joe Ingber. In
fact, Williams personally asked the trial judge for a continuance so that he could arrange for the hiring of Mr. Ingber. Williams, in addressing the court, stated, “Well, see, excuse me, your Honor. I’d like to move for a continuance at this time because the attorney of my choice, he’s at this moment downtown fighting a murder trial.” (TT A55-A56).

In response, the trial judge indicated that the next court date was months away, and that
if Williams wished to employ Mr. Ingber, the court would allow Williams to “change counsel.”
(TT A56). At the next court appearance, on April 18, 1980, that is exactly what transpired.
Stanley Williams asked that Gerry Lenoir be substituted out and that Joe Ingber be substituted in on his behalf. When the court asked Williams if that was his desire, Williams responded affirmatively. (TT A58). The court then granted Williams’ request, and Joe Ingber became the attorney of record. During the subsequent trial, Stanley Williams was represented by both Joe Ingber and his associate, Steven Ehrlich.

On March 13, 1981, the jury reached guilty verdicts on all counts, and found all the special allegations true. After the verdicts were read in open court, Williams spoke out to the jury, calling them “sons of bitches.” (TT 2886-U). He was later asked, outside the presence of the jury, if he would like to take advantage of his Constitutional right to testify in his own defense at the penalty phase (a right Williams chose not to take advantage of during the guilt phase). Williams’ response to this question was “hell no.” (TT 2988). Moreover, despite the trial judge urging Williams to present mitigating evidence during the penalty phase, Williams indicated he did not want to call any witnesses and did not want to present any evidence in mitigation. (TT 2988-2989, 2996). The following discussion was had among the trial judge, defense counsel, and Stanley Williams (TT 2996-2997):

INGBER: It’s the defendant’s desire that no one testify in his behalf in
this phase; and I acquiesce to the desires of the defendant. So
there will be no testimony called in this phase of the trial.

JUDGE: I would strongly urge that if there is any mitigating evidence,
and if it can be presented, that you would be inclined to do
that. But, of course, I realize the decision is yours. Are we to
proceed?

INGBER: Yes, Your Honor.

The court then turned to Williams and urged him to put on whatever mitigating evidence he
had.

JUDGE: Well, let me indicate, Mr. Williams, that I would strongly urge that if you have any testimony in mitigation that that be presented at this time. I realize the final decision has to be arrived at with you on the advice of counsel; and I suppose as to those matters counsel has the last word as to whether other mitigating evidence should be presented. So I want you to be aware that I’m recommending that you present any, if you have any. Have you had enough time, Mr. Williams, to discuss this matter with your lawyer?

WILLIAMS: (No response).

JUDGE: The record should reflect that the defendant remained mute in response to that inquiry.

It was subsequently discovered that the defendant threatened the jurors after the guilty
verdict was read. Specifically, the defendant looked at the jurors and said he “was going to get
all” of them. (TT 3072). After learning of this threat, the trial judge inquired of the jury
foreperson. The foreperson confirmed the defendant mouthed the words “I’m going to get each
and every one of you mother fuckers.” (TT 3078). The foreperson further confirmed that this
threat did not play any part in the deliberations and was, in fact, not discussed during the
penalty phase of the trial. (TT 3078).

[yurbud]

43. that was 25 years ago, but the evidence is useful.

If he had done anything while in prison, particularly recently, that would have bearing on my point.

I do think he should be kept in prison if the charges against him are true.

[hiaasenrocks]

47. The last part of that information was

25 years ago, true. But that's the point. How do we know he has changed? That's why I brought up the fact that to this day he still refuses to brief authorities on gang activity. There are some prison officials who say he may have been communicating with gang members as recently as 1995. Can we really be sure he is not a threat to anyone? How sure are you?

[yurbud]

65. good points. Has he given any explanation for not briefing?

[indie_voter]

74. Yes, to Ed Bradley of 60 minutes

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/21/60minutes/main618963.shtml

Williams told Bradley that he doesn’t have anything to give. He has no current information about the Crips, and even if he did, he says it would violate his code of honor to be debriefed: “I have to say that the word ‘debriefing’ is a euphemistic term for snitching. And my convictions won’t allow that.”

Crittendon's response:

Crittendon disagrees. “We need to have role models, particularly in our African-American communities. And a role model that says, ‘I don't snitch on gang members. I don't care how violent or what acts they carry out,’ I think is the wrong message, because gangs are running rabid through our communities,” he says. “Young people out there killing one another and they're buying into the same code of silence that Stanley Williams is sharing with you today.”

[yurbud]

79. I'm not a fan of that "don't snitch" crap

[indie_voter]

77. The authorities have asked him repeatedly

“By him being himself involved in debriefing, it opens the door for others that are in the Crips gang to come forward and they will tell their stories,” says Crittendon. “But when they see their original godfather who stands tall in the face of, as they say, in the face of death, and he refuses to tell anything, then that makes that young 16-year-old that's out there with that weapon feel just as committed.” Williams has been in prison more than 20 years. What information could he have provided that would be of any value to law enforcements authorities who are investigating current gang activity?

“There's a great deal of contact that goes on between the outside community, and the inmates within these walls,” says Crittendon. “He can explain to us how they gain their money, how they set up their trafficking. He can explain how they have set up for the collection of weapons.”

more at

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/21/60minutes/main618963.shtml

[nofurylike]

153. thank you, yurbud. will you please connsider writing and calling the

governor, expressing that?

Phone: [phone]

Email: [email protected]

FAX: [phone]

snail mail address:
Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger
State Capitol Building
Sacramento, CA 95814


Please sign the petition for clemency
http://www.petitiononline.com/stw4804/petition.html

Another petition
http://www.petitionthem.com/?sect=detail&pet=2240

thank you!

peace

[KC_25]

38. Copy and paste from other thread, check out the link here

A nation of laws has consequences for
breaking them. A jury of 12 people, found Mr. Williams guilty, a verdict and sentence that has stood up over 25 years of debate, appeals and legal pleadings. To include the latest "must re-open" appeal to the California Supreme Court. If you disagree with the death penalty, then your time would better spent trying to get it thrown out in general, rather than trying to sway folks towards clemency for this man. In my opinion, this man is a monster. He has demonstrated no remorse whatsoever for these crimes. His Jail-house redemption again, in my opinion, is a sham. It is nothing more than a feeble attempt to get the mercy that he denied to 4 innocent people. He nearly wiped out an entire family for the sum of 600 dollars, and killed another man for just over 100 dollars, and then mocked and laughed at the man's last gasping breaths.
Will his death accomplish anything? Will it act as a deterrent? Will it bring the victims back? To the first two questions the answer is no, and to the last one it is a definite NO. But what it will do, is uphold the laws of the nation and state, that tried, convicted and sentenced the man to death. He has had due process, and 25 years to make amends, if he hasn't done so by now, he isn't going to.
I am not always for, or always against the death penalty, there are times when it is appropriate, and there times when it is not. This case is one of the times when it is appropriate.
Is it vengeance? Quite possibly, but as an imperfect human being, I admit that I am not above revenge. Executing this man in revenge for the four INNOCENTS that he murdered, is certainly a more valid reason than he had when he executed his victims. All without due process, all without clemency, and none were given the opportunity for redemption that he has had, and failed to take advantage of.
No, Mr. Williams, should not be given clemency. Pure and simple, the man should die, and deserves to. If he has truly found salvation, then that is between he and whatever god he subscribes to.

Argue the merits of the Death Penalty if you must, but do not present Mr. Williams as a victim, he is far from it.
You want to know more about Mr. Williams
read this site

http://www.knowgangs.com/blog/tookie.htm

KC

[Silverhair]

59. Outstanding link. Lots of information about gangs & Tookie there. NT

[Aretha]

40. I have read all nine of the threads that you started about Tookie Williams

And I must say, while I was pretty much on the fence about the death penalty in general and this case in particular, your efforts have swayed me.

[jim3775]

41. More PR flacking

Tookie has hired a publicist to spread disinformation.

This reminds me of this post at AMERICABLOG; Ford caught posting propaganda on AMERICAblog

[Aretha]

48. Jim, don't get me wrong

After reading the threads, taking a look at the evidence, reviewing what was said about the ballistic evidence, learning about the victims and how Williams slaughtered them and showed no remorse and learning that, to this day Williams has refused to either admit his guilt or show remorse I am convinced that he should be executed.

He should be executed for the four murders that he committed. He murdered four seperate futures. There are generations that will not exist because of what he did for a few bucks and, to a degree, his own sadistic gratification.

However, it should also be acknowledged that but for Williams Los Angeles would have been a safer, happier city over the past few decades. Less children would have been hooked on the drugs that his gang spread. Less innocent men, women and children would have been injured and killed in crossfire (or on purpose), fewer young boys would have had their lives destroyed and their futures stolen by his gang. Fewer women would have been raped and sexually assaulted or pushed into prostitution by the vicious thugs that he organized and led. There would be fewer shattered families and grieving parents/children/brothers/sisters/loved ones.

Nope. I was on the fence, but the propaganda that I have seen here on DU has convinced me. Tookie Williams did monstrous things, both before and after his conviction for four brutal, premedidated, cold blooded murders. If anyone deserves the death penalty, he certainly does.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sapphire Blue]

85. That is as silly as stating that George Washington is responsible for...

... the actions of george w bush, dick cheney, donald rumsfeld, et al, the invasion of Iraq, the torture @ Abu Ghraib & elsewhere, secret renditions, etc.

[hiaasenrocks]

92. If anyone still doubts that the above poster is

defending the actions of Tookie Williams in creating the Crips, the above post should be sufficient to erase all doubt.

Incredible.

[Aretha]

101. Wow

So you really think that the founder of a murderous gang bears no responsibility for the rapes, murders robberies and assaults that are subsequently committed by that gang? He bears no responsibility for what the gun running, illegal gambling, protection rackets, prostitution and drug running caused by the Crips has done to the communities that those activities have touched throughout this country? In your eyes he has as much responsibility for all of this as George Washington has for the actions of Bush & Cheney?

That's really your position?

[Ladyhawk]

53. Me too. I was against his execution. Now I'm ambivalent.

A lot of misinformation was posted.

[Aretha]

58. What I found most telling

Was the apparently valid (or at least unrefuted on DU) information posted by people who support the execution. All I heard before was how he was a good man who is doing all of these wonderful things for altruistic reasons. Now I know that the childrens' books that he has supposedly written has not been purchased or read by practically anyone and that he was still heavily involved in gang life and violent activity long after he entered prison. It seems that he started his reformation only as the date of his execution approached and his appeals ran out. I also understand that at some point he pretended to be mentally disabled as part of one of his appeals but suddenly got all better after that was rejected by the courts. I have no reason to believe that eh won't go back to being the thug that he was if he is no longer in danger of being executed or that his supporters, who have claimed that he is innocent, will not continue their pro-Tookie campaign, only now to get him released from prison (and, eventually, a governor might be elected who, after being lobbied by Tookie's celebrity supporters, will do just that).

Hopefully, this will all be over in a few days.

[Ladyhawk]

73. My brother knew Tookie on Death Row and he says Tookie was

involved in gang activity from prison. If you heard it from another source, that strengthens the probability that this bit of information is true. It also would explain how Tookie was able to so easily spread so much disinformation. As the leader of the Crips, he is still very powerful.

Word is that there will be riots in prisons and possibly on the streets of LA if/when Tookie is executed.

This whole thing has been a mess and I'm rather pissed off at those who spread misinformation and kept spreading it even when confronted. Of course, it probably wouldn't have killed me to look at the other side. Sigh. There are at least two sides to every story. Shame on Ladyhawk!

The debate should have stayed in the realm of whether or not the death penalty is ever a warranted punishment. Put me back up on the fence.

[indie_voter]

88. ....

It is wrong of me to bring in a discussion from a different forum without attribution.

Deleted!

[KC_25]

103. In all fairness this sounds

like urban legend stuff... and while it pertains to the value of his "redemption" and I am inclined to believe, it is really only hearsay. However, the official prison reports that damn him are something entirely different...

[indie_voter]

106. You're absolutely right, it is hearsay. n/t

[KC_25]

117. Sorry, I didn't mean it that way..

I just didnt want the tookie cookies to say that we are spreading unfounded rumors and such...

[indie_voter]

121. I understand, you're absolutely right.

I was in the wrong, which is why I deleted it. Without a link it is absolute hearsay. I don't want to send the OP trolls over to that forum so the right thing to do is to delete the anecdote.

It isn't really germaine to this discussion anyway! ;)

[Ladyhawk]

173. I have no idea what you deleted, but if it has to do with my brother,

it is definitely hearsay. My brother fancies himself a gang crime-fighter and would hardly have an unbiased opinion. Who knows what the truth is? If there were reports and had Tookie been tried for orchestrating gang activities and been convicted, then it would be a bit more substantial.

I am going to check out the URL indie_voter posted above. I'm curious to see an actual debate.

[indie_voter]

133. An interview with Crittendon (and others), spokesman for San Quentin

This is balanced, it quotes the Save Tookie people and they are allowed rebuttal.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10085975/

But Crittendon, who has worked at the prison nearly 30 years and regularly deals with Williams, said Williams has refused to formally renounce his gang membership and submit to “debriefing” — that is, inform on his old friends. Crittendon also cited Williams’ willingness to share an exercise yard with Crips and his unusually large prison bank account. And he said Williams’ younger son is a trouble-making Crips member in prison for murder.

....

In August 2004, a committee of prison officials noted Williams’ prior gang activity but said it had not seen any recent gang involvement, according to a report cited by Becnel. The committee commended Williams for his positive steps in the past 10 years.


In his book, Williams addressed nearly all of Crittendon’s accusations, saying that informing on gang members would “rip my dignity out of my chest,” that he gets along with everyone in the yard, and that his son is trying to change his ways.

As for his bank account, Crittendon said that while other high-profile inmates such as Scott Peterson usually get $10 or $20 checks, Williams receives checks for $500 or $1,000 at a time. Becnel said people who appreciate Williams’ work send him money.

[Ladyhawk]

171. Thank you for the link. I'll have to take a look. n/t

[Ladyhawk]

178. The article really didn't give me any new information,

except that the prison officials may be trying to discredit Tookie. That might be the case whether or not Tookie is guilty or whether or not he has changed his ways. As for the San Quentin authorities, I don't know them, but if they encouraged the kinds of things my brother did while working Death Row, I treat whatever they say as definite hearsay. They have an agenda.

So, really, I'm back where I started, wondering whether or not the death penalty is ever a warranted punishment. :shrug:

[KC_25]

46. If you are on the Fence, please do not read ONLY the Tookie two shoes..

Propaganda

http://www.knowgangs.com/blog/tookie.htm

[Aretha]

49. Please see post #48

Thanks.

[Endangered Specie]

80. ah geez not this shit, AGAIN!

?v=0

[Silverhair]

90. Yeah. It will keep on until Dec 13.

Then it will resurface a few days before the next sceduled execution with the claim that that one, also, is really innocent.

A few days ago the OP was claiming the Wesley Baker was innocent.

After Dec 13 they will be quiet for awhile until the next cause celebre.

[hiaasenrocks]

Why did they stop talking about Wesley Baker?

Could it be that she posted something about him to deflect attention away from us bringing up the fact that she is selective in her outrage, and it sufficed for one day, then she forgot about him?
:shrug:

[Silverhair]

100. Two reasons:

1. We posted extremely solid irrefutable evidence of his absolute guilt.

2. He's dead. Executed a couple of days ago. Last words were, "I'm sorry." spoken to his sister.

[Fescue4u]

120. ding ding ding

my thoughts exactly.

[Aretha]

91. And if he is granted clemency

I want the "Free Tookie" t-shirt and bumpersticker concession, because if his supporters and fans believe he is innocent, naturally, they will want him freed.

[KC_25]

105. I'll go in half on that with you

we would make a killing..(no pun intended)

[capitalistdemocrat]

94. What is it with this guy...?

What makes him so special?

:shrug:

[Aretha]

102. A good publicist

And a host of stupid celebrities.

[tammywammy]

104. He wrote a children's book

and he's been reformed.

Though, aren't almost all people facing execution "reformed." :shrug:

But he hasn't had any remorse for the killings and refuses to "snitch" on the inner-workings of the Crips.

I really don't think he's that special. I've read all these threads, and there's lots of mis-information being spread.

[KC_25]

109. Read this website

http://www.knowgangs.com/blog/tookie.htm

[tammywammy]

112. I read it earlier today

It's a very good link.

I'm not defending Tookie by any means. I'm ambivalent about the death penalty in general, but I won't lose any sleep over Tookie.

One important note, if Tookie is so reformed, why hasn't he given up his gang name?

[Fescue4u]

113. Well he sold 332 books

Although he must have forgot to give one to his own kids, since one serving a sentence for murder, and another was just arrested for aggravated rape.

[KC_25]

116. rape at gunpoint of a 13 y/o girl

no less...
flattering parenting skills.

Oh, wait... If he hadn't been framed he would have been there to teach his sons..right?

Pffft

[Texasgal]

115. Well...nothing is really special about him

He has hired a PR to help him save his neck, he has written a couple of books that have sold a whopping 400 copies.

He was the founder of the violent street gang the crips???

Bluntly put... he is NOT special at all. He is a CRIMINAL, nothing more, nothing less.

[Fescue4u]

111. Free Cookie Free Cookie

What could be better than a Free Cookie?

Thats why we must free Tookie, cause he's the next best thing.



(Yes, I am getting tired of the cheerleading for killers threads)

[Jed Dilligan]

124. Tookie is an idiot

Absolutely the wrong kind of person for the state to kill. This will inspire, not deter, future Tookies. Ken Lay on the other hand...

[KC_25]

126. What if he made TV ads that say

By the time that you see this ad, I will have been executed for the crime of murdering 4 people (he doesnt have to say that he committed it)... Youth of America, take head and learn from my example, a life of violence and gang banging will only put you in the same position as me. (fade to his gravestone). (tookie voice over) For your own future, get out, get away, stay away.

I bet that would catch the attention of the Kids RDQ.

[Jed Dilligan]

128. There's been shit like that forever.

Doesn't change the fact that death = glory in the culture of idiot gangsters. I know of a guy who shot HIMSELF to get gang glory (making it look like another gang did it).

[KC_25]

129. Jeebus...n/t

[slackmaster]

127. Not at all an idiot - He's a very clever con man

He's done a remarkable job of pulling the wool over some peoples' eyes.

[Jed Dilligan]

130. If there's any truth to the case against him

He was an idiot in '79, killing people just to be a big badass and bragging about it and using his own registered gun. Typical American idiot. He may be good at manipulating certain people's emotions, and somewhere he gets money for publicity, but that doesn't make him any less of an idiot than Bush.

[Sapphire Blue]

135. *** I want to sincerely thank everyone who has posted on these threads.

... especially those of you who have posted unkind remarks... about this cause in which I dearly believe, the man for whom I advocate, and, in some cases, remarks directed against me.

So many of you are quick to point out that Stan Tookie Williams co-founded the Crips, was/is a "thug", believe he is guilty of the murders for which he was convicted. So many of you are quick to deny the racist aspects of the trial, the racist application of the DP.

Yes, he was most assuredly a "thug".

Yes, he co-founded the Crips (in reaction to already existing gangs.)

Yes, he was convicted of killing four people.

Is he a "thug" today? I don't believe that he is. Others disagree w/me.

Is he active in the Crips today? I don't believe that he is. Others disagree w/me.

Did he commit the murders for which he was convicted? I don't know. Stan Tookie Williams is the only one who knows the true answer to that question. I believe his answer. Others disagree w/me.

Were there racist aspects in the trial, are there racist applications of the DP? I believe that the trial was tainted by racism. I believe that the DP is disproportionately applied to blacks. Others disagree w/me.

Throughout these threads, I have seen some exceptionally vile hatred, I have seen blood lust, I have seen a blind overwhelming desire for vengeance on behalf of the victims. My soul weeps for these four victims... and every other victim violent death... all victims of horror, all victims of tragedy... yet I don't advocate vengeance, I don't crave anyone's blood. Others disagree w/me.

What I wish to thank you for, dear fellow DUers, especially those who have been unkind in posting, is teaching me that I need to work on my own faults. I need to work on 'turning the other cheek'. I need to work on 'loving my enemy'. I need to work on 'forgiveness'. I need to learn to be merciful to everyone. Under all circumstances. Always.

With thanks to you all, I will strive to do those things.


In gratitude,

Sapphire Blue

[KC_25]

137. You keep telling us to listen to the interview and come back..

well, I did, and it was beautiful PR but not much meat to it...
so now, if you would, read this site and tell us what you think about that?


http://www.knowgangs.com/blog/tookie.htm

[Aretha]

138. Should Stan Williams go free?

In your opinion, based on what you know and believe, should he be permitted to walk out of San Quentin a free man and, if not, why not?

[KC_25]

140. now she gets to be the victim

and the world keeps on turning

[Aretha]

143. It's a funny "debate" thread

Where the people advocating the position to be debated (including the OP) absolutely refuse to engage in any actual debate whatsoever. Seems like porpaganda, not debate. Seems pretty disingenuous.

[Silverhair]

142. Some other things for you to work on:

Ability to do objective research. If we who are against your position have been able to find the materials that we have, in the short period of time that we have given to this, then you should have been able to find the same.

Honesty. Long after it was shown in posts that the jury was NOT all white, (There minorities) and that the black man was OBVIOUSLY black, you continued to post that the jury was all-white. Then you started posting that the black juror "had one drop" of black blood.

Logic and Critical thinking skills. Those would have kept you from being a Tookie groupie in the first place.

I can respect being opposed to the DP. I can not respect lying to make Tookie seem innocent, nor can I respect the "He's reformed" stance when the evidence is that he has not.

[jim3775]

144. I am really disgusted that people are painting a mass murderer

as the victim.

[stepnw1f]

213. mass murderer???

that's a stretch isn't it?

[Aretha]

222. How is that a stretch?

He personally murdered four people that we know of. His actions contributed to the deaths of countless others. In what alternate universe is someone who personally murders numerous people and contributes to the murders, rapes, etc. of countless others not a mass murderer?

[indie_voter]

155. The man was convicted for 4 brutal murders

http://www.lacountyda.org/pdf/swilliams.pdf

Yet he is painted as a victim on par with those he killed.

Some call him a peacemaker though he has done NOTHING to deserve this title.

As for his so-called reform, so he CO-wrote a few books, WOW.

It doesn't take much personal risk to write a couple books on the dangers of gangs when one sitting in prison with a lot of time on his hands.

How many PSAs/books have we seen from celebrities warning children about drugs, teen sex, nameyourvice, only to find out said celebrity was high, not a virgin, etc?

The words they say are meaningless if they aren't back by action.

Tookie refuses to give information about his gang, refuses to stop associating with them in the yard (why doesn't he ask the Warden to place him with different yard mates? ). This would send a strong message to the young people. How many kids would be inspired by such a noble stand? To see a man stand strong in the face of gang retribution?

He hasn't once expressed credible sympathy to the victims' family. Even if he (as he ridiculously claims) is innocent, where is the empathy?

It is all about him. His website says, given clemency, he will try to prove his innocence. He has enough Norman Mailer type supporters, that I wouldn't be surprised if he found a way to con himself out entirely.

Would we then have a repeat of the Jack Abbott debacle?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Abbott

As to the trial and race, the jury was NOT all white. There was a black person on the jury, there was at least another minority possibly even two more in addition to the black man.

The majority of the 9th circuit, NOT a conservative body by any means, ruled against him.

I've seen accusations of racism leveled against those who don't support this cause, accusations of blood lust, accusations of hate. These are extremely personal attacks against those who disagree with the campaign to canonize Tookie Williams.

Anti-DP people have a very strong argument. The DP as it stands now is not fair. Does it mean it can't be made fair? I don't know. Are there extreme cases which warrant the DP? I think there are.

This should be the real debate. Instead it is cheapened by this sickening revisionism with regards to Tookie's character.

Using Tookie Williams as the poster child for the anti-DP cause is not productive, especially when part of the strategy is to paint him as an innocent victim. The facts do NOT support the contention.

[Fescue4u]

156. Your Welcome....(OH WAIT!)

I forgot, you have me on ignore because we disagree.

Guess this was a wasted post for your "debate" thread.

[nofurylike]

162. thank you, Sapphire Blue. very generous-spirited of you.

peace

[stepnw1f]

227. BRAVO!!!! Well Put...

We share the same sentiment.

[Aretha]

136. The ironic thing

Is that if Williams had been free and on the streets, he likely would have been killed years ago, either by a rival gang or by his fellow Crips. Of course, he probably would have murdered more innocent, defenseless people before that happened.

I think that we can all agree that the world would have been a better, happier place if the very first person that Williams had pulled a gun on had managed to shoot him dead then and there.

[mvd]

141. Against the DP

So are most at DU and pretty much the rest of the industrialized world. I converted a DP supporter based on the industrialized world argument. I hope that clemency is granted. There is a lack of physical evidence pointing to Tookie. Tookie has made books and movies, but has also mentored. Black prospective jurors were struck for no reason other than race. While he should have made a full apology, he does regret that he ever got into the gang lifestyle.

I am not for lionizing Tookie - but I will e-mail. I don't have the time for all cases brought to DU though, as my efforts will be in vain for a likely murderer. We must change the system completely.

[nofurylike]

148. thank you for emailing, mvd. "We must change the system completely."eom

[mvd]

154. You're welcome!

:hi:

[nofurylike]

159. *

:hi:

[nofurylike]

157. New Yorkers Rally For Tookie Williams as Clemency Deadline Nears

New Yorkers Rally For Tookie Williams as Clemency Deadline Nears

12/07 | Poets, musicians, and political activists met at the National Black Theater of Harlem to rally for Tookie Williams.
By Stanley W. Rogouski

http://nyc.indymedia.org/en/2005/12/61491.shtml

Poets, musicians, and political activists met at the National Black Theater of Harlem on 125th Street to protest the coming execution of Stanley Tookie Williams, the founder of the Crips, writer, and nobel prize nominee.

More Coverage from LA Indymedia:
http://la.indymedia.org/

"Mr. Williams is a death row inmate at San Quentin who is scheduled to be executed on December 13th, unless Governor Schwarzenegger intervenes to commute his sentence to life without parole."

***

many beautiful photographs


peace!

[Aretha]

158. Still not interested in debating on your own "debate" thread, huh?

[Sapphire Blue]

160. The Rev. James Lawson speaks at the save Tookie Rally Dec 3 (audio link)

http://la.indymedia.org/news/2005/12/140553.php

(edited to add: Thank you, nofurylike, for the link that you posted, which in turn led me this link)

[nofurylike]

163. thank you for that link, Sapphire Blue! this is excellent!! i hope you all

will hear this!!

wow


peace and solidarity!

[hiaasenrocks]

174. Why are you pretending to be

surprised by this? ("wow")

You've made up your mind, even without reviewing the evidence. So is it any surprise that you believe this person? Whoever he is....

[Silverhair]

161. Just the usual bunch. "Poets, musicians, and political activists" NT

[Wind Dancer]

184. Let's start attacking poets, musicians and political activists.

I thought this was a progressive website.

[Silverhair]

188. Her headline was misleading.

She said "The People" implying the general person-in-the-street New Yorker - in other words she was implying mass support. Instead it was only activists - the same small crowd.

[hiaasenrocks]

192. Wow. I would have really liked to have been

present for their discussion of the trial evidence. And then, after that, I might stick around to attend their moment of silence for the four people who died in that robbery spree.

Gee, I'm sorry I couldn't be there.

[nofurylike]

164. in the words of the kind-spirited Sapphire Blue, i wish you Mercy

all

goodnight


Peace

[hiaasenrocks]

167. Yes, she is kind-spirited.

And look who she's kind-spirited towards. A four-time murderer and founder of a gang that has claimed the lives of many inner city youth. And who does she blame for this? The prosecutor. What a kind spirit she is.

[Aretha]

169. A frightening thought.

God help us all if Saddam Hussein ever decides to stary writing children's books ...

[Silverhair]

170. I bet they would sell more copies. NT

[hiaasenrocks]

182. Well, Saddam has written a few romance novels.

Do those count? :)

Pretty soon, Saddam will be sentenced to death. I'm not a supporter of the war in Iraq, but I couldn't care less what happens to Saddam Hussein at this point. But now I guess we wait for these people to start the same type of threads to stop the execution of Saddam. I wonder how long it will take them to say he wasn't guilty of some of the atrocities against his own people? Apparently, if you are convicted of a crime, some people have the default position that you're not guilty -- it's the prosecutor's fault.

This could get interesting.

[Silverhair]

187. Some DUers have already posted that he is the only legitmate...

...ruler of Iraq.

[hiaasenrocks]

191. He says the same thing.

Regardless of my opposition to the war in Iraq, I couldn't care less what he or anyone says about his place in history. Dead, alive, missing...I don't care.

[Silverhair]

193. They say it, he says it, for them that settles it. NT

[hiaasenrocks]

195. This sounds like another poster in this thread. (i.e. Nazi discussion)

Scroll up and read the exchange about the comparison between the US justice system and the Nazis.

The poster believes something, and expects others to believe it, just because he's saying it's true and because others haven't proved him wrong, even though he has offered not a shred of evidence for his belief.

Sometimes I wonder about peoples' logic. How do they survive at all?

[Silverhair]

168. Questions about "Tookie's" anti-gang work with youth.

The Tookie groupies have made many claims for him that have not stood up on close examination.

His children's books have been nonsellers. 332 copies according to BookScan.

His Nobel nominations were made to protest the DP. And almost anybody can a Nobel nomination. I am a seminary graduate (One of the largest in the world) and in a few months I will be teaching (Volunteer - unpaid) college courses in Bible. I could make a nomination. A Nobel nomination means exactly nothing.

His redemption is subject to question. He refuses to give evidence or information about the Crips or about crimes that he knows about. He says that his values don't allow him to snitch. Well those are criminal values, not redemption values.

So let's take a look at that so-called work with youth. He is in a maximum security prison. The most he can do is the occasional interview with a friendly interviewer, and record and occasional tape. He definately doesn't go out and talk to kids. So it is appropriate to ask: "What work with kids?" I don't think there is any.

[hiaasenrocks]

172. I was thinking about this earlier this afternoon.

I'm skeptical of the claims of the effectiveness of his anti-gang work because it seems to be an unprovable conclusion. "He's saving lives."

Well, how are they quantifying that? How many lives have been saved? How many of those saved lives were saved due to legitimate outreach programs, a good teacher, a strict parent or grandparent, a pastor, or someone else who touched the life of a young person? How exactly are they attributing a "saved life" to Tookie?

I haven't seen any evidence of any of this. I think this is an unfounded conclusion they are making, hoping someone will believe it and sign the petition, without asking for any information on it.

[jim3775]

176. Another thing to remember, his publicist is also the co-author of his book

This article says Barbara Cottman Becnel is his publicist, a quick look on amazon.com shows that she co-authored his books. The whole book thing is just for good PR.

[hiaasenrocks]

179. Yeah, I noticed that. At first I thought that fact might

shed some light on her involvement in the case and her insistence in this defendant's innocence. It may appear, at first glance, that she potentially has a financial motive in this. But that can't be true. This four-time murderer has sold only 332 books.

[Silverhair]

177. In an the first of these thread they were saying 150,000 kids saved, but

...I challenged that number and they quit using it. There is no way the 150,000 kids are going to voluntarily come forward and say that Tookie kept them out of a gang. Something had to be happening to urge the kids to say it, if indeed any said that.

[hiaasenrocks]

180. The problem we face is that

we can't expect them to elaborate on this. Every time we ask them to back up one of their claims, they refuse to provide evidence.

So maybe we'll never know. :shrug:

[Silverhair]

186. Fantastic claims REQUIRE fantasic proof.

The burden of proof is on them. I they can't document the claims, then we can discount them.

[hiaasenrocks]

190. Apparently they have no concept of that. n/t

[Silverhair]

205. MSNBC Poll, Clemency 66% No, 34%Yes, 20627 responses 10:45 PM CST

200+ Posts. Tommorrow is his lawyer's meeting with Arnie and tommorrow there will be another one of these threads. I will be watching the news on google to see what he says.

[hiaasenrocks]

206. The % breakdown appears to be

the same as it was 24 hours ago. Do you remember? I think that's correct....

[Endangered Specie]

209. I just read some of this...

http://www.knowgangs.com/blog/cooleytogov.pdf


Now Im beginning to think lethal injection is too good for him.
Break out the gas chamber for this one.

[Paradise]

210. Precisely, what do we, as a society, as individuals,

benefit,

when the death penalty is exacted?

Please do not respond, the question is rhetorical...

[nofurylike]

218. thank you, Paradise. peace! eom

[Silverhair]

221. MSNBC poll: Clemency NO 66%, YES 34% 21763 responses, 12:36 CST

Except for the increase in the number of responses, there has been no change in the last day. At the beginning, several days ago it was 70% NO 30% YES.