Regarding Gov. Dean's Comments (part two)

[H2O Man]

{1} "If Kennedy does not run in 1968, the best side of his character will die. He will kill it every time he butchers his conscience and makes a speech for Johnson next autumn. It will die every time a kid asks him, if he is so much against the Vietnam war, how come he is putting party above principle? It will die every time a stranger quotes his own words back to him on the value of courage."
-- Jack Newfield; The Village Voice; 12-28-1967

Earlier today, I posted a brief note on how a guest on the Fox morning news show had twisted Gov. Dean's comments on the war in Iraq into a message of "democrats like when US soldiers die." I think that is a sign of not just stupidity, but of a deeper emotional disturbance. Only one person, during a very brief stay on DU, expressed support for "ManCow," the guest on Fox.

Tonight Fox had Sean Hannity competing with "ManCow" for the right-wing mad cow disease attack award. I'm not particularly concerned with these fellows. Their appeal is limited. However, I do think it is important that democrats not sit by and let "centrist" voices in the party betray Dean's bravery. The truth is that Gov. Dean said what our senators and congressional leaders should have been saying for a couple years now.

I think it is worthwhile to look back at the reactions from 1967 and 1968, when two brave American leaders, Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. and Senator Robert F. Kennedy, spoke out against another war of occupation that the United States can not win.

{2} "Somehow this madness must cease. We must stop now. I speak as a child of God and brother to the suffering poor of Vietnam. I speak for those whose land is being laid waste, whose homes are being destroyed, whose culture is being subverted. I speak for the poor of America who are paying the double price of smashed hopes at home and death and corruption in Vietnam. I speak as a citizen of the world, for the world stands aghast at the path we have taken. I speak as an American to the leaders of my own nation. The great initiative in this war is ours. The initiative to stop it must be ours.

"This is the message of the great Buddhist leaders in Vietnam. Recently one of them wrote these words: 'Each day the war goes on the hatred increases in the heart of the Vietnamese and in the hearts of those of humanitarian instinct. The Americans are forcing even their friends into becoming their enemies. It is curious that the Americans, who calculate so carefully on the possibilities of military victory, do not realize that in the process they are incurring deep psychological and political defeat. The image of America will never again be the image of revolution, freedom, and democracy, but the image of violence and militarism.' ....

"I am convinced that if we are to get on the right side of the world revolution, we as a nation must undergo a radical revolution of values. We must rapidly begin the shift from a 'thing-oriented' society to a 'person-oriented' society. When machines and computers, profit motives and roperty rights are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, materialism, and militarism are incapable of being conquered."
-- Martin Luther King, Jr.; "A Time to Break Silence (Beyond Vietnam)"; April 4, 1967.

King's address to the Clergy and Laity Concerned at the Riverside Church in New York City is, in my opinion, the greatest American speech. He became the most influential civil rights activist to "cross over" and take up the anti-war cause. The first, of course, was heavyweight champion Muhammad Ali. Like Ali, King would face the wrath of Uncle Sam for telling the truth.

{3}"But in April, 1967, most of King's country supported the Vietnam War, and his address provoked a fusillade of abuse from all sides. ... Behind all the uproar, King and his advisers glimpsed the specter of Lyndon Johnson. ... Six days after Riverside, in fact, the President received an expanded edition of the FBI's dissertation on King and permitted Hoover to circulate it in and out of Washington."
-- Stephen Boates; "Let the Trumpet Sound"; pages 421-422.

The FBI claimed that Stanley Levison, suspected communist, wrote the Riverside speech for King, who they called "a traitor to his country and his race."

The Jewish War Veterans of America released a statement that said King was pandering to Ho Chi Minh.

A White House aide told reporters King's speech was "right down the Commie line."

Congressman Joe Waggonner ranted on Capital Hill about King's secret training at communist brain-washing camps.

Newsweek accused him of advocating "a race conscious minority dictat(ing) foreign policy."

Life said King was pushing "abject surrender in Vietnam."

The New York Times noted that civil rights and Vietnam were "distinct and separate," and mocked King's calls for peace.

Uncle Carl Rowan whined that King "delivered a one-sided broadside." Ralph Bunche, Whitney Young, Roy Wilkens, Jackie Robinson, and Senator Edward Brooke also viciously attacked King for speaking out on Vietnam.

{4} "Now we're saying we're going to fight there so that we don't have to fight in Thailand, so that we don't have to fight on the west coast of the United States, so that they won't come across the Rockies .... Maybe they don't want it, but we want it, so we're going in there and we're killing South Vietnamese, we're killing children, we're killing women, we're killing innocent people ... because they are 12,000 miles away and they might get to be 11,000 miles away.

"Do we have a right here in the United States to say we are going to kill tens of thousands, make millions of people, as we have ... refugees, kill women and children? .... I very seriously question whether we have that right ... Those of us whostay here in the United States, we must feel it when we use napalm, when a village is destroyed and civilians are killed. ...

"We love our country for what it can be and for the justice it stands for and what we're going to mean to the next generation. It is not just the land, it is not just the mountains, it is what the country stands for. And that is what I think is being seriously undermined in Vietnam."
-- Robert F. Kennedy; "Face the Nation"; 1968

{5} It was the anti-war movement that convinced RFK that he should join the race for the democratic nomination for president. It was the brave young people who were protesting LBJ's insane policies in Vietnam. It was the young black people who questioned why they should fight and die in the jungles of southeast Asia for "democratic rights" they were denied in every city in America. It was the pressure from the left-wing intellectuals who knew the anti-war movement needed Kennedy's assistance in bringing the message to the American public, about the ugly nature of that war.

The response of the administration and its attack dogs was about the same for Robert as it had been for Martin. Earlier today, one DUer claimed that individual bravery in speaking out against the war did end it. Bullshit. Not immediately, of course, but when men like King and Kennedy took their stand, LBJ knew he might lose the presidency. So he retired. Darker forces came in to play in April and June of 1968, but this country would have been much worse off if fear had silenced Martin and Robert and kept them from speaking out.


{6} " The lights begin to twinkle from the rocks:
The long day wanes: the slow moon climbs; the deep
Moans round with many voices. Come, my friends,
'Tis not too late to seek a newer world."
-- Alfred Tennyson; "Ulysses

Martn Luther King,Jr. and Robert F. Kennedy did not die so that Gov. Dean could be silenced when he attempts to tell the country the truth about the war in Iraq. Let's not listen to any "centrist" democrats who are peddling the same lies as "MadCow" and Sean Hannity, and let's not sit quietly while democratic officials support the Bush/Cheney policy in Iraq.

[emulatorloo]

1. kick and nominating -- Thanks for yr excellent post n/t

:patriot:

[Gregorian]

2. Repitition.

It's both hopeful and frustrating at the same time. Some of those statements are right out of present day propaganda play books.

I will have to read your post again. There's a lot there.

Also, if I recall, King even mentioned the big oil companies in his speech. It was amazingly prophetic.

Thank you.

[IChing]

3. great post, I love "the War is Over if you want " billboard

from the John and Yoko tour at that time. thanks

[mitchtv]

7. Time for Yoko

to bring it back

[madfloridian]

4. This and part one are much appreciated. I remember Vietnam.

I remember my friends whose fiancees and husbands were MIA or POW. Most never knew which, most got the word they were dead. 54,000 is hell of a lot of brave men to have died for what most think was another lie.

They will not be easy toward those who speak out. Too much is at stake, perhaps more than ever before. They have come so far this time with their neocon dreams....they will not give it easily.

Recommended with pleasure for a thorough post.

[G_j]

5. right on! I was thinking about that MLK quote, thanks

some have found this 'inspiring'
Open Letter To Congress:
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/5375

[Me.]

6. Eerie

How we seem to stand frozen in place and time. Iraq, Vietnam, Iraq, Vietnam, Irag, Vietnam. Soon we won't be able to tell the difference.

Link to Part 1: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5527024

[unkachuck]

8. very true....n/t

[young_at_heart]

9. Thank you for this---what a thought-provoking reminder

Some of my classmates never returned from Viet Nam and I ache for the lives they never had a chance to lead----they lost everything----for what? The same can be said today. I don't know how Bush supporters can face themselves in the mirror each morning.

[newswolf56]

10. In support of Dean's comments:

I think we as a nation have gone far beyond the point where the considerations that might have once restrained such criticism have any relevance at all. Internationally the United States is nearly as despised as Nazi Germany was -- and for many of the same reasons, including the fact it is obvious to Europe both Iraq and the aftermath of Katrina are merely the opening offensives of an onslaught to elevate the U.S. corporate oligarchy to global omnipotence.

Domestically the Bush Administration is finally being recognized for what it is -- the ultimate achievement of American capitalism, tasked with unleashing the tyrannosauric savagery that has always been implicit in capitalism's core values -- with the result that a growing number are awakening to the truth articulated by Gore a few weeks ago: that never in history has American liberty been in such jeopardy.

In this context, truthful criticism (no matter how damning) is vital. In the eyes of the world we could hardly look any worse than we already do -- and criticism such as Dean's will at least make it clear not everyone is marching in lockstep with Bush, his corporate masters and their JesuNazi stormtroopers: a point that needs to be made not only abroad, but to rally the people here at home.

[Wordie]

11. Thanks so much for this reminder...we must stand up for those who

stand up for us. Recommended.

[stickdog]

12. That post was completely valid. (nt)

[H2O Man]

13. Regarding LBJ .....

Both King and Kennedy had to deal with the abusive tactics of the President of the United States after they spoke out against his Vietnam War policies. It might not seem like such a big deal today, especially for those who were not alive at that time. MLK and RFK are remembered as heroic figures, and correctly so. But they were also human beings, with families, and LBJ was a cruel and vindictive man. He had an ally in J. Edgar Hoover, the FBI Director who had files about every political "enemy" .... and Hoover despised both Martin and Robert.

I've always found LBJ a fascinating character; surely without the war, he would be recognized as one of the great presidents, because he had progressive social policies. He believed in the Great Society. The circumstance of his presidency, the social unrest of the times, and the war combined to result in his experiencing a near total emotional break-down.

This is perhaps best documented in his telling Doris Kearns Goodwin, in March of 1968 if memory serves me correctly, about a haunting dream that he had been having:

"I felt like I was being chased on all sides by a giant stampede. I was being forced over the edge by rioting blacks, demonstrating students, marching welfare mothers, squawking professors, and hysterical reporters. And then the final straw: The thing I feared from the first day of my Presidency was actually coming true. Robert Kennedy had openly announced his intention to reclaim the throne in the memory of his brother. And the American people, swayed by the magic of the name, were dancing in the street."

Do not listen to "centrist" democrats who say that protests by the grass-roots and bold statements by brave leaders have no effect on the way a president wages a war.

[H2O Man]

14. A number of good books

detail the break from reality that LBJ suffered from as a result of the stress from the Vietnam war. George Reedy left the Johnson White House in 1965, and authored "The Twilight of the Presidency," which is still the classic account of how "the isolation of power withdrew the President from reality." Arthur Schlesinger, Jr's wonderful book, "Robert Kennedy (and his times)" details how most of LBJ's top aides came to believe the president's "titanic gyrations of mood and temper" posed a danger to the republic.

Perhaps the most fascinating accounts come from the woman he trusted most in his adult life, who served as a mother/lover in the strange world of LBJ. He told Doris Kearns Goodwin in 1970, "I knew from the start that I was bound to be crucified either way I moved. If I left the woman I realy loved -- the Great Society -- in order to get involved with that bitch of a war on the other side of the world, then I would lose everything at home. ... And I knew that if we let Communist aggression succeed in taking over South Vietnam .... that would shatter my Presidency, kill my administration, and damage our democracy."

Doris's book on LBJ also contains one of the stranger monologues by President Johnson. She noted that the talk was punctuated by "irrelevant" outbursts of laughter:

"Two or three intellectuals started it all you know. They produced all the doubt. ... And it spread and it spread ..Then Bobby began taking it up as his cause with Martin Luther King on his payroll he went around stirring up the Negroes ... Then the Communists stepped in. They control the three major networks, you know, and the forty major outlets of communication. Walter Lippmann is a communist and so is Teddy White. It's all in the FBI reports .... Isn't it funny that I always received a piece of advice from my top advisers right after each of them had been in contact with someone in the Communist world? And isn't it funny that you could always find Dobrynin's car in front of Reston's house the night before Reston delivered a blast on Vietnam?"

Small wonder that the people around LBJ were concerned.

[Me.]

18. 2 Or 3 Intellectuals

It didn't take more front men than that. Amazing. A few people, at the right time, stepping up. To her credit Cindy Sheehan did it and continues and now I read that Michael Schaivo is going after bible thumping politicians. Anger is welling. I can't see that we have a Martin or Bobby these days, but Dr. Dean is speaking the uncomfortable truths and taking the heat for it. But he can't do the job alone. We need more than him and Murtha. Those whose concern for the country has moved beyond fear, and there are very few.

[Me.]

17. Today, It Does Seem Like A Big Deal

given the amount of vindictiveness the WH has been spewing since they took over. I do find his dream fascinating for it denotes a sense of conscience and responsibility. Not knowing him personally, I would still be willing to bet that GW's sleep isn't disturbed by such dreams.

[H2O Man]

15. Yesterday ....

one DUer who I believe is convinced he is a "centrist," but who other DUers are convinced subscribes to DLC views, disagreed strongly with my saying that Gov. Dean was attempting to convey much the same message that MLK and RFK did in '67 and '68. This person stated it was his belief that Senator Clinton was actually taking on the mantle of King and Kennedy.

I am unsure of what would present a greater danger to the democratic party: if the right-wing, corporate faction of the party was purposely lying to the grass-roots in a cheesy attempt to get votes; or if they are delusional enough to actually believe they represent, somehow, both the center and the progressive parts of the party.

My goal isn't to attack any of the democrats who are at the right-wing of the party. If it comes down to a vote in 2008 between Senator Clinton and McCain or Rice, I'll vote for Hillary. But we should not pretend that she is anywhere near where MLK or RFK were in her stance on an immoral war. And, to borrow Newfield's phrase, she seems willing to butcher her conscience in order to appeal to the left-wing of the republican party .... a group that she surely has far more in common with in many areas than she does with the progressive, grass-roots section of the democratic party.

It seems clear she is intent upon running in 2008. Thus, the threads on DU that discuss/debate her qualifications are a good thing. They aren't divisive, in the sense some "centrists" would tell us. The ball is in her (and other democrats who are comfortably snuggled up with the Bush policy in Iraq) court. If they feel they can make gains by distancing themselves from Dean when he tells the truth, and by marginalizing the anti-war movement, that is their choice. If their lap dogs want to say the anti-war movement didn't help end that war, then they should not expect any support from today's anti-war movement.

[G_j]

20. I wish we could all sit down and listen to this

MLK Jr. speech together. There is no way the centrists/moderates would embrace this today, one of the most powerful speeches ever given by an American. But hopefully it might awaken something.

audio & text:
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/mlkatimetobreaksilence.htm

text:
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0115-13.htm


Beyond Vietnam: A Time to Break Silence
Declaration of Independence from the War in Vietnam

Delivered by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr
April 1967
At Manhattan's Riverside Church


OVER THE PAST TWO YEARS, as I have moved to break the betrayal of my own silences and to speak from the burnings of my own heart, as I have called for radical departures from the destruction of Vietnam, many persons have questioned me about the wisdom of my path. At the heart of their concerns this query has often loomed large and loud: Why are you speaking about the war, Dr. King? Why are you joining the voices of dissent? Peace and civil rights don't mix, they say. Aren't you hurting the cause of your people, they ask. And when I hear them, though I often understand the source of their concern, I am nevertheless greatly saddened, for such questions mean that the inquirers have not really known me, my commitment or my calling. Indeed, their questions suggest that they do not know the world in which they live.

In the light of such tragic misunderstanding, I deem it of signal importance to try to state clearly why I believe that the path from Dexter Avenue Baptist Church, the church in Montgomery, Alabama, where I began my pastorage, leads clearly to this sanctuary tonight.

I come to this platform to make a passionate plea to my beloved nation. This speech is not addressed to Hanoi or to the National Liberation Front. It is not addressed to China or to Russia.

..much, much more..

[Me.]

21. Time Warp

It is my belief that Senator Clinton and the rest of the DLCers are living in the 90's, in the land where elections didn't get stolen by the SCOTUS, before wars of aggression, where the corruption wasn't so rampant. What was one of the big scandals of the 90's? A stamp scandal. Hardly on the level of Abramoff. And that may be part of the problem. Maybe people can't get their heads around all the egregiousness and believe it has actually gotten so bad. Their lying eyes you know.

[H2O Man]

24. One of the most basic parts

of "human nature" in this era is the belief that "if only this happened..." or "if this person would only do ...." The belief is that THEN things would be different.

Yet without any question, today is a direct result of yesterday, just as sure as yesterday was a direct result of the day before .... and tomorrow will be a result of today. For this reason, when we read the stories about MLK, RFK, LBJ, and Vietnam, we say, "Holy cow, that sounds so much like today!"

It is like today: it can not help but be like today, because it is a consequence of the cycle of events that turns just as surely as the seasons. Events alone cannot help but be part of that cycle.

Yet human nature also allows the ONLY opportunity for advancement. Because people CAN change. But we can not change others, by staying the same ourselves!

People like MLK and RFK could only EFFECT change, by changing themselves. They began by going on internal searches for truth, and then expressing the results in a very public way. Of course, as is human nature, many resented their change .... and said things like, "what they are saying is DANGEROUS" .... because the truth often strikes people as threatening.

Dean is attempting to tell the truth. He makes people uncomfortable. But what he is saying is absolutely necessary, if we are to change course .... rather than follow the insane course that Bush/Cheney are bringing us down.

Clinton and the DLCers are not merely living in the 1990s .... they are living in the never-ending cycle that occures when one day results to another, and the next is a mere consequence of the first. And that can ONLY lead to one place .... a place that other nations that have attempted to expand and control other cultures, for their own economic/political benefit, always end up. A place that, when we read about it, tends to make us say, "Holy cow! That sure sounds a lot like today!"

And that's the real risk of ignoring Dean. Not that some DLC democrat won't get elected in 2006 or '08. But the danger that people like MLK and RFK warned us about.

[Me.]

26. "People like MLK and RFK could only EFFECT change, by changing themselves.

Wonderful response. People do resent change, are frightened by it, so frightened that many would rather burn in hell than let change in. It's a big oogey boogey, the unknown. One thing that may be change forth is if the misery without change becomes greater than the misery they fear might come with change.

[DancingBear]

16. Here is a link to an article in today's WaPo that speaks to this

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/06/AR2005120601707.html

It is entitled "Democrats fear backlash at polls", and it is rife with quote after quote from DLC Dems and their cohorts, as they stand firmly in the middle and watch the wind direction.

Particularly disturbing is a quote from a "Dem" in GA, who equates Dean's comments with "the scream."

[H2O Man]

19. Several cable news shows

have shown a film clip of "the scream" when reporting on this current story. Yet none of them would consider playing a clip of the president looking like a deer in headlights, from the first debate with Kerry, with every news story about him.

[DancingBear]

22. Fascinating, yes?

Nary a "You forgot about Poland" anywhere.

Such a surprise.

[H2O Man]

23. It seems odd

that on MSNBC, as I type this, one fellow is asking Chris Matthews why the president hasn't brought out all the simply wonderful things happening in Iraq ..... Matthews just said Bush must take a page from LBJ and show the American public that there's "a light at the end of the tunnel." And they question Dean's insight?

[DancingBear]

27. And it worked out so well for Lyndon

They pay Matthews for this insight, don't they?

I must go now, and update my resume.

Experience: None
Political acumen: Lacking
Suck up quotient: High
Moral component: Changeable at will

There, that oughtta do it...

[Just Me]

25. I realize taking such a stand requires courage but, goshdarnit,...

,...the majority of Americans believe Iraq was a mistake and they are increasingly losing faith in any successful end game.

IOW the risk of taking a stand on withdrawing our troops due to the very strong likelihood that there is a "no win" situation as long as we continue to occupy Iraq has dramatically diminished due to public opinion.

There simply is NO excuse to fail and exercise the courage necessary to unite on a common stand: we must withdraw because our presence almost guarantees a loss --- of life, of credibility, of "victory", of democracy, of national security.

AND, on edit, Joe Lieberman can kiss my ass!!! EW! I am so angry at him!!! :grr:

[H2O Man]

29. I think that

Senator Lieberman is perhaps the perfect example of a DLC-type of democrat who has far, far more in common with liberal republicans -- and even the administration neocons -- than he does with and other the progressive democrats on DU. I'm not particularly angry with him, though I can appreciate why others are. I do feel betrayed, in a sense, because I think he fooled me into believing he was someone different in 2000. But he is not.

His recent lap-dog behaviors really should come as no surprise. He is a poodle. One should not be angry that poodles behave in poodle-like manners. It is their nature. Saying that, I think it is fair to say that many of us are unlikely to welcome a poodle like Lieberman into our homes.

[Beetwasher]

28. The Funny Thing About These, Ahem, "Geniuses" Who Are Bashing Dean

Is they are so clueless about the PR element and the maneuvering that's involved in Dean doing something like this that it's laughable. It's like they live in one dimension. Dean knew exactly what he was doing.

Would CNN be running polls asking "Is the war winnable?" if Dean kept his mouth shut or said something that non-controversial? Would this question be on the lips of all the talking heads?

I mean, he's whipped the right wing lunatics into a frothing, rabid frenzy! He's MADE them go over the top and call him a traitor! Meanwhile, 60% of the country according to the latest polls wants us OUT of Iraq and thinks the war was wrong! These rightwing blowhards are insulting that 60% who have their own questions and doubts about the war!

What he's done is unveiled these psychopaths. By attacking Dean they are now attacking the significant majority of the country who question the wisdom of this lunatic war.

The fact remains, only controversy gets headlines. If Dean made some bland, anemic policy statement, the press would have yawned and there would be no firestorm of debate and attention paid to the issue. The fact is, the war CAN'T be won, and everyone knows it whether they want to admit it or not.

[H2O Man]

30. I agree.

I'd say that some of the democrats who are trying to distance themselves from Dean's statement, are doing so because they do not want a public spotlight on their weak stance on Iraq. In those cases, I think it is safe to say these democrats are more in support of the Cheney-Bush policies, than they are active in any effort to end the US-occupation of that country.

[Me.]

32. Read On Another Thread That The DLC Held Their Meeting

at the same time as the DNC has their in Phoenix. But the DlC held theirs in Aspen. That tells me alot. For instance what WH aide was the source for a journalist in jail and wrote her about the Aspens? Also scheduling the meeting at the same time as the DNC. There is nothing democratic about the DLC and they are just a bunch of Liebermans.

[Me.]

33. Here's The Link To That Thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5534605

[Me.]

35. Apparently The DNC Had To Reschedule

Due To Katrina.

[H2O Man]

34. I would hope

that DU would be a place where progressive political issues and goals are discussed, and even debated. I am not interested in Senator Lieberman's type of democrat. I think that those people are responsible not only for allowing the administration to bring about the war, but for allowing it to continue unchallanged. I do not think there is an appreciable difference between Lieberman and Cheney on this issue.

[wiggs]

31. We need a hero like those you mention. We really do

And that person has to have credibility, appeal, media support, vision, ability to relate to the majority of Americans (sorry Hillary and John), moral integrity and consistency.

That person doesn't need to be president, necessarily, but at the least our hero needs to point the way to a course correction and to the underlying anti-democratic pro-corporate forces that got us going in the wrong direction in the first place.

Don't know who that is....Dean seems to be an easy target, even though he is starting to say the right things. He is an important part of all this in any case.

Except for the media support part, Edwards is good. Clarke is good. Gore is good. But I don't think of the word "hero" when I think of them. Not Kennedy stature, anyway. Bill Clinton certainly had "it", but had a hidden character flaw that diminished his terms. Colin Powell had "it" but hitched his horse to the wrong cart.

[H2O Man]

38. Interesting.

I think that we needto access that part of ourselves. I think we need to take the hero's journey collectively. That's the thing that is needed now. When we start doing that, then the appropriate representatives come forward from within the group.

It may even be that such a representative comes from within the group we know fondly as politicians. I'm not sure. I think it may come from an unexpected source. It will not be a "leader," which may be the reason that politicians are limited. It will be someone, or some group, that awakens people's sense of humanity.

[Me.]

40. Hero's Journey

Ala Campbell? Would you summarize?

[bloom]

36. kick...

:kick:

[democrank]

37. Many pundits and politicians

just don`t know what to do when a down to earth truth teller like Dean arrives on the scene. But...but...what about the consultants? The focus groups? The props? The talking points?

Go Howard.

[tlsmith1963]

39. I'm Tired of It

I'm tired of conservatives saying that liberals love it when soldiers die. They have been saying horrible lies
about us for years. I mean, you would think we were monsters, with the way they describe us. I hope these mean-spirited, lying jerks get what they deserve. I've
been waiting a long time for the tide to turn.

Tammy

[Me.]

41. War Is Over

If we want it

[CatWoman]

42. kick

:kick: