Is Islamo-Fascist an Actual Term?

[stepnw1f]

Isn't this sort of contradictory? Islam + Fascism.... is it? I really don't know, but Righties tend to make shit up all the time.

[LifeDuringWartime]

1. sounds scary

but wouldn't it just be a fascist government influenced by islam?

[stepnw1f]

3. Exactly....

fascism is fascism.

[acmejack]

11. Do you think they really meet the definition of "Fascist?

Islamic theocracy, Islamic totalitarianism, Islamic authoritarianism, but Islamo-fascism? It really does have a nice ring to it, undoubtedly Frank Luntz focus group tested. I just wonder if that it is really an accurate description.

[stepnw1f]

17. No... That's why I Asked

It seems idiotic actually. It just amazes me how these freaks twist the english language to mean anything they need it to mean.

[blm]

2. I've been calling the Bushies Christo-fascists for about 4 yrs now.

.

[stepnw1f]

6. Good Point...

I guess I guilty too.

[blm]

9. yeah...but WE'RE accurate and they're just spinning.

The Rightwing Islamists are authoritarian opportunists and evil thugs but not fascists.

[ananda]

4. Rummy and Perle use the term..

.. with relish, as in: The Islamofascists want to turn the world into a caliphate?

Waalll, I swan... caliphate!?? Dogmycats.

Sue

[Aimah]

7. I doubt they know what a Caliphat really is.

[MisterP]

14. there's an IKEA mattress called Calif

[Aimah]

23. So Rumy hates mattresses? No wonder he's confused. nt

[Aimah]

5. It sounds demonizing towards Islam nt

[stepnw1f]

8. Bingo

But so isn't Christo-Fascism.

[Aimah]

12. Sure which is probably why you haven't heard it as often..

as "Islamo-fascists"

[Midnight Rambler]

10. It's a term used by wingnuts, but it's completely off base

Islamic Fundamentalism, which is a religious movement, has nothing to do with Fascism. There's no corporate state, no militarized society, none of the stuff that characterizes Fascism. They still use the term, because it has bad connotations, but they are so innacurate in it's use that it's laughable. Of course, the wingnuts don't want to hear this, A) because it's such a convenient way to muck things up for their uninformed flocks, B) because properly defining Fascism would throw light on their own Fascist tendencies.

[tabasco]

13. It's a propaganda term they invented

when they absurdly tried to equate the Iraq war with WWII.

:rofl:

[tasty macfadden]

15. is there islamo fascism?

Bet your sweet ass, as you americans so charmingly put it. "FASCES" latin - a bunch of tied sticks used for beating people. I think some of the Bush family employers over there in Arabia flog people, they certainly do in Pakistan and if that doesn't have the desired rehabilitative effect they chop off their limbs or heads, generally in public and especially if they're women. A bit like your own approach with black folks and the electric chair. One of the aspects of islam often forgotten, though, is that they don't have insurance companies and such, its part of their way that the community should care for the widowed, the orphaned and the genuine poor; in the US of course, you leave them to the tender mercies of the Federal Emergency Management Agency and the dirty waters of the Mississippi.


Wasn't it the great libertarians and protectors of young impressionable women -Mr and Mrs Clinton- who celebrated their first inauguration by toasting a mentally retarded black man?

Long ago and far away in a different country Jesuit Berrigan wrote that America was hard to find; if you want to make it worth looking for maybe you should tend to your own political and religious establishments and not worry too much about islamo fascism.

Rally round the flag y'all.

[tabasco]

25. Yawn. Here's a link for you to go rally round the flag.

www.goarmy.com

Now go get those Islamo-fascists!

I did my 12 years in the infantry.

[tasty macfadden]

31. Its a mans life in the army

Hope you managed, sweetie, to kill some folks for uncle sam.

[tabasco]

34. Disdain for the military.

How republican of you !

Have any spare Purple Heart bandaids?

Now go wave your flag, sweetie.

[tasty macfadden]

43. your comments are not exactly the Gettysburg address

We dont do republicanism over here in Scotland, England. Well, not the sort you'd recognise. But if you look at the English news you'll see that a video's just come out showing a bunch of twelve year ladies like you dressing-up in womens clothes and battering young recruits half to death, worse than the way you boys didtinguished democracy at Abu Graib; you'd probably be right at home in the Royal Marines. Your time spent in the forces, probably in the kitchen by the sound of you, does not excuse your ignorance of and your indifference to your own political system. If you want to know something about america read a little about Antietam and Gettysburg; forces released then are still at work and colour still your nation's ability to export slaughter all over the world, at ludicrous costs to yourselves; the soldiers though, boys then as now, they were real, thinkers and doers, fighters, warriors. Ask yourself what they would think of coke-snortin, partying presidents who'd dodged the draft and ask yourself how long you folks are going to have one or another kind of thieving, lying, cheating, murdering slimeball wrapping himself in the stars and stripes and sending poor boys to spill their guts pointlessly in foreign sands. And then yawn again.

I bet you never even heard the expession: patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel; and even if you did you wouldn't know what it means; but what it means, sweetie, is you.

[ck4829]

16. The "'islamic' Right" is a better term

[PsychoDad]

50. That has a ring to it...

A nice ring indeed.

[EVDebs]

18. "From the Nile to the Euphrates"......

Greater Israel
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/greater-israel.htm

mentions Forcing God's Hand by Grace Halsell, former LBJ speechwriter. End Time Delusions by Steven Wohlberg also sheds light on the origins of the Middle East's problems with real estate-based religion. Bush's whole eschatology (study of the end times) merges nicely with what I mentioned in an earlier post to DU

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1877885

You should also look up Chris Hedges Harper's article

Soldiers of Christ II : Feeling the Hate
www.harpers.org/FeelingTheHate.html

Along with George Monbiot's Guardian article

Their beliefs are bonkers, but they are at the heart of power--
US Christian fundamentalists are driving Bush's Middle East policy

www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1195568,00.html

BTW, this article incorrectly places the origin of dispensationalism/'futurism' in the 1800s. As you can see, it actually began with the Jesuit's and the Counter-Reformation (read the earlier DU posting).

Bush's good intentions to spread democracy in the Middle East, alas, cannot be done by force. The goals of the Arab Human Development Report first done in 2002

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20020901fabook9795/the-united-nations-development-program-the-arab-fund-for-economic-social-development/arab-human-development-report-2002.html

"The contributors make the case for greater human rights and freedom, complete empowerment of Arab women, and better production and utilization of knowledge. Arab Human Development Report 2002 is the work of Arab specialists, not outsiders. Perhaps this feature will make the report's findings more acceptable to the Arab leadership, both in diagnosis and prescriptions."

Perhaps this is why the Europeans stayed away from 'Gulf War Part Deux' this time around. The goals of the AHDR must be fulfilled by the Arab world themselves...not rammed down their throats.

Just more evidence of Bush administration incompetence and hubris. But what's new, eh ?

[Just Me]

19. Isn't Islam based upon social justice which precludes "fascism"?

:shrug:

I imagine those who "created" that term prolly hate the prospect of economic and social justice, preferring a more "rule of the jungle" system. I imagine.

[stepnw1f]

22. So Doesn't Christianity

yet we use the term Christo-Fascist. However I know they designed this term with the soul purpose of denegrating Islamic faith and those that practice that faith.

[Just Me]

28. No, I don't think so. Christianity isn't based upon social justice,...

,...but, rather, "divine" justice (whatever that is) separating man from man and from God.

I do agree that the term was created to denigrate/discriminate/prejudice Islam. That pisses me off!

[Douglas Carpenter]

20. It is term purposely designed to illicit racist sentiments

[stepnw1f]

21. right on

[dalaigh lllama]

24. Here's three definitions of fascism from various sources

Definitions of Fascism on the Web:

"A philosophy or system of government that is marked by stringent social and economic control, a strong, centralized government usually headed by a dictator, and often a policy of belligerent nationalism." (From The American Heritage Dictionary)
www.2.truman.edu/~marc/resources/terms.html

The name comes from the Latin fasces – a bundle of rods with a projecting axe, which was the symbol of authority in ancient Rome. The term was applied by Mussolini to his movement after his rise to power in 1922. The Fascists were viciously anti-Communist and anti- liberal and, once in power, relied on an authoritarian state apparatus. They also used emotive slogans and old prejudices (for example, against the Jews) to bolster the leader's strongman appeal. ...
www.channel4.com/history/microsites/H/history/browse/glossary.html

A social and political ideology with the primary guiding principle that the state or nation is the highest priority, rather than personal or individual freedoms.
www.chgs.umn.edu/Educational_Resources/Curriculum/Witness_And_Legacy_-_Teacher_R/Glossary__Teacher_Resource_Boo/glossary__teacher_resource_boo.html

I'd say that Al Qaeda terrorists could hardly be characterized as fascists, since a strong, central government seems to be one of the prerequisites. Hmmm, let me think if there are any other current examples of fascism rearing its ugly head...:think:

[DavidBowman]

32. I disagree

I think what Al Qaeda is ultimately after is a strong, Muslim state spanning the Middle East, or at least several strong, Muslim states with authoritarian governments. In this way, they are fascist as far as I can tell. But I wouldn't use the term just because it's already so charged. It's distracting.

[dalaigh lllama]

40. Hmmm

Good point. But then, since they (Al Qaeda, that is) haven't achieved a strong, central government to date, should they be called Islamo-fascist wannabes?

I think your last statement probably explains in a nutshell why *co uses the term -- it's distracting.

[DavidBowman]

41. Nah,

As long as Neo-Nazi types in the US are fascists, these guys are too. Of course, they are wannabes in other respects, but the fascist part is the genuine article, whether or not they have control of a government.

Douches.

[dalaigh lllama]

51. Agreed -- El Douches n/t

[knight_of_the_star]

49. I would disagree with that

WHat they want is a return to the Golden Age of Islam, and part of that involves giving the West the boot out of the ME and sweeping out all the Western-style leaders and attempts to impose western governments. I don't think they've gotten past the part about retaking their homelands, at least not in a way where they have announced it publicly.

[muriel_volestrangler]

55. Bin Laden did once talk about establishing a 'pious caliphate'

http://jamestown.org/terrorism/news/article.php?articleid=2369732

which does imply one central control over many Islamic lands - and since he said it would start from Afghanistan (when the Taliban were in control there), that looks like a very large empire he was contemplating.

[fedsron2us]

57. Fascism Anyone ?

Lawrence Birt gives a pretty handy list of the 14 characteristics normally associated with fascism.


1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism. From the prominent displays of flags and bunting to the ubiquitous lapel pins, the fervor to show patriotic nationalism, both on the part of the regime itself and of citizens caught up in its frenzy, was always obvious. Catchy slogans, pride in the military, and demands for unity were common themes in expressing this nationalism. It was usually coupled with a suspicion of things foreign that often bordered on xenophobia.

2. Disdain for the importance of human rights. The regimes themselves viewed human rights as of little value and a hindrance to realizing the objectives of the ruling elite. Through clever use of propaganda, the population was brought to accept these human rights abuses by marginalizing, even demonizing, those being targeted. When abuse was egregious, the tactic was to use secrecy, denial, and disinformation.

3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause. The most significant common thread among these regimes was the use of scapegoating as a means to divert the people’s attention from other problems, to shift blame for failures, and to channel frustration in controlled directions. The methods of choice—relentless propaganda and disinformation—were usually effective. Often the regimes would incite “spontaneous” acts against the target scapegoats, usually communists, socialists, liberals, Jews, ethnic and racial minorities, traditional national enemies, members of other religions, secularists, homosexuals, and “terrorists.” Active opponents of these regimes were inevitably labeled as terrorists and dealt with accordingly.

4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism. Ruling elites always identified closely with the military and the industrial infrastructure that supported it. A disproportionate share of national resources was allocated to the military, even when domestic needs were acute. The military was seen as an expression of nationalism, and was used whenever possible to assert national goals, intimidate other nations, and increase the power and prestige of the ruling elite.

5. Rampant sexism. Beyond the simple fact that the political elite and the national culture were male-dominated, these regimes inevitably viewed women as second-class citizens. They were adamantly anti-abortion and also homophobic. These attitudes were usually codified in Draconian laws that enjoyed strong support by the orthodox religion of the country, thus lending the regime cover for its abuses.

6. A controlled mass media. Under some of the regimes, the mass media were under strict direct control and could be relied upon never to stray from the party line. Other regimes exercised more subtle power to ensure media orthodoxy. Methods included the control of licensing and access to resources, economic pressure, appeals to patriotism, and implied threats. The leaders of the mass media were often politically compatible with the power elite. The result was usually success in keeping the general public unaware of the regimes’ excesses.

7. Obsession with national security. Inevitably, a national security apparatus was under direct control of the ruling elite. It was usually an instrument of oppression, operating in secret and beyond any constraints. Its actions were justified under the rubric of protecting “national security,” and questioning its activities was portrayed as unpatriotic or even treasonous.

8. Religion and ruling elite tied together. Unlike communist regimes, the fascist and protofascist regimes were never proclaimed as godless by their opponents. In fact, most of the regimes attached themselves to the predominant religion of the country and chose to portray themselves as militant defenders of that religion. The fact that the ruling elite’s behavior was incompatible with the precepts of the religion was generally swept under the rug. Propaganda kept up the illusion that the ruling elites were defenders of the faith and opponents of the “godless.” A perception was manufactured that opposing the power elite was tantamount to an attack on religion.

9. Power of corporations protected. Although the personal life of ordinary citizens was under strict control, the ability of large corporations to operate in relative freedom was not compromised. The ruling elite saw the corporate structure as a way to not only ensure military production (in developed states), but also as an additional means of social control. Members of the economic elite were often pampered by the political elite to ensure a continued mutuality of interests, especially in the repression of “have-not” citizens.

10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated. Since organized labor was seen as the one power center that could challenge the political hegemony of the ruling elite and its corporate allies, it was inevitably crushed or made powerless. The poor formed an underclass, viewed with suspicion or outright contempt. Under some regimes, being poor was considered akin to a vice.

11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts. Intellectuals and the inherent freedom of ideas and expression associated with them were anathema to these regimes. Intellectual and academic freedom were considered subversive to national security and the patriotic ideal. Universities were tightly controlled; politically unreliable faculty harassed or eliminated. Unorthodox ideas or expressions of dissent were strongly attacked, silenced, or crushed. To these regimes, art and literature should serve the national interest or they had no right to exist.

12. Obsession with crime and punishment. Most of these regimes maintained Draconian systems of criminal justice with huge prison populations. The police were often glorified and had almost unchecked power, leading to rampant abuse. “Normal” and political crime were often merged into trumped-up criminal charges and sometimes used against political opponents of the regime. Fear, and hatred, of criminals or “traitors” was often promoted among the population as an excuse for more police power.

13. Rampant cronyism and corruption. Those in business circles and close to the power elite often used their position to enrich themselves. This corruption worked both ways; the power elite would receive financial gifts and property from the economic elite, who in turn would gain the benefit of government favoritism. Members of the power elite were in a position to obtain vast wealth from other sources as well: for example, by stealing national resources. With the national security apparatus under control and the media muzzled, this corruption was largely unconstrained and not well understood by the general population.

14. Fraudulent elections. Elections in the form of plebiscites or public opinion polls were usually bogus. When actual elections with candidates were held, they would usually be perverted by the power elite to get the desired result. Common methods included maintaining control of the election machinery, intimidating and disenfranchising opposition voters, destroying or disallowing legal votes, and, as a last resort, turning to a judiciary beholden to the power elite.

http://educate-yourself.org/cn/fourteencharacteristicsfascism03jan04.shtml

I can think of quite a few regimes in both the non Islamic and Islamic world that meet quite a few of those criteria. Your enemy's enemy is not always your friend.

[Telly Savalas]

26. It's an extremely useful term.

Whenever someone uses the word "islamofascist" when discussing the Middle East, it's a nice, quick, and easy way to tell that most of what's to follow is going to be bullshit and that it's safe to stop listening.

[Mr_Spock]

27. Same as Christo-Fascist.

They are one and the same IMHO.

[leftchick]

29. I thought I heard the chimpass say "Islamabo Fascist"

:eyes:

[tasty macfadden]

33. fair play for chimps

AREN'T CHIMPS QUITE COOL, REALLY, ALMOST LIKE HUMAN BEINGS. No matter how many Bushfolks you had, how many typewriters, none of them'd ever write anything except "gimme more" Leave the chimps out of it; they're on a whole different, higher, level.

[eallen]

30. Seems to me "fundamentalist Islam" is more descriptive....

The right wing doesn't like that term, because it points out the similarity to their own base.

[spindrifter]

Agreed--I don't

think they like the term fundamentalist tossed around outside the Christian tent.

[JoMama49]

36. michael savage uses this term, and of course he is

trying to demonize all muslims -- all arabs for that matter. And, as usual, he claims he coined the term like he does so many terms, even when you hear him get one from a caller on the air, he still claims he made it up. He's such a liar - I think he even published a list of all the terms he so-called originated - what a self-indulgent boob that guy is!

[applegrove]

35. Are you saying the Taliban didn't exist? Or that bin Laden & his followers

do not want one really big Islamic country with sharia law from the Atlantic to the Pacific? Starting in Morocco or West Africa and ending in the Phillipines?

Cause those are islamic fascists.

What do you think fascism is? But control of the people by government. Who cares if it is a radical theocracy or corporate in nature.

They exist.

It isn't just a freeper word.

[gumby]

39. I want a lot of things too.

In fact, my fantasies are even bigger.

However, I don't think those desires make me a fascist.

[applegrove]

42. No but you are not killing people or stoning them to death to get

what you want. The bin Ladens of the world - the radical islamic extremists were bombing civilians inside the middle east for a decade before they saw that didn't garner them either sympathy or enough civilian converts to grow al Qaeda. So they turned to the West to bomb in an attempt to get more converts.

What would you call them. Cause religious extremist is not good enough. They want power by imposing laws on people who do not follow them to make life hard. They want to kill those civilians and those civilian governments. They want to turn back all the laws of business and the like They attack anything by force (be in moral suasion or bombs) that gets in their way.

What is that if it is not fascism? That people have to be one one mind or they should be targetted?

That is fascism in its 20th century form.

[High Plains]

45. Um, it's now the 21st Century...

and I think your definition of fascism is so broad as to be almost meaningless. Authoritarians, sure. Killers, you betcha. Medieval creeps, can't argue with that. But fascist, I don't think so.

The term "islamofascist" is a term of propaganda, no more. I think we can credit our old friend Chris Hitchens with coining it, but I could be mistaken.

[applegrove]

47. It works. There are fascist Islamists. And I cannot get into a discussion

with you on the word because I have spend far too much time arguing with freepers what the meaning of the world fascist is. Cause they don't like the word.

Islamic militants who want to undo any semblant middle eastern or asian country and replace it with their own Taliban like huge transcontinental leadership - are fascists. Aggressively marching across the world to re-make nations and the lives of free people (women) in their image.

That is fascism.

I dislike the neocon instensely - but I dislike the Islamofascist more. There is no excuse for terrorism on civilians.

[gumby]

48. Unfortunately, "our" government is doing the exact same thing

you decry. And 'they' are doing it in Our Names. Ever heard of 'Shock and Awe,' 'Willy Pete' 'Shake 'n Bake' or 'rendition' or the World Wide Gulag? The USA has become your worst nightmare. Your government is now bombing civilians to impose a life on them that is very, very hard except for those few multinational contractors who worship at the alter of the 'Laws of Business' (as if that is some sort of religion).

What would I call bin Laden and his fanatical followers? Blowback.

I'm very nationalistic, but I try not to be delusional.

edit: I forgot "Shake 'n Bake." That is truly beyond words.

[applegrove]

52. Living under Saddam was no walk in the park. yes Rummy ran the

illegal war with unconscionable laxidaisicalness. All bad.

bin Laden and his types were not blowing up middle eastern civilians for 10 years because of blowback. They were doing it because they are evil men who want to control others and impose their narrow view of the world on others. And they did it by killing civilians.

Then they turned their sights to the West because it was hoped that would get them the followers they were somehow not getting in the middle east. For every one radical Islamofascist follower willing to go to a camp or enable a suicide bomber there are 10,000 peaceful middle easterners who would like to very much just get a life and live in peace. You can pretty much expect that the terrorists - as always - are middle class fuck-ups with personality disorders. Same as they always are.

The only thing you can say about radical islam and the west is that the lack of democracy that was encouraged in the middle east and the behest of the Brits, Americans and all of us to ensure oil friendly leaders - is now paying us back with societies not stable. And that the obscene amount of wealth that went the the Saudi Royal family found its way into islamic movements all over the middle east as a means of control and anti-democratic activity.

Yes that is the blow back. And now the USA and unfortunately the rest of the world is paying for that. The blowback is the wealth in the hands of so few in the middle east that democracy and civil society has not developed as it has elsewhere. And the civilians on the ground are vulnerable to theocracy. And the policy now in going after islamofascists in Thailand, Indonesia, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan and all the rest - getting the money out of the hands of islamofascists is finally a goal. As is democracy.

This last statement in no ways implies that the USA should have gone into iraq or gone in the way they did.

[applegrove]

53. I suppose we should just let al Qaeda and like groups blow civilians

up all over the world and not call them anything!

[0007]

37. 'Tis a snickerfitz term!

[gumby]

38. Those who control the language control the debate.

Although the definition of 'fascism' is mailable, certain criteria should be met. "Islamofascism" does not meet even the loosest consideration of 'fascism.'

"Islamofascists" have no State nor National Army to take over the world in the quest for their uber-utopia. They use terrorism. While terrorism does destroy and does create terror, it does not physically take over another, stronger country. Where in the world could "Islamofascists" take over without US approval (Afghanistan)?

On the other hand, George Bush has the largest Army and arsenal that the world has ever seen. He has said he is on a 'Crusade.'

"Islamofascist" is just another word made up by the uber-right-wing of this country to identify an enemy to have a Crusade against.

Of course, all of this gibberish is just the linguistic 'window dressing' to facilitate Bush's a-g-e-n-d-a.

[AntiFascist]

44. The more correct term should be....

Wahabi-Fascist. That should clear up any confusion as to which Islamic center has the ultimate corporate power to rule the world.

[sweetheart]

46. oooh scary

Gosh, some dreamers in a cave with ancient weapons, but the
will to resist Christiano-Fascists in their imperial land grab for
iraq's oil. We have become reduced to worshipping to silly gangs
of thugs, rooting one on or the other, but were there a god, the
lot of them would be thunderstruck.

[Stockholm]

54. It is all rethorical tricks

Too bad they work: remember Cochran´s "lying, perjuring, genocidal racist".

[tasty macfadden]

56. whatever youcan get away with

Like the "war" "on" (sic) "terror" horsehit becomes an actual term if enough people say it often enough. Given a lazy, supine incestuous press-government oligarchy ( and enough shitbrained machoman militarist bozos) you CAN fool if not most then enough of the people enough of the time to have them elect a criminal to the WhiteHouseCorporation. Quad erat demonstrandum, as we say in Scotland, England.

[smirkymonkey]

58. I think maybe it's time to leave the pub, tasty ol' chap.

And what is this Scotland, England stuff? They are 2 separate countries, laddie.