Man...my brother and I just totally took down my Freeper uncle in a debate

[JohnnyCougar]

It was beautiful, fellow DUers. We were swinging gracefully yet powerfully like Muhammad Ali. It took a while, but we got the momentum early and never let up!! Our whole extended family was listening! My roommate from India came with me, too. Together we made him bow to our superior knowledge of the facts and slick argumentative tactics.

I caught him in contradictions, logic traps and outright falsehoods. We argued everything from the Iraq war to the Plame case to the Niger Document scandal. He was trying to say that Joe Wilson himself forged the Niger documents to make Bush look bad. I told him that even Bush himself wasn't claiming that, asked him if he ACTUALLY SAW the documents and said that even a child would have known they were forged, and that if Bush was fooled by those documents, he was too stupid to be president!

He kept bringing up Clinton, and I asked him why everything was the fault of the "Clenis." My family got a good laugh when I explained the Clenis phenomenon. He also tried to say that Iraqis were grateful that we were invading their country, and I asked him why our own military polls show that 80% of Iraqis want us to leave. He asked what left-wing media source I got that information from, and I said from the US military, and then I asked him why he was accusing the military of lying. He didn't have a good answer.

Then I asked him why we were spending so much money on the war and not on educating our own citizens. He said that education was a waste of money because no matter how much money you spend on some people, they will refuse to learn. I asked him why he thought we could "educate" terrorists into believing democracy would work if we can't even educate our own poor. He didn't have an answer.

He tried using the line that Valerie Plame was not undercover and that Fitzy was on a witch-hunt. I asked him why Bush appointed Fitzgerald to his present position, and why Fitzgerald would try destroying the man who appointed him unless there was a very legitimate cause. I asked him why Fitzy would have carried on a case for two years when a 5 minute phone call would have told him that Plame was not undercover (if she wasn't). He didn't have an answer.

Edit-Update: He also said that Democrats attacking the war embolden the terrorists. I asked him why he thought the terrorists were sitting around watching speeches from the Democrats on American TV. My roommate from India piped in and said that India has an even better economy than Iraq, and still most people don't have TV's there. And even the ones that do aren't sitting around watching American politics. We asked him how the terrorists can even get electricity in their caves. He didn't have an answer.

The arguments went on for about an hour, but in the end, he gave up and said "that's enough" in a "you win" sort of tone. Then he requested a double scotch in defeat. He was kissing my ass the rest of the night. I bet he never argued with three educated guys like my brother, my roommate and me before. It's amazing what freepers do when confronted with the facts and when they are cornered with their own hypocrisy so artfully. I wish I had it all on video! Y'all would have loved it!

So as I retire for the night.....

Happy Thanksgiving, DU!!!!

[aquart]

1. Congratulations!

For all of us who have sat down to dinner with arch conservatives.

[Radio_Lady]

3. Luckily, all of my family are liberals -- but, boy, I don't like talking

about religion with them! Sex and politics are OK -- well, not sex...

Anyway, we had a good evening, except for having to suck on antacids after midnight. Have a good day tomorrow!

[Clark2008]

44. Mine, too, thank God.

We live in Tennessee - an alleged red state - and both my parents and my grandfather and my fiance's parents and sister are all liberals.

Yesterday was one big Bush bash between going to both families' houses. :7

[fleabert]

2. can you come with me to my uncle's house sometime?

I get too emotional, you are a rock. :hug:

[JohnnyCougar]

7. Of course, flea!

You know I'd do anything for you!

The trick is not to get emotional...know that you are going to win eventually because the facts are on your side, and anyone dim enough to believe in Republican propaganda is certainly going to make quite a few contradictory statements in the course of the argument. You just need to sniff out the inconsistencies and hammer them home. The only way to defeat a freeper in an argument is to use their own point of view against them. Like turning their left-wing media argument into asking them "why are you accusing our own military of lying" or asking them why we are trying to educate the middle east if educating our own poor doesn't work. It is nearly a fool-proof tactic, but you have to be quick on your toes.

I nearly gave my dad a conniption fit this afternoon, too. He has been a freeper for a while.

Anytime you want me to argue down a freeper, just ask!

:hug:

[fleabert]

43. It's so hard.

He and I have a tumultuous relationship anyway, throw politics in the mix and you can imagine how it goes. He is just plain mean. He reminds me of Rush, very bulldog-ish, and I just don't respond well to it.

thanks for having my back. Next time he sends me a vicious email I will forward it to you!

[JohnnyCougar]

77. Go right ahead. I'll be happy to answer it!

Although it's harder to force them to answer to their own hypocricy via e-mail. I think I do better in person.

But here's a trick, dearest fleabert. Don't take his meanness personally. Instead of feeling like you are doing something wrong to cause his meanness, look at him as if his meanness is a sickness he has to deal with that is totally unrelated to you. In that way you create a mindset where you will not blame yourself for his failure to communicate with you in a mature manner.

Once you do this, you will be able to think more clearly when debating him. Of course, it's a good mindset to have for life in general, too.

Have courage, flea! :pals:

[ngGale]

4. That's what I call, a real "Thanksgiving"...

gift. The gift of true knowledge!:hi:

[Jamastiene]

5. Maybe you and your talented cohorts should be the

ones to make the case that homophobia, racsim, sexism, and all the other right wing isms are just plain wrong. Bravo. Job well done.

[ClayZ]

6. Please, go to my Mother's house!

Sounds like you may have turned one!

[Bru]

8. I am JohnnyCougar's brother...

Our uncle kept bringing up how Iraq had WMDs, a nuclear weapons program, had connections to Al Qaeda, etc, and we kept refuting him.

It was hard trying to exorcise the Iraq war lies demon that Fox News had implanted in him.

[WildClarySage]

12. Well done, and welcome to DU!

[mazzarro]

13. Welcome to DU and good job! (eom)

[slaveplanet]

14. Apt analogy

Exorcism...LOL

What argument did you use to refute the nuclear program argument?

and welcome aboard...

[Kahuna]

18. Welcome to DU, Bru. You and Johnny..

:yourock:

[WritingIsMyReligion]

31. Well done, and WELCOME TO DU!

If you can argue that eloquently face-to-face, I know you'll be welcome here.

:toast::hi:

[Glenda]

53. Welcome to DU!!

:toast:

:hi:

[Bru]

64. Thanks for all the welcomes!

It's good to be a part of such a large group of Democrats!

[tavalon]

75. Actually liberals or progressives might be a better term

We have a number of Greens, a few Anarchists and lately, a fair number of, get this, Republicans. Now granted they are moderate Republicans who've been horrified my the fascist leanings of the current misadministration.

Welcome to DU Bru!

[leanin_green]

81. Stay with the Democrat tag. You can define what that is for yourself.

[Vektor]

55. Welcome, Bru!

Nice to have you here, and good work with the "Uncle Freeper" situation!
:hi:

[hwmnbn]

57. Hi Bru, welcome to DU

:hi:

You've already earned your bones, so to speak. Great to have you and JohnnyCougar as our tag-team champs.

:yourock:

[K8-EEE]

9. Good Job!!

Very nice Johnny Cougar....the Freeps I know, they pretty much shut up around me these days. They don't want to lose another argument. THANKS DU! I'm the super-freeper-buster these days.

[Swamp Rat]

10. Kick ASS JohnnyCougar!

:applause:

Here's a bumper sticker for ya: :D

[roguevalley]

11. bless all of you, darlings. you are the future.

[Peace Patriot]

15. A very heartening tale! Thanks for writing it and posting it!

It's amazing what a Thanksgiving dinner will do!

Somebody ought to do a study of family Thanksgiving dinners and American politics. We had this phenomenon back in the Vietnam War, too. I think the Vietnam War maybe got turned around at family dinner table gatherings.

[Peace Patriot]

16. A very heartening tale! Thanks for writing it and posting it!

It's amazing what a Thanksgiving dinner will do!

Somebody ought to do a study of family Thanksgiving dinners and American politics. We had this phenomenon back in the Vietnam War, too. I think the Vietnam War maybe got turned around at family dinner table gatherings.

Next time you talk to your uncle you should maybe tell him about Bushite Republican corporations--Diebold and ES&S--counting 80% of the vote in 2004 with 'TRADE SECRET," PROPRIETARY programming code. Any fair-minded citizen should be against this.

[patricia92243]

17. I assume all this is Rush Limbaugh "knowledge" from you uncle. n/t

[Mutley]

19. Bravo!

My family is mixed: conservatives and liberals, and while most of the conservatives have turned on Bush and the current GOP, a few haven't. But everyone managed to keep politics out of it yesterday. I was amazed!

[DemonFighterLives]

20. Way to Go Dudes!

And Welcome to DU, Bru!
The mighty Clenis has such power over them. Never mind the totally corrupt bunch installed in power.

[xchrom]

21. rockin the freeper world!

an earthquake and tsunami all rolled into one -- all three of you are to congratulated for standing your ground and being so intelligent about it.

welcome!

[skipos]

22. This is good...

"He asked what left-wing media source I got that information from, and I said from the US military, and then I asked him why he was accusing the military of lying. He didn't have a good answer."

It is one of the reasons I will watch Fox News. Republicans like to dismiss any information that comes from CNN, MSNBC as having a liberal bias, but when you site Fox News, they have to sit there and eat it. Siting info direct from the military or WH is also a good call.

[Hailtothechimp]

23. BooYah!

I know that annoying guy Cramer uses it all the time on CNBC, but before that it was an ESPN expression of doing something good, like "BOOM" was for Chris Berman. Anyway, wanted to send one out to you.

[Oceansaway]

24. Hooray !!

[BanzaiBonnie]

25. One at a time

we can take them all to the truth.

Actually, when the Aspens start to turn...

[populistdriven]

26. You should consider running for an elected office!

You'd kick serious butt in a debate!

[lonestarnot]

27. You be da man JohnnyCougar! Here's a piece of pie! and something

to wash it down!:applause: :beer: :donut: (You'll have to settle for a donut!)

[Viva_La_Revolution]

28. ahhh Grasshopper!

(in my best old-Budda-Master voice)


"you have obtained DU enlightenment. You have used it well, and I am pleased"

[Vinca]

29. Maybe you ought to check Free Republic to see if your uncle

has posted about his "moranic," liberal nephews and their commie friend.:rofl: Seriously though, good job. It's rare to get a surrender from the brain washed, Kool-aid drinking, Shrub-hugging defenders of idiocy.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

30. Wow! Very good! Impressive, indeed.

That's just fantastic! Good way to use the facts to show unthinking Freeps the TRUTH.

Happy Belated Turkey Day!

[Wetzelbill]

32. :)

that's awesome. Not that you slammed the guy or anything, but just that you know your facts and can articulate your position the right way and against anybody. Way to go!

[La Coliniere]

33. Congratulations!

Last week, at a pre-Thanksgiving family gathering, I too had the opportunity to take down a repug uncle who was visiting from Florida. I had planned on not talking politics, but dear uncle casually let go a little dig about how most of his family up north still hold such "liberal" outlooks on life and all of a sudden we're at it. I got in a few early points of undisputable truths, based on varifiable FACTS, and he backed down and avoided me for the rest of the evening. His freeper wife (who overheard our exchange but never uttered a word), also avoided me like the plague and gave me hostle glances whenever I got into her space as if to say "stay away".
Family or not, I will counter their untruthful faux lies and misconceptions where and whenever they may occur. I had a good time at the party nonetheless. I hope the three of you also enjoyed the evening.

[JohnnyCougar]

34. Yeah, we did...

no malicious feelings.

He started it, though. He started ripping on the Kennedys.

[Imagine My Surprise]

35. Good for you...in a way, these people are like Jehovah's Witnesses...

they are stuck in their "groove" and when you veer them away from their groove, they cannot respond intelligently. They become human parrots. The more I think about it, the more apt a comparison I think this is. They ARE a cult of ignorant, mindless followers (never a leader). Again, congratulations on kicking some serious Thanksgiving butt!

[Mallove Fan 71]

36. I hope this type of "intervention" took place all over the US

on Turkey Day. For the first time in 5 years' worth of holiday gatherings, I believe we have the freepers cornered and ready to concede some facts about * and his minions. $3.50/gallon gas gave us the leverage. Indictments give us momentum. The war polling data gives us a big, fat bat to bonk them over the head with. FEMA puts fear back into our corner. For the first time, they can smell America rotting from within.

Thanks for arming us with great talking points! Let's all try to achieve the clarity that made JohnnyCouger's intervention a success!

[bearfan454]

37. Superbly well done nt

[OnionPatch]

38. Good for you!

I'm hoping conversations like yours were going on all over America yesterday. :toast:

[texpatriot2004]

39. Way to go. Well done. nm

[johnaries]

40. "why are you accusing the military of lying?" BEAUTIFUL!

The Truth can be a powerful weapon when wielded skillfully.
Thank you for sharing that! Great job!
:toast:

[ernstbass]

41. Damn good job

[wryter2000]

42. Well done!

Thanks for sharing. It's especially gratifying that the rest of the family heard it.

[sakabatou]

45. Woo-hoo!

:yourock:

[hwmnbn]

46. You da man!!!.....

Thanks to you, your bro, and your roomate, the sane shall rise again. It was excellent to read all about it.

:yourock:

[LondonReign2]

47. Clearly NOT a freeper

Your uncle isn't a freeper. How do I know? Because when confronted with facts he actually listened to them; freepers simply ignore all facts go on with their original argument. They have the ability to make believe facts that don't fit their view simply don't exist.

Since your uncle actually acknowledged facts it is clear he isn't a freeper, merely uninformed and swayed by the reich wing propaganda. Congrats on making him see the light, at least temporarily. I think you have the chance to permanently bring him around if you handle him carefully, presenting him with facts that show things a light different than what he hears on Limbaugh/FOX.

[JohnnyCougar]

52. He really didn't admit to anything.

When we had him cornered, he just changed the topic, but after about an hour of doing this, he started to see the light that no matter what argument he brought up, we were handily shooting it down!

He had no choice but to give up. It's funny, though, because the whole time he was just saying "I'm just getting warmed up." But we all knew that was a lie. He gave up soon after. :-) He didn't acknowledge that we were right, he just couldn't answer our questions and gave us a confused look. :-)

[YOY]

48. I wish we would have had a token freeper at our Thanksgiving!

But we all had fun anyways!

Good work to the three of you!

"What liberal media source did you get that from?" WHAT LIBERAL MEDIA SOURCES ARE THERE DUMMY! The Daily Show? PBS?

[LSK]

49. Good job!!!

:toast:

[Evergreen Emerald]

50. That was fun to read--thanks!

We just steered clear of politics at our table.

[ginnyinWI]

51. All you have to do it ask "why" after any talking point

and their argument will crumble. Because they don't know why. ;)

[Vektor]

54. They hate being confused with the facts.

Poor Freepers. They really don't have a stump to stand on when confronted with the truth. I have to at least give him credit for giving up and letting it rest. The real hopeless ones just keep trying to defend the boy chimp, even when they are going down in flames.

There might be hope for your uncle, actually. The fact that he shut up and went and got a drink instead of keeping on with his doomed argument is a good sign. He is probably going over what you said in his head and when he is alone and no one is watching, he might actually be forced to accept the truth. Maybe he will see the light someday.

Let's hope.

[JohnnyCougar]

58. He used to be a democrat...

Until he started listening to Limbaugh 15 or so years ago. So he used to have it in him.

[Vektor]

69. Ah...there you go. He's been tainted by Limpballs.

He may be salvageable. He's just in a stupor due to the brainwashing. Poor guy.

[sellitman]

56. There are TONS of Repukes leaving Dim Son in their wake..

as they finally come to the realization they have been lied too and duped. Only the Freep-tards continue to believe the lies.

[Scout1071]

59. My freeper friend showed up yesterday and said:

"Shouldn't you be in Texas getting arrested today?" And I replied, "Shouldn't you be in DC waiting to be indicted?"

[tavalon]

76. Good one!

[BlueEyedSon]

60. Right on, JC!!!

[LadyAziz]

61. Awesome Beat down

my crazy * loving uncle didn't come for thanksgiving. Both of my parents are fundies and during the election they blamed me for brainwashing my younger sisters because they all unanimously supported Kerry (even though they are not old enough to vote) and the Democratic Party. We try not discuss politics the last time was during Hurricane Katrina, my mom had the nerve to say * was a good president and blah, blah, blah crap. But my aunt hates *,which is cool.

[Bru]

70. It seems like everyone has a freeper uncle! n/t

[ananda]

62. You didn't take him down!

He simply took in good information and could tell the difference.

I hope this is not a matter of taking people down, but rather one of giving them good information and not backing down. That works well.

Thanks.

Sue

[JohnnyCougar]

68. We did take him down...

Freepers only respond to sheer dominance. They allow their lives to be completely dominated by authoritarians like Limbaugh and Bush and Rove.

You have to talk to them like you own them. That doesn't mean insult them or disrespect their person, but just make them answer your questions instead of the other way around.

It's not like I showed my uncle disrespect...we had a nice conversation afterwards...but politics certainly never came up after that.

[Dangerously Amused]

63. **DIBS** on JohnnyCougar, his roommate from India and Bru...

...as guests for Thanksgiving dinner 2006!

And yeah, you DID take him down. Well done. You know what he's thinking to himself right now? "Damn, the kid was right. Now how do I get onto his team?"

Hopefully he will have the courage to change, and find himself lucky enough to have your support along the way.

Good on ya!

[buddysmellgood]

65. Thank you.

[fooj]

66. Truth is our most powerful weapon!

Peace.

[FizzFuzz]

67. How Cool!

You all did a great job of having the right questions. So well done

I get caught up in trying to remember details or argue but I think asking questions like you did is better. Makes people have to think. I'll try to remember to do what you guys did.

Thanks for the description :D

[rumpel]

71. You have planted a seed in your uncle's mind, the seed of truth, I hope

it grows.

:toast:

[JohnnyCougar]

72. You do that by increasing their cognitive dissonance levels.

That's the only way. They are stuck to one and only one mindset until cognitive dissonance (the phenomenon that occurs when the happenings of the world do not match up with the mental schema that frames your world) wears them down. That's why the only way to de-propagandize the freeper mind is to work and work and work at repeatedly causing cognitive dissonance. To create cognitive dissonance, you HAVE to use conservative arguments against them. Use the inconsistancies in their own propaganda to deteriorate the foundations of their views. Attack Bush on conservative terms. Quote their own sources when arguing them. Their sources are so full of lies that one lie is sure to contradict another. That is the most important thing. The key to winning an argument with a conservative is to debunk their own propaganda with their own propaganda. Ask them to explain the inconsistencies in their own point of view. Do not debate one point of view versus another. It is a selfless move. Do not spend time proving that you are right, just spend time focusing on how their sources of information are embarrassingly wrong. Take it in a step by step fashion. You can't get them to agree with your own point of view unless you have deprogrammed them from their own propaganda.

[Ladyhawk]

73. I have a job for you in the red, red foothills of Northern California. n/t

[JohnnyCougar]

78. I'll do it in exchange for a delicious thanksgiving dinner next year!

Hey, I should make myself available for contractual work over Christmas!

Everyone can pay me a dinner for the swift and through debunking of the false realities your freeper relatives live in!

I'm a grad student, so I'd do anything for food. :-)

[Ladyhawk]

80. Hehe, I'd make the freepers cook for you, too. I'd come out way ahead! nt

[leanin_green]

82. Are you talking about Placerville and the surrounding townships?

I used to live there, and your right, red as the turning oak leaves in Fall. Now I'm in Southern Utah and it's so red it's almost crimson. Makes me wistful for those foothills it's so red.

[skidrow]

74. I Belong to a Right Wing Family

And I feel your pain and your triumph. I've had to take the wingnuts in my family down a notch countless times. I think of them as inherently good people who took a very wrong turn at some point.

[FreedomAngel82]

79. Good job!!

That was a great story! Loved it! You did very well and should be proud of yourself and your friend and brother too! Cheers! :toast:

[Rainscents]

83. Thanks for sharing your story... you did great!!!

[JohnnyCougar]

84. Kick!

For all those who didn't get access to DU over the holiday weekend!

:kick: